LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread III: Third Time's A Charm

[golentan]

I 100% agree with you - I may have phrased it incorrectly in my last post, so I apologise for any offence caused. I often work with people that have problems with tinnitus and the dismissive attitude of a lot of doctors really annoys me. When you take the time to truly listen and absorb what they're telling you, even that simple act can make a world of difference.

Yeah, sorry. It's just kind of a reflex at this point: feels like I only hear people mention mental health and especially psychotic illness as a scapegoat (I.E. mass shootings are all about "psychos"), a threat/derision (Think about how most people talk about homeless guys by the bus stations who talk to themselves, or how often the "psycho is the murderer on television), or a "don't lump me in with those people" because... we're all subhuman monsters, I guess.

I know that's not what you meant, but closing on a year after I lost my dream job because of a mental health breakdown it's been eating at me a lot, and I'm tired of being hurt and scared so often, tired of seeing people who are like me maligned, mocked, and treated as subhuman, and desperately afraid that nobody will give me another chance.

[Troacctid]

The best outcomes with the minimum of harm....a noble statement that very often can twisted. The appalling practice known as a conversion therapy can be said to have the best outcomes for transphobic relatives pressuring a trans person. "It's for your own good" is an excuse often deployed by people harming someone for a best outcome. Ignore what a patient says is best for them at your peril.

"But Succubus, what about suicidal people and schizophrenic people? Should we encourage them to do potentially harmful things if they feel it is in their best interests?" Personally, I believe not although it greatly depends on circumstance. The problem is you are trying to compare mental illnesses (severe depression, etc) with a physiological condition (transgenderism). It doesn't work.

How can conversion therapy be said to have the best outcomes with a minimum of harm when it does absolutely nothing to help the transgender person, and in fact is almost universally harmful, often driving the patient to suicide?

[golentan]

How can conversion therapy be said to have the best outcomes with a minimum of harm when it does absolutely nothing to help the transgender person, and in fact is almost universally harmful, often driving the patient to suicide?

I think if you parse again, the Succubus was giving that as an example of how people claiming to be aiming for best outcomes but refusing to listen to their "patients" are taking a good sentiment (at heart, the hippocratic oath), and twisting it into a nefarious use (convincing themselves that the harm they inflict is less real than their own perceived best benefit for the person they victimize, regardless of what the victim or evidence of outcomes tells them).

[The Succubus]

I think if you parse again, the Succubus was giving that as an example of how people claiming to be aiming for best outcomes but refusing to listen to their "patients" are taking a good sentiment (at heart, the hippocratic oath), and twisting it into a nefarious use (convincing themselves that the harm they inflict is less real than their own perceived best benefit for the person they victimize, regardless of what the victim or evidence of outcomes tells them).

Golly is right - that's exactly what I meant. A long while ago, I did a google search for conversion therapy and found a website with a list of victims, showing what they were subjected to and what the....outcomes...were. Even as a cis, straightish guy, I found it utterly horrifying to read and the list never seemed to end. I never found that website again but I have been vehemently and passionately opposed to conversion therapy ever since.

[Inevitability]

I think if you parse again, the Succubus was giving that as an example of how people claiming to be aiming for best outcomes but refusing to listen to their "patients" are taking a good sentiment (at heart, the hippocratic oath), and twisting it into a nefarious use (convincing themselves that the harm they inflict is less real than their own perceived best benefit for the person they victimize, regardless of what the victim or evidence of outcomes tells them).

I suppose a 'hypocritic oath' pun would be inappropriate here? I'm very, very sorry.

[Asmodean_]

I suppose a 'hypocritic oath' pun would be inappropriate here? I'm very, very sorry.

I'm fairly sure they both stem from the greek philosopher Hippocrates so ::shrugs::

[golentan]

I suppose a 'hypocritic oath' pun would be inappropriate here? I'm very, very sorry.

I can't think of a situation where it would be more appropriate, and I like puns!

I'm fairly sure they both stem from the greek philosopher Hippocrates so ::shrugs::

Actually, hypocritical means "below" (hypo) "judgement" (critic). -al is basically "pertaining to."

As I understand it it's basically saying "You fall below the bar to be a critic because of your flawed, myopic judgement."

Whereas Hippocrates despite the similar sound in english breaks down to Hippo (horse) and krates (power) which... I guess his legacy lives on in the form of the internal combustion engine? Also, Hippopotamus means "river horse."

[Inevitability]

Also, Hippopotamus means "river horse."

It's also that way in Dutch: we call hippos 'nijlpaarden', which means something akin to 'Nile horses'.

[Prof. Maple]

I have a question regarding romantic orientation. When ever anyone reverences it is seemingly only paired with asexual. I was wondering weather someone could be hetero biromantic. (Recent events have lead me to believe I might be biromantic)
Just wondering. You can all get back to relavnt discussion now.

