Which Star Wars RPG system?

[Foxtrot1138]

I'm an inexperienced GM. Lifelong Star Wars nerd, but never played any of the Star Wars systems. I think my friends would be receptive to trying it but can't decide which to get and learn. From what I read I think I'd enjoy each type for different reasons so I'm not even looking for "which is more fun". Instead I have two parts to my question: Which system is SIMPLER to run and play, and which systems are easier to GET STARTED(buying necessary rules, accessories, etc)?
I've heard great things about West End Games using D6, Saga d20, and Edge of the Empire. I'm interested to know which of these makes for simpler game play since in the past my groups have gotten very bogged down with rules for D&D 3.5/Pathfinder. I like making campaigns and stories but get stuck reading through rules way too much as I don't have enough experience to house-rule things on the fly. Saga sounds very similar to D&D systems but will I have the same problems trudging through rules the whole time?
Edge of the Empire sounds like a fun scoundrels and criminals centered game but did I read you need to buy 3 base games to get all the class? Any of these systems cheaper/require less money to play effectively?
Others said WEG with "D6" was their favorite but does that require modifying rules and more complex stuff I'd like to avoid?
Thanks for any assistance or experience with these.

[Max_Killjoy]

For simplicity and speed, WEGd6. But, you'd have to do some digging for products.

For availability of products, FFG's new line. But, not at all intuitive or smooth.

[The Glyphstone]

From what I understand of FFG's line, you only 'need' to buy the book for the game you want to play, because they're more like 3 separate games with a single unified core mechanic system.

Edge of the Empire is about being smugglers, renegades, and general misfits on the fringes of society.

Age of Rebellion is about being a soldier or pilot for the Rebel Alliance, directly battling the Empire.

Force and Destiny is about being a force-sensitive and inheriting the legacy of the Jedi while the Empire tries to hunt and kill you.

Since they share a core system, you can import races/careers from one game into the others, but it's not at all mandatory, and sometimes needs some adjustments to fit properly.

[CharonsHelper]

I can't weigh in on the other two - but Saga Edition is good. It's obviously derived from 3.5 so that might be an issue, but it's a good bit simpler and smoother. They streamlined skills, force use is far simpler than spell-casting, and it probably has the best balance of any d20 system I've ever seen.

(d6 & Revised d20 very obviously have Jedi be more powerful than characters who aren't force sensitive. Saga Edition resolved Jedi being potent in the fluff where you aren't a full Jedi knight until level 8ish - before that someone with the Jedi class is just a padawan. So basically all Jedi are high level in a PC class while that's very rare for non-Jedi.)

[Mechalich]

SAGA is similar to D&D in many ways, but it is simplified to a degree - it is absolutely much less complicated than Star Wars d20 - and highly accessible to those experienced with D&D. In terms of expense, the FFG license is the one currently in print, so it's probably going to be the cheapest, ultimately.

One thing to keep in mind with Star Wars games is that they related to the source material in different ways, which matters for what you wish to run. WEG is old, and doesn't interact well with the Prequel or KOTOR timelines and such things. SAGA is newer, but it integrated a whole lot of material that is now Legends continuity into its system, so if you aren't big into the EU its probably not as good of a fit.

[Anonymouswizard]

One thing to note about EotE/AoE/F&D is that you also have to buy the special dice of you want the game to run smoothly (you don't strictly need them, but you'd be comparing each die to a chart otherwise, massively slowing down the game). I should also mention that this isn't like Fate's '£13 for more dice than you need', depending on characters you might have to buy two to three packs just to generate a PC's starting pool (is very easy for a droid to begin with a 5 in their most important stat).

That isn't too say the FFG games can't be fun or run smoothly, it's just an extra barrier to entry.

[JAL_1138]

WEG d6 is hard to find legally, although there's a well-known fan-site that shall remain nameless here hosting pdfs of the whole thing (which I'm required to say should never be used because piracy is bad, even for out-of-print systems with inactive licenses that are only available otherwise as used books). WEG currently has a generic system called D6 Space available on DriveThruRPG that's basically the same rules with the Star Wars names redacted after they lost the license, that could easily be converted to run a Star Wars game.

