Spheres of Power Ask Me Anything #2

[khadgar567]

Some spheres really are much more challenging than others. Weather being one of the prime examples of "how do you expand this". It is cool utility sphere that is rarely going to be usable since it is all sorts of situational. It also has the factor that lot of what you'd associate with weather magic is already covered already in its base talents. Trying to come up with 10+ weather talents I have to say I couldn't do it.

Also things you might go with for more fanciful weather manipulation like riding the winds or shaping lightning into weapon are more fields of other spheres. Same with smaller more burst applications of weather like pressure front or blasts of thunder, since they more or less invariably fall under purview of destruction.

I guess you could start experimenting with say, planar weather (overlaps warp) or other non-standard weather conditions.

can you explain planar weather with plane of earth as focus? i am realy interested in this?

[Xararion]

can you explain planar weather with plane of earth as focus? i am realy interested in this?

Whoo boy. You picked a difficult plane there in my opinion, since weather sphere normally works kinda poorly in enclosed spaces and elemental plane of earth is the mother of all enclosed spaces. But I'll give it a shot I suppose.

So what I meant with planar weather was anything that would let you mirror the environmental functions of a plane instead of mortal realm. For plane of earth which is mostly solid, it is bit difficult to give good examples since said plane basically has no weather patterns you could emulate. But if you wanted to channel the plane of earth as weather, I think best options would be something like creating wind that replaces oxygen with unbreathable gasses found deep within the plane of earth (and mines), creating a zone of dead air that suffocates. Similarly since plane of earth doesn't have sun or rain, you could make your fog/rain alteration create luminous dust (plane of earth is lit up by crystals, tiny powder of it could create fog and mist that glows). Something like that luminous dust fog could very well have adverse effects on things with sunlight sensitivity.

Of course you could also go the other way. And planar weather from plane of earth would function /better/ in dungeons, caves and buildings where outside weather doesn't affect you. For the dead air example, any natural cavern could count as severity 2 suffocation hazard for purpose of earth-wind alteration. You could also make things like forcible echoes, altering the echo and soundscape of an enclosed place to replicate echoing caverns in the pockets of air on plane of earth. In terms of effect this would give perception penalties for hearing, and if raised high enough severity might cause small amount of sonic damage every round as mere breath or shuffling of your feet thunders around you in booming echos.

That's some ideas and explanation. You gave me hard concept to start from, but hey there's ideas for you, and fleshed out I think they might work. The point is more or less this: weather sphere covers most mundane types of weather manipulation and all standard pathfinder weather effects, leaving one with kinda complete kit remaining on that concept. Weather on planes is not very well defined, but it is /weather/ and it is different, opening options and having design space to work with.

From what I think, weather sphere is /the/ sphere for large scale and powerful, but slow to flower, effects manipulating the air, water and heat of your surroundings. If you add positive and negative energy, and unnatural landscapes to what you can manipulate, you get a very versatile and different sphere. If I was making the designs, I'd say that any planar weather would have keyword of [planar] or [unnatural]. Possibly that even conjuring such weather requires at minimum 1 spellpoint, since you aren't just slowly altering your surroundings, you're twisting the weather into something it isn't meant to be.

[A.J.Gibson]

can you explain planar weather with plane of earth as focus? i am realy interested in this?

Meteor swarm? Cosmic weather is one of the ideas that has been discussed for weather, though I don't know if Jeff intends to use it or not.

[Xararion]

Ah, good to know that someone has in fact claimed the weather book. From earlier I was under the impression nobody had picked it up.

Meteor swarms couldn't happen on the plane of earth since it's closed off. It's essentially cavern system. Meteor swarms themselves could be treated as a unnatural weather pattern though, so that much remains true.

[Dromuthra]

Hey, so how would the Soul Eidolon of a Mirrored Soul (new CotS summoner archetype) work if the caster was a telekinesis specialist? Could they both be concentrating on dancing Blade effects (cast in separate rounds) and get the full number of attacks? The ability doesn't seem to prevent that.

[stack]

Hey, so how would the Soul Eidolon of a Mirrored Soul (new CotS summoner archetype) work if the caster was a telekinesis specialist? Could they both be concentrating on dancing Blade effects (cast in separate rounds) and get the full number of attacks? The ability doesn't seem to prevent that.

I believe you are correct that nothing prevents them concentrating separately. Not any different from other companions doing the same thing aside from easier caster level scaling

[Sam C.]

Vivomancer's Handbook

Q 406: To be clear: since Disruption is an application of the cure ability (not the conclusion I drew while reading it), can it be used in conjunction with talents such as Restorative Cure (to apply Affliction as well) and Mass Healing, and do targets get a Will save for half damage?

