Girl Genius XXI: Cancel the Jugglers

[eschmenk]

But Lucy-in-Agatha certainly seems to have no problem with using her issue for her own purposes. If she was willing to mind-swap into Agatha, do you thing she'd have any issue with killing her son?

This was edited in, but didn't appear yet in the version I applied to earlier.

To answer the question: No, Lucrezia seems to regard everyone else as expendable. She was willing to kill Agatha, not just mind-swap into Agatha, so of course she would also be willing to kill her son, too.

I'm not sure why you asked the question of me. Is there some context I'm missing?

The Lucy that sent Klaus away clearly had problems with just flat out killing him...

She did? What is the basis for making that claim?

Obviously, she would rather not kill him as long as she might have a use for him (he was a fine hunk of meat), but I don't see anything that indicated that she wouldn't have killed him if she thought she needed to do so.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Every time you lot go to theory land for a batch of predictions, I'm reminded of the amounts of digital ink spilled over the absolutely had to be true idea that Higgs was the Keeper of the Heterodyne Treasury, despite the fact he was nowhere near the place and it could've been robbed blind without him being the wiser.

[Oneris]

I'm reminded of Tom Siddell's author commentary on Gunnerkrigg Court

"Congratulations to those who figured this out. In my mind I am picturing a dart board with every available space riddled with darts."

[tonberrian]

I remember none of the nonsense about Higgs being the guardian of the Heterodyne treasure. Which is weird, since I've been here since the beginning of Mechanicsburg. I must have repressed it or something.

[Shining Wrath]

Colette's Sparky Breakthrough is coming, after sufficient dramatic build-up.

Andy's not looking very safe to be around right now. He's got the Solid back, and he's got an attitude problem.

[eee]

Oh geez. Run, Andy. Or at least prepare to get hit with every weapon and attack function in Paris.

(The MoP has taken WORSE? Holy cow.)

I remember none of the nonsense about Higgs being the guardian of the Heterodyne treasure. Which is weird, since I've been here since the beginning of Mechanicsburg. I must have repressed it or something.

The 'nonsense' - more actually the Foglios having fun with us - came about when Baron Oublenmach, in explaining what he was up to, was talking about the Treasure of the Heterodynes and said it had a Guardian, depicted in the art as an indefinite humanoid figure. Naturally, based on how formidable the Guardian appeared, and how formidable Higgs was, the belief became they were one in the same. Which was shattered when Franz was revealed to be the Guardian.

It's thanks to this that I am doubtful Higgs is the 6th and secret Jager general. Fool me once...

[eschmenk]

Every time you lot go to theory land for a batch of predictions, I'm reminded of the amounts of digital ink spilled over the absolutely had to be true idea that Higgs was the Keeper of the Heterodyne Treasury, despite the fact he was nowhere near the place and it could've been robbed blind without him being the wiser.

When was the last time "you lot" went into theory land for a bunch of predictions? We were just discussing something that happened in the past.

[Rogar Demonblud]

First, I lost my smileys again (anyone know why that happens with mobile?). But yes, you are building castles out of clouds with yet another round of daydreaming. Like the, oh, what's a constantly recurring one, the attempts to pretend that Smoke Knights have any defined power source beyond "Plot" for what they do. Heck, the last round of epileptic trees regarding the MoT had it as FutureAgatha and Clankrezia fused together somehow.

We simply do not have the data available for a proper hypothesis, and likely will not (if past situations are anything to go on) until the Foglios spell it out.

So let's just sit back and enjoy the ride (or slugging match, in the current moment).

[factotum]

Colette's Sparky Breakthrough is coming, after sufficient dramatic build-up.

I honestly don't see why people keep saying this? She seems to know the city's systems perfectly well as it is, and the only benefit that her becoming a Spark would give her is to allow her to build her own gizmos. I'm sure Andy's going to stand around doing nothing for a few hours while she gets her Super Duper Anti-Andy Gun built and ready to fire...

[T-Mick]

I honestly don't see why people keep saying this? She seems to know the city's systems perfectly well as it is, and the only benefit that her becoming a Spark would give her is to allow her to build her own gizmos. I'm sure Andy's going to stand around doing nothing for a few hours while she gets her Super Duper Anti-Andy Gun built and ready to fire...

Think in terms of story-telling. First of all, it could have been foreshadowed by the Master's comments on her ability. Second, we haven't seen a spark breakthrough in-comic since Agatha, so it's an interesting turn of the plot. Finally, it adds an interesting dynamic to "the group," which hasn't had any sparks besides Agatha since part one, and tends to favor the ladies anyway. I'd love to see Colette join up for a while.

Anyway, sparks do more than build gizmos. The Master implies that controlling the city is best done by a spark. We know there are art sparks (which I still hope we see in Paris, not looking likely anymore).

