Erfworld Thread IX: By the Flower and Gray Skull

[eschmenk]

Ha! Double Ninja'd.

I was actually intending to add the thought that Ansom hadn't stacked at that point, so I don't think he would have gotten any bonus from Vinny yet.

[Razade]

Well whadda know. Might be Parson's then.

[eschmenk]

My only little quibble is that I wish there was more show instead of tell during the fight after reparating Ansom. I just miss the big panels and long paragraphs of exciting combat. :3 Still was a decent good update. Yeah, that Ansom/Vinnie moment was nice. I do miss those too.

I thought this was a very good update. But I'm not sure why you why you are saying "I wish there was more show instead of tell during the fight after reparating Ansom. I just miss the big panels and long paragraphs of exciting combat." Even if there were more "show", there still wouldn't have been any exciting combat to show. What there would have been to show would have just been boring (and unpleasant, at least to me), so I'm glad we didn't see it. How much did we need to see Faq executing the captured troops at GK city one-by-one? This wouldn't have been all that much different. Granted, in this case, Faq's troops weren't captured first, but they were still being slaughtered rather methodically one at a time or two at a time or so. It's easy enough to picture what that might be like. It might have been slightly exciting when they were "raking the archery off the walls," but with the bats to screen, it shouldn't have been very exciting.

If the fighting were changed so that there would have been some exciting combat to show, that would have ruined things, IMO. After all, there shouldn't have been any exciting combat in that situation. Vinny arranged things so Vinny could mow down the enemy in the most unexciting way possible. That's simply what a good TV warlord should do in circumstance like that. I would rather have Vinny look good than having unnecessary exciting combat that made Vinny look bad. The rough start Vinny had (a few updates ago) was enough of that, I thought, even though that wasn't much.

[Aquillion]

Yeah, the "three" is him realizing that Parson is CW again. That's why he tells Vinnie he knows the score by then (probably better than Vinnie does) - he's figured out that Parson pulled something.

[DigoDragon]

I thought this was a very good update. But I'm not sure why you why you are saying "I wish there was more show instead of tell during the fight after reparating Ansom. I just miss the big panels and long paragraphs of exciting combat." Even if there were more "show", there still wouldn't have been any exciting combat to show. What there would have been to show would have just been boring (and unpleasant, at least to me), so I'm glad we didn't see it. How much did we need to see Faq executing the captured troops at GK city one-by-one? This wouldn't have been all that much different. Granted, in this case, Faq's troops weren't captured first, but they were still being slaughtered rather methodically one at a time or two at a time or so. It's easy enough to picture what that might be like. It might have been slightly exciting when they were "raking the archery off the walls," but with the bats to screen, it shouldn't have been very exciting.

If the fighting were changed so that there would have been some exciting combat to show, that would have ruined things, IMO. After all, there shouldn't have been any exciting combat in that situation. Vinny arranged things so Vinny could mow down the enemy in the most unexciting way possible. That's simply what a good TV warlord should do in circumstance like that. I would rather have Vinny look good than having unnecessary exciting combat that made Vinny look bad. The rough start Vinny had (a few updates ago) was enough of that, I thought, even though that wasn't much.

It can still be exciting, the description of units trying to strike Ansom and Vinny, missing by a hair's breadth before being cut down. Pikemen swatting at bats helplessly and being lifted off the ground, flailing their legs. Hails of arrows whizzing by the heroes, so close, yet just not touching them. Perhaps one unit crits, and actually does land a blow! It would add a little extra amusement on that "anyone can crit" remark Vinny says later. Even if the battle is one-sided, the losing team missing their marks can still read like they are swinging dangerously close to the fences. It's all in how you describe the fight.

[-D-]

Considering we haven't had consecutive comic updates yet this year, I hope you give good odds in the event of a bet.

I'm going to go all in and test my predictamancy again - Friday (if it ships) - Text update.

My only little quibble is that I wish there was more show instead of tell during the fight after reparating Ansom. I just miss the big panels and long paragraphs of exciting combat. :3 Still was a decent good update. Yeah, that Ansom/Vinnie moment was nice. I do miss those too.