[Troacctid]

I have a question regarding romantic orientation. When ever anyone reverences it is seemingly only paired with asexual. I was wondering weather someone could be hetero biromantic. (Recent events have lead me to believe I might be biromantic)
Just wondering. You can all get back to relavnt discussion now.

Yes, that's a thing.

[Heliomance]

I have a question regarding romantic orientation. When ever anyone reverences it is seemingly only paired with asexual. I was wondering weather someone could be hetero biromantic. (Recent events have lead me to believe I might be biromantic)
Just wondering. You can all get back to relavnt discussion now.

I generally think of myself as bisexual homoromantic when I bother to get that specific. Guys are hot and all, but I'm fairly sure I don't want a boyfriend.

[noparlpf]

I have a question regarding romantic orientation. When ever anyone reverences it is seemingly only paired with asexual. I was wondering weather someone could be hetero biromantic. (Recent events have lead me to believe I might be biromantic)
Just wondering. You can all get back to relavnt discussion now.

Sure, it just generally seems less common for whatever reason so you don't hear about it as often. Bisexuality/-romanticism is a spectrum, too, so you can be more or less interested in one gender than another or more or less interested in certain things regarding one set of body parts vs. another set of body parts. Whatever works for you, both in terms of labels and what you do with any hypothetical partners.

[Cizak]

I have a question regarding romantic orientation. When ever anyone reverences it is seemingly only paired with asexual. I was wondering weather someone could be hetero biromantic. (Recent events have lead me to believe I might be biromantic)
Just wondering. You can all get back to relavnt discussion now.

Humans' various levels of need for intimacy are complicated. I think society as a whole would benefit more from separating sexual and romantic orientation. It's probably mostly talked about regarding asexual people because people feel a need to understand what sort of intimacy they are okay with.

[Coidzor]

I have a question regarding romantic orientation. When ever anyone reverences it is seemingly only paired with asexual. I was wondering weather someone could be hetero biromantic. (Recent events have lead me to believe I might be biromantic)
Just wondering. You can all get back to relavnt discussion now.

Yes, it just significantly complicates relationships to pursue one with someone romantically of interest but not sexually, and this is exacerbated if the person is sexually interested in others but not one's partner. So you'll mostly find people who are biromantic but homosexual or heterosexual living their lives in such a way that you couldn't tell them from a straight or gay person.

As I recall, people with completely conflicting romantic and sexual orientations are significantly rarer than people who are bi in one regard but not the other, but it's not like we have exhaustive studies with reliable figures, or a cultural situation without incentive to hide that sort of fact about one's self, either. I'm sure some of the men who cheat on their wives and are dismissed as closeted bi or gay men are more precisely termed as heteroromantic homosexuals, but good luck trying to estimate a percentage.

[Troacctid]

As I recall, people with completely conflicting romantic and sexual orientations are significantly rarer than people who are bi in one regard but not the other

Excluding aces, of course.

[TheDarkLord]

Wow, as a trans youth, and a new member of the forum, it really is amazing that you guys have a thread like this. I am really happy with the level of acceptance here. I am just so happy that there is a place like this. I am a HUGE fan of OOTS, and it is really great that there are other members of "the community" in this community. I have had lots of trouble with people accepting me in my life, and this thread is so cool!!! I just recently came out to my closest friends, and most people in my life don't know about/respect my gender identity. My whole life, though that doesn't seem like a very long time to some of you out there, I haven't fit into the ideas of classical gender. I have always pushed against gender stereotypes and have always felt different than everybody else. I personally used to use they/them pronouns, and for some reason, people seemed to really have a hard time with using those pronouns. I eventually gave up with trying to convince my friends to use proper pronouns, and settled with anything they wanted to call me. But seeing this thread, wow, I can't believe I'm saying this, but has given me the balls to start being true to who I am. Thank you so much, everybody on this thread. I realize I should care about how people see me and how they treat me. I am done with people disrespecting me. I am going to stand up for myself. Its crazy, but this internet forum is actually going to change my life. Wow. You guys can call me Phi, like the greek letter. They/Them pronouns please. Thank you all so much. I am going to start frequenting this forum from now on.

-Phi

[TheDarkLord]

To all those people who work on the website out there...
The only Options I could pick from when registering were:
M2F, F2M, Male, Female and Intersex

Why is the gender selection so limited for registering? Couldn't you have written in genders, or have a "none of the above" option at least? Most trans people I know wouldn't want to out themselves as M2F or F2M, so why have that as an option? Its kind of insulting that you would put that as a separate option than Male or Female. Idk it just frustrates me. There should definitely be more options.

Sorry about the rant.
They/Them pronouns please.

-Phi

[Ifni]

To all those people who work on the website out there...
The only Options I could pick from when registering were:
M2F, F2M, Male, Female and Intersex

This thread probably isn't the best place for that comment, I'm not sure your target audience will see it. Perhaps ask on the Board/Site Issues forum?

Most trans people I know wouldn't want to out themselves as M2F or F2M, so why have that as an option? Its kind of insulting that you would put that as a separate option than Male or Female.

