General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

[DeTess]

Something I am curious about. Shadowrun 5e seems to be immensely popular online at least... Which leads me to the question of 'Why?'

I remember when it came out, the consensus I recall was that 5e just wasn't very good, compared to older editions. Having now read it personally I find certain things amusing about it but I too don't find it particularly good. (My personal Preference is 4e, but I saw a lot of push towards 3e as well.)

So why is it that Shadowrun 5e appears to be the most popular, is it just that 5e was the current edition when the D&D 5e boom hit?

If I had to guess, 5e was the 'current' edition when harebrained schemes released their Shadowrun games, which brought attention to the setting. I haven't played any of the earlier editions, and my first contact with the setting was through the Shadowrun: Dragonfall game, so I picked up the most recent PHB after that, which happened to be 5e. As I don't have infinite time, I haven't learned any of the previous editions, though these days I use FATE mod with Shadowrun fluff if I want to play in that setting.

[druid91]

If I had to guess, 5e was the 'current' edition when harebrained schemes released their Shadowrun games, which brought attention to the setting. I haven't played any of the earlier editions, and my first contact with the setting was through the Shadowrun: Dragonfall game, so I picked up the most recent PHB after that, which happened to be 5e. As I don't have infinite time, I haven't learned any of the previous editions, though these days I use FATE mod with Shadowrun fluff if I want to play in that setting.

That's kind of my issue. It seems like people encounter the utter mess that is 5e Shadowrun, assume ALL shadowruns rules are unplayably bad and then go off to use some other system.

[Ignimortis]

That's kind of my issue. It seems like people encounter the utter mess that is 5e Shadowrun, assume ALL shadowruns rules are unplayably bad and then go off to use some other system.

To be honest, alll Shadowrun editions are kinda similarly complex, and basic mechanics of 1-3e seem weird to me with TNs and so on. I like 4e more in some aspects, but after spending a few months fixing some things wrong with 5e, it's kinda alright.

[druid91]

To be honest, alll Shadowrun editions are kinda similarly complex, and basic mechanics of 1-3e seem weird to me with TNs and so on. I like 4e more in some aspects, but after spending a few months fixing some things wrong with 5e, it's kinda alright.

Maybe it's just because I started off with 4e but the books make so much more sense to me.

[DeTess]

That's kind of my issue. It seems like people encounter the utter mess that is 5e Shadowrun, assume ALL shadowruns rules are unplayably bad and then go off to use some other system.

I switched to FATE more to just reduce complexity and amount of looking stuff up than because I found 5e unplayable, as I've used 5e for a couple of campaigns, and it seemed fine as long as you weren't intentionally breaking things.

If I feel the itch for complex shadowrun again, I'll take a look at 4e though.

[LibraryOgre]

I find pretty much every edition of SR to be incredibly complex, and think they could've done a LOT just by reusing some mechanics in a different context.

For example, I think 4e Decking would've been a lot better if they'd just imitated spellcasting... roll attribute+skill, but limit hits by the rating of the program. Limit program ratings by the hardware, much like you limit spell power by Magic rating. It's simple, it's clear, and it makes sense. Running an awesome computer, but trying to write your novel in Notepad? You're going to have more problems than someone with a less hot computer running a better program (like Word, which has spellcheckers, the ability to alter fonts, etc.; i.e. it's a higher rating program)... but your state of the art icecracker might be able to run more programs simultaneously, or load them faster, or have other advantages.

[DigoDragon]

To be honest, alll Shadowrun editions are kinda similarly complex, and basic mechanics of 1-3e seem weird to me with TNs and so on. I like 4e more in some aspects, but after spending a few months fixing some things wrong with 5e, it's kinda alright.

Yeah, that's my thought on the editions. TNs weren't too bad, but what really got me were the wound levels. Never could grok those and I just let the GM tell me what damage I had since he seemed to know them quite well. 4e made it much easier and 5e kept that and the the way TNs were changed to just be 5s and 6s on the dice.

