Erfworld Thread IX: By the Flower and Gray Skull

[Lethologica]

Because he wants to lose. He's still in love with Jillian, even after he caught her cheating on him. His head's not in the game.

At the least, he's too busy being conflicted over betraying Faq at all to properly manage the how of betraying Faq. He second-guesses his decision-making, he notes his errors as they're revealed, and he can't muster even the self-assurance to avoid rising to Albert's challenge.

[Jasdoif]

Not to me, it doesn't. You are speaking from hindsight. Speaking from experience in strategy games, it is very easy for important factors and ideas to simply not occur to someone until it's too late, or to overlook the importance of something even while knowing it exists, and then wonder later how you could possibly have missed something so obvious.

The one big mistake here is bringing in the bats too soon (should have waited for Albert to get farther away) and breaking alliance before they're in position. Vinnie notes in the update that he can't use the bats to screen because they're not close enough yet, and recognizes that this was a mistake.

I'd also question how much leeway Vinnie had. If Caesar ordered Vinnie to break alliance with any indication of timing (like if the order came by hat and used the word "immediately"), he might not have had the chance to prepare.

[Lizard Lord]

Because he wants to lose. He's still in love with Jillian, even after he caught her cheating on him. His head's not in the game.

Jillian didn't cheat on Vinny. For a second he almost thought she was but learned in the very same update that it was Vanna and Duncan getting frisky alone in the throne room.

[xroads]

Why the flip does Vinny take damage from the tower?
Like, seriously. What the flip?
He can land. End of story right here. No lost special units. No damage taken. Non trivial chance of losing TV's chief warlord is negated!
He can not break alliance until Albert is actually about to cross the hex boundary (he cares about him. I get it. Why not just have Albert start two hexes over? Or wait a few more nanoseconds before releasing the bats? or any number of other things you can do when you're sucker punching a closely allied side).
He has a flip ton of bats. Why doesn't he get them to screen for him?
Why doesn't he deploy his personal stack of bats to screen him at the start of hostilities?
Why doesn't he order his incoming bats to fly low so they're not noticed?
Why doesn't he break alliance in the part of the city he needs to conquer so he can take the bloody place without wasting the tower defenses and his bats that should be screening him?!

A lot those questions were answered in the update. He had to break alliance prematurely because the bats reinforcements were already arriving. Prince Albert had spotted them and was already turning around.

And he wanted the bats to screen him. But since he had to break prematurely, he didn't have that luxury.

Not sure having the bats fly in low would of really solved anything (or if is even possible). A black swarm carpeting the ground seems like it would still be noticed.

Not sure why the tower had to be taken from the air. Maybe he had to secure the city so that the garrison units were denied capital bonuses of some sort? I forget what the rules are on taking a city.

[-D-]

Anyone saw the latest Erfworld RPG?

I find it completely bonkers. The way Erfworld works is wordplay and puns. Having it encoded in game is like only being able to make puns, listed in the Book of Puns.

[DigoDragon]

The tower had some shockamancy. Those spells have already been cast. Vinny doesn't have a caster to reapply spells to the tower. Jillian has a army with guns that's large enough to take on GK (the entire side). Granted, Vinny probably has lots of bats, but we don't know how many. I think he would probably need heavy reinforcement if Jillian can come with her entire army.

Alright, nix the tower shock part. The bats look like an impressive swarm at least. And the condition of Jillian's army when it gets back could be questioned--Is she the type to note her capital fell and rush home to retake it, or will she charge headlong into Spacerock and take out as many GK units as she can before returning? She's about to lose her entire treasury, so how long can she afford to field that army anyway? I think in any scenario, Jill is gonna be hurting if she makes it back through this complication.

TLDR: Nice thinking, Ray.

Heh, classic. ^_^

[HandofShadows]

I wonder. Is Jillian about to become a barbarian again? The capital of Faq is going to fall. When that goes, Faq is gone. The only thing Jillian can do to save Faq as a side is to transfere the capital. But IIRC Stanely had to be in the capital in order to transfere it to Spacerock.