[A.J.Gibson]

Vivomancer's Handbook

Q 406: To be clear: since Disruption is an application of the cure ability (not the conclusion I drew while reading it), can it be used in conjunction with talents such as Restorative Cure (to apply Affliction as well) and Mass Healing, and do targets get a Will save for half damage?

A406: I think I backed off on the 'Disruption is cure' idea in playtest, now that I think about it, because of this sort of thing. Disruption merely uses cure's range, it doesn't stack with other cure effects. It doesn't allow a Will save either. Disruption is supposed to be a positive energy effect and is supposed to benefit from alabaster gloves.

Looks like it's time to start writing errata for Life.

[kkplx]

Q 407

Conjuration sphere forms:

Biped has 2 legs and 2 arms.
Quadruped has 4 legs.

One of my player is of the opinion that because it is not explicitly stated otherwise, the quadruped should be able to manipulate objects as if with hands, if an appropriate animal is imitated - is this in any way true and what citation supports this interpretation?

[stack]

Q 407

Conjuration sphere forms:

Biped has 2 legs and 2 arms.
Quadruped has 4 legs.

One of my player is of the opinion that because it is not explicitly stated otherwise, the quadruped should be able to manipulate objects as if with hands, if an appropriate animal is imitated - is this in any way true and what citation supports this interpretation?

I have to defer to Adam as the ultimate source of RAI on this, but I am pretty sure quadruped means 'no hands' unless you add extra limbs to get arms. I am struggling to think of an animal that would provide a counterpoint, but all I come up with is knuckle walking primates, which I would class as bipeds for base form.

If it helps, there is a table for alteration forms in the handbook that specifies which can supply somatic components by default. If needed I can add one to the conjuration handbook before it comes out.

Edit - I really can't imagine this being anything other than a player being deliberately obtuse.

[Mithril Leaf]

Q 408:
Has anyone begun any writing for the Death handbook yet? I'm really looking forward to some Necromancer shenanigans.

[stack]

Q 408:
Has anyone begun any writing for the Death handbook yet? I'm really looking forward to some Necromancer shenanigans.

It has had a significant amount written for some time. I do not know when the author plans to call it playtest ready.

[Mithril Leaf]

Q 409:
Now that the Troubadour is out this seems like it will become more common, what happens to Death sphere minions when you lose talents that would increase the cap on number of raised undead? For example, if you were a level 6 Troubadour with a Mentor Persona, taking two instances of Greater Reanimate with your Quirks while having standard permanent undead from your proper Talents (Let's pretend that we took Death with that Life Sphere +2 CL trait). Assuming no other caster level boosts or anything, what would your control cap for undead when in or out of that form, and what happens if you switch?

[Xararion]

Good question actually. Depends if the caster level alteration from wearing a role counts as permanent or temporary bonus. If it's temporary, your number of servitors wouldn't rise at all between the forms, but they would get very large buff since temporary buffs don't let you actually have more minions or stronger companion from conjuration. I honestly can't tell which one it is supposed to be, though for sake of "easier math", I'd be likely going to guess that it acts as temporary increase. Otherwise a conjuring troubadour would have to constantly keep 2 sheets for his companion(s), and death sphere using troubadour would fluctuate a fair bit in the numbers.

Edit with questions

Q405.a
Pretty sure this has been asked but there's too many pages to look for. If you crit with a weapon attack that is carrying energy weapon destructive blast, does the blast damage comes as a critical too, or is it just a rider effect?

Q405.b
Close to this vein. How would you use the champions feat "Spell attack" on destruction sphere. This lets you treat the attack you're making as attack action, but for all intents and purposes it has the same requirements as "improved energy blade" that lets you cast as swift, and then do an attack action still carrying the destructive blast effect. I am going to assume you can't multiply the damage from the blast with vital strike in this instance (that'd be hilarious mind, but anything that sounds that hilarious is unlikely to be a thing). You do save a swift action I suppose, but that seems fairly minor. Mind, it does work with cryptic strike which as of writing doesn't have equivalent to improved energy blade.

Q405.c
Last is the actual question these former ones were leading to. How do these interact with prodigy finishers? I am going to assume they largely don't personally. So you can't do a big critical damage energy blade with executioner finisher. I suppose you could slip a destructive blast into full powered doombringer (replacing the standard action attack action with standard action spell attack action). Any opinions and clarifications on the synergies of these things. Always looking to know how things work in my new favourite class.

[decamonos]

In the Creator's Handbook the Expanded Materials: Acidic Creation talent mentions applying an acid coating to a solid object, and in a separate line of text calls out the acid damage not multiplying for hardness or distance of falling objects. Does this mean when you create an object it can be created with the coating already on it as a means of increasing damage?