I will give 5e credit on character creation. I didn't realize how janked up 4e's building system was until 5e brought back the Priority system. And even then it's got good flexibility with options like Build to Ten. So for all it did wrong, it at least did some right too.

[Ignimortis]

Yeah, that's my thought on the editions. TNs weren't too bad, but what really got me were the wound levels. Never could grok those and I just let the GM tell me what damage I had since he seemed to know them quite well. 4e made it much easier and 5e kept that and the the way TNs were changed to just be 5s and 6s on the dice.

I will give 5e credit on character creation. I didn't realize how janked up 4e's building system was until 5e brought back the Priority system. And even then it's got good flexibility with options like Build to Ten. So for all it did wrong, it at least did some right too.

I don't like the priority system much. To be honest, I don't know why Sum-to-Ten wasn't the default for 5e, because it allows you to have the same inputs as raw Priority, but is much more flexible for unusual characters. 4e's Build Points were kinda weird too, because at this point you might've just gone with Karma-based chargen.

[LibraryOgre]

I think we started using Sum to Ten in 1st edition.

[druid91]

I don't like the priority system much. To be honest, I don't know why Sum-to-Ten wasn't the default for 5e, because it allows you to have the same inputs as raw Priority, but is much more flexible for unusual characters. 4e's Build Points were kinda weird too, because at this point you might've just gone with Karma-based chargen.

I always thought the point of BP rather than straight Karmagen (Which was an option in later editions.) Is that if they give you enough Karma to make the same starting character as BP. You would have a ridiculous amount of Karma and could do other things with it.

BP let you get your basics more easily, but hid the things like Initiation on the top shelf.

Another example is playing a Free Spirit. It's 150 BP. Nearly HALF your starting BP. In Karmagen, it's 150 Karma. Which is still a bite out of your budget but much less of one since you get 750 Karma to 400 BP.

[Ignimortis]

Just wanted to share a chuckle with you guys.

So in SR 5e, vehicle speed is basically determined by its' Speed stat and is calculated as follows: 5 meters/turn, multiplied by 2^Speed. So every +1 to Speed doubles that. Now...the best flying vehicle in the game has Accel 7, Speed 8 and Body 24, enough for it to get Accel Enhancement 2 and Speed Enhancement 2 from Rigger 5.0, which, unsurprisingly, raise its' accel and speed by 2, getting us to Accel 9 and Speed 10. That's already 5*2¹⁰ meters per turn, so around 5 km/turn, 1.5 and change kilometers per second. That's fast, you say...then we add a Rigger with a Rating 3 Control Rig, which gives us another +3 Speed while he's jumped in. 13 Speed, we're doing 40 km/turn...

That's more than escape velocity, so make that bird space-proof.

But wait! There's more!

What if we get a Force 12 spirit to come along and cast Movement on that GMC Gryphon? It'll get about 12 hits if it spends Edge on Push the Limit for that Movement cast, which is just about enough for it to work on the Gryphon. However...Movement grants a bonus to Speed equal to Accel multiplied by hits. Not nets hits, just hits.

So here we are...we've got Accel 9 and Speed 13 and 12 hits on movement. That means that we achieve a Speed rating of 9x12+13 for one turn (at least). That's 121 Speed. It's 5x2¹²¹ meters per turn. The end result is somewhere around 1.5950736e+37 km/h, which is...faster than lightspeed, I'll tell you that.


Edit: A spirit can't multiply the speed for more than its' Magic rating. So that's only x12 in this case, which still makes the Gryphon go something like 160 km/s, so you can fly around the Earth in a few minutes.

Drive safely and responsibly, chummers.

[LibraryOgre]

Just wanted to share a chuckle with you guys.

So in SR 5e, vehicle speed is basically determined by its' Speed stat and is calculated as follows: 5 meters/turn, multiplied by 2^Speed. So every +1 to Speed doubles that. Now...the best flying vehicle in the game has Accel 7, Speed 8 and Body 24, enough for it to get Accel Enhancement 2 and Speed Enhancement 2 from Rigger 5.0, which, unsurprisingly, raise its' accel and speed by 2, getting us to Accel 9 and Speed 10. That's already 5*2¹⁰ meters per turn, so around 5 km/turn, 1.5 and change kilometers per second. That's fast, you say...then we add a Rigger with a Rating 3 Control Rig, which gives us another +3 Speed while he's jumped in. 13 Speed, we're doing 40 km/turn...

