An Enemy Spy Plays F.A.T.A.L!

[Beneath]

I've spent like all day at this (might as well take a measure of how bad it is, right?) and I got as far as figuring out how many skill points my nameless ogress has, but not distributing them to skills or going back to the god-awful arcane mass of sub-abilities to compute total modifiers.

Since she's an ogress her occupation was determined pretty easily by that to be Berserker though. At least I got something vaguely playable (her stats mostly suck, but on the other hand she doesn't need much other than hitting things)

[Cluedrew]

You know in most threads I expand every spoiler I come across. Not doing that here. Thank-you for using them by the way.

From a design perspective I believe there is value in examining things that are bad and seeing why there are bad. Here the lessons seem to be pretty obvious:

• Sexism is bad.
• Racism is bad.
• Minimize complexity. (Even rules heavy systems generally try use the rules efficiently to get the job done.)
• Randomness in character creation is dangerous. (Not bad, but unless you have a particular goal I would avoid it anyways.)
• Minimize time required. (As complexity.)
• Test everything to the Nth degree. (OK we don't know they didn't do this but...)
• Any "isms" I missed are also bad.

Feel free to chime in with anything I missed. But at the same time I think these are not particularly... they should be pretty obvious to people who have been around RPGs for long. Or is a good person. Not the most enlightening of examinations.

[Ninja_Prawn]

[*]Minimize complexity. (Even rules heavy systems generally try use the rules efficiently to get the job done.)

I'm not sure FATAL's "it's too difficult to generate a character" issue is really one of complexity per se, it's more that so many different stats are interrelated, so you have to keep going back and recalculating. Especially the interaction between height, weight, age and sexiness keeps going in circles and it's not clear at all which order you apply modifiers in.

It's not complexity, really, it's just plain old bad design.

[Cluedrew]

Right, we may have missed another one:

• Rules should be clear. (Easy to understand and unlikely to be misunderstood.)

But about complexity, interdependence is a kind of complexity. The best example I have heard of this is 100 numbered buttons (think it was one hundred).

Lay out 100 numbered buttons, 1-100. What do you have? One hundred buttons. You can move each button freely without effecting the others.

Now connect them with bits of string, joining each button with another random button. What do we have? 50 pairs of buttons connected by string. Moving a button may effect its partner but (ignoring the reality of overlapping bits of string) that is it. And if you just move it closer to its partner the partner will not move at all.

Now connect the pairs randomly. What do we have? 25 strings of 4 buttons. Moving any button could effect up to 3 others and the ones in the middle might not be able to move at all without effecting another button.

Take a step back, to the 50 pairs again. Connect 50 buttons to a button they are not already connected to directly. What do we have? Can't tell you. We probably have some pairs of 2 buttons and some strings of 4 buttons. But we may have the occasional ring of 4 buttons, a web of 8 buttons and if we are really lucky every single button will be connected to every other button in a giant loop. I can't even tell you about moving buttons because there are so many possibilities.

That is complexity through interdependence. There is a few (well 25) more pieces of string in the last example as the second last, but in terms of how complex the system is, its a massive difference. ... I think I remember enough to formally define it... but is this enough?

[Friv]

Next up is pregnancy!


. . .


Next up is abilities!

*slow clap*

You know, the more I hear about FATAL, the more I respect deadEarth. At least their bull**** nonsense character creation system was hilarious, and only somewhat sexist.

[AuraTwilight]

Atleast deadEarth has the decency to possibly kill your character during chargen. FATAL has no such mercy. Kiki won't be leaving this world until she's raped to death or gives birth to a litter of swords or something.

[An Enemy Spy]

Atleast deadEarth has the decency to possibly kill your character during chargen. FATAL has no such mercy. Kiki won't be leaving this world until she's raped to death or gives birth to a litter of swords or something.

The sad part is nothing in that sentence is in any way an exaggeration.

[TheCountAlucard]

To be fair, someone might roll badly enough miscasting a spell to cast FATAL, ending all life in the entire world simultaneously. A surprisingly merciful end compared to, well, pretty much every other means of dying in the game.

[Cluedrew]

My brain is trying to reconcile "litter" which suggests "kittens" with the word "swords". ... No progress is being made.

