Returning the Fighter to relevance.

[Melcar]

With the myriad books that have come out many classes have received boons in one form or another. The fighter has more feats to select from for their bonus feats but, unlike some other classes, has not stood the test of time well. I do have a couple changes that should return the fighter to its original role, master of melee, and allow it to return as a viable straight build.

The Four changes I'm considering for my next table top game are;
1) Bonus fighter feat every level (previously taken can be changed on even levels, so long as they are not required for another feat).
2) Fighters do not need to meet stat requirements for bonus feats. As such a Dex 8 fighter CAN go all the way up the TWF tree.
3) Fighters get 4 + int skill points / level with the following skills added to their list; Listen, Spot, Survival.
4) If using Tome of Battle, each level in Fighter counts as an initiator level for any maneuver using class, including fighters who use bonus feats to take maneuvers and stances.

The change to skills isn't a lot but should make for a more rounded character. The other three should let them really stay relevant.

Can anyone see anything majorly overpowering about these changes?

For the fighter and fighter only I would allow that weapon focus and weapons specializations could be taken multiple times for the same weapon. I know there already are "greater" version of both which comes online at level 8 and 12 respectively, but I would allow the fighter to have 10 WS with longsword. That would give him a chance to be the dominant melee DPS and reach a nice high attack bonus. Or even better allow multiple Weapon Mastery feats with the same weapon.

Also perhaps make him proficient with exotic weapons as well, due to his intuition with arms in general?

[Keltest]

Something I have noticed that hasn't come up in this thread is equipment. (Edit: ok, I see one post right above mine) Casting back to old legends, legendary heroes almost always had equally legendary equipment with them. Perseus got a bunch of equipment from the gods to let him survive beheading Medusa. King Arthur and his knights had many different famous swords.

Now fighters do get a couple of feats they can invest in to make use of weapons slightly better than other people... and they suck. A level 20 fighter can hit more reliably and somewhat harder than another class of the same level could, but they don't fundamentally alter the way a fighter uses the weapon, or indeed even make it stand out from another fighter using the same weapon without the feats.

The solution in my mind here is to re-examine what the intent behind the weapon feats, and change them so that, if you picked them, you could use a longsword and do better than if were to then pick up a greatsword, or any other weapon.

[Morphic tide]

Something I have noticed that hasn't come up in this thread is equipment. (Edit: ok, I see one post right above mine) Casting back to old legends, legendary heroes almost always had equally legendary equipment with them. Perseus got a bunch of equipment from the gods to let him survive beheading Medusa. King Arthur and his knights had many different famous swords.

Now fighters do get a couple of feats they can invest in to make use of weapons slightly better than other people... and they suck. A level 20 fighter can hit more reliably and somewhat harder than another class of the same level could, but they don't fundamentally alter the way a fighter uses the weapon, or indeed even make it stand out from another fighter using the same weapon without the feats.

The solution in my mind here is to re-examine what the intent behind the weapon feats, and change them so that, if you picked them, you could use a longsword and do better than if were to then pick up a greatsword, or any other weapon.

Lightning Mace, Boomerang Daze and such are a good place to start with such feats. Actually making the weapons have blatantly supernatural effects is right out for Fighters, but replicating some of the more basic magic item effects, or ones that make sense as (Ex) abilities, like Wounding, Fast, Defending and, at near-Epic, Vorpal, would make Fighter considerably more effective. Scaling versions of some of the existing weapon specialization feats, as in the general category of Weapon Focus, would help with feat starvation. Some sort of setup like having certain feats only when wielding specific weapons, preferably more than one feat or feats considerably out of the way, would help with that.

Similarly, scaling feats in general help a lot, I can see something like Toughness being a scaling repurchaseable feat. +1 per HD on the first purchase, +3 on the second, +6 per HD on the third and so on. A simple 1/3 BAB to AC when fighting defensively (Basically Defending on most classes) makes the Wizard's AC boosting a bit less severe.

[John Longarrow]

OK, equipment... This may be an area that can really help with out of combat options. Or more specifically there are a few things that a fighter SHOULD be really good at that are not normally outlined.