[JavaScribe]

I wonder. Is Jillian about to become a barbarian again? The capital of Faq is going to fall. When that goes, Faq is gone. The only thing Jillian can do to save Faq as a side is to transfere the capital. But IIRC Stanely had to be in the capital in order to transfere it to Spacerock.

We don't know for sure what happens when a side with multiple capitals loses its current one. It's possible Jillian will simply lose her treasury and it will automatically switch to I'm Coming for you Stanley. Even if that isn't the case, she can always reclaim it and start a new side.

[guttering flame]

I wonder. Is Jillian about to become a barbarian again? The capital of Faq is going to fall. When that goes, Faq is gone. The only thing Jillian can do to save Faq as a side is to transfere the capital. But IIRC Stanely had to be in the capital in order to transfere it to Spacerock.

She can create a side on GK I'm Coming to Get You Stanley city if she becomes barbarian.

[Douglas]

I would guess that a capital automatically relocates if captured when another capital site is available. The shenanigans with changing capitals during the Spacerock fight were done, on both sides, to trap or rescue Parson. Slately's double didn't consider changing the capital the least bit important until Charlie suggested it as a method to trap Parson, and he had to have known Spacerock was going to be lost soon.

[Bobb]

A lot those questions were answered in the update. He had to break alliance prematurely because the bats reinforcements were already arriving. Prince Albert had spotted them and was already turning around.

And he wanted the bats to screen him. But since he had to break prematurely, he didn't have that luxury.

This is patently false. He had the luxury of using his personal stack of bats to screen himself. The update immediately before this one shows, in the picture, bats over nearly the entire airspace of FAQ.

I also got the impression some of those extra bats were sent by hat but that could easily be wrong.

Not sure having the bats fly in low would of really solved anything (or if is even possible). A black swarm carpeting the ground seems like it would still be noticed.

Not sure why the tower had to be taken from the air. Maybe he had to secure the city so that the garrison units were denied capital bonuses of some sort? I forget what the rules are on taking a city.

The flying low thing was a random idea I thought of as I was typing as an example of making even a token effort of not getting killed by the tower defenses he was aware of!

And why no reply to my land-and-be-safe-from-tower-bolts-just-like-Caeser comment?

The tower doesn't even need to be taken. As we saw Jillian do so effortlessly so recently, the whole city goes down with the [garrison?- not sure, but there's only one blessed spot he needs to capture to get the whole of FAQ as prisoners]

[Bobb]

I'd also question how much leeway Vinnie had. If Caesar ordered Vinnie to break alliance with any indication of timing (like if the order came by hat and used the word "immediately"), he might not have had the chance to prepare.

This is good thinking.

If Parson didn't have Caesar's ear it might be possible.

If we didn't know how much trust in Vinny Caesar has it might be plausible.




oh, and the emotionally compromised stuff works for a sloppy takeover. It does not work for Vinny almost dying in the first ten seconds of starting an attack on a city he has the blueprints for, weeks to plan, and can practically command the enemy units positioning for.


Sorry that I'm being inconsolable here gang.

[Kareasint]

She can create a side on GK I'm Coming to Get You Stanley city if she becomes barbarian.

That was my thinking as well but the problem is that it may have a cost associated with it. She may not have the cash to do it since her treasury will belong to TV. Charlie would be the only source of cash at the moment.

[eschmenk]

He can land. End of story right here. No lost special units. No damage taken. Non trivial chance of losing TV's chief warlord is negated!

Digdug's tower shockamancy seemed to have attacked ground units. If flyers are a problem, I think the tower defenses are normally used on them, but I don't recall anything saying that the spells are limited to them.

Anyway, the story seemed believable to me. As Lethologica said, Vinny probably wasn't at his best. Not only was he conflicted, I don't think he's had all that much experience leading battles. As the update pointed out, trying to think like a Chief Warlord was a new experience for him.