[Knaight]

My brain is trying to reconcile "litter" which suggests "kittens" with the word "swords". ... No progress is being made.

It seems pretty clear, although the mental picture the term calls up is not pretty. Still, by FATAL standards it's downright subdued. Sure, there's the horrific bodily horror, but at least it's within the type that could come from something like a conventional horror writer and not the sort that reveals a bit of Byron Hall's screwed up psyche.

[Ninja_Prawn]

reveals a bit of Byron Hall's screwed up psyche.

*shudder*

One very much gets the impression reading FATAL that the whole thing was created purely to satisfy Hall's twisted urges. If only 'game design' was one of his fetishes...

[Anonymouswizard]

*shudder*

One very much gets the impression reading FATAL that the whole thing was created purely to satisfy Hall's twisted urges. If only 'game design' was one of his fetishes...

But who needs good game design when you're making the most 'realistic, historically accurate' game of all time?

A realistic, historically accurate game with magical elves and shapeshifting dwarves. I mean, I at least admit my settings aren't 1000% historically accurate.

[Knaight]

But who needs good game design when you're making the most 'realistic, historically accurate' game of all time?

A realistic, historically accurate game with magical elves and shapeshifting dwarves. I mean, I at least admit my settings aren't 1000% historically accurate.

Elves, dwarves, badly mangled Greek and Medieval philosophy treated as if it's a serious source for understanding human society, crime statistics that bear no resemblance to any historical period, profession after profession where people practice their profession for decades without getting better at it, the list goes on.

[DigoDragon]

This may be the first time in the nearly nine years I've been a member on this forum that I regret clicking on a thread out of curiosity.

[Ninja_Prawn]

This may be the first time in the nearly nine years I've been a member on this forum that I regret clicking on a thread out of curiosity.

Curiosity killed the Dragon!

At least no one is making you play (or even read) FATAL itself.

[Cluedrew]

To Knaight: It may just be my highly trained mental block kicking in.

To DigoDragon: Really? The threads I usually "regret" are the ones that rapidly devolved into pointless argument. At least for anyone who knows the first thing about the system, there is a big red flag right in the title... I mean I new I was taking a risk reading it but with the appropriate (and appreciated) use of spoilers it has mostly paned out.

Then I realize you are probably never going to read this. Oh well.

[DigoDragon]

Curiosity killed the Dragon!

Hope I was at least worth enough exp for a level up.

At least no one is making you play (or even read) FATAL itself.

I imagine being forced to play any game is a quick way of losing friends.

To DigoDragon: Really? The threads I usually "regret" are the ones that rapidly devolved into pointless argument. At least for anyone who knows the first thing about the system, there is a big red flag right in the title... I mean I new I was taking a risk reading it but with the appropriate (and appreciated) use of spoilers it has mostly paned out.

Arguments are something I deal with daily, so I'm kind of used to those. I think it was just a shock to my system on just how awful F.A.T.A.L. was. I hear lots of vague comments of "Friends don't let friends play F.A.T.A.L." and all that, but no one ever actually explained the mechanics. So I assumed it was just one of those poorly-written generic systems. I wasn't prepared for just how little I imagined the rabbit hole dove down into the muck. I didn't even know what the name stood for until I came here.

Honestly, I only checked this thread out because the thread title got my curiosity that it was gonna be mocked. Well, not wrong on that point at least. ^^;

Well, I think I'm over the initial shock.

Then I realize you are probably never going to read this. Oh well.

Probably, but there's a non-zero chance that I do. ;)

[Knaight]

Arguments are something I deal with daily, so I'm kind of used to those. I think it was just a shock to my system on just how awful F.A.T.A.L. was. I hear lots of vague comments of "Friends don't let friends play F.A.T.A.L." and all that, but no one ever actually explained the mechanics. So I assumed it was just one of those poorly-written generic systems. I wasn't prepared for just how little I imagined the rabbit hole dove down into the muck. I didn't even know what the name stood for until I came here.

There's a fascinating FATAL review floating around out there - it's extensive, going chapter by chapter, using heavy quotes, and generally coming to about 30 pages. It's also incredibly crass and vulgar all by its lonesome, and that's without even getting into the direct quotes. Still, it's worth reading on account of the hilarity and on account of the perspective it gives on other games that are bad in more mundane ways.