1) Fighters can appraise armor/weapons. They use their level in fighter as ranks in appraise when determining what a weapon or armors true value is.
2) At 4th level fighters can figure out the magical properties on weapons/armor. 8 hours uninterrupted practicing with a weapon or armor lets the fighter know the properties as if they had cast the identify spell.
3) Fighters can assess an opponent (sense motive, page 68 of Rules Compendium) either based on their sense motive or on their fighter level +5, which ever is better. Hey, fighters SHOULD be really good at sizing up an opponent.
4) Fighters get a bonus against fear effects equal to half their fighter level round down. They are trained to retain their discipline even when terrified.

[Ludic]

4) Fighters get a bonus against fear effects equal to half their fighter level round down. They are trained to retain their discipline even when terrified.

I really like this, but how does that interact with the bonuses you can get from other classes. Is it a morale bonus like the Paladin Aura of Courage? Or is it an untyped bonus like from Bolstering Voice stance?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Actually making the weapons have blatantly supernatural effects is right out for Fighters

Why? Go look into both Japanese and Celtic lore. Both have warriors doing things that break physics constantly, and those are just two out of thousands of cultures whose legendary mythological heroes regularly do things that aren't spellcasting, but they're still highly magical.

There's honestly no reason why fighters shouldn't be breaking reality at higher levels along with everyone else; there's simply no way for the class to function, otherwise.

[Ludic]

Why? Go look into both Japanese and Celtic lore. Both have warriors doing things that break physics constantly, and those are just two out of thousands of cultures whose legendary mythological heroes regularly do things that aren't spellcasting, but they're still highly magical.

There's honestly no reason why fighters shouldn't be breaking reality at higher levels along with everyone else; there's simply no way for the class to function, otherwise.

It was also built into the Samurai in 3.0 in Oriental Adventures. The 3.5 Kensei improved on that feature. To be fair as well, building in the Kensei table to the fighter isn't a bad choice. Since they typically get stuck in one style of fighting. And it removes some of the burden of being super specialized in a fullblade by being able to change your enchantments on the fly. Instead of that shocking enchantment being invalidated because the DM tosses demon with the Tanar'ri subtype at you. When the cleric says 'well crap, that thing has a resistance to cold, fire and acid, and it's immune to electricity and poison', instead of saying, 'great my weapon is totally useless' you say 'Well, alrighty then, time for Mr. Wiggles (Because what fighter doesn't name their sword) to be Evil Outsiderbane, Magebane, Transmuting and +(N) instead of Shocking, Chilling and Constructbane and +(N)."

[Morphic tide]

Why? Go look into both Japanese and Celtic lore. Both have warriors doing things that break physics constantly, and those are just two out of thousands of cultures whose legendary mythological heroes regularly do things that aren't spellcasting, but they're still highly magical.

There's honestly no reason why fighters shouldn't be breaking reality at higher levels along with everyone else; there's simply no way for the class to function, otherwise.

When I say blatantly supernatural, I'm talking about straight-up-teleporting, having your weapon on-bloody-fire,(Perhaps the fire is bloody somehow, or the weapon is covered in flaming blood) doing stuff that is generally beyond existing high-level mundane nonsense.

Basically, if a Solar Exalt does it in their Melee charmset without getting the golden glowing hax in, it's worth thinking about for Fighter. That's why I mentioned stuff like copying the less magical Magic Item Enhancements, like Wounding and Defending.

Fighters are not supposed to be magical. This should be kept.

[AuraTwilight]

Why not? There's plenty of Fighter-y heroes in fiction and myth who had magical weapons to the point that the game expects it of you, might as well make them a class feature.

[Doctor Despair]

Something I've always liked the idea of is some (Ex.) ability to reflect magic developed by classes with high BAB but no ability to cast spells outside UMD WBL-mancy, however you would restrict that. Something like...

A character with 15 BAB and no ability to cast spells may make an attack roll (as if it were an AoO) whenever a spell targets a square she threatens, affects a square she threatens, or whose line of effect passes through a square she threatens. This attack roll precedes the effect of the spell as with contingent magic. The caster makes a caster level check against the mundane's attack roll. If the mundane ties or wins the check, the spell is countered and negated; the spell slot is still consumed.