She can create a side on GK I'm Coming to Get You Stanley city if she becomes barbarian.

Yes, but any Faq units not in her stack, except possibly units inside a city, would be disbanded. The Giants wouldn't be disbanded, but they might not choose to affiliate with whatever new side she forms if she can't immediately offer them a bunch of money to do so.

[Bobb]

Digdug's tower shockamancy seemed to have attacked ground units. If flyers are a problem, I think the tower defenses are normally used on them, but I don't recall anything saying that the spells are limited to them.

You're right. It's not stated that tower bolts can only hit fliers. Which would actually be really dumb. I was remembering that Caesar avoided hitting lots of spells the enemy shockamancer set up in the tower to take down fliers.

But I also thought FAQ was set up funky like everything is at the top of a mushroom so attackers get all messed up after the vertical advance via being funneled or something? Meaning lots of line of sight corners to hide behind?

I dunno. No matter how you slice it we are still dealing with:

"I break alliance"

"Ok Cwap! I am about to die!"

Good job level six badass who was the quickest to catch on to some of Parson's schemes and was in charge of intelligence recon for the entire Royal Coalition!

Anyway, the story seemed believable to me. As Lethologica said, Vinny probably wasn't at his best. Not only was he conflicted, I don't think he's had all that much experience leading battles. As the update pointed out, trying to think like a Chief Warlord was a new experience for him.

I agree to disagree. I also sort of get where you're coming from it just doesn't ring true for me.

[Scowling Dragon]

I wanted to get into erfworld but found decrypting one of the most repulsive and obscene things I have ever seen done, so I found myself incapable of rooting for the protagonists in any fashion.

Has anything changed since then?

[Razade]

I wanted to get into erfworld but found decrypting one of the most repulsive and obscene things I have ever seen done, so I found myself incapable of rooting for the protagonists in any fashion.

Has anything changed since then?

Has one of the central conflicts of the story been resolved? No.

[Anteros]

I wanted to get into erfworld but found decrypting one of the most repulsive and obscene things I have ever seen done, so I found myself incapable of rooting for the protagonists in any fashion.

Has anything changed since then?

Nah, they are still mostly awful people.

[-D-]

Nah, they are still mostly awful people.

To be fair, they were awful to begin with.

[Quild]

I wanted to get into erfworld but found decrypting one of the most repulsive and obscene things I have ever seen done, so I found myself incapable of rooting for the protagonists in any fashion.

Has anything changed since then?

Yes, there is worse since that.

But decrypting is basically a resurrection with a loyalty spell put on the target.
You learn later on that decrypted units can turn and change their side/mind again, so it's not a total control.

[Aquillion]

I wanted to get into erfworld but found decrypting one of the most repulsive and obscene things I have ever seen done, so I found myself incapable of rooting for the protagonists in any fashion.

Has anything changed since then?

That seems a bit extreme?

Remember, outside of a few specific situations (free casters in the magic kingdom, say), Erfworld is a world where freedom doesn't exist. From the moment you pop, you're subject to supernatural mind control in the form of Duty, and are subject to instant death at the slightest whim of your overlord. And it's a world of constant warfare, to the point where most people there don't believe it's possible for it to be any other way.

Decryption's mental effects seem to be identical to Turnamancy (they mind-control you and change your personality, bringing you back as a somewhat different person with different loyalty.) Having Ansom brought back as someone whose views are so radically different from what they were before might be creepy - but the "first" Ansom had much of his outlook imprinted on him by the magical effects of loyalty in the first place. Murdering someone just to decrypt them is clearly a pretty awful thing to do, but decrypting people who you'd have killed in combat anyway? I don't see it as particularly repulsive or obscene.

Honestly, killing them in the first place is more obscene to me.

(Also, the fact that decryption brings you back with no upkeep means that, in theory, someone who was decrypted could go barbarian and be genuinely, completely free, with no loyalty or responsibilities to anyone... at least as far as we know, anyway.)