Same. Comic pages are easier to read and flow better. But I also agree. Ansom & Vinnie is a great team up.

[Douglas]

It can still be exciting, the description of units trying to strike Ansom and Vinny, missing by a hair's breadth before being cut down. Pikemen swatting at bats helplessly and being lifted off the ground, flailing their legs. Hails of arrows whizzing by the heroes, so close, yet just not touching them. Perhaps one unit crits, and actually does land a blow! It would add a little extra amusement on that "anyone can crit" remark Vinny says later. Even if the battle is one-sided, the losing team missing their marks can still read like they are swinging dangerously close to the fences. It's all in how you describe the fight.

In this case, "swinging dangerously close" would have been directly counter to the point. It was, intentionally, a one sided curb stomp massacre.

[Anteros]

Unsurprisingly, I liked this chapter. Ansom and Vinnie are my two favorite characters, so it's good to see them back together.

[guttering flame]

Was Vinnie already shown accepting Ansom's personhood in a past update? After Jillian's rude dismissal of it I expected Vinnie to reflect on it.

[Legato Endless]

Was Vinnie already shown accepting Ansom's personhood in a past update? After Jillian's rude dismissal of it I expected Vinnie to reflect on it.

Vinne has a lot on his mind. Also, he's much more compassionate than Jillian is, his talk with Albert about the soldier's death for example. He doesn't seem the type to yell at you about how you aren't a person.

[Lethologica]

That's your opinion. I don't agree with it. Sometimes people transfer their anger over one thing into another thing. TV and Vinny didn't really care who won, so Vinny didn't have any reason to be angry. It was just something convenient to transfer Vinny's anger into and yell at Ansom about. People get angry and yell (or think angry thoughts) at other people over things they don't really care about all the time. ("And you're a fat pig!") That's all this seemed to be, IMO. (Yes, momentarily they are angry about that, but it's not really what the anger is about.)

Well, yes, but I wasn't talking about indications. I was talking about what's going on behind the scenes.

Sometimes trying to pry out a hidden meaning can distract from what's taking place right in front of you.

First, Vinny and TV didn't care about Royalty the way Ansom did, but they did care about taking down Stanley, and Vinny certainly did care who won. So that's a start. There is more to Vinny's reaction than that, but it's a genuine pain point.

Second, Vinny's mad because he's been stewing at the center of the conflict between Don's support of Jillian and Caesar's hostility/distrust towards her, plus Vinny's own feelings for her (and now Albert), since TBfGK. There is tons of evidence for this in Vinny's attitude since TBfGK. The failure at TBfGK is a big obvious "and that was when everything started to change" moment, and if it had gone differently (Vinny rationalizes) none of this would be happening. So that's another part of his anger at Ansom, which is explicitly called out in the text.

A third part is that Ansom is here, and playing a big role in this new betrayal, and so Vinny associates him with that as well.

There is no evidence of a behind-the-scenes Jillian jealousy issue. Where Jillian comes in is with the Vinny-Caesar-Don dynamic. Ansom doesn't figure into it.

IDK. Before Ansom was mentioned, Vinny quite reasonably wrote, "...but still a bad bet, imo." With Ansom and his +.45 to the chances, he couldn't possibly say that. That's enough for him to think, "If not for you, I could have talked Caesar out of it." That could be lumped into the topsy-turviness, though.

I think we basically agree on this; I just don't think Vinny actually went to the point of thinking about the odds.

I also agree with you that there's basically no point making a big show of capturing Faq. Clearing the air defenses was already a big show. Deciding to bring in Ansom was shown twice for some reason. Giving more screentime to the mop-up work would just further slow the already-ponderous pace.

[eschmenk]

First, Vinny and TV didn't care about Royalty the way Ansom did, but they did care about taking down Stanley, and Vinny certainly did care who won. So that's a start. There is more to Vinny's reaction than that, but it's a genuine pain point.