If you can get ahold of the actual WEG Star Wars (rather than trying to convert D6 Space, which is good but as a generic system doesn't have the amazing Star Wars content WEG produced), I'd definitely recommend it. It's a fantastically versatile, streamlined, quick system that has some truly great writing and supplements.

[Foxtrot1138]

So, Edge of the Empire is excellent but has custom dice. Saga is similar to 3.5 but streamlined. And WEG is a simple system also really loved.

If I find WEG, Star Wars second edition for example, that's all I need for it?

[Thrudd]

So, Edge of the Empire is excellent but has custom dice. Saga is similar to 3.5 but streamlined. And WEG is a simple system also really loved.

If I find WEG, Star Wars second edition for example, that's all I need for it?

Yes, that's all you need. If you manage to find the Pirates and Privateers supplement, that's great stuff for a smuggler/outlaws style game with lots of extra ships and weapons. Also Alien Encounters was a late book they put out that is basically every alien race you can think of or would ever want (before prequels, remember).

[Hopeless]

Right;
1) d6 Star Wars
There's a downloadable version of the d6 rules which was free the last time I checked, but the Star wars version was released in at least two separate editions I'd recommend the revised as that's just one book the other required two eventually as long as you don't mind making up your own games you shouldn't have any problems!
2) Star Wars d20 if you could find a copy they're OK I'd recommend checking out the Order 66 podcast archive although when I found out about them they were dealing with Saga Edition.
3) Saga Edition was expensive when it first come out probably even more so now!
4) The FFG has 3 core books one for the underworld (edge of the empire), the rebellion (Age of Rebellion) or Force User (Force & Destiny) the major plus is that each has a beginner game set ideal to teach you the basics, pre-generated characters, a set of those dice they mentioned, downloadable extra adventure and characters along with a forum that's just itching to answer any questions you have!

I'd recommend picking up the beginner set for the book you fancy running and even if you end up picking up the Age of Rebellion core book that game will still prove useful!

Also be careful about the various supplements as they tend to go out of stock often and occasionally you find them being sold for inflated prices!

The real question is what would you like to run?

[Mando Knight]

SAGA is newer, but it integrated a whole lot of material that is now Legends continuity into its system, so if you aren't big into the EU its probably not as good of a fit.

All of them did that. WEG practically laid the foundations for Legends by adding in a lot of details not covered by the films.

[Mutazoia]

D6holocron.com has all the old WEG Star Wars stuff archived. Mod's have posted that info, so it shouldn't be a problem to list it here. It's a fast system, east to learn, easy to play, and has a ton of material available. There were 3 versions...I recommend either the original (1st) edition, or the Revised and Expanded (3rd) editions.

The original edition didn't have things like specializations or the wild dice (exploding dice), and honestly, the game functioned quite well with out them. Third edition took the stuff introduced in the 2nd edition (such as the above mentioned wild dice and specializations) and cleaned it up and patched some holes.

Basically, if you are looking to run a game with the cinematic feel of the movies, head over to the the above mentioned website and fun the WEG D6 version.

[Max_Killjoy]

All of them did that. WEG practically laid the foundations for Legends by adding in a lot of details not covered by the films.

No doubt. Many of the species whose names we take for granted were never named by Lucas, that wasn't his style*. WEG named those species.


( * Lucas really only ever cared about what looked the most impressive on screen at that moment, he really wasn't much of a worldbuilder. )

[RedWarlock]

Having been in a couple of the FFG games (one after the other), I have to say.. they're alright. We did an Edge EotE game for about 6-8 months, then reset from start as a F&D game that is just hitting the power-crescendo (I've now killed a couple rancor almost single-handedly, though I'm the beast-slaying pseudo-ranger force-user class.)