I can see your point with wanting more options, but this seems to run counter to that. Some of the trans people on this board do use those options; I don't see any need to remove them just because you personally don't want to use them. It's fine you don't want to use them - many people don't - but getting rid of them removes options, it doesn't expand them.

Regarding a "none of the above" option: at least when I registered, you could just leave the gender field blank.

[Razade]

To all those people who work on the website out there...
The only Options I could pick from when registering were:
M2F, F2M, Male, Female and Intersex

No idea what they were thinking, if you don't want to take any of those options then you don't have to display gender at all. Plenty of people don't. Most people don't as far as I've seen. Frankly if this were my forum there wouldn't be an option at all.

Why is the gender selection so limited for registering? Couldn't you have written in genders, or have a "none of the above" option at least? Most trans people I know wouldn't want to out themselves as M2F or F2M, so why have that as an option? Its kind of insulting that you would put that as a separate option than Male or Female. Idk it just frustrates me. There should definitely be more options.

Here's the problem. Right here. Plenty of Trans people on this site are more than happy using them, no complains from what I've seen. I think you're taking this much too seriously. Don't display a gender if none of the ones available match. Which you've done. End of problem really.

[AmberVael]

I can see your point with wanting more options, but this seems to run counter to that. Some of the trans people on this board do use those options; I don't see any need to remove them just because you personally don't want to use them. It's fine you don't want to use them - many people don't - but getting rid of them removes options, it doesn't expand them.

I dunno, I've always had an issue with the trans gender-markers myself, simply because they prompt misunderstanding of what gender someone is, and what being trans means. Having them as a separate gender symbol puts them out there as a separate gender, distinct from male and female, and that's just incorrect. Trans is not my gender. Its an elaboration on the circumstances around my gender. Its like the difference between a local student and a transfer student: they're both still students, they both go to the same school, its just that they had different routes there.

I like the idea of being out, of raising awareness that hey, we're here, but I have concerns about the way trans gender-markers work on this forum.

[Heliomance]

The one labelled Intersex does work fairly well as a non binary marker though - it displays as a purple circle with both the Mars and Venus symbols on.

[Jormengand]

The one labelled Intersex does work fairly well as a non binary marker though - it displays as a purple circle with both the Mars and Venus symbols on.

I would use it if it weren't called the intersex symbol on the forum. That's my main issue with it.

[Troacctid]

Yeah, I believe it even says "Intersex" when you mouse over it.

[Inevitability]

Yeah, I believe it even says "Intersex" when you mouse over it.

It does.

I'd say this is indeed worth mentioning to the moderators. A gender field that can be just filled in seems fine to me; we don't have a drop-down list of countries you can pick from for the 'location' field either, do we?

[Razade]

I imagine it is even less of a priority than the name changing thread personally. The option not to select one of the options is available to everyone.

[noparlpf]

I think they didn't want to do a text field for gender (or sexuality) because those are the ones trolls tend to abuse more than location.

I do think that it would be worth adding a marker for nonbinary/genderqueer and/or agender/gender-neutral, but from a website designer's perspective I would imagine there's only so far you can go with manually adding new specific options before switching to a text field, and if it's already been decided that a text field is a no-go then they're probably going to be more hesitant to start adding new specific options.

[Inevitability]

I think they didn't want to do a text field for gender (or sexuality) because those are the ones trolls tend to abuse more than location.

Trolls tend to abuse regular posts more than the location field. Does that mean we should disallow regular posts? No; we let people post whatever they want, but punish them appropriately if they fail to stick to the rules regarding said posts.

[Razade]

Trolls tend to abuse regular posts more than the location field. Does that mean we should disallow regular posts? No; we let people post whatever they want, but punish them appropriately if they fail to stick to the rules regarding said posts.

What noparlpf said doesn't lead to that extreme. It's harder to report things that aren't posts for one. There's no Report function for people's location/gender tab. It's hard enough for the Mods to get to every reported thread, let alone giving them more work having to police peoples avatars and locations and gender slots. When they don't even have to provide either of the latter two. They didn't have to add MtF and FtM and Intersex, that was done at the behest of the vocal LGTBQ group here on this forum, it as a nicety and it still wasn't enough apparently.

[Jormengand]

What noparlpf said doesn't lead to that extreme. It's harder to report things that aren't posts for one. There's no Report function for people's location/gender tab. It's hard enough for the Mods to get to every reported thread, let alone giving them more work having to police peoples avatars and locations and gender slots.

One can report a post to alert the mods of a signature- or location-based rule breaking.

When they don't even have to provide either of the latter two. They didn't have to add MtF and FtM and Intersex, that was done at the behest of the vocal LGTBQ group here on this forum, it as a nicety and it still wasn't enough apparently.

Well, I hear that not all people are male, female, MtF, FtM or intersex (which is a list which contains two-and-two-halves genders and one-and-two-halves sexes, which is slightly odd for a "Gender" field anyway).

[Asmodean_]

If it's that important, just put it in your signature or location?