Elder Scrolls XII: Twelve Worlds of Creation

[Celestia]

Here's the thing, though: Nocturnal isn't getting your soul. You are the mortal reincarnation of Talos. When you die, you are rejoining his divinity. None of the Daedra have the power or influence to take your soul, not even if you specifically made a deal to that effect. No one in game says anything about this because no one knows. And you don't comment on it because why advertise that you're pulling a fast one on a Daedra?

[Triaxx]

Technically Nocturnal's only hold is a contract to show up and stab people in the face when they threaten the Sanctuary, which the Dragonborn would probably do anyway for fun.

[Yuki Akuma]

Here's the thing, though: Nocturnal isn't getting your soul. You are the mortal reincarnation of Talos. When you die, you are rejoining his divinity.

Where exactly are you getting this from?

[DigoDragon]

It was never a punishment, its just a thing that happens.

Well, alright. Still feels nonsensical to do that rather than go champion someone to retrieve the artifact. If it weren't for Karliah...

Several of the other princes seem to have better priorities in their mind. Even if they're still jerks.

[Ogremindes]

I'm feeling about done with my vampire character. Not feeling done with Skyrim yet though. I'm thinking of making a Redguard swordsman, in no small part as an answer to the question of what kind of non-Nord would side with the Stormcloaks.

Anyway, I'm thinking of adding survival mode this time. I'm looking at Campfire and Frostfall, but that's not a complete package in itself. Anyone messed around much with this sort of stuff in Special Edition?

[Yuki Akuma]

Well, alright. Still feels nonsensical to do that rather than go champion someone to retrieve the artifact. If it weren't for Karliah...

Several of the other princes seem to have better priorities in their mind. Even if they're still jerks.

Why do you think she cares? The situation affects the Thieves' Guild far more than it affects her. She's an immortal being with other things to worry about than the affairs of mortals on Mundus - and anyway, Mercer is going to die in sixty years or so, if he doesn't become unworthy of the Skeleton Key and lose it long before then. She'll get it back eventually.

[factotum]

I'm thinking of making a Redguard swordsman, in no small part as an answer to the question of what kind of non-Nord would side with the Stormcloaks.

Any kind of non-Nord who hated the Empire and wanted it to go away would be happy to side with the Stormcloaks, surely?

[Triaxx]

iNeed and Realistic Needs and Diseases are the big ones for LE, I don't know if either have made the jump to SE.

I've had a few characters who were non-Nords that joined, mostly because they felt a new Empire free of both old treaties, and entrenched governments would be beneficial. While they might not have agreed with all of Ulfric's sentiments, they agreed the Empire needed a good shaking up.

[LibraryOgre]

Yeah, I really hate that quest for that reason. You go into a "haunted house" in the belief you're helping out this guy, and then find that you ain't getting back *out* without killing him, no matter what? I mean, if he turned on you as soon as you walked in the door and said it was a trick all along, or else revealed he was Molag Bal's patsy just before getting struck down, that would at least give you the small comfort of "he deserves to die", but you don't get that.

If you wait long enough, he'll break and attack you. I just did that last night.

[VoxRationis]

Indeed, he will attack you and your only real option is to kill him. But then the rest of the quest has you going along with Molag Bal even when given the option to leave, and never is there an option to resolve the quest in a different way (say, by telling the Jarl what's going on and having him cordon off the house, or contacting the Vigilants for more reinforcements, or finding a way to purge the house of Bal's influence). You either ignore the quest indefinitely or you do a 180 and go from "I'll gladly help fight the influence of the Daedra" to "Yes, Lord Bal. All shall be as you command it."

[VoxRationis]

Not at all. There's only one (The House of Horrors) that requires you to do anything shady. The others all allow you either to complete the quest in multiple ways, or simply walk away at any stage without penalty, and without shutting you out of anything else. (Well, A Night To Remember is a partial exception - if you don't complete it, then your dialogues with some NPCs will be stuck in a weird state - but it's not like any of those NPCs are particularly important anyway.)