[BWR]

There's a fascinating FATAL review floating around out there - it's extensive, going chapter by chapter, using heavy quotes, and generally coming to about 30 pages. It's also incredibly crass and vulgar all by its lonesome, and that's without even getting into the direct quotes. Still, it's worth reading on account of the hilarity and on account of the perspective it gives on other games that are bad in more mundane ways.

This is it, I believe.

[Knaight]

This is it, I believe.

That's it. I wasn't sure about linking it here, given the general tenor of this forum, but I can confirm that it's the review in question.

[Anonymouswizard]

This is it, I believe.

That's it. I wasn't sure about linking it here, given the general tenor of this forum, but I can confirm that it's the review in question.

Ah yes, I enjoy this review. I'm not going to link the rebuttal, but I do recommend interested people seek it out, if only because Byron Hall and his friends only manage to bring up about two half-decent points (one being that it isn't technically a review, but honestly it's the closest you can get without your computer committing seppeku), and about 99.99999% of the rebuttal is pure nonsense with a bit of rhetoric (good on them for holding up to modern reliability standards there). There's also about one or two good lines in there, especially around the point Byron Hall starts misunderstanding Vampire.

[sktarq]

Elves, dwarves, badly mangled Greek and Medieval philosophy treated as if it's a serious source for understanding human society, crime statistics that bear no resemblance to any historical period, profession after profession where people practice their profession for decades without getting better at it, the list goes on.

And that Deathmetal and Racist humor is apparently enjoyed by the laws of physics in this world.

But please don't stop - if burning the game is an insult to fire leaving us hanging is an insult to Limbo and Tarterus

[Hawkstar]

This may be the first time in the nearly nine years I've been a member on this forum that I regret clicking on a thread out of curiosity.

Look on the bright side - You now know exactly why FATAL has the reputation it does.

[An Enemy Spy]

This a question for the mods. I got sick a while back and then with hectic work schedule I couldn't find the time to continue this series, and eventually forgot about it. Would it be thread necromancy to bring it back?

[An Enemy Spy]

After a long hiatus, we can finally do Abilities. FATAL has five abilities, each one with a set of four sub-abilities. Each sub-ability is randomly determined by rolling ten d10s, dividing the result by 5, and subtracting 1. You have to roll each sub-ability in order and you can't choose which values go where. Customization? Pfft, maybe that's good enough for those other RPGs, but FATAL don't do that. Only the most historically accurate ability rolls are welcome at this table. Once you've rolled all twenty sub-abilities and applied your various modifiers(-30% to Strength for all female characters, but that's totally fair, because Kiki gets +2% to Language!), you calculate the average of each set to find the main ability scores. Fun fact: Kiki's Bodily Attractiveness is so low that the modifiers pushed it well into the negatives. Since the ability modifier table doesn't go lower than 1, I'm assuming that's the minimum. Kiki's abilites read thusly:

Physique: 90
-Physical Fitness: 176
-Strength: 14
-Bodily Attractiveness: 1
-Health: 172
Charisma: 102
-Facial: 76
-Vocal: 67
-Kinetic: 164
-Rhetorical: 103
Dexterity: 110
-Hand-Eye Coordination: 154
-Agility: 138
-Reaction Speed: 117
-Enunciation: 34
Intelligence: 159
-Language: 167
-Math: 175
-Analytic: 87
-Spatial: 207
Wisdom: 64
-Drive: 29
-Intuition: 106
-Common Sense: 67
-Reflection: 56

I suppose we can pretend that Kiki's low bodily attractiveness score could be do to the fact that two-year olds should not be considered attractive! The fact that [horrible statement in white] her vaginal circumference is a quarter of her height could contribute to that fact. I sincerely hope you didn't read the whited out section of the previous sentence.

On the positive side, Kiki is extremely intelligent for her age. Nice to see that the Kobold education system works.