There are a couple of factors I really like, and a few that are less well-thought out. Destiny points (light side/dark side tokens that flip back and forth, your standard Hero/Fate/Action points) serving as a visual bar was an interesting mechanic, though their usage could have been a little more pushed. IMO, they felt underutilized by non-jedi, it was too easy to just forget they existed. The spec trees feel semi-random, would've preferred a more organized prerequisite set or something, though it wasn't the end of the world. Some of the force powers in F&D chain upward into seemingly-broken pretty quick. (I happened to pick up the Sense power, because we were each going for a different powerset, and somehow happened into the tree that makes you a mega-tank with the same dice-boosts as the big boss-monster creatures/NPCs get. Between that and the endurance boosts from the ranger-like paths, I'm a tank, now.)

I owned the d20 Star Wars (pre-Saga Edition), and while I liked the look of it, I was never able to get anyone to play, and the 3.5-equivalent update was poorly handled, IMO. SE is as much proto-4e as post-3e. I know the condition tracks are something a LOT of people loved at the time, but weren't translated into 4e in any way. Would have to go back over them some time.

[JAL_1138]

No doubt. Many of the species whose names we take for granted were never named by Lucas, that wasn't his style*. WEG named those species.


( * Lucas really only ever cared about what looked the most impressive on screen at that moment, he really wasn't much of a worldbuilder. )

It goes even further than that--Lucasarts sent a bunch of WEG supplements to Timothy Zahn to use as (required) reference material; while Zahn wasn't the first EU writer (Alan Dean Foster and a few others beat him to it by decades, before all the films had even released), his Thrawn Trilogy in the early '90s was what really made it popular, and a huge amount of the worldbuilding in it (and in subsequent EU novels by other authors) is literally drawn straight from WEG D6 splatbooks.

[Knaight]

It goes even further than that--Lucasarts sent a bunch of WEG supplements to Timothy Zahn to use as (required) reference material; while Zahn wasn't the first EU writer (Alan Dean Foster and a few others beat him to it by decades, before all the films had even released), his Thrawn Trilogy in the early '90s was what really made it popular, and a huge amount of the worldbuilding in it (and in subsequent EU novels by other authors) is literally drawn straight from WEG D6 splatbooks.

I realize that Alan Dean Foster is technically an EU writer, but that's kind of an unfair label - it's a tiny part of a bigger career. He also wrote original novels that weren't glorified fanfiction.

[Max_Killjoy]

Having been in a couple of the FFG games (one after the other), I have to say.. they're alright. We did an Edge EotE game for about 6-8 months, then reset from start as a F&D game that is just hitting the power-crescendo (I've now killed a couple rancor almost single-handedly, though I'm the beast-slaying pseudo-ranger force-user class.)

There are a couple of factors I really like, and a few that are less well-thought out. Destiny points (light side/dark side tokens that flip back and forth, your standard Hero/Fate/Action points) serving as a visual bar was an interesting mechanic, though their usage could have been a little more pushed. IMO, they felt underutilized by non-jedi, it was too easy to just forget they existed. The spec trees feel semi-random, would've preferred a more organized prerequisite set or something, though it wasn't the end of the world. Some of the force powers in F&D chain upward into seemingly-broken pretty quick. (I happened to pick up the Sense power, because we were each going for a different powerset, and somehow happened into the tree that makes you a mega-tank with the same dice-boosts as the big boss-monster creatures/NPCs get. Between that and the endurance boosts from the ranger-like paths, I'm a tank, now.)

Well, FFG's SW game is an odd combination of narrative assumption -- with each set of rolls controlling large chunks of the action and a lot of what I'd call "inane haggling" between the GM and players before and after each roll -- and piling on a plethora of "cool" abilities that interact with the "narrative" focus.

Major villain NPCs, for example, get a "cool talent" that turns their underlings into ablative armor. Without special PC "cool talents" to counteract that, you literally can't injure the major villain before you go through most of his minions, because it just wouldn't be "genre appropriate" to do so.

The "cool abilities" get so convoluted that their designers have to issue official rulings about how the different "cool abilities" stack or interact or counter each other.


The deeper one digs, the more contrived and ridiculous the whole thing gets.

It goes even further than that--Lucasarts sent a bunch of WEG supplements to Timothy Zahn to use as (required) reference material; while Zahn wasn't the first EU writer ... his Thrawn Trilogy in the early '90s was what really made it popular, and a huge amount of the worldbuilding in it (and in subsequent EU novels by other authors) is literally drawn straight from WEG D6 splatbooks.