Quests you can complete fully without even slightly endangering your paladin status:

• The Black Star
• Waking Nightmare (siding with Earandur, obviously)
• The Cursed Tribe
• The Break of Dawn
• The Mind of Madness

Quests you can complete by doing something slightly questionable, but no worse than minor burglary or lying:

• Ill Met by Moonlight
• Pieces of the Past
• The Taste of Death
• A Daedra's Best Friend
• A Night to Remember

Quests that allow you to go just as far as you like, but still walk away at any point without missing out on anything else:

• The Whispering Door
• Boethia's Calling
• Discerning the Transmundane
• The Only Cure

The quest that railroads you into a violent confrontation, but since it literally gives you no choices at all you can't really call it a moral 180 anyway:

• The House of Horrors

And finally, a category unto itself: the quest that requires you to give away your soul, otherwise it freezes you out of completing an entire questline that you've already invested way too much time in:

• All of Nocturnal's Crap

Point. Few require you to pull a 180 to finish the quest. However, what I was trying to get at was that for many items, if you want the Daedric item itself (so finishing the quest along the pathway leading to acquiring the item), you end up exhibiting this 180. The House of Horrors, The Whispering Door, The Taste of Death, A Daedra's Best Friend, Waking Nightmare... Someone with the mindset of "I worship the Daedra, I want to wield their artifacts" would not accept any of these quests unless they were prescient, because they all involve going out of your way to help people. Only later does the option to go down the Daedra-worshiping artifact collector route become available, and a person consistently roleplayed wouldn't take those routes, because the sort of person who would do the sort of terrible things you need to get them, or who would want to wield such items as "The Skull of Corruption," would never have accepted the quest under its initial parameters. By playing these quests to those conclusions, the Dragonborn ends up being perhaps the most suggestible person ever, willing to risk life and limb for other people's benefit after being asked politely once but eager to turn on them at the merest suggestion of profiting by their demise.

[Triaxx]

Ah, looks like all three big need mods have already made the jump. iNeed, Realistic Needs and Diseases, and the slightly insane Imps More Complex Needs.

Alternately, if you want a slightly less hardcore survival experience: Super Simple Needs looks to be exactly that.

[Winter_Wolf]

Indeed, he will attack you and your only real option is to kill him. But then the rest of the quest has you going along with Molag Bal even when given the option to leave, and never is there an option to resolve the quest in a different way (say, by telling the Jarl what's going on and having him cordon off the house, or contacting the Vigilants for more reinforcements, or finding a way to purge the house of Bal's influence). You either ignore the quest indefinitely or you do a 180 and go from "I'll gladly help fight the influence of the Daedra" to "Yes, Lord Bal. All shall be as you command it."

Well big MB, his whole schtick is domination and being The A-hole. I've no problem walking out of that house and letting the quest hang indefinitely. He's never come after me or tried to coerce me to finish his quest on account. Before I figure out how to NOT get sucked into that miserable quest I haven't had to do it in any way. I did do it once by choice after because the character was openly unstable and gave zero craps about massive "wanted dead or deader" bounties.

[VoxRationis]