I read those pages differently. IMO, the first one is all about Ansom's motivations. Vinny can understand why Stanley would be an enemy someone would retaliate against, but doesn't understand why someone would become emotionally committed to destroying him. IMO, the second is all about both Jillian and Vinny grieving specifically over Ansom; I don't think either was grieving over loosing the battle or anyone other than Ansom. I think it would be hard for Vinny to be angry at Ansom for getting himself killed, given that it was such a huge unpredictable disaster. Nonetheless, I could have believed that interpretation if Vinny's angry thoughts had included that thought, but they didn't seem to.

Second, Vinny's mad because he's been stewing at the center of the conflict between Don's support of Jillian and Caesar's hostility/distrust towards her, plus Vinny's own feelings for her (and now Albert), since TBfGK. There is tons of evidence for this in Vinny's attitude since TBfGK. The failure at TBfGK is a big obvious "and that was when everything started to change" moment, and if it had gone differently (Vinny rationalizes) none of this would be happening. So that's another part of his anger at Ansom, which is explicitly called out in the text.

That's your interpretation of what is being called out in the text. I don't see it that way. I think Vinny has been mostly happy since TBfGK. He got together with Jillian and (more-or-less) had a son that he's proud of. Yes, things weren't perfect, and things were a lot more complicated than Vinny realized (he seemed kind of gullible about that, actually), but things didn't seem to go haywire in his eyes until Ansom showed up unexpectedly. I don't see much in the way of signs that Vinny has been "stewing at the center of the conflict between Don's support of Jillian and Caesar's hostility/distrust towards her." Vinny seemed to chalk what did happen up to normal palace drama and not worry about it. Vinny even seemed to be rather oblivious to the fact that TV could have some concerns about Jillian's actions. Telling Don, "Maybe she wants to team up with Caesar and take back Aqua Velva," doesn't sound like something someone who was stewing over a conflict between Caesar and Don over Jillian would say.

I don't think your interpretations are unreasonable, but mine are different in these two areas.

[Doran]

FYI: There's an effort on the Erfworld forums to nominate Xin Ye and Lauri Ahonen as joint Best Graphic Artist for the Hugo Awards.

[eschmenk]

New Comic

Well, no one can complain that it's too wordy.

Spoiler

Show

Jillian is still in the former GK city and presumably her army is, too. Maybe we'll see if they all survived and if the Giants are still bound to Jillian by whatever contract they had with Faq.

[Binks]

Looks like we're in no rush to make any progress in the comic :P. Nice looking update, but it really doesn't bring anything new to the table. Happy slightly singed Vinny is pretty funny to see though.

So whose viewpoint are we switching to on Tuesday? I'm guessing Wanda, something introspective and flashback-y.

[eschmenk]

Happy slightly singed Vinny is pretty funny to see though.

I don't think we saw a genuinely happy Vinny. At the top is a "We can all get along now, right?" face, I think. I'm pretty sure that he was a lot more worried than he was letting on. The sizzled skank's face is probably showing the feelings more accurately.

Caesar, OTOH...

[JeenLeen]

Spoiler

Show

Y'all think Albert decided not to turn? I found it hard to tell based on just the expressions, but from where he's flying and how Vinny looks sad in the last picture, that's my guess.

I'm disappointed, if so. Albert's a bit of a jerk, but I find it a kind of endearing immature jerkiness, and I'd like him to be on the same side (general side, not Side side) as Parson and same Side as Vinny.

[eschmenk]

Spoiler

Show

Y'all think Albert decided not to turn? I found it hard to tell based on just the expressions, but from where he's flying and how Vinny looks sad in the last picture, that's my guess.

I'm disappointed, if so. Albert's a bit of a jerk, but I find it a kind of endearing immature jerkiness, and I'd like him to be on the same side (general side, not Side side) as Parson and same Side as Vinny.

Yes. It seems pretty clear to me.