Yeap.

[RedWarlock]

Well, FFG's SW game is an odd combination of narrative assumption -- with each set of rolls controlling large chunks of the action and a lot of what I'd call "inane haggling" between the GM and players before and after each roll -- and piling on a plethora of "cool" abilities that interact with the "narrative" focus.

Really? Maybe it's because I never really sat down and read the book, but our game doesn't do much if any haggling before/after rolls. At most it's "what's the difficulty?", "I've got this ability that negates black dice on X checks, if you want to throw those in...", and "oh, you got three advantages, do you want to link or critical?"

Edit: But then, we play combats pretty much by the numbers, not exactly descriptively.

Major villain NPCs, for example, get a "cool talent" that turns their underlings into ablative armor. Without special PC "cool talents" to counteract that, you literally can't injure the major villain before you go through most of his minions, because it just wouldn't be "genre appropriate" to do so.

The "cool abilities" get so convoluted that their designers have to issue official rulings about how the different "cool abilities" stack or interact or counter each other.

Never ran into that, but maybe our GM isn't running those kinds of abilities on his boss NPCs. Most of the time it's just the upgrades on the difficulty dice for checks and sometimes some armor, giving black dice.

[Max_Killjoy]

Really? Maybe it's because I never really sat down and read the book, but our game doesn't do much if any haggling before/after rolls. At most it's "what's the difficulty?", "I've got this ability that negates black dice on X checks, if you want to throw those in...", and "oh, you got three advantages, do you want to link or critical?"

Edit: But then, we play combats pretty much by the numbers, not exactly descriptively.


Never ran into that, but maybe our GM isn't running those kinds of abilities on his boss NPCs. Most of the time it's just the upgrades on the difficulty dice for checks and sometimes some armor, giving black dice.

I've skimmed F&D, but a lot of this comes from reading their official forums, and goodness those players and GMs seem to get up to a lot of pre-roll and post-roll "haggling" based on what's going on in the scene, and from everything they're saying, the rolls don't represent single actions, but rather whole chunks of the scene.

These are all people who seem to adore the game. And they describe a game that's full of narrative and mechanical haggling.

Another example would be the "cool talent" that lets a character of a certain career tree pull an item out of their backside. Literally, if they have this talent, they can pull whatever they could be "justifiably" be carrying in their tools and stuff, out of what amounts to thin air. Because hey, of course it's "genre appropriate" for the character to just happen to have that tool along. It's a rules-encoded arse-pull.

[RedWarlock]

I've skimmed F&D, but a lot of this comes from reading their official forums, and goodness those players and GMs seem to get up to a lot of pre-roll and post-roll "haggling" based on what's going on in the scene, and from everything they're saying, the rolls don't represent single actions, but rather whole chunks of the scene.

These are all people who seem to adore the game. And they describe a game that's full of narrative and mechanical haggling.

Another example would be the "cool talent" that lets a character of a certain career tree pull an item out of their backside. Literally, if they have this talent, they can pull whatever they could be "justifiably" be carrying in their tools and stuff, out of what amounts to thin air. Because hey, of course it's "genre appropriate" for the character to just happen to have that tool along. It's a rules-encoded arse-pull.

Well, I can see some item-dependence built into it. It's something I don't agree with (kind of like how some of the Hunter or Rogue's abilities in WoW are special ammunition or not-physically-existing thrown daggers) but that's more from a D&D standpoint where we're used to having en extensive equipment list to do those kind of tricks. Integrating them into a specific skill tree feels off, but it's just different from what we're used to.

The part of it that really bugged me was that for EotE, the divisions were prioritized wrong, IMO. 'Smuggler' is a base class, with 'scoundrel' as a path under it. That's what I had to use for a character I wanted to play that was a Dug mobster-in-exile, because there wasn't anything else even remotely close, and it kept throwing in, like you say, item-based features that throw me off, like smuggler's holds in the ship, when I have no interest in smuggling anything, I'm trying to be a sneaky gunner, dangit!

