Pokémon Thread XXVIII: Get. In. The. BAG.

[Lord Raziere]

Yeah Dark Soulsmon would be welcome for maybe ONE game, but not for a series. rpgs definitely need to get better than the "lol level up enough or buy enough healing items and you win" mentality though, which unfortunately is the state of pokemon even before the "easier" generations.

[Fable Wright]

Yeah Dark Soulsmon would be welcome for maybe ONE game, but not for a series.

...In which case, it would not really be Dark Souls-y. Dark Souls invented a genre for a reason.

Dark Souls is not hard because of resource throttling or numbers inflation, but because of enemies and the environment. A Dark Souls Hard pokemon game would be characterized by things like Elesa's Challenge Mode Emolga, water/fire/rock gyms with pre-existing weather, Cynthia's entry hazards and AI, and SOS chaining into pokemon that complement each other well, a la Trial SOS rather than duplicate pokemon SOS... and I doubt it would be stingy with revives.

Would look a lot like Ultra Moon, come to think of it, with better Elite 4 AI and more interesting wandering trainer fights.

[Aotrs Commander]

...In which case, it would not really be Dark Souls-y. Dark Souls invented a genre for a reason.

Dark Souls is not hard because of resource throttling or numbers inflation, but because of enemies and the environment.

But my point was really that apart from Dark Souls itself, my understanding is that most of it's clones don't understand that. So something trying something similar with Pokémon seems like its far less likely to do it right - especially given a fair bit of the past record, where the difficulty is most often either high-level of an endurance test (and/or the aforementioned throttling of resources at the very start (i.e. access to Pokémon, for instance by putting in trade limitations in the older games).)

[tgva8889]

Even with challenge runs it's still easy. I've done three mono-type runs (including mono-grass), and the games still weren't noticeably harder.

You do have to try a lot. In my challenge runs I generally ban most items, restrict my Pokemon usage, and level limit myself and the game is still pretty easy because I know what I'm doing. A lot of times I will pick Pokemon specifically so I can't engage in certain strategies that make things too easy. On the other hand I get bored easily so sometimes I just want to cruise through the areas and not have to deal with the challenge, and Pokemon lets me choose what I want which is nice.

I can imagine it being harder for those who are not prepared, but if you want Pokemon to be easy it's possible to get there entirely by accident. Sun and Moon are probably the hardest Pokemon games I've played since Colosseum and XD: Gale of Darkness, but still only if I'm doing some sort of challenge run.

[OracleofWuffing]

And why not? Let's get some granular customization options up in this thing! I'mma spec my Salazzle for DoTs, deal with it!

Isn't that kind of obvious, though? I mean, Corrosion debuted on that line!

[Celestia]

You do have to try a lot. In my challenge runs I generally ban most items, restrict my Pokemon usage, and level limit myself and the game is still pretty easy because I know what I'm doing. A lot of times I will pick Pokemon specifically so I can't engage in certain strategies that make things too easy. On the other hand I get bored easily so sometimes I just want to cruise through the areas and not have to deal with the challenge, and Pokemon lets me choose what I want which is nice.

I can imagine it being harder for those who are not prepared, but if you want Pokemon to be easy it's possible to get there entirely by accident. Sun and Moon are probably the hardest Pokemon games I've played since Colosseum and XD: Gale of Darkness, but still only if I'm doing some sort of challenge run.

I don't use any items at all even on my normal playthroughs. It's all just vendor trash to sell for balls and TMs. I turn off the EXP share as soon as I get it and never grind. I use Pokémon I like rather than Pokémon that are strong or effective against the gyms/trials. Even when playing normally, I'm already operating under most "challenge" rules, and the games are still effortless.

[tgva8889]

Maybe you're better at the games than I am. Are you spamming Repels all the time?

There's also a lot of variance in some things, in that the Pokemon you like may just mostly be generally good or useful or you may be acquiring certain TMs much earlier than the game intends which decreases difficulty. It's hard to say; there's so many variables in Pokemon, and making the right choices on any of them can swerve the game into easy-mode territory.