And Ansom, the first Decrypted we see in any depth, is a more extreme case than most - his views changed so sharply because he saw the world in such extreme black-and-white to begin with. Other people, like Ace, don't seem to have changed very much at all - most Decrypted just seem to treat it as if someone else is paying their salary now. I read Ansom's post-decryption fanaticism as being more a product of the way his own personality works than something the pliers imposed on him.

[Scowling Dragon]

That seems a bit extreme?

Nope. If characters start doing awful stuff and Im not supposed to at least see them as loathsome, I loose interest. Decryption is awful.

Remember, outside of a few specific situations (free casters in the magic kingdom, say), Erfworld is a world where freedom doesn't exist.

So the conflict is boring and dull then, and not worth my time. Why should I feel bad for any character personally if its just a choice of which tyrants hat they get to wear? Because (From what I read in the wiki) Charlies brand of violating mind control is worse then Wandas Brand of Violating Mind Control? Or something?

Nah, they are still mostly awful people.

But yeah, thanks for telling me, Il continue to not stick with the rest of the show.

[Kantaki]

To be fair, they were awful to begin with.

To be fair, they are no worse than everyone else on Erf.

[HandofShadows]

To be fair, they are no worse than everyone else on Erf.

They are no worse than people in real life either.

[MReav]

I wanted to get into erfworld but found decrypting one of the most repulsive and obscene things I have ever seen done, so I found myself incapable of rooting for the protagonists in any fashion.

Has anything changed since then?

That the antagonists, the allies of the protagonists and other factions that have yet to be determined managed to soil themselves in similar fashions, and now you are hoping that Parson burns everything down save a few morally salvageable characters, himself not included?

[Leewei]

New update

Spoiler: Crackpot Theory

Show

The fact that bedrock is more than a small layer over a void (as it is in Minecraft) suggests that it may be serving another purpose in the Magic Kingdom. Plenty of fantasy fiction has themes about digging too deep and unleashing ancient evils. Perhaps the Titans use this area for storing leftovers from older worlds? If so, such a remnant could explain the missing supplies and the killing of the two casters.

[JavaScribe]

New update

Spoiler: Crackpot Theory

Show

The fact that bedrock is more than a small layer over a void (as it is in Minecraft) suggests that it may be serving another purpose in the Magic Kingdom. Plenty of fantasy fiction has themes about digging too deep and unleashing ancient evils. Perhaps the Titans use this area for storing leftovers from older worlds? If so, such a remnant could explain the missing supplies and the killing of the two casters.

Spoiler

Show

I guess, but why now and not when they first started digging the thing? The GMs are the most likely answer.

Charlie went to all the trouble of moving that stuff. Wonder why Charlie didn't destroy the bodies.

[aurilee]

New update

Spoiler: Crackpot Theory

Show

The fact that bedrock is more than a small layer over a void (as it is in Minecraft) suggests that it may be serving another purpose in the Magic Kingdom. Plenty of fantasy fiction has themes about digging too deep and unleashing ancient evils. Perhaps the Titans use this area for storing leftovers from older worlds? If so, such a remnant could explain the missing supplies and the killing of the two casters.

Spoiler

Show

So......balrog? Ok, sure. ;)

But it'll probably just be the action figure

[Lethologica]

Spoiler

Show

Bodies don't depop "on the island?" Remind me where that is? Does Wanda have a supply of other Decrypted to draw on?

[Grim Portent]

Spoiler

Show

Bodies don't depop "on the island?" Remind me where that is? Does Wanda have a supply of other Decrypted to draw on?

The Magic Kingdom is an island in the middle of an undisclosed ocean. It has apparently never been approached by sea.

Based on the fact that moneyless casters go to the shore to die, spending their last turn looking at the sun set over the ocean it seems like bodies not depopping is the sort of thing that should have been verified easily, unless no one ever bothers to go there and say goodbye and notice the mountain of corpses left behind by bodies not going away over the past few thousand turns. If those bodies are still there it'd be an army of hundreds or thousands of decrypted casters, which seems unlikely.