What about with Expanded Materials: Plasma Production, would you, or should you, be able to create items already on fire, or already imbued with an electrical charge?

And if you have Expanded Materials: Classic Substances, what if you created ice? Does that do any cold damage in addition to the falling damage?

[Keante]

I have a balance concern with Personal Refinement ability of the Whitesmith archetype for the Armorist.

The normal limiter on the number of enhancements placed on weapons and armor is the requirement of concentration or spell point cost. If you really need to make a weapon really powerful for a big moment, you can blow all your spell points on multiple enhancements that will last a minute per caster level, but then you're done for the day.

Personal Refinement removes that limitation (for the caster's own equipment only). At 3rd level I could use enhance equipment followed by energy weapon four ways and deadly weapon. I'd have a +2 keen, flaming, shocking, frost, corrosive weapon that can last all day. If it gets dispelled, just take 6 rounds (36 seconds?) to re-cast them all and they're back all day again at no cost of spell points.

A +7 equivalent weapon seems a bit too much at 3rd level. Perhaps I should only be able to maintain one enhancement for free per item? =)

[Mithril Leaf]

I have a balance concern with Personal Refinement ability of the Whitesmith archetype for the Armorist.

The normal limiter on the number of enhancements placed on weapons and armor is the requirement of concentration or spell point cost. If you really need to make a weapon really powerful for a big moment, you can blow all your spell points on multiple enhancements that will last a minute per caster level, but then you're done for the day.

Personal Refinement removes that limitation (for the caster's own equipment only). At 3rd level I could use enhance equipment followed by energy weapon four ways and deadly weapon. I'd have a +2 keen, flaming, shocking, frost, corrosive weapon that can last all day. If it gets dispelled, just take 6 rounds (36 seconds?) to re-cast them all and they're back all day again at no cost of spell points.

A +7 equivalent weapon seems a bit too much at 3rd level. Perhaps I should only be able to maintain one enhancement for free per item? =)

I mean, that is the whole entire 100% shtick of the Whitesmith. You have described not only it's ability set but also how to optimize it. It would suck pretty bad with that change.

[stack]

Also multiple energy weapon castings won't stack. Don't want to search while on my phone, but it has been discussed in this thread previously.

[Sam C.]

A354: Rules on combining magical effects.

By RAW, only the latest Elemental Weapon will be active. The others will still technically exist, but won't be useful unless the currently active one gets dispelled or something.

Same Effect with Differing Results
The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

As a side note, this ruling also affects the Cripple Movement, Increase Speed, Mental Enhancement, Physical Enhancement, Staunch Resistance, Steal Senses, Still Tongue, and Supply Vigor talents of the Enhancement Sphere, as well as the Armored Magic and Energy Resistance talents of the Protection Sphere. There may be others. One could technically also argue that any given target may only be the target of a single enhance effect at a time, since the various (enhance) talents technically only provide additional options for use with the enhance ability (which could be considered to be a single "spell"). This would also apply to things like aegis and sense.

[AlienFromBeyond]

As a side note, this ruling also affects the Enhancement Sphere, as well as the Armored Magic talent of the Protection Sphere. One could technically also argue that any given target may only be the target of a single enhance effect at a time, since the various (enhance) talents technically only provide additional options for use with the enhance ability (which could be considered to be a single "spell"). This would also apply to things like aegis and sense.

Ah yes, the rule that was even in 3.5 that most people completely missed, forgot, or ignored because of how nonsensical it was, case in point being the argument you bring up about how many spheres do their effects and how talents expand upon it.

[EldritchWeaver]

Ah yes, the rule that was even in 3.5 that most people completely missed, forgot, or ignored because of how nonsensical it was, case in point being the argument you bring up about how many spheres do their effects and how talents expand upon it.

I agree that this limits the use of talents. IMO, this rule indeed nonsensical. Consider splitting talents into their separate effects. Suddenly they stack again. I would propose to employ another general exception to PF magic (like with concentration no longer stopping you from casting another spell). It doesn't even ignore the PF rule completely, since it does state "usually".

[AmberVael]

Consider splitting talents into their separate effects.

This is the interpretation I use. Spheres is quite different from traditional spellcasting, and it is more sensible to consider different talents under the same ability (that is, different enhancements or senses or the like) to be different effects than the same effect. On the other hand, a single talent with multiple options (like energy weapon, mental enhancement, or physical enhancement) would be considered the same effect and couldn't stack with other versions of itself. I wouldn't call it a hard and fast rule though, given how some talents add completely different effects, while others are just minor adjustments. I'd play it by ear.

[kkplx]

Ah yes, the rule that was even in 3.5 that most people completely missed, forgot, or ignored because of how nonsensical it was, case in point being the argument you bring up about how many spheres do their effects and how talents expand upon it.