BTW, I'm not disappointed. If Albert had agreed to switch so easily, it wouldn't have seemed realistic and that would have been disappointing, to me anyway. I feel sure that what will happen will be more complicated than just asking Albert to turn and having Albert say yes.

[Douglas]

Caesar looks positively gleeful, and Benjamin appears to at least be content with how things have turned out. Vinny may have mixed feelings about betraying Jillian, but I think Vanna's the only one in Transylvito who's truly unhappy with Don's death and the new alliance with Gobwin Knob.

Jillian is of course shocked and sad, but at least she's not throwing a violent fit over it, like when she almost attacked Caesar back when Ansom died.

[Bobb]

Yes. It seems pretty clear to me.

BTW, I'm not disappointed. If Albert had agreed to switch so easily, it wouldn't have seemed realistic and that would have been disappointing, to me anyway. I feel sure that what will happen will be more complicated than just asking Albert to turn and having Albert say yes.

Yeah. It speaks better of his nature for him not to turn at the drop of a hat. At the same time, if Jillian writes him off again the groundwork has been laid for him to be open to spinning off a new side or possibly even turning to TV.

I'm remembering when he almost-sort-of asked Vinny if TV would take him in if he was to turn.

[eschmenk]

Caesar looks positively gleeful, and Benjamin appears to at least be content with how things have turned out.

Yeah. I got kind of a bad vibe from that actually. Benjamin didn't worry me--he is no doubt happy because of all the smuckers TV just gained, as expected. The problem was that Caesar seemed a little too happy and also that the bracer is there, but Parson isn't. (And the normal vampire and gangster signamancy doesn't help.) Just from that one panel, I could imagine Caesar getting carried away and thinking that he won't need Parson anymore. Hopefully that's reading too much into just a single panel, though. I'm not really worried, yet.

Jillian is of course shocked and sad, but at least she's not throwing a violent fit over it, like when she almost attacked Caesar back when Ansom died.

Duncan is moving away from her, though. OK, he didn't actually have a worried look on his face, so no it's not that. But if he's going off to fetch that warlady prisoner (assuming she's still undusted), I wouldn't want to be in her shoes if she winds up facing any questioning from Jillian. (Yes, she already had to see a bunch of bad stuff, too.)

IDK, Vinny thought that Jillian was actually mellowing a little, so maybe she is. Or maybe it just was that she couldn't very well attack her ruler senses, which is what gave her the bad news this time. *shrug*

[Douglas]

Just from that one panel, I could imagine Caesar getting carried away and thinking that he won't need Parson anymore. Hopefully that's reading too much into just a single panel, though. I'm not really worried, yet.

That's not going to happen until either Bunny gets Decrypted or the possibility of Decrypted Bunny is permanently eliminated, if ever.

[Aquillion]

Vinne has a lot on his mind. Also, he's much more compassionate than Jillian is, his talk with Albert about the soldier's death for example. He doesn't seem the type to yell at you about how you aren't a person.

Also, unlike Jillian or Jetstone, Vinnie isn't really directly affected by Ansom changing sides.

Jillian and Jetstone both had an incentive to view Ansom as an unperson so they didn't have to confront how his relationship to them had changed. Vinnie's relationship to Ansom hasn't really been changed much by his decryption, so it's not really a huge deal for him.

(I suspect Vinnie also had a more clear-eyed understanding of the person Ansom was before, so he understands better than Jillian or Jetstone that the pro-Toolism Ansom isn't really as big of a change as they think - from Vinnie's perspective, Ansom just has a stick up his boop over something slightly different than before. Vinnie is equally indifferent to both Toolism and Royalism, so it doesn't seem like a huge change from his perspective. As far as Vinnie is concerned, Ansom used to go around beating people over the head with his title, now he goes around beating people over the head with Toolism.)

IDK, Vinny thought that Jillian was actually mellowing a little, so maybe she is. Or maybe it just was that she couldn't very well attack her ruler senses, which is what gave her the bad news this time. *shrug*

That was immediately followed by Ansom calling him out on it, which Vinnie acknowledged. I think we're supposed to read it as Vinnie trying to cast her in the best light and being forced to admit that, if anything, she's been getting worse.