[An Enemy Spy]

Small update: after scrolling down a few pages, I now see that there is an ungodly long table detailing the various modifiers that each sub-ability gives. Fortunately for Kiki, this means her Bodily Atrractiveness will get a boost from her high Physical Fitness score. The layout of this book is terrible. You have to go all over the place to find every little plus and minus. It's madness. On one table, Byron feels the nee[d to tell us what the word 'butterface' means, because it's important to him that your character know how ugly she is.

[JenBurdoo]

Good Gods, man. I salute you. You are sacrificing your sanity, but you may be happy to know it's for my amusement and flabbergastment (is that a word?). I always loved the Jason Sartin review but never dared read its subject. As a lover of MST3K, I imagine the only reason no one has yet MSTed it is that it would achieve the Mads' object; it sounds so dreadful that it must actually be, ultimately, unmockable. Joel/Mike/Jonah and the Bots would kill themselves after the hundredth page of endless, disgusting, unriffable spells.

[An Enemy Spy]

Oh, how foolish past me was. How young and starry-eyed he was, so full of hope, thinking maybe, just maybe this game would be at least somewhat playable, that his character was weak perhaps, and certainly unwise, but at least her stats weren't completely horrible.

Past me had calculated the stats based on all the race and gender modifiers, recalculated the Bodily Attractiveness sub-ability, and thought he was on his way to the next section.

Past me didn't know about the Aging Effects Table.

Unless you are fortunate enough to have landed in the very slim range of Young Adult, this table takes a bulldozer to your sub-abilities. A wrecking ball. In Kiki's case, a Tsar Bomb. Nearly every one of her stats was reduced by 90%, raising the question of why it's even possible to roll an infant character if they're completely useless.

Here, for what I seriously hope is the final time, are Kiki's ability scores(with modifiers).

Physique: 32 -44
-Physical Fitness: 18 -64
-Strength: 2 -99
-Bodily Attractiveness: 1 -99
-Health: 110 +6
Charisma: 14 -64
-Facial: 23 -50
-Vocal: 7 -74
-Kinetic: 17 -56
-Rhetorical: 11 -74
Dexterity: 11 -74
-Hand-Eye Coordination: 16 -64
-Agility: 14 -64
-Reaction Speed: 12 -74
-Enunciation: 4 -99
Intelligence: 65 -21
-Language: 17 -64
-Math: 18 -64
-Analytic: 9 -74
-Spatial: 21 -56
Wisdom: 18 -64
-Drive: 17 -64
-Intuition: 47 -34
-Common Sense: 6 -99
-Reflection: 5 -99

Sigh, the world of FATAL is no place for a three pound two year old adventurer. At least you won't have to be very long in it, Kiki. I'm sorry I created you.

[Anonymouswizard]

I'd forgotten just how bad FATAL is. Just wait until you're rolling for occupation, as I remember half the female ones might as well have 'translation: prostitute' as the description. That increases to approximately 100% if you're a slave.

I hear you thinking 'ah, but as a two year old I won't have to have an occupation'. But you forget that this game wasn't entirely playtested at all, and so IIRC there's no minimum age for when someone gains their first occupation. There's fluff, certainly, about how people are usually some age or another, but no actual rules, so I suggest you roll!

And then likely reroll several times as Kiki proves unable to qualify for whatever occupation she has.

[Magua]

Each sub-ability is randomly determined by rolling ten d10s, dividing the result by 5, and subtracting 1.

Physique: 90
-Physical Fitness: 176
-Strength: 14
-Bodily Attractiveness: 1
-Health: 172
Charisma: 102
-Facial: 76
-Vocal: 67
-Kinetic: 164
-Rhetorical: 103
Dexterity: 110
-Hand-Eye Coordination: 154
-Agility: 138
-Reaction Speed: 117
-Enunciation: 34
Intelligence: 159
-Language: 167
-Math: 175
-Analytic: 87
-Spatial: 207
Wisdom: 64
-Drive: 29
-Intuition: 106
-Common Sense: 67
-Reflection: 56

Following along with the sort of horrified fascination people get around car accidents, I have to ask: if the stat generation is 10d10 (ie 10-100, avg 55) divided by 5 minus 1, doesn't that give a range of 1-19 with an average of 10?

Only Strength and Bodily Attractiveness are actually in that range, though. Is there really a +160% to Physical Fitness for Kobolds?