[JAL_1138]

I realize that Alan Dean Foster is technically an EU writer, but that's kind of an unfair label - it's a tiny part of a bigger career. He also wrote original novels that weren't glorified fanfiction.

I intended "EU writer" in my post to mean "author who wrote at least one work of fiction for the EU," with no other connotation, not "writer whose body of work consists solely, primarily, or most-noteworthily* of EU material." There's a considerable difference in meaning there, and I hadn't even thought of the second interpretation when I posted.

*(Is "noteworthily" even a word? I dunno.)

[Fri]

What you call "inane haggling" is just the standard of more narrative based system though, which I guess feels weird for people who are used to crunchier and adversarial type of gaming? Like I'm pretty sure most if not all narativish system enable you to mention that you always have an item in your backpack or a certain fact about the surrounding is true, whether its by certain talent, once per encounter, or using fate point. Like, its just standard use in Fate Core to use Fate point to declare a fact you just made out is true, which of course must be reasonable and agreed by the gm (aka inane haggling).

[Mutazoia]

What you call "inane haggling" is just the standard of more narrative based system though, which I guess feels weird for people who are used to crunchier and adversarial type of gaming? Like I'm pretty sure most if not all narativish system enable you to mention that you always have an item in your backpack or a certain fact about the surrounding is true, whether its by certain talent, once per encounter, or using fate point. Like, its just standard use in Fate Core to use Fate point to declare a fact you just made out is true, which of course must be reasonable and agreed by the gm (aka inane haggling).

I've played many a narrative based system, and haven't had to deal with "inane haggling". I've played Amber Diceless for years, and never was an inane haggle to be seen.

[Fri]

I've played many a narrative based system, and haven't had to deal with "inane haggling". I've played Amber Diceless for years, and never was an inane haggle to be seen.

Exactly my point.

[Max_Killjoy]

What you call "inane haggling" is just the standard of more narrative based system though, which I guess feels weird for people who are used to crunchier and adversarial type of gaming? Like I'm pretty sure most if not all narativish system enable you to mention that you always have an item in your backpack or a certain fact about the surrounding is true, whether its by certain talent, once per encounter, or using fate point. Like, its just standard use in Fate Core to use Fate point to declare a fact you just made out is true, which of course must be reasonable and agreed by the gm (aka inane haggling).

I find it interesting that the presumptive "opposite" of a narrative system is "adversarial" and "crunchy".

Once you start digging FFG SW is pretty damn crunchy, and they're trying very hard to be narrative. "Adversarial" is about the group dynamic far more than it's about the specific system.

Well, I can see some item-dependence built into it. It's something I don't agree with (kind of like how some of the Hunter or Rogue's abilities in WoW are special ammunition or not-physically-existing thrown daggers) but that's more from a D&D standpoint where we're used to having en extensive equipment list to do those kind of tricks. Integrating them into a specific skill tree feels off, but it's just different from what we're used to.

The part of it that really bugged me was that for EotE, the divisions were prioritized wrong, IMO. 'Smuggler' is a base class, with 'scoundrel' as a path under it. That's what I had to use for a character I wanted to play that was a Dug mobster-in-exile, because there wasn't anything else even remotely close, and it kept throwing in, like you say, item-based features that throw me off, like smuggler's holds in the ship, when I have no interest in smuggling anything, I'm trying to be a sneaky gunner, dangit!

Well, FFG is trying to have everything at once -- they're trying to "emulate genre", pile on the "cool talents", and maintain a strict notion of balance. Their "solution" is character classes highly structured career trees and significant costs for trying to go outside those predefined archetypes.

[Fri]

I find it interesting that the presumptive "opposite" of a narrative system is "adversarial" and "crunchy".

Once you start digging FFG SW is pretty damn crunchy, and they're trying very hard to be narrative. "Adversarial" is about the group dynamic far more than it's about the specific system.

Point. Might need to confirm that I didn't meant to be condescending to those term at all. And I already know that star wars ffg is pretty crunchy, which is also why I really like it. It's still kinda narrative and not bogged in numbers, but also still scratch my itch to shop for effective equipments and feats. I mainly use "adversarial" because I assume adversarial group would be the one who get more bogged in debating about what can and can not be in a utility belt and such. A more narrative dm and player would be just. "Sure, makes sense you have a lockpick in your utility belt." or "nah, it doesn't makes sense if you have grenade in your utility belt." and the player wouldn't debate too much.