I know there are lots of tricks to boost your caster level, but I feel like that would make mundanes a little more relevant without making them feel like casters. For more utility, maybe add something similar to the Witch Slayer ability:

A character with 15 BAB and no ability to cast spells may move up to their movement speed and make an attack roll. This movement and attack does not trigger any contingent magic. If the attack roll hits, any spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural effects effecting the target are removed and negated as in a disjunction. The target may attempt a will saving throw (DC = Mundane's BAB + 1 for each 50 damage dealt) to resist this effect. If the target is an object, it uses its creator's will save; if the effects on an object had multiple creators, use the best will save.

I'd assume the numbers are wrong, but conceptually I feel like that would help mundanes in combat situations as well as some puzzle-esque situations. Could also offer some utility for removing debuffs from party members.

[Morphic tide]

Why not? There's plenty of Fighter-y heroes in fiction and myth who had magical weapons to the point that the game expects it of you, might as well make them a class feature.

Because then you are no longer a Fighter, but a crappy melee Artificer. Leave the magic items out of class, have that stuff be an option for non-caster crafting to give the Fighter the ability to make their magic items. Or just make a variation of Heirloom weapon or Item Familiar (if I got that right..) which has similar properties to the Kensai feature. Keep the flatly magical stuff out of the main class and have it be out-of-class options.

[Ludic]

Something I've always liked the idea of is some (Ex.) ability to reflect magic developed by classes with high BAB but no ability to cast spells outside UMD WBL-mancy, however you would restrict that. Something like...

A character with 15 BAB and no ability to cast spells may make an attack roll (as if it were an AoO) whenever a spell targets a square she threatens, affects a square she threatens, or whose line of effect passes through a square she threatens. This attack roll precedes the effect of the spell as with contingent magic. The caster makes a caster level check against the mundane's attack roll. If the mundane ties or wins the check, the spell is countered and negated; the spell slot is still consumed.

I know there are lots of tricks to boost your caster level, but I feel like that would make mundanes a little more relevant without making them feel like casters. For more utility, maybe add something similar to the Witch Slayer ability:

A character with 15 BAB and no ability to cast spells may move up to their movement speed and make an attack roll. This movement and attack does not trigger any contingent magic. If the attack roll hits, any spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural effects effecting the target are removed and negated as in a disjunction. The target may attempt a will saving throw (DC = Mundane's BAB + 1 for each 50 damage dealt) to resist this effect. If the target is an object, it uses its creator's will save; if the effects on an object had multiple creators, use the best will save.

I'd assume the numbers are wrong, but conceptually I feel like that would help mundanes in combat situations as well as some puzzle-esque situations. Could also offer some utility for removing debuffs from party members.

Hit up complete warrior. Occult Slayer has it, if you're going to go that route, why reinvent the wheel when all you need to do is change the tire.

[Doctor Despair]

Hit up complete warrior. Occult Slayer has it, if you're going to go that route, why reinvent the wheel when all you need to do is change the tire.

I mean, the ability I described is a bit stronger than Spellturning twice a day. :p Although now that you mention it, it might make sense to tag the first ability onto Occult Slayer at 5 and the second onto Witch Slayer at 5 thematically.

[Ludic]

I mean, the ability I described is a bit stronger than Spellturning twice a day. :p Although now that you mention it, it might make sense to tag the first ability onto Occult Slayer at 5 and the second onto Witch Slayer at 5 thematically.

I was just referring to using it as a base starting point instead of building from scratch. Since the concept is already functional in a PrC.

[John Longarrow]

I really like this, but how does that interact with the bonuses you can get from other classes. Is it a morale bonus like the Paladin Aura of Courage? Or is it an untyped bonus like from Bolstering Voice stance?