Spoiler: D.M.M.N., Intercalary Chapter I

Show

Intercalary Chapter I
Following Bleak Falls Barrow, I traveled to Whiterun, shortly north of that tomb, for several purposes. The first, obviously, was to rest, gather supplies, sell certain valuable items possessed by the bandits my expedition had to fight through, and prepare for the next expedition. The second was to gather more information about the practices of Nords. To this end I visited the Hall of the Dead in Whiterun. Its present form is of fairly recent construction, wood and ashlar in the fashion of the rest of the city, but entering it revealed architecture in the exact forms exhibited in Bleak Falls Barrow.
The catacombs of Whiterun are largely two megalithic vaults, built of the same forms exhibited in the megalithic halls of Bleak Falls Barrow, parallel to one another and connected with two stairs. Two small chambers have been added to these vaults, one on the western end of the first hallway and the other extending northward from the east corner of the second hallway. These chambers are similar in architecture to the quarter-turn chambers found in Bleak Falls Barrow, with smooth, single-stone surfaces but elliptical floorplans, with the single entryway to each chamber in the middle of the long curve of the ellipse. Incidentally, the catacombs exhibit a tendency to spontaneously animate the dead interred within, though these are skeletons rather than preserved corpses, as the draugr are.
It is my intent to tour the Halls of the Dead of modern Nord settlements, even as I tour the ancient burial crypts, that I might compare current burial practices with those of ancient times.
My third task in Whiterun was to make good on a promise I made to Alvor of Riverwood, to inform the count, or Jarl, of the dragon attack at Helgen. Privately, I believe that the Jarl would surely have learned of the dragon, flying north as it did from Helgen, long before I could have reached it, and thus I only came to this task as it suited my convenience. When I gave this news to the Jarl, he then proceeded to assign me a task, which he called "suitable for someone of [my] particular talents." Not entirely sure about what he thought my talents were, or indeed what task he thought was appropriate for a student of architecture, I followed him to his wizard, Farengar, who proceeded to condescendingly give me the task of finding the "Dragonstone" of Bleak Falls Barrow. The serendipity of coming here after visiting that very site was most pleasing to me. The stone, which was carried on the person of the draugr in the main cavern-chamber of the barrow, is pentagonal in shape and carries an etched map of Skyrim, covered in stars. The similarity of modern borders of Skyrim to those found in antiquity is notable. Farengar explained, before I revealed to him that I already had the stone, that the Dragonstone is a map of the burial sites of dragons. He was less revealing about the nature of Bleak Falls Barrow, or how he came to learn that the Dragonstone was to be found there.
Shortly thereafter, Irileth, the count's bodyguard, essentially press-ganged me into coming with a squadron of guards to respond to a dragon's attack on Whiterun's outer defenses. The dragon attacked fiercely, but the terrain was perfect for the guards, Faendal, and Irileth to spread out and pepper it with arrows. I even got a few hits in with my fists when it landed and closed to melee! This killed the beast, whose flesh then proceeded to immolate, and a conduit of energy leapt between its body and my person. From witnessing this, one of the guards, who had never seen a dragon before, concluded that I must be Dragonborn, like Tiber Septim. I scoffed at the idea, my family being of no known relation to Alessia, Reman Cyrodiil, or the Septim line, but at his behest, I attempted to Shout. The word I had learned in Bleak Falls Barrow leapt to my mind, and as I said it, it manifested as a wave of power extending from my mouth. The guards concluded that I had stolen the dragon's power, and though my shout seemed anemic compared with the gouts of flame that came from the dragon, I wasn't inclined to dispute that I had indeed grown in power after the dragon fell.
I returned to Whiterun's castle, Dragonsreach, only to find that a group of Nord monks known as Greybeards, sharing the belief that I am Dragonborn, have summoned me to their monastery. The dragon itself was already a needless distraction, however, so I resolved not to go, at least for the short term. In Dragonsreach, however, Jarl Balgruuf declared that my "service" was to be rewarded, and granted me the title of Thane. This apparently comes with a sworn bodyguard, one Lydia, a seasoned warrior whose melee capability shall surely prove better against draugr in confined spaces than Faendal's hunting skills. Thereafter, I began my preparations for my next excursion.

[factotum]

Before I figure out how to NOT get sucked into that miserable quest I haven't had to do it in any way.

But that, in itself, is completely against the spirit of roleplaying--you're relying on out-of-character information (e.g. "If I speak to this Vigilant I'll end up killing him for no good reason") to stay as a "Good" character. Any truly Good character upon being asked to help clear out evil spirits from a house would jump at the chance, but that then leads you into killing the Vigilant--and no, I don't think it's sufficient to salve your conscience that he attacks you first, since he's clearly doing so under duress.