That's more than escape velocity, so make that bird space-proof.

But wait! There's more!

What if we get a Force 12 spirit to come along and cast Movement on that GMC Gryphon? It'll get about 12 hits if it spends Edge on Push the Limit for that Movement cast, which is just about enough for it to work on the Gryphon. However...Movement grants a bonus to Speed equal to Accel multiplied by hits. Not nets hits, just hits.

So here we are...we've got Accel 9 and Speed 13 and 12 hits on movement. That means that we achieve a Speed rating of 9x12+13 for one turn (at least). That's 121 Speed. It's 5x2¹²¹ meters per turn. The end result is somewhere around 1.5950736e+37 km/h, which is...faster than lightspeed, I'll tell you that.

Drive safely and responsibly, chummers.

The lightspeed will last precisely until you hit the edge of the atmosphere, when the magic disappears like a fart in a hurricane, and you suddenly DEcellerate that much.

[DeTess]

Just wanted to share a chuckle with you guys.

So in SR 5e, vehicle speed is basically determined by its' Speed stat and is calculated as follows: 5 meters/turn, multiplied by 2^Speed. So every +1 to Speed doubles that. Now...the best flying vehicle in the game has Accel 7, Speed 8 and Body 24, enough for it to get Accel Enhancement 2 and Speed Enhancement 2 from Rigger 5.0, which, unsurprisingly, raise its' accel and speed by 2, getting us to Accel 9 and Speed 10. That's already 5*2¹⁰ meters per turn, so around 5 km/turn, 1.5 and change kilometers per second. That's fast, you say...then we add a Rigger with a Rating 3 Control Rig, which gives us another +3 Speed while he's jumped in. 13 Speed, we're doing 40 km/turn...

That's more than escape velocity, so make that bird space-proof.

But wait! There's more!

What if we get a Force 12 spirit to come along and cast Movement on that GMC Gryphon? It'll get about 12 hits if it spends Edge on Push the Limit for that Movement cast, which is just about enough for it to work on the Gryphon. However...Movement grants a bonus to Speed equal to Accel multiplied by hits. Not nets hits, just hits.

So here we are...we've got Accel 9 and Speed 13 and 12 hits on movement. That means that we achieve a Speed rating of 9x12+13 for one turn (at least). That's 121 Speed. It's 5x2¹²¹ meters per turn. The end result is somewhere around 1.5950736e+37 km/h, which is...faster than lightspeed, I'll tell you that.


Edit: A spirit can't multiply the speed for more than its' Magic rating. So that's only x12 in this case, which still makes the Gryphon go something like 160 km/s, so you can fly around the Earth in a few minutes.

Drive safely and responsibly, chummers.

My players used a scaled-down version of this ridiculousness as their solution to a 'wreck this shopping mall' run. They simply got a sturdy van, loaded it up with shrapnel, tinkered whit its motor for a temporary speed-boost and then set a big spirit on it to accelerate it to several;times the speed of sound, and rammed it (remotely controlled) into the soon to be wrecked ruin.

[Fable Wright]

The lightspeed will last precisely until you hit the edge of the atmosphere, when the magic disappears like a fart in a hurricane, and you suddenly DEcellerate that much.

Oh, the lightspeed will DEFINITELY go away long before you hit space...

[Silva]

That's kind of my issue. It seems like people encounter the utter mess that is 5e Shadowrun, assume ALL shadowruns rules are unplayably bad and then go off to use some other system.

That's because they are. ALL Shadowrun rulesets are unnecessarily complex and slow when it comes to anything different than a simple skill test. The moment the group engage with combat, hacking, rigging, etc the game slows to a craw and players start yawning on each other faces.

Really, just get a corebook for fluff (I recommend 20th Anniversary for a modern take, or 2nd ed for a more gritty, retro vibe) and use it with your fave ruleset. There are lots of conversions out there, from Fate to GURPS to Apocalypse World.