Not that its asked... I'd have to say if its based off of being competent as a fighter, competency bonus would be the type. :D

[Arbane]

Because then you are no longer a Fighter, but a crappy melee Artificer. Leave the magic items out of class, have that stuff be an option for non-caster crafting to give the Fighter the ability to make their magic items. Or just make a variation of Heirloom weapon or Item Familiar (if I got that right..) which has similar properties to the Kensai feature. Keep the flatly magical stuff out of the main class and have it be out-of-class options.

And this is why Fighters can't Have Nice Things - because all the Nice Things are magic, and Fighter's Aren't Magic. Because the current ability of a high-level Fighter to kill a Tyrannosaur with a dagger in single combat is totally realistic.

[Morphic tide]

And this is why Fighters can't Have Nice Things - because all the Nice Things are magic, and Fighter's Aren't Magic. Because the current ability of a high-level Fighter to kill a Tyrannosaur with a dagger in single combat is totally realistic.

Hey, I mentioned Glorious Solar Bull**** as largely acceptable for Fighters. It's blatant magic I'm not okay with. Blatantly impossible skill at fighting is fine, including removing the need for many magical effects. Stuff like Flight and elemental attacks are a no, having increasingly physics warping stuff related to actual fighting is a yes.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Hey, I mentioned Glorious Solar Bull**** as largely acceptable for Fighters. It's blatant magic I'm not okay with. Blatantly impossible skill at fighting is fine, including removing the need for many magical effects. Stuff like Flight and elemental attacks are a no, having increasingly physics warping stuff related to actual fighting is a yes.

Ki isn't magic, but it's still (Su), it's all over Eastern mythology, and it can do all those things you mentioned. And most of all, it ain't spellcasting, and it's something fighters should have native access to at later levels.

[OldTrees1]

Hey, I mentioned Glorious Solar Bull**** as largely acceptable for Fighters. It's blatant magic I'm not okay with. Blatantly impossible skill at fighting is fine, including removing the need for many magical effects. Stuff like Flight and elemental attacks are a no, having increasingly physics warping stuff related to actual fighting is a yes.

Define high level out of combat abilities under this paradigm.

Define high level mobility abilities under this paradigm.

[Lans]

And this is why Fighters can't Have Nice Things - because all the Nice Things are magic, and Fighter's Aren't Magic. Because the current ability of a high-level Fighter to kill a Tyrannosaur with a dagger in single combat is totally realistic.

You can still have some nice things, look at warblade and crusader, or the barbarian. I think he would like for the actual magic to come from actual magic items. Maybe just a wealth boost at a few levels, in the form of a battle scrounge ability. People have been talking about giving him a keep at 10th level, so that would be in line with that.

I think giving the fighter a boost in numbers for combat and skills will go a long way to making him more in line with most classes.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I think giving the fighter a boost in numbers for combat and skills will go a long way to making him more in line with most classes.

Skills, yes. Numbers, no. Fighters already get plenty of numbers. Unfortunately, all they can do with them whack you over the head with them, and therein lies the problem.

[Arbane]

I think giving the fighter a boost in numbers for combat and skills will go a long way to making him more in line with most classes.

I don't think doing damage is the Fighter's problem - it's dealing with everything else, from flying enemies to mystery scenarios. All of which can be trivialized with the right spell.

[Lans]

Skills, yes. Numbers, no. Fighters already get plenty of numbers. Unfortunately, all they can do with them whack you over the head with them, and therein lies the problem.

I don't think doing damage is the Fighter's problem - it's dealing with everything else, from flying enemies to mystery scenarios. All of which can be trivialized with the right spell.

I was referring to more than just whacking somebody up the head with a hammer when I said combat. Fighters as is tend to be pigoned holed into one combat style and needs better numbers in the other styles, needs save increases, and higher ac . You don't need to fly if you can shoot a bow good enough. Even when it comes to the one fighting style they choose the numbers get a little dicey at some levels, like at level 7 vs a hill giant or earth elemental. They fighter can be built to beat these but it requires a bit of op

[Morphic tide]

Define high level out of combat abilities under this paradigm.

Define high level mobility abilities under this paradigm.