[Celestia]

Maybe you're better at the games than I am. Are you spamming Repels all the time?

Generally, no. I'll sometimes use them for really long dungeons, but we haven't had any of those since Gen IV, anyways.

There's also a lot of variance in some things, in that the Pokemon you like may just mostly be generally good or useful or you may be acquiring certain TMs much earlier than the game intends which decreases difficulty.

It's impossible to get TMs earlier than intended since they can no longer be traded between games. Well, unless you get into chain breeding and such, but I don't bother with breeding. Too much time and effort.

It's hard to say; there's so many variables in Pokemon, and making the right choices on any of them can swerve the game into easy-mode territory.

There really aren't. Unless you pick the truly crappy mons, like the regional rodents, you can get through with very little challenge. I mean, I played a mono-grass run in Black 2 where five of the gyms were strong against me, and I still ended up quitting out of boredom because it was too easy.

[tgva8889]

I think Pokemon is designed to allow you to swap your team members in and out a lot, so not doing that does decrease the challenge. I think if you use Set mode, Nuzlocke, ban all items except Pokeballs, never KO any Wild Pokemon and never allow yourself to be higher level than any boss battle the game probably becomes pretty difficult, but you do have to try pretty hard to maximize the challenge.

Usually I don't Nuzlocke and ban items because it's just annoying when Pokemon faint, but in general I don't use items during battle unless I'm Nuzlocking and the challenge is about where I want it to be. You may just be better at optimal strategy than me, or doing something different. I have done a mono-type run and to be honest it just isn't that hard to do a mono-type run. If your Pokemon end up high enough level you will smash everyone easily, and if you know proper strategy you can easily wreck people with type advantage even if they have super effective moves.

[Spore]

There really aren't. Unless you pick the truly crappy mons, like the regional rodents, you can get through with very little challenge.

Try a mono bug nuzlocke for size. Honestly, the regional rodent and birds are ranging from passable to good.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

I think if you use Set mode, Nuzlocke, ban all items except Pokeballs, never KO any Wild Pokemon and never allow yourself to be higher level than any boss battle the game probably becomes pretty difficult, but you do have to try pretty hard to maximize the challenge.

If you only catch the first mon on every route and don't KO any of the others I don't think you'll need to worry a lot about being higher level than the gym leaders. Maybe in a solo run...

[Celestia]

I'll sit back and wait for a side game where my Gliscor has a skill tree.

I've been contemplating how this could work, and I think I've come up with a good mechanic.

Each mon will have five individual skill trees. Leveling up gives you skill points that can be distributed among those trees in any way you wish. The first tree will be for the mon's core attributes and will, in essence, replace EVs and abilities. You spend points to boost up your mon's stats or unlock special qualities that apply passive effects. Each mon will have four or five of these qualities giving you choices. Though, you can actually buy multiple ones, but each you buy makes the others more expensive.

The other four skill trees would replace the standard move list. Your mon would start with four default moves that can be upgraded and customized with the skill trees. This will allow you to change the moves between physical/special and attacking/status and also allow you to modify their power, accuracy, PP, type, and secondary effects. Which secondary effects are available will be based on the type of the move and the type(s) of the mon, so you could get some unusual combinations for unexpected results, like a Salazzle could have a fire move that inflicts poison. And like with the abilities, you can put multiple secondary effects onto your moves, but they'll become cumulatively more expensive. Finally, you can customize the moves' names and animations to make them more personal.

Also, since there are no more move lists, the Move Relearner will be replaced with an NPC that lets you spend heart scales to reset skill trees and refund the points for redistribution, one tree per scale.

[Kadesh]

The skill tree is already there. You gain passive bonuses to your stats as you increase in level, and can choose 4 moves as you level up. You have a set of base stats, and you can focus on improving those stats as you wish.