[DigoDragon]

That's more than escape velocity, so make that bird space-proof.

My little NASA, Rocketry is Magic?

[Ignimortis]

My little NASA, Rocketry is Magic?

Imagine spending billions on rockets when you can take a state-of-the-art gunship for 3 million, make it space-worthy and then use magic to propel it into space! Oh, right...

That's because they are. ALL Shadowrun rulesets are unnecessarily complex and slow when it comes to anything different than a simple skill test. The moment the group engage with combat, hacking, rigging, etc the game slows to a craw and players start yawning on each other faces.

Really, just get a corebook for fluff (I recommend 20th Anniversary for a modern take, or 2nd ed for a more gritty, retro vibe) and use it with your fave ruleset. There are lots of conversions out there, from Fate to GURPS to Apocalypse World.

To be honest, I didn't find 5e or 4e rules to be that complex. They're overburdened with situational modifiers, but that's probably the hardest part. All of the other things are just par for the course for a crunch-heavy game, and it's not really more difficult to play than, say, 3.5e D&D.

[druid91]

That's because they are. ALL Shadowrun rulesets are unnecessarily complex and slow when it comes to anything different than a simple skill test. The moment the group engage with combat, hacking, rigging, etc the game slows to a craw and players start yawning on each other faces.

Really, just get a corebook for fluff (I recommend 20th Anniversary for a modern take, or 2nd ed for a more gritty, retro vibe) and use it with your fave ruleset. There are lots of conversions out there, from Fate to GURPS to Apocalypse World.

I mean, not really? Shadowrun 4e combat is fairly simple. The Only even slightly complicated part is explosions, and really that's only if you're in a constrained space. Hacking IS just a skill roll, or rather a series of skill rolls. Rigging is also just a series of skill rolls combined with equipment.

[Silva]

I mean, not really? Shadowrun 4e combat is fairly simple. The Only even slightly complicated part is explosions, and really that's only if you're in a constrained space. Hacking IS just a skill roll, or rather a series of skill rolls. Rigging is also just a series of skill rolls combined with equipment.

I think in the end it comes down to what one expects from combat and such susbsystems: if it's involving mini-game like granular procedures that may take hours to conclude, then it's good. But if one expects fast resolutions taking 10 to 15 minutes as to get the game moving , then it's not good. I've played Shadowrun 2nd/3rd/4th/5th editions and all them have slow combats/hacking/rigging subsystems that may take hours to resolve, especially with groups of people facing each other.

Tl;DR: Shadowrun is heavy and slow crunch, for good and Ill.

[LibraryOgre]

I think in the end it comes down to what one expects from combat and such susbsystems: if it's involving mini-game like granular procedures that may take hours to conclude, then it's good. But if one expects fast resolutions taking 10 to 15 minutes as to get the game moving , then it's not good. I've played Shadowrun 2nd/3rd/4th/5th editions and all them have slow combats/hacking/rigging subsystems that may take hours to resolve, especially with groups of people facing each other.

Tl;DR: Shadowrun is heavy and slow crunch, for good and Ill.

I'd also add that all of them involve a LOT of possible modifiers, and several different formulae. And, if you're the GM, it means knowing all of these formulae and modifiers and keeping them handy for whatever the players decide to do.

It's not coincidental that a lot of folks on ShadowRN played "Deckers are NPCs only".

[Silva]

I'd also add that all of them involve a LOT of possible modifiers, and several different formulae. And, if you're the GM, it means knowing all of these formulae and modifiers and keeping them handy for whatever the players decide to do.

It's not coincidental that a lot of folks on ShadowRN played "Deckers are NPCs only".

Yes, the hacking rules are specially offensive here. 5th edition tried to address that by allowing hacking on the move but frankly, while the devs don't redo the whole framework the slowness and fiddling will persist.