You want the Fighter to be great at stuff that isn't Fighting? Make a different class altogether for it. The Fighter is intended to be the greatest combat monster in the long term, after the Barbarian runs out of Rage, after the Monk runs out of Ki, after the casters run out of Magic, perhaps before those. Anything else can be made into feats on the side for the Fighter to grab so as to substitute their fighting abilities for non-fighting stuff. Fighters fight. That is the only thing they should do, and they should be so damn good at it that they can keep up with the full casters in combat. Fighters do not do out of combat stuff, it's not what they are. Making them good at out of combat stuff is ignoring the point of Fighters.

Mobility options? Well, Spring Attack on crack comes to mind, as does near-arbitrary Charge distances. Again, Fighter only does Fighting. That is what they are. That is all they are, and all they really should be, because they are Fighters. So any mobility options should be removing the importance of other mobility options that would otherwise counter the Fighter and make them go for multikills by basically outdoing the Monk at jumping between enemies.

[Pugwampy]

I have yet to feel useless or inadequate playing a fighter type class .....

You have 1000 plus classes to choose all basically a different version of 4 core types . wizard , cleric , rogue and fighter .

Fighter has most HP , AC and Damage . His job is to stand infront while everyone hides behind him . He does his job very well .

Why do you Chess GrandMasters want to make a mathematic mountain out of this game meant for 12 year olds ?
All your arguments for divine and arcane casters deal with late game high level . They are not relevant or very helpful in the early game and low levels .

[OldTrees1]

You want the Fighter to be great at stuff that isn't Fighting? Make a different class altogether for it. The Fighter is intended to be the greatest combat monster in the long term, after the Barbarian runs out of Rage, after the Monk runs out of Ki, after the casters run out of Magic, perhaps before those. Anything else can be made into feats on the side for the Fighter to grab so as to substitute their fighting abilities for non-fighting stuff. Fighters fight. That is the only thing they should do, and they should be so damn good at it that they can keep up with the full casters in combat. Fighters do not do out of combat stuff, it's not what they are. Making them good at out of combat stuff is ignoring the point of Fighters.

Mobility options? Well, Spring Attack on crack comes to mind, as does near-arbitrary Charge distances. Again, Fighter only does Fighting. That is what they are. That is all they are, and all they really should be, because they are Fighters. So any mobility options should be removing the importance of other mobility options that would otherwise counter the Fighter and make them go for multikills by basically outdoing the Monk at jumping between enemies.

So under your paradigm the Fighter player should tune out when out of combat & high level Fighters lack the mobility abilities necessary for high level combat (A planeshifting dragon requires more than mere charges to reach).

Fine, you can go and make your fighter. I care about Fighters being Tier 3 even at high level and that requires at minimum both the ability to participate in high level out of combat encounters and the ability to reach the enemies they are meant to slay in combat. Afterall, Fighters are good at Fighting and so they need to be good enough at the rest so that they can still reach the Fighting.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Combat is about WAAAAY more than just whacking things with a sharp thing.

What about war? Tactics? Strategy? Knowledge of magic and how to deal with it, and counteract it being used against you, and use those who can use it for your own purposes? How to conduct sieges? Setting up war camps? Organizing supply lines? Ambushing the opposite side? Knowing enemy weaknesses? Maneuverability before and during a fight? Convincing the commonfolk to conscript into an army? Leading men? Knowing how to pinpoint weaknesses, both in your side and your enemies'?

The fighter class can do NONE of these things.

But wizard can. Wizard is a better warrior class than fighter is, because fighter is a friggin' NPC class.

[Hal0Badger]

The fighter class can do NONE of these things.

But wizard can. Wizard is a better warrior class than fighter is, because fighter is a friggin' NPC class.

Wizard can do anything anyway?

The fighter sucks problem is related to not just fighter, but powerful abilities of broad range of T1 as well, which can fill almost any role, well within TO of course. But that's almost entire another discussion.

The main problem with the fighter is not the lack of out-of-combat, because that's not the premise of fighter. Main problem with that is, fighter cannot full-fill his proposed role (being the superior mundane fighting class) and seen as more likely a dip class.