[veti]

Point. Few require you to pull a 180 to finish the quest. However, what I was trying to get at was that for many items, if you want the Daedric item itself (so finishing the quest along the pathway leading to acquiring the item), you end up exhibiting this 180. The House of Horrors, The Whispering Door, The Taste of Death, A Daedra's Best Friend, Waking Nightmare... Someone with the mindset of "I worship the Daedra, I want to wield their artifacts" would not accept any of these quests unless they were prescient, because they all involve going out of your way to help people.

True. If you want to play the wittingly-daedra-worshipping nutjob, then you have to insert a bit of external knowledge. However, you can rationalise this as your character being able to "smell" or otherwise sense when daedric influence is at play. (In Waking Nightmare, The Taste of Death, The Whispering Door, The House of Horrors, it's fair to say that those pretty much reek of daedric influence from the get-go. The only one that really seems a stretch is A Daedra's Best Friend, which ostensibly begins with agreeing to catch a wild dog.)

But that, in itself, is completely against the spirit of roleplaying--you're relying on out-of-character information (e.g. "If I speak to this Vigilant I'll end up killing him for no good reason") to stay as a "Good" character. Any truly Good character upon being asked to help clear out evil spirits from a house would jump at the chance, but that then leads you into killing the Vigilant--and no, I don't think it's sufficient to salve your conscience that he attacks you first, since he's clearly doing so under duress.

No, what salves your conscience is that you're acting in self-defence and your choices are, literally (1) to kill him, or (2) to let him kill you. Or, of course, (3) to use the power of CHIM to reload from your last save or autosave before you agreed to help him.

I agree, it's not a very satisfactory salve, and a paladin would probably feel the need of some serious atonement and penance afterwards. But then, remember who Molag Bal is. Talk to Serana, she can probably help you put it in perspective.

[LibraryOgre]

So, an aside, are there any Vigilants of Stendarr in Skyrim who aren't massive tools?

[Triaxx]

The random ones on the road, either fighting Vampires, or offering to cure your diseases instead of making you find a shrine/potion.

[Winter_Wolf]

But that, in itself, is completely against the spirit of roleplaying--you're relying on out-of-character information (e.g. "If I speak to this Vigilant I'll end up killing him for no good reason") to stay as a "Good" character. Any truly Good character upon being asked to help clear out evil spirits from a house would jump at the chance, but that then leads you into killing the Vigilant--and no, I don't think it's sufficient to salve your conscience that he attacks you first, since he's clearly doing so under duress.

True enough, for one definition of "good". I generally don't go near Markarth until rather late in the game and up to my elbows in Alduin. At that point I feel like it's where I should be able to say something to the effect of, "you're certainly a capable looking fellow and I would love to help you. I just need to finish saving the world and then I'll be along promptly."

It then again I don't particularly see the problem in smashing that guy once we're trapped in the house. It's ham handed and you're being forced into it. But I can get indignant, or just push it off as "Molag Bal is an ass." Or both. But mostly I just don't give much thought to Markarth so it rarely comes up.

[Triaxx]

I just sort of stay out of Markarth entirely. Season Unending means I never have to go near the place. (Yes, I have to go in for the Thieves, but that's not really anything to do with the parts I can't stand.)

Also, Markarth is the only city in the game with two Daedric Quests I believe. A hive of Scum and Villainy if I ever saw one.

[VoxRationis]

I just sort of stay out of Markarth entirely. Season Unending means I never have to go near the place. (Yes, I have to go in for the Thieves, but that's not really anything to do with the parts I can't stand.)

Also, Markarth is the only city in the game with two Daedric Quests I believe. A hive of Scum and Villainy if I ever saw one.

Why does Season Unending mean you never have to go to Markarth?

It's actually not that uncommon: Dawnstar has the Skull of Corruption and Mehrunes' Razor; Falkreath has the quests for both Hircine and Clavicus Vile. To say nothing of the quests, like A Night to Remember, that could crop up anywhere.