With the exception of not having to take Ember before Flamethrower, what exactly is it a Skill Tree gives that isn't represented already in the core game?

[Qwertystop]

If you only catch the first mon on every route and don't KO any of the others I don't think you'll need to worry a lot about being higher level than the gym leaders. Maybe in a solo run...

My reading was "you're only allowed to actually use the first one from each round, but you have to try to catch all the others (and then box or release them) anyway." That would make it a lot harder.

[Qwertystop]

The skill tree is already there. You gain passive bonuses to your stats as you increase in level, and can choose 4 moves as you level up. You have a set of base stats, and you can focus on improving those stats as you wish.

With the exception of not having to take Ember before Flamethrower, what exactly is it a Skill Tree gives that isn't represented already in the core game?

Cosmetics of the choice – attacks are presented as replacements, not upgrades, even if by the numbers some of them are just strict upgrades.

Also, skill-trees (if done well) generally have choices at a level of impact somewhere between "minor stat bump" and "completely new tool independent of all your other tools".

[tgva8889]

If you only catch the first mon on every route and don't KO any of the others I don't think you'll need to worry a lot about being higher level than the gym leaders. Maybe in a solo run...

Depending on the game you can catch them for EXP. Catching things is generally harder than KOing them, though.

Man, the reading of "you must catch everything you encounter" sounds pretty challenging. A "catch literally everything" run does sound potentially fun, though probably not really feasible since there's only so much money to go around in the game. I suppose in Let's Go this wouldn't be super hard, though.

[Celestia]

Depending on the game you can catch them for EXP. Catching things is generally harder than KOing them, though.

Man, the reading of "you must catch everything you encounter" sounds pretty challenging. A "catch literally everything" run does sound potentially fun, though probably not really feasible since there's only so much money to go around in the game. I suppose in Let's Go this wouldn't be super hard, though.

It wouldn't be that bad in BW2. You get access to Pokéstar Studios early enough that money can be no object throughout virtually all of the game.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

My reading was "you're only allowed to actually use the first one from each round, but you have to try to catch all the others (and then box or release them) anyway." That would make it a lot harder.

Depending on the game you can catch them for EXP. Catching things is generally harder than KOing them, though.

Okay, that does make things easier, giving you a way to grind. Especially without a penalty for accidental KO's.

On the Nuzlocke boards that would go in the "other adventures" category though. You're catching things other than the first mon on each route. Hence my reading of the proposal.

I also question how much fun there is in making grinding slower and more frustrating. If encounters are too easy, grind less, not weirder.

Nuzlocke rules in general, while lots of fun to follow part of the time (that is: in some of your runs), are not always the best way to create a challenge. Attempting a gym several times with the same underpowered and ill-prepared team can be just as challenging, yet it's impossible under Nuzlocke rules.

[WhismurWanders]

I finally completed my first ever successful Nuzlocke run, and by the skin of my teeth at that. Ruby Version with this team going into the Elite 4. Only Exploud made it out alive because he managed to get a critical hit with Overheat to OHKO Steven's Metagross and snag the win.

[tgva8889]

The key element of Nuzlocke to me is perma-death. Adding perma-death changes a lot of my typical strategy for Pokemon, which involves sacrificing things to make the battles easier because you get a free switch. When you can't do that easily, you have to value lots of different things, like bulky Pokemon (who are usually just not as good as glass cannons in normal gameplay).

[Celestia]

The key element of Nuzlocke to me is perma-death. Adding perma-death changes a lot of my typical strategy for Pokemon, which involves sacrificing things to make the battles easier because you get a free switch. When you can't do that easily, you have to value lots of different things, like bulky Pokemon (who are usually just not as good as glass cannons in normal gameplay).

The rules presented in the original Nuzlocke comic are perma-death and only catching the first mon in each area. Everything else is a later addition made up by someone else.

[tgva8889]

The rules presented in the original Nuzlocke comic are perma-death and only catching the first mon in each area. Everything else is a later addition made up by someone else.