Except that in 3.5 you can explicitly have "Resist Energy" for each of the types active on you AT THE SAME TIME.

I don't see how it's different in PF, or how multiple applications of energy damage on a weapon would not work.

[EldritchWeaver]

This is the interpretation I use. Spheres is quite different from traditional spellcasting, and it is more sensible to consider different talents under the same ability (that is, different enhancements or senses or the like) to be different effects than the same effect. On the other hand, a single talent with multiple options (like energy weapon, mental enhancement, or physical enhancement) would be considered the same effect and couldn't stack with other versions of itself. I wouldn't call it a hard and fast rule though, given how some talents add completely different effects, while others are just minor adjustments. I'd play it by ear.

I actually meant with "splitting talents" not that the talents in a sphere are considered separate effects (as I didn't understand that indeed the base spheres would count as base spell according to that PF rule, but thought that the line is drawn for each talent), but i.e. Armored Magic, which grants both armor and shield bonus into two talents, one which grants armor bonus and one which grants shield bonus. That way (and with my interpretation) you still would be able to get both AC buffs, which shows that this rule doesn't really work in the first place.

Except that in 3.5 you can explicitly have "Resist Energy" for each of the types active on you AT THE SAME TIME.

I don't see how it's different in PF, or how multiple applications of energy damage on a weapon would not work.

While further splitting talents makes them too weak to be taken, this strategy works better with vancian magic, where weakening of a spell reduces also the spell level. Let's say that instead choosing a particular energy type when casting, the type of energy is fixed. So for example, we would have a resist fire spell at level 1. Repeat that for all energy types. Then you suddenly can cast not only resist energy for all energy types in a way which stacks, but need only level 1 slots, too.

All in all, this rule in its original context can be circumvented and the workaround may have a front-up cost, but in the end is cheaper than just ignoring the rule in the first place. Which is a good indicator, how stupid it is in the first place. So I advocate for its complete removal, as you do end up paying for the individual castings anyway, so this isn't free money anyway.

[Nyaa]

Alteration: "2 claw attacks" trait from blank form requires arms. Animalistic transformation form has 4 legs. Does it mean it can't be used to make a tiger with bite/claw/claw?

[stack]

Alteration: "2 claw attacks" trait from blank form requires arms. Animalistic transformation form has 4 legs. Does it mean it can't be used to make a tiger with bite/claw/claw?

Have to leave this one for Adam; seems to me that it ought to have an exception allowing for use on legs in some cases, similar to the summoner's eidolon for which the claws evolution states "This evolution can only be applied to the limbs (legs) evolution once".

[Kitsuneymg]

I have to defer to Adam as the ultimate source of RAI on this, but I am pretty sure quadruped means 'no hands' unless you add extra limbs to get arms. I am struggling to think of an animal that would provide a counterpoint, but all I come up with is knuckle walking primates, which I would class as bipeds for base form.

If it helps, there is a table for alteration forms in the handbook that specifies which can supply somatic components by default. If needed I can add one to the conjuration handbook before it comes out.

Edit - I really can't imagine this being anything other than a player being deliberately obtuse.

Raccon, chameleon, wingless griffons.

[A.J.Gibson]

Adam Meyers asked someone to post about the 'splitting talents' issue. He said the following in the SoP handbook writer's Skype chat:

"Protection was written under the assumption that each different effect was a different aegis, so Both armored aegises would stack, for what that’s worth"

Then about Energy Resistance:

"That too I guess, unless someone had a balance concern that would forbid it?"

(No one objected)

[AlienFromBeyond]

Adam Meyers asked someone to post about the 'splitting talents' issue. He said the following in the SoP handbook writer's Skype chat:

"Protection was written under the assumption that each different effect was a different aegis, so Both armored aegises would stack, for what that’s worth"

Then about Energy Resistance:

"That too I guess, unless someone had a balance concern that would forbid it?"

(No one objected)

Can this be considered a general ruling for SoP as a whole? So SoP can use multiple Physical Enhancements to affect all physical stats (if they're okay with the costs of casting 3 times) just like a vancian caster could use Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, and Cat's Grace all on the same person with no issues? That's only one example, but I think it would be for the best if this becomes standard SoP behavior all around.

[Mehangel]

Can this be considered a general ruling for SoP as a whole? So SoP can use multiple Physical Enhancements to affect all physical stats (if they're okay with the costs of casting 3 times) just like a vancian caster could use Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, and Cat's Grace all on the same person with no issues? That's only one example, but I think it would be for the best if this becomes standard SoP behavior all around.

Even if it wasn't a general ruling (i.e. not usable with the Enhancement sphere), the Enhancer's Handbook included a talent called Dual Enhancement, which allows for multiple uses of the same talent on a target.