By the way, pretty sure it can be made less narrative and much less confusing for new group by just using the provided table of advantage and disadvantage provided in the book. And also actually all "advanced classes" specialization for later are branched exactly into crunchy and narrative. Like, engineer could pick between two specialization: once per session ability to attempt to macgyver any item that that have 5 or less rarity with 2 destiny point that will last one encounter, and once per session ability to reroll any 2 dice with 2 destiny point. They specifically mention "first ability if you feel like a more storytelling ability, second ability if you want a more straightforward mechanical ability."

[KillingAScarab]

D6holocron.com has all the old WEG Star Wars stuff archived. Mod's have posted that info, so it shouldn't be a problem to list it here. It's a fast system, east to learn, easy to play, and has a ton of material available. There were 3 versions...I recommend either the original (1st) edition, or the Revised and Expanded (3rd) editions.

"Revised and Expanded" was used to note a rules update to a given edition was included. I own a copy of 2nd edtion Revised and Expanded; the introduction notes that the rules update would have also been made available through sending a SASE and 0.64 USD or through the Official Star Wars Adventure Journal.

On that note, I think it is worth mentioning that Star Wars d20 had two magazines in which supplemental material was published for it. Wizards of the Coast published it in Star Wars Gamer, but also in Polyhedron. There was some good adaptations of later EU content in those, such as the Jensaarai prestige class.

If you like some of the older EU material, West End Games did sourcebooks for the Jedi Praxeum and the Dark Empire. However, I had the impression that those materials assume you're playing a human character. d20 seemed more open to playing alien species to me, since it had a species guide.

[Max_Killjoy]

"Revised and Expanded" was used to note a rules update to a given edition was included. I own a copy of 2nd edtion Revised and Expanded; the introduction notes that the rules update would have also been made available through sending a SASE and 0.64 USD or through the Official Star Wars Adventure Journal.

On that note, I think it is worth mentioning that Star Wars d20 had two magazines in which supplemental material was published for it. Wizards of the Coast published it in Star Wars Gamer, but also in Polyhedron. There was some good adaptations of later EU content in those, such as the Jensaarai prestige class.

If you like some of the older EU material, West End Games did sourcebooks for the Jedi Praxeum and the Dark Empire. However, I had the impression that those materials assume you're playing a human character. d20 seemed more open to playing alien species to me, since it had a species guide.

Looking at the bookshelf behind me... I'm pretty sure that WEG published plenty of non-human species.

[Mutazoia]

Looking at the bookshelf behind me... I'm pretty sure that WEG published plenty of non-human species.

You would be right (you know you are). Most notably Galaxy Guides 4 (Alien Races) and 12 (Aliens, Enemies and Allies). And then there were the the 3 "Planets of the Galaxy" splats that included stats for races native to the new planets introduced within (that were not already covered by the Galaxy Guides).

Anyway you look at it, the D6 version has the most support (splats) out of any version to date.

[Knaight]

Another example would be the "cool talent" that lets a character of a certain career tree pull an item out of their backside. Literally, if they have this talent, they can pull whatever they could be "justifiably" be carrying in their tools and stuff, out of what amounts to thin air. Because hey, of course it's "genre appropriate" for the character to just happen to have that tool along. It's a rules-encoded arse-pull.

This is pretty standard - precise lists that track every single item a character is carrying are pretty rare, and even if they are in play implicit items are usually a thing. For instance, say that a player wants to have their character do something with a shoe lace - they probably don't have "shoe lace" written down anywhere on their sheet. It's pretty implicit in "boots" though*, and those are often implicit in something like "set of traveling clothing" or "military uniform", and those are often implicit in that one assumes the characters are wearing something even if clothes aren't explicitly listed on the sheet. This just extends the concept a bit further for one character. It's hardly an arse-pull.

*For some settings, depends on the boot. Fantasy is a borderline case, western is straight up unlikely.