When I do Nuzlocke, those are the rules I usually do. Sometimes I add species clause because it's more interesting than catching 7 spearows (which is what I did the first time).

Perma-death doesn't mean anything if you don't restrict what Pokemon you can catch, since you could just go catch more Pokemon. As you've mentioned, though, the specific Pokemon you can use only sort of matter, so having to catch only the 1st Pokemon mostly limits how many you have so Perma-death matters.

[Kadesh]

Cosmetics of the choice – attacks are presented as replacements, not upgrades, even if by the numbers some of them are just strict upgrades.

Also, skill-trees (if done well) generally have choices at a level of impact somewhere between "minor stat bump" and "completely new tool independent of all your other tools".

I'm still not entirely sure what you want outside of 'More Powerful Fire Attack' and 'Slight less Powerful Flame Attack with increased chance to burn? Every level, you get a minor stat bump, and you get the ability to choose an upgrade to your chosen combination of moves.

[Qwertystop]

I'm still not entirely sure what you want outside of 'More Powerful Fire Attack' and 'Slight less Powerful Flame Attack with increased chance to burn? Every level, you get a minor stat bump, and you get the ability to choose an upgrade to your chosen combination of moves.

The combat system isn't really set up to do proper skill trees, for pretty much that exact reason – there's very few things to tune between similar and almost all of them are just numbers. Accuracy, power, PP (almost always irrelevant both in-game and in competitive play), chance of one of four standard status effects, chance of stat buff or debuff. It's basically always a chain of strict improvements, with maybe a "high damage, lower accuracy, only 5 PP" at the top end.

I'd rather have a system with things like range or reach, or even just a larger percentage of attacks that do something outside of that simple framework. Recoil-to-party-member, turn-delayed Protect, damage-and-Roar but your opponent chooses who they switch to. Give me more crazy effects so I actually have to think to decide whether the new thing is better than the old thing.

[Alabenson]

Out of curiosity, would anyone happen to have a Sturdy Tyrunt that they'd be willing to trade for a Female Snow Warning Amaura?

[Kadesh]

The combat system isn't really set up to do proper skill trees, for pretty much that exact reason – there's very few things to tune between similar and almost all of them are just numbers. Accuracy, power, PP (almost always irrelevant both in-game and in competitive play), chance of one of four standard status effects, chance of stat buff or debuff. It's basically always a chain of strict improvements, with maybe a "high damage, lower accuracy, only 5 PP" at the top end.

I'd rather have a system with things like range or reach, or even just a larger percentage of attacks that do something outside of that simple framework. Recoil-to-party-member, turn-delayed Protect, damage-and-Roar but your opponent chooses who they switch to. Give me more crazy effects so I actually have to think to decide whether the new thing is better than the old thing.

Some of what you suggest sounds awful, and I'd hate to see them in a competitive meta: although all of those lead to stall and god no, if I'll ever see that as an actual legitimate style of play.

Have you tried playing online rather than against the walkover AI designed to be only a minor challenge for children?

[Eurus]

Playing on Pokemon Showdown is an interesting way to get a new perspective on the game. There's more complexity to Pokemon battling than it seems, especially when you don't have to jump through hoops to get the setup you want. Sweepers, pivots, revenge killers, different types of walls, weather teams...

[Lvl 2 Expert]

We should do a GiantITP Showdown tournament. Just for fun, bring your favorite Pokémon. With exclusive rights to a little signature banner as the prize for the winner.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

I did a quick search for this pun before I made this image. Either nobody has come up with it before, or this one is too cringe-worthy even for the internet.



(Adapted from official Pokémon artwork, all credits go to all the folks behind the games, except the credits for the pun, because they probably wouldn't want those credits.)

[unseenmage]

Trainer battle update went live for me and the fam tonight.

My pokemon glitch out and cannot attack. My wife and daughters got to beat me up a lot.

At least I got a Sinnoh stone out of it.