After I played Shadowrun using The Sprawl (an Apocalypse World cyberpunk hack), I don't want ever touch an official SR ruleset again. And I bet I would also prefer othe simple and fast rulesets too like Savage Worlds, Blades in the Dark, Cortex, Fate, etc damn even OD&D. xD

Btw, how is Shadowrun Anarchy? Is it simpler and more agile than it's bigger brother?

[LibraryOgre]

Yes, the hacking rules are specially offensive here. 5th edition tried to address that by allowing hacking on the move but frankly, while the devs don't redo the whole framework the slowness and fiddling will persist.

After I played Shadowrun using The Sprawl (an Apocalypse World cyberpunk hack), I don't want ever touch an official SR ruleset again. And I bet I would also prefer othe simple and fast rulesets too like Savage Worlds, Blades in the Dark, Cortex, Fate, etc damn even OD&D. xD

Btw, how is Shadowrun Anarchy? Is it simpler and more agile than it's bigger brother?

I've been tempted to set up a Savage Shadows hack. I know there are definitely some out there, but it amuses me to do them.

[druid91]

I mean. Hacking in 4e is 'Scan for Hidden Nodes' Which is one skill roll, then either a Brute Force Attack to Hack Quickly, or Probing the Node to Hack over a long period. Both are another few skill rolls, but in most cases just one or two of the same thing, the main difference being how long it takes and how many opportunities the target node has to detect you. Once IN the Node as an Administrator, that is the end of all Hacking.

Admittedly, if you try to perform cybercombat it gets more complicated, but frankly you have very little reason to do that once you possess an admin account. You just kick people you would fight from the node, because it has the same result. Most users/hackers wouldn't be killed by cybercombat anyway, so there's no reason to try to kill them. Mind you, it's not very 'Thematic' but really, there's utterly no reason to engage in cybercombat.

Combat is Initiative, Determine Actions, Roll Attacks, Roll Dodge. Roll Soak. Apply Damage. Repeat.

90% of Rigging should be done beforehand. The only complicated parts are more part of character creation then they are active play.

You can either issue commands. In which case the drone uses it's pilot program for skills and the drones stats. It's a Simple Action, if you tell the drone to do something it's not designed for, the GM can roll to see if it does something dumb.

You can use a command program. In which case you use Rigger Skill + Command (Aside from Perception in which case you use the Drone's Sensor Rating.) It's a Complex Action.

Or you can jump in, Simple Action. You use the Drones Stats plus Rigger Skill. From there you play the drone taking actions as if you were the drone. You can use Hotsim to boost your initiative if you want.

It's not complicated unless the player hasn't done prepwork, or didn't understand the rules to start with.

[Telwar]

The last time I ran a game, the problem was usually with people who didn't do things like pre-figure their pools for likely situations. Like the two-gun adept who didn't QUITE grok the rule ("split the pool, attack once with each weapon") and WHY you'd do that ('onslaught penalty' to defenses, so if he doesn't do much, the guy with the combat axe will have an easier time getting through). And I got a little tired of reminding him that a) he'd built his character to do this and b) could do it.

[Ignimortis]

The last time I ran a game, the problem was usually with people who didn't do things like pre-figure their pools for likely situations. Like the two-gun adept who didn't QUITE grok the rule ("split the pool, attack once with each weapon") and WHY you'd do that ('onslaught penalty' to defenses, so if he doesn't do much, the guy with the combat axe will have an easier time getting through). And I got a little tired of reminding him that a) he'd built his character to do this and b) could do it.

To be fair, dual-wielding in SR is terrible. Dividing your dice pool means that anyone who actually poses a threat will have more dodge dice than you have attack dice on each hand, and that -1 die penalty to the second dodge isn't worth it at all. Also, recoil stacks from both hands somehow. Your player with two guns probably didn't expect to miss half his shots just so that the melee dude could have an easier time hitting.

What our group did was to introduce a Double Tap (or Akimbo Fire?) Simple Action for dual weapons that allows you to make one attack roll and gives +1DV (helps to make pistols closer to heavier weapons if you're building for it), but costs a round of ammo from both weapons and uses the lowest Accuracy of the two with an additional -1 penalty.