In other words, it'd be a cool way to take the story, whether it makes sense from a utilitarian view or not.

[Shining Wrath]

I honestly don't see why people keep saying this? She seems to know the city's systems perfectly well as it is, and the only benefit that her becoming a Spark would give her is to allow her to build her own gizmos. I'm sure Andy's going to stand around doing nothing for a few hours while she gets her Super Duper Anti-Andy Gun built and ready to fire...

Because the MoP has been keeping himself alive for decades waiting for a fit successor, and has hopes for Colette; and this is a convenient time and place for him to die, what with Zola and Andy and Beausoliel and hordes of Geisters ranged against him.

[geoduck]

It's thanks to this that I am doubtful Higgs is the 6th and secret Jager general. Fool me once...

There's a lot more foreshadowing and evidence that he's the general then there ever was for him being the treasure-guardian. He all but admitted it during his conversation with Vole. I would actually be disappointed in the Foglios if all that build-up was a fake-out.

I do hope we find out someday what happened to/with that General who failed to show up in Mechanicsburg when Agatha was officially declared the Heterodyne.

[eschmenk]

do hope we find out someday what happened to/with that General who failed to show up in Mechanicsburg when Agatha was officially declared the Heterodyne.

That would be nice, but it's also possible that the Foglios merely threw that in just as foreshadowing in order to hint that Klaus was already intercepting people heading for Mechanicsburg. The scene where Doctor Bren and the vespiary units were intercepted by Klaus's assassins came immediately after the scene where we learned that General Zadipok failed to arrive, so it at least worked as foreshadowing. It could be that that is all that there is to it. However, if there is more to it than that, it would be nice to know what it is.

There are lots of things I would like to find out about someday, in particular the things having to do with Gil, Bang, Punch and Judy becoming free, and Lucrezia suffering her setback after Klaus stopped time. Those are the big questions for me. It could even be that General Zadipok had something to do with it. Who knows?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Simplest explanation is that he was assassinated, perhaps by some sneaky ninja-analogue.

[The Glyphstone]

Do we know if Jaegers are susceptible to slaver wasps?

[HandofShadows]

IIRC Jaegers are immune to the wasps. Can't remember where I saw it though.

[SZbNAhL]

That would be nice, but it's also possible that the Foglios merely threw that in just as foreshadowing in order to hint that Klaus was already intercepting people heading for Mechanicsburg. The scene where Doctor Bren and the vespiary units were intercepted by Klaus's assassins came immediately after the scene where we learned that General Zadipok failed to arrive, so it at least worked as foreshadowing.

Wasn't that also the scene where we saw that Jager generals are so vastly superior in combat to the Wulfenbach black ops that a fight between them is a hilarious curbstomp? Generals who mangaed to reach Mechnicsberg apparently unmolested, I might add. Bren was a) a specific threat to the other based on the nature of his research and b) a scientist, not a centuries-old elite supersoldier.

[eschmenk]

IIRC Jaegers are immune to the wasps. Can't remember where I saw it though.

Yes, DuPree says so here.

Wasn't that also the scene where we saw that Jager generals are so vastly superior in combat to the Wulfenbach black ops that a fight between them is a hilarious curbstomp? Generals who mangaed to reach Mechnicsberg apparently unmolested, I might add. Bren was a) a specific threat to the other based on the nature of his research and b) a scientist, not a centuries-old elite supersoldier.

Yes, of course, it was that fight. Why do you ask? Are you trying to make some sort of point? If so, you didn't didn't indicate what point you were trying to make. I think think of two possible points that could easily be rebutted, but that's all.

Rebuttal 1) Since the Black Ops people were going after the Bren and the wasp hunters and wasp eaters, the Baron probably would have used someone else to intercept the general.

Rebuttal 2) At the time of the foreshadowing, we didn't know for sure that the generals would win so easily. The scene involving the generals wouldn't have been as interesting or effective if we hadn't had a reason to think it might not be quite so easy for them.

Or were you just talking because you wanted to point out that the generals had an easier time that we were led to expect? Or was there really some point that you were trying to make that I didn't think of?

[Lethologica]

I think the point is, why conclude that Zadipok's absence is linked to Wulfenbach black ops intercepting people heading for Mechanicsburg, when there's any number of reasons Zadipok could be missing (including, as Tarvek conjectured, dissension), there's no reason to 'foreshadow' literally the next page, and there's no reason to think Wulfenbach black ops would have been effective against Zadipok anyway? That seems like a premature attribution without sufficient warrant, just for the sake of having an attribution.