Edit: My issue with Markarth is that, like Riften, the place is filled with corruption which you can't cleanse, but fails at portraying the corruption as some broad systemic issue beyond the ability of any individual to address. The causes of the social ills in the city are pretty obvious straight from the beginning, and most of them come down to "there are a few people here with a ton of power, and they're terrible people on every level." That kind of problem is the sort of thing that a questing hero should be able to put to rest easily, but the game won't let you.

[Keltest]

Why does Season Unending mean you never have to go to Markarth?

It's actually not that uncommon: Dawnstar has the Skull of Corruption and Mehrunes' Razor; Falkreath has the quests for both Hircine and Clavicus Vile. To say nothing of the quests, like A Night to Remember, that could crop up anywhere.

Edit: My issue with Markarth is that, like Riften, the place is filled with corruption which you can't cleanse, but fails at portraying the corruption as some broad systemic issue beyond the ability of any individual to address. The causes of the social ills in the city are pretty obvious straight from the beginning, and most of them come down to "there are a few people here with a ton of power, and they're terrible people on every level." That kind of problem is the sort of thing that a questing hero should be able to put to rest easily, but the game won't let you.

On the other hand, I'm not certain that slaughtering the entire Silver-blood family and all their minions would actually leave Markarth that much better off, no matter how personally satisfying it would be.

[VoxRationis]

You don't think so? They're personally responsible for upholding a Nord-supremacist social order in the Reach, systematically driving out native business and land owners, and the personal power they hold through property ownership drives corruption in the Markarth guard force, which undermines legitimate authority (even if the Jarl is a bit of an idiot, his steward isn't) and stops justice from being properly done in the whole city. Their control of property also keeps the workers living on dirt floors and the mine functioning off unfree labor.

[Keltest]

You don't think so? They're personally responsible for upholding a Nord-supremacist social order in the Reach, systematically driving out native business and land owners, and the personal power they hold through property ownership drives corruption in the Markarth guard force, which undermines legitimate authority (even if the Jarl is a bit of an idiot, his steward isn't) and stops justice from being properly done in the whole city. Their control of property also keeps the workers living on dirt floors and the mine functioning off unfree labor.

Sure. The mine is still there, its still valuable, and it will still make someone rich. If not the Silver-bloods, then whoever replaces them as owners. The mine simply grants disproportionate power to whoever controls it, so just eliminating the silver-blood clan without taking steps to make sure that control of the mine no longer lets people just do whatever they want wont actually solve the problem.

[VoxRationis]

Sure. The mine is still there, its still valuable, and it will still make someone rich. If not the Silver-bloods, then whoever replaces them as owners. The mine simply grants disproportionate power to whoever controls it, so just eliminating the silver-blood clan without taking steps to make sure that control of the mine no longer lets people just do whatever they want wont actually solve the problem.

But the mine isn't the only piece of property the Silver-Bloods own. They own a lot of other property—most notably the inn where everyone drinks to forget they live in such a terrible place—in the city too, to the degree where the city is basically a company town for them. Unless whoever ends up with the mine ends up with the rest of it as well, the imbalance doesn't exist. Moreover, the mine is not a monopoly if the Dragonborn also stops the Silver-Bloods from moving in on Karthwasten, which also has a profitable silver mine, much closer to the main roads people might want to take.
And this is assuming that the mine remains private property in general; it's the kind of venture which could easily be collectivized, with its profits split among its workers, or (if Margret is alive) the Empire could end up with the deed, preventing local power blocs from forming.

[Keltest]

But the mine isn't the only piece of property the Silver-Bloods own. They own a lot of other property—most notably the inn where everyone drinks to forget they live in such a terrible place—in the city too, to the degree where the city is basically a company town for them. Unless whoever ends up with the mine ends up with the rest of it as well, the imbalance doesn't exist. Moreover, the mine is not a monopoly if the Dragonborn also stops the Silver-Bloods from moving in on Karthwasten, which also has a profitable silver mine, much closer to the main roads people might want to take.
And this is assuming that the mine remains private property in general; it's the kind of venture which could easily be collectivized, with its profits split among its workers, or (if Margret is alive) the Empire could end up with the deed, preventing local power blocs from forming.