Fighter class, as it is presented, intended to use Feat subsystem. Problem with that is, feat system has many traps, lacks in several areas (no sword&shield, no spear specialized fighting, TWF boggled with feat chains and dex requirements) and unlike spellcasting, you need to plan your feat selection, since majority of the good feats requires other feats first aside from other preq., where as when a wizard/sorcerer hits level 7-8, he can pick any almost any available spell from level 4 list.

That being said, without writing extra feats, fixing trap ones, best you can do is giving fighters some class features. But I would simply write good feats for martial characters, and bump fighter at some dead levels with good abilities which gets out of them tight situations (ability re-roll save for example, or rolling twice taking the better result). This is however, how I resolve in my tables. In other tables, where power level differs, better solution might be saying no to class, or maybe gestalting it with another class like duskblade or warblade.

[Morphic tide]

So under your paradigm the Fighter player should tune out when out of combat & high level Fighters lack the mobility abilities necessary for high level combat (A planeshifting dragon requires more than mere charges to reach).

Fine, you can go and make your fighter. I care about Fighters being Tier 3 even at high level and that requires at minimum both the ability to participate in high level out of combat encounters and the ability to reach the enemies they are meant to slay in combat. Afterall, Fighters are good at Fighting and so they need to be good enough at the rest so that they can still reach the Fighting.

That's what Feats are for. The 3.5 Fighter gets quite a few that could be spared if you give scaling versions of some of the lengthy feat chains. Perhaps have them worded as infinitely repurchasable with free repurchases for Fighters for the scaling, or scale more slowly for non-Fighters than they scale for Fighters with repurchases making up for it. Then make it possible to buy meaningful out of combat ability if you have enough feats to spare. Preferably by having them tie into combat abilities. I'm fine with having options for the Fighter to trade combat ability for non-combat ability, but the Fighter should, internally, be All Combat, All the Time. AFCs, feats, variant classes and so on to allow the Fighter to lower their massive combat ability for added versatility is fine, especially if you make there be more combat ability to trade.

For an example of how to free up feats for Fighters by making them scale:


Weapon Superiority [General]
Requirements: Weapon Specialization
Benefit: Choose a weapon you have chosen for Weapon Specialization. You gain a bonus to to-hit and damage equal to 1/2 your Fighter level with attacks made with that weapon.
Special: When the bonus of this feat increases to +4, you qualify as having Greater Weapon Focus with the chosen weapon for feat prerequisites and when the bonus reaches +6 you qualify as having Greater Weapon Specialization for feat prerequisites. This feat may be purchased multiple times, but you must choose a different weapon each time. A fighter may select Weapon Superiority as one of his fighter bonus feats.


Bam. Now you have Fighter feat saving on already Fighter exclusive feats. I am tired, and this is probably full of problems beyond the obvious feat prerequisite issue I clumsily patched up, but it's an example. That trims two feats and is a significant buff to to-hit that non-Fighter dips reduce, and can be quickly changed to trim another feat (Weapon Specialization, by making this replace Weapon Focus). Feats to spend on more varied combat things, or to get the same stuff without dipping into as many non-bonus feats. At it's core, Fighter should always be focused on Fighting. Stuff that directly relates is okay, but the base class should always focus on massive personal combat skills. Other combat things can be relegated to AFCs and Fighter feats and variant classes. Give more combat stuff for Fighter to trade off, and they can get more non-combat stuff by trading off potential combat stuff.

AC? Armor focus tree or feat thing. And shields. And a Parry tree or feat. That's Armor, Shield and Deflection AC bonuses to make bigger than normal sorts.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Wizard can do anything anyway?

It's not that the wizard can do it, too; it's that the fighter can't do it at all -- at least not using their class abilities. And this is elementary stuff that fighters should be trained in, but instead, it's a gaping hole in a protagonist warrior's repertoire.

As a parallel, sure, wizard can do party-face stuff to a degree, but they're not that great at it; meanwhile, bards rock that stuff so hard that you'll basically prefer a bard every time over wizard when one is available, even though bards are "only" tier 3. After all, bards don't have to expend daily resources to do it, and they're far better at it, by default.