[eschmenk]

I think the point is, why conclude that Zadipok's absence is linked to Wulfenbach black ops intercepting people heading for Mechanicsburg, when there's any number of reasons Zadipok could be missing (including, as Tarvek conjectured, dissension), there's no reason to 'foreshadow' literally the next page, and there's no reason to think Wulfenbach black ops would have been effective against Zadipok anyway? That seems like a premature attribution without sufficient warrant, just for the sake of having an attribution.

I think you are over-arguing things here. Look at the earlier comment and notice that the foreshadowing was merely mentioned as a possibility. I didn't suggest that the Baron was using his Black Ops people to intercept Zadipok. See "Rebuttal 1)." And yes, the foreshadowing was not necessary--it's not normally necessary--but leading into things is a good storytelling thing to do.

[SZbNAhL]

Yes, of course, it was that fight. Why do you ask? Are you trying to make some sort of point? If so, you didn't didn't indicate what point you were trying to make.

My point was that it's a more than a little odd to assume that the Baron could have intercepted and murdered a general when we saw in the very sequence you're drawing attention to that the Baron's best interceptor-and-murderers were no match for said generals.

Rebuttal 1) Since the Black Ops people were going after the Bren and the wasp hunters and wasp eaters, the Baron probably would have used someone else to intercept the general.

That would imply that the Baron has another, better, set of murderers lying around, which raises all kinds of questions about where they were during the Battle of Mechanicsburg and why Tarvek never commented on The Baron using his second-rate murderers for such an essential task. Oh, and that decision in general, commentary or no.

Rebuttal 2) At the time of the foreshadowing, we didn't know for sure that the generals would win so easily. The scene involving the generals wouldn't have been as interesting or effective if we hadn't had a reason to think it might not be quite so easy for them.

That ... makes no sense. Our reason to think that the fight might not be a walkover was that we'd never seen either side in combat before, so we had no reason to assume that it would be. For all we knew the generals were soft and fat from years of living in a command post and the Wulfenbach Stealth Hunters were the deadliest assassins in the world.

Also, that would mean that something that makes no sense in-universe (a general being killed by vastly inferior forces) occurred for unnecessary meta reasons (foreshadowing the next page), which is honestly just bad storytelling and not something I would expect from the Foglios at all.

[Alex Knight]

TFH Theory based on Monday's page.

What if Euryophisa (sp)? Heterodyne is The Other/Muse of Time? She vanished when fooling with stuff in Van Rijn's lab and she was "vun uf de fun vones."

[tonberrian]

Spoiler

Show

And now another one for the epileptic trees! The Muse of Time is secretly Euphrosynia!

[dps]

Besides didn't the Heterdyne son died int he attack of casstle Heterodyne ? Not only could it have been an accident but there's been extremly strong hint she won't the the 'Other' that willlead the attack (well one of her pawn technicaly but not her)

Whether or not Lucrezia is truly The Other, the death of her son certainly could have been a accident/collateral damage and not part of her plan.

At this point, though, there's just too much that we don't know about The Other's attack on the Castle to do more than make wild guesses.

[Lethologica]

I think you are over-arguing things here.

No, I'm pretty sure the only over-arguing taking place is from the person who mocks disagreement as pointless.

There's nothing in the subsequent black ops confrontation that makes a reader go, "Oh, this must be what happened to Zadipok," so Zadipok's absence can't be considered foreshadowing for the black ops activity in the first place. If the black ops confrontation was anything like what happened to Zadipok, Zadipok would have been present at the meeting picking Wulfenbach people out of his teeth.

[Kantaki]

New comic

I think I'll agree with Agatha.
Better stay out of Voltaire's way.

Castlebot cheering for the Master is cute.

And I love the irony of Agatha and the Castlebot helping Collette while her father rants againsts the (old) Heterodynes.

[geoduck]

That would imply that the Baron has another, better, set of murderers lying around, which raises all kinds of questions about where they were during the Battle of Mechanicsburg and why Tarvek never commented on The Baron using his second-rate murderers for such an essential task. Oh, and that decision in general, commentary or no.

I agree with your overall point about Zadipok, and maybe this is what you're saying, but.. Tarvek explicitly comments that the guys sent to kill the Vespiary Squad are second-rate murderers, at least compared to Smoke Knights. One obvious but unconfirmed answer that springs to mind is that the wasped Baron was ordered by one of the Lucrezia copies to kill the Squad, but she failed to make her orders specific enough, and he was able to weasel around them. "You said kill the squad, you didn't say how or with who." He had every reason to hope the Squad would escape. This could be extended to the whole battle; it was again commented in-universe that the Baron was not acting like his usual hyper-efficient self.

[factotum]

Tarvek explicitly comments that the guys sent to kill the Vespiary Squad are second-rate murderers, at least compared to Smoke Knights.