Sure, but at that point you have invested a lot more work and effort into the situation than "kill the silver-bloods".

Heck, even riften is easier to solve than that, because with the Black-briars, it really is the familial connections that give them the power.

[Triaxx]

Because with Season Unending, I only need to talk to Tulius and Ulfric, so Markarth can just sit and rot in it's own juices for all I have to head in. You're right, I'd forgotten about Hircine also being in Falkreath.

[Ogremindes]

Spoiler: List of Mods

Show

Unofficial Skyrim Special Edition Patch
Campfire: Complete Camping System
Cutting Room Floor
Lore-Based Loading Screens
Run For Your Lives
When Vampires Attack
Ars Metallica
Bandolier: Bags And Pouches Classic
Cloaks & Capes
Craftable Clothing
Immersive Upgrade Leveled Items
Wearable Lanterns
Hearthfire Display Case Fix By Krucify
Non-Automatic Skill Books
Forgotten DungeonsSSE
EasierRider's Dungeon Pack
Moonlight Tales Special Edition
Sacrosanct - Vampires of Skyrim
Thunderchild - Epic Shouts And Immersion
Aurora - Standing Stones of Skyrim
Imperious - Races of Skyrim
Apocalypse - Magic of Skyrim
Summermyst - Enchantments of Skyrim
Ordinator - Perks of Skyrim
Wildcat - Combat of Skyrim
Thief Skills Rebalance for Ordinator
Apocalypse - Ordinator Compatibility Patch
Frostfall: Hypothermia Camping Survival
iNeed Food Water and Sleep
iNeed Extended
Wet and Cold
True Storms Special Edition - Rain Thunder And Weather Redone
Alternate Start - Live Another Life

---

Log of the Skinny Horker, Last Seed 16, 201
A thick fog has set in, reducing visibility, and I am concerned that we have yet to sight Frostflow. It would be prudent to wait out the fog in these conditions, but this blasted elf is threatening to have me declared a Talos worshiper if we have any more delays. I'd have him thrown overboard if his fellows weren't waiting for him at Solitude. Well, I've sailed these waters dozens of times, I'm sure I can get us through in one piece. But if I never have another Thalmor on deck it'll be too soon.

---

---

Journal of Faris al-Dhiib, Last Seed 17
The last thing I remember is going to sleep in my cabin. Next thing, I'm upside down and drowning in frigid water. The Skinny Horker, the ship on which I was travelling to Skyrim, has capsized.

Drenched and freezing to death, I threw together what dry materials I could find to build a fire in the cargo hold, now at the top of the ship and largely above water. I've checked outside, through a hole in the hull. The boat is a long way from shore, no sign of any settlements, but I can make out some ruins in the distance.

It looks like I'm the only one who survived the wreck. The others were either bludgeoned to death by the ship's thrashing or couldn't escape the icy water. While I'm safe here for now, I can feel the timbers shifting every now and then. I'm going to have to swim for shore myself before the ship sinks further. I found some bottles of a brew that is supposed to stave off hypothermia. I hope it's enough. I'll wrap this book up tightly and take it with me. If I don't make it maybe word will reach my family this way.

I should've knifed that elf when I had the chance.

---

[Vaz]

What are peoples opinions of Frostfall vs Hypothermia as a survival mod? I've heard that Frostfall is a PitA because of the coding leaving to risk of save corruption later, and as such I'm intending to get a list of mods sorted that won't be changed before my next playthrough, and a survival mod is my biggest sticking point.

If anyone has any other suggestions (running Requiem), please don't hesistate to suggest away.

[Triaxx]

I think that's only with the older versions of Frostfall. I know Chesko totally re-wrote it not too long ago, and broke it up into Frostfall and Campfire, in order to improve the performance.

Haven't actually ever used Hypothermia. Frostfall does everything I want how I want it so I never got around to trying Hypo.