[eschmenk]

That was immediately followed by Ansom calling him out on it, which Vinnie acknowledged. I think we're supposed to read it as Vinnie trying to cast her in the best light and being forced to admit that, if anything, she's been getting worse.

That could be, but the reason I'm a little dubious is that I'm pretty sure we were told at some point that her signamancy was softening. Granted, that could have just been something strictly physical in this case, but maybe not. And yes, there was at least one recent data point that indicated that she hadn't changed much.

[guttering flame]

That could be, but the reason I'm a little dubious is that I'm pretty sure we were told at some point that her signamancy was softening. Granted, that could have just been something strictly physical in this case, but maybe not. And yes, there was at least one recent data point that indicated that she hadn't changed much.

The gradual execution in GK city was the new Queen Jillian: cool, calculated focused instead of the hot headed barbarian who'd just kill them all in a pique when they refused her. Better leader? probably. Better person? Not so much.

[-D-]

Oh, God. I'm forgetting when this comic had word balloons.

[Wayson]

Oh, God. I'm forgetting when this comic had word balloons.

I'd argue that wordless scenes work better when you're not trying to show two or three tableaux at once. Like, Book 1's scene of the volcano. Only one focus but it communicates pretty clearly the devastation, terror, and shock as the event happens. Contrast with today's comic. There's a lot going on in this update, it's not clearly communicated (hard to tell what happened in Panel 1 to make Panel 4 look that way, we shouldn't have to guess), and as you note we're missing the word balloons from earlier books that added a lot of amusement or explanation. My personal favorite is the Walk... walk... walk... BALK from Panel 2 there. It's a static image that manages to convey purposeful forward motion followed by a sudden halt due to realization. Very efficient and keeps the comic from feeling like a collection of snapshots.... which the most recent update most definitely was.

[-D-]

@Wayson: Interesting notion. I am starting to feel that Rob is losing his knack for visual storytelling. It also is fits my theory the too many plot lines are unraveling the comic.

What surprised me was so many were confused by panel 1. And they are right. If you remove that panel, things actually make more sense. You see a sad dejected, Vinny. Not a happy -> sad Vinny.

[Welf]

@Wayson: Interesting notion. I am starting to feel that Rob is losing his knack for visual storytelling. It also is fits my theory the too many plot lines are unraveling the comic.

What surprised me was so many were confused by panel 1. And they are right. If you remove that panel, things actually make more sense. You see a sad dejected, Vinny. Not a happy -> sad Vinny.

I had that feeling for quite some time now. But I think it started with the text updates. It's easier to tell the story in text, so he started to shift the flow of the scenes to fit those.

[eschmenk]

The gradual execution in GK city was the new Queen Jillian: cool, calculated focused instead of the hot headed barbarian who'd just kill them all in a pique when they refused her. Better leader? probably. Better person? Not so much.

The gradual execution in GK city was a horrific experiment Jillian carried out because she's still obsessed with turning Ansom. Her emotions were behind it.

Oh, God. I'm forgetting when this comic had word balloons.

It was seven days ago. That's not that long ago.

What surprised me was so many were confused by panel 1. And they are right. If you remove that panel, things actually make more sense. You see a sad dejected, Vinny. Not a happy -> sad Vinny.

How many people were confused by panel 1? How dumbed-down do you think Erfworld should be? You keep complaining that Erfworld is not dumbed-down enough, but I prefer that it's not. Yes, it's more challenging to read than a lot of other comics (and more so than it used to be), but I prefer it this way. In this case, you are talking about dumbing it down to a rather ridiculous level, IMO. How hard is it to at least figure out the basics: that Vinny tried talking Albert into turning and then left disappointed?

Your change would remove the information that Vinny tried talking to Albert before leaving. Even if it made more sense to some people, it would leave out some important information. Dumbing the page down so much would cause a plot problem in addition to taking some of the fun (for me) out of the comic.