Um, yes, along with every other murderer squad on the planet, realistically? Smoke Knights are *badass*, and Tarvek may have just been commenting along the lines of, "Hey, I heard the Baron's guys were as good as Smoke Knights, but I see that clearly isn't the case".

[eee]

New comic.

It'd probably be better to hit Andy with the main attack at once, instead of escalating attacks as he shrugs off each previous one. But what do I know, I'm not the Master of Paris. For which Paris should probably be extremely thankful.

Spoiler

Show

(in light of today's revelations of what happened to Euphrosynia, considers possibility she was messing with van Rijn's Muse of Time research, got herself kicked into Limbo for several hundred years of sensory deprivation, somehow emerged and was switched with Lucrezia, and the Other is actually Euphrosynia Heterodyne acting through Lu's body.)

(decides against it. Lu's words in the Corbettite monastery, about how she should have won but something went wrong and she was all alone for so long and even her wretched husband never saved her, could apply to either herself or Euphrosynia under the right scenario. But Lu knows too much about Klaus, including being able to read his body language, to be Euphrosynia. And the Other's technology, according to Klaus, is Lu's style, but much more advanced.)

(considers possibility of the two women somehow merging. the sum of their knowledge, genius, and worst character traits producing the Other and leading the new creature to conclude it is a god and deserves to take over the Earth.)

(decides to keep idea in mind, pending further evidence.)

[eschmenk]

My point was that it's a more than a little odd to assume that the Baron could have intercepted and murdered a general when we saw in the very sequence you're drawing attention to that the Baron's best interceptor-and-murderers were no match for said generals.

There wasn't any indication that they were very good. Furthermore, there are tons of ways in which Klaus potentially could have successfully intercepted Zadipok . There is no reason to assume it would have played out like it did in the scene you are referring to. If Zadipok was traveling by airship, he could have had someone plant a bomb aboard the airship. He could have sent a squadron of vastly superior airships to shoot it down. He could have had the crew pretend to obey Zadipok, but sail into a trap and bail out. Who knows what Klaus might have done? With so little information available, it's silly to limit yourself to a specific scenario that you think wouldn't work or to generalize that not working would apply to all possible scenarios.

That would imply that the Baron has another, better, set of murderers lying around, which raises all kinds of questions about where they were during the Battle of Mechanicsburg and why Tarvek never commented on The Baron using his second-rate murderers for such an essential task. Oh, and that decision in general, commentary or no.

Tarvek clearly had nothing but contempt for those assassins. He called them "morons" and "clods" and said that they weren't "fit to shine a smoke knight's knives." He even kind of criticized Ruxala for letting herself get stabbed by them. However, as you implied earlier, the assassins didn't need to be very good to take out Dr. Bren. Why wouldn't Klaus have used them if his other forces were busy doing other things or were being held in reserve?

Also, that would mean that something that makes no sense in-universe (a general being killed by vastly inferior forces) occurred for unnecessary meta reasons (foreshadowing the next page), which is honestly just bad storytelling and not something I would expect from the Foglios at all.

The premise for that has already been shot down. Additionally, I would like to say that IMO your interpretation (the idea that Klaus couldn't stop a single Jäger general if he really tried) would amount to poor storytelling, not mine.

No, I'm pretty sure the only over-arguing taking place is from the person who mocks disagreement as pointless.

There's nothing in the subsequent black ops confrontation that makes a reader go, "Oh, this must be what happened to Zadipok," so Zadipok's absence can't be considered foreshadowing for the black ops activity in the first place. If the black ops confrontation was anything like what happened to Zadipok, Zadipok would have been present at the meeting picking Wulfenbach people out of his teeth.

Foreshadowing doesn't need to be that specific. A reader could have thought, "Something might go wrong." That would be enough. Another, admittedly subtle, way in which it worked as foreshadowing was that it foreshadowed Tarvek fighting alongside the Jägers. Whether or not it was more than just foreshadowing, it worked as foreshadowing for me.

Getting back to my main point, the mention of Zadipok already served a narrative purpose. There could be more to it than what we've seen so far, but there wouldn't need to be anything more. Zadipok may or may not be mentioned again.

One obvious but unconfirmed answer that springs to mind is that the wasped Baron was ordered by one of the Lucrezia copies to kill the Squad, but she failed to make her orders specific enough, and he was able to weasel around them. "You said kill the squad, you didn't say how or with who." He had every reason to hope the Squad would escape. This could be extended to the whole battle; it was again commented in-universe that the Baron was not acting like his usual hyper-efficient self.

That's an interesting idea, but I'm not sure about it. As far as your later comment about efficiency, I'm not sure what you are talking about, but could it be one of the times Klaus didn't do things efficiently apparently because as a revenant he couldn't kill Agatha once he found out that a copy of Lucrezia was inside of her?