[Ignimortis]

Back with a comment on hacking and stuff. While I don't play Deckers or Technos myself, I figured that I have to understand how they work, being the main char-op and numbers guy in my group.

Long story short, after 5 hours with SR 5e corebook I had three things:
1) a headache because the book is terribly put together
2) some better understanding how this stuff works
3) a half-finished beginner's guide to the Matrix that took up about 3.5 Google Doc pages and should probably take 6 or seven by the time I finish it. Maybe 10 if I go through all the Matrix Actions and Techno powers.

The SR 5e book takes about 40 pages for the Matrix and outright says "we don't have some content in here, wait for Data Trails", which means that 3/4 of those are either pictures or unrelated fluff or examples. It's also structured in the worst possible way, because most things are not talked about in order. If I had to redo the Matrix section, I'd do something like this:

1) What is the Matrix and what it consists of (talk about Grids, Hosts, Objects (Files/Devices/Personas/IC), PANs and WANs
2) Enter(ing and Using the Matrix: user modes (AR/coldsim/hotsim), noise, grid-hopping, Matrix Perception, running silent
3) Matrix Stats, Attack-Sleaze-DataProc-Firewall, Matrix damage and biofeedback damage
4) How to leave the Matrix (Jack Out and Reboot, dumpshock, being link-locked)
By the end of this, we're basically done talking about stuff that matters to non-Deckers. Make a little sidebar for other stuff that they might need to know (Device Rating affects your Firewall, good commlink = not cheap, slave your devices to your best Firewall or to your decker, some programs like Wrapper and Browser, running silent).

Then you get to actual hacking stuff.

5) A four-step process of hacking, i.e.
Find the Target (Matrix Perception explained earlier)
Mark the Target (Brute Force and Hack on the Fly)
Hack the Target (stuff you can do with marks)
Don't Get Caught (Overwatch Score)

6) Stuff about Hosts and IC, types of IC, etc?

7) Technomancers and how all of the above applies to them (or doesn't)

I figure that could fit into 10 or 12 pages at worst.

[Floret]

Btw, how is Shadowrun Anarchy? Is it simpler and more agile than it's bigger brother?

Absolutely simpler and more agile. Absolutely more free-form, the gm needs to grog how boosters work, but then you can transfer pretty much anything (build characters new though, the transfer rules are horribly unbalanced). Skills are what used to be skill groups, specialisations what used to be skills. Attributes are culled. Still feels "like shadowrun", though 4e/5e are all I ever played. I'm really happy having switched.

And then it has a weird narrative turn-taking mechanic bolted on. You can just ignore that for the most part. Find a way to deal with the few things that do "plot points" (who thought adding a separate, wholly distinct system of bennies to a system that had one already was a good idea?). My current suggestion would be make them edge tests. Also, knowlege and language skills have to be freeformed.

[Silva]

Thanks for the info on Anarchy! I'll get it as soon as budget allows (import taxes to Brazil these days are insane). So the "Plot points" part is easy to cut out? I'm not a big fan of the concept, don't even like Edge in 4e/5e to be honest.

_ _ _

By the way, new version of my Shadowrun hack for The Sprawl is up: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1If...1le8VNYYVL9xDr

Changed some archetypes to give more fiction-impacting moves over purely math ones.

Preview:

[Silva]

Btw, what paracritters do the Tir Ghosts use? (consider it pre-coup). We're meddling in the Tir borders and this could be useful for the GM to use. I see here that possible candidates seem to be birdmen, griffins, eyekillers and wyverns (???) for aerial insertions, and shadowhounds, myst lynxes and hellhounds for ground sorties. Is there an official info on this?

Edit: also, in post-coup Tir where did the badass Paladins went? One of the reasons we're assuming pre-Coup Tir for our canon is the presence of them as interesting opposition. If the Paladins are still hiding somewhere in post-coup Tir (maybe as part of some terrorist organization of something) then I would consider selling the idea of a post-coup Tir to the group.

[Lord Torath]

Disney just bought 21^st Century Fox. Well on its way to being a Triple-A Megacorp. Anyone ever involve Disney in any of their runs?