General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

[Delta]

Thanks to you both. I must admit now I've started to think about it, I find the idea fascinating. Not to mention potentially game wrecking for the poor Shadowrunners

How is it game wrecking? In my experience, hardly ever does a Shadowrunner get to the point where you ask the question "What kind of evidence can be used against me?" because honestly, if you've been caught and the authorities already suspect you of the crime, you've usually already lost (and of course if you get caught by megacorp security on megacorp property, all that goes out the window anyway, those guys can Mind Probe your sorry butt all they want, throw you away and lose the key or do whatever else they want as long as their superiors are willing to sign off on)

[comicshorse]

How is it game wrecking? In my experience, hardly ever does a Shadowrunner get to the point where you ask the question "What kind of evidence can be used against me?" because honestly, if you've been caught and the authorities already suspect you of the crime, you've usually already lost (and of course if you get caught by megacorp security on megacorp property, all that goes out the window anyway, those guys can Mind Probe your sorry butt all they want, throw you away and lose the key or do whatever else they want as long as their superiors are willing to sign off on)

Actually both in games I've run and been part of its come up few times. Enough to be a significant consideration

[Delta]

Actually both in games I've run and been part of its come up few times. Enough to be a significant consideration

Hm, okay interesting, in 20+ years of Shadowrun that's never come up once for me. If they got caught, it was only by corp security which usually ended up in "yeah, we could lock you away forever if we wanted to, but that wouldn't be profitable. So how about this high-risk job we have that needs doing, I'm sure we can come to some kind of arrangement..."

[LibraryOgre]

IME, Shadowrunners DO care about restricting physical evidence and material links, but generally once they're caught, it either become "Roll up a new character" or "Do a job for us."

So, just a fun thought:

You're on a job, and your boy gets caught. He comes back in a week and says "Look, I'm on probation. If I do this job for them, they let me go, but I need your help."

How far do you go to help them?

[comicshorse]

IME, Shadowrunners DO care about restricting physical evidence and material links, but generally once they're caught, it either become "Roll up a new character" or "Do a job for us."

Or so how do the rest of you feel about a Prison Break scenario
( Tried that in a game of mine. The P.C.'s plotted on and off for months about how to get their comrade out and then they eventually abandoned subtlety and hired a Free Spirit to Astral Gateway him out of there)

So, just a fun thought:

You're on a job, and your boy gets caught. He comes back in a week and says "Look, I'm on probation. If I do this job for them, they let me go, but I need your help."

How far do you go to help them?

Ironically given this started with a discussion of how far you could go with Detection spells the first thing you do is chuck every one you can at the returnee to make sure what he promised the Corp. wasn't your heads.

After that it very much depends on the job. Screw over fellow 'runners, no way. Go hunt down a toxic mage, sure for a mate. (Of course the mate owes you big now but hey that's life in the shadows, he's still getting 'mate's rates')

[Delta]

Not sure if there are many people with SR5 experience here, but I guess it doesn't hurt to ask. I'm building a mage for the very first time in SR5 and have no experience with the spirit types and how they're assigned to different fields depending on your tradition, can anyone tell me if these assignments really matter a lot? Is there a huge difference between what the different traditions can do with spirits, are some combinations especially recommended and useful? Or is it basically just fluff?

[DeTess]

Not sure if there are many people with SR5 experience here, but I guess it doesn't hurt to ask. I'm building a mage for the very first time in SR5 and have no experience with the spirit types and how they're assigned to different fields depending on your tradition, can anyone tell me if these assignments really matter a lot? Is there a huge difference between what the different traditions can do with spirits, are some combinations especially recommended and useful? Or is it basically just fluff?

In my games at least, it's been pretty much entirely fluff, but ask your GM to confirm that he won't complain if you use a spirit of man for something different than listed in your traditions suggestion. Basically though, most spirits have a very broad array of powers, so it doesn't matter matter too much what slots they're in,a s they could usually fulfill that particular task.

[jindra34]

Not sure if there are many people with SR5 experience here, but I guess it doesn't hurt to ask. I'm building a mage for the very first time in SR5 and have no experience with the spirit types and how they're assigned to different fields depending on your tradition, can anyone tell me if these assignments really matter a lot? Is there a huge difference between what the different traditions can do with spirits, are some combinations especially recommended and useful? Or is it basically just fluff?

There is a little more to it than fluff, if you want to use a spirit in association with a spell (for learning, casting or short duration sustain) that spirit should be of the one that in your tradition fits the school of the spell. And they vary a little in powers and stats, generally rule I've found is you want man somewhere.

[LibraryOgre]

Not sure if there are many people with SR5 experience here, but I guess it doesn't hurt to ask. I'm building a mage for the very first time in SR5 and have no experience with the spirit types and how they're assigned to different fields depending on your tradition, can anyone tell me if these assignments really matter a lot? Is there a huge difference between what the different traditions can do with spirits, are some combinations especially recommended and useful? Or is it basically just fluff?

Basically, the tradition you create should be consistent. Even if you start with "Well, I mostly look like a book Hermetic mage, but I have these couple changes to better suit what I want", that's FINE (assuming your DM is down with it). But if you want X = A and A =/= B, then you can't come up with X = B just because it would be really convenient for X = B right now.

Work out the mechanics of your tradition, run them by your GM, and make sure your tradition's fluff supports the mechanics for the most part.

[Delta]

I'm not trying to work out my own tradition but just trying to pick one, there are so many to choose from already. Mostly debating between Chaos magic and Sioux (not sure if they're also in the original version of the 5e magic source book, I know a lot of stuff was added in the german translation) since I'm trying to build a Troll mage so it should use Intuition for drain, since Charisma sucks even worse and I'll need INT high for defense rolls anyway so I wasn't sure whether the choice of spirits made a big difference or not.

[Ignimortis]

There is a little more to it than fluff, if you want to use a spirit in association with a spell (for learning, casting or short duration sustain) that spirit should be of the one that in your tradition fits the school of the spell. And they vary a little in powers and stats, generally rule I've found is you want man somewhere.

I'm pretty sure that if the spirit doesn't do certain things in your tradition (as in, a spirit of earth doesn't do combat for Hermetic mages), it won't follow an order to do that. So you do have to use Spirits of Fire for combat, for example. Can't recall where the rule for that was, but I do remember reading something about that.

[Delta]

I'm pretty sure that if the spirit doesn't do certain things in your tradition (as in, a spirit of earth doesn't do combat for Hermetic mages), it won't follow an order to do that. So you do have to use Spirits of Fire for combat, for example. Can't recall where the rule for that was, but I do remember reading something about that.

That's not how it's written in the rules as far as I can see. The "aspect" of a spirit is only relevant if you call on the spirit to aid you specificially with a certain spell or ritual, a spirit can only support a spell from the aspect it has in your tradition.

At least I didn't find anything that restricts other spirit services in that regard, if a spirit has a power, you can command it to use it however you wish, nothing stopping you from having a spirit of healing use an "accident" power or something similar. Might be wrong though since I've only read through it once for this character.

[Waar]

That's not how it's written in the rules as far as I can see. The "aspect" of a spirit is only relevant if you call on the spirit to aid you specificially with a certain spell or ritual, a spirit can only support a spell from the aspect it has in your tradition.

At least I didn't find anything that restricts other spirit services in that regard, if a spirit has a power, you can command it to use it however you wish, nothing stopping you from having a spirit of healing use an "accident" power or something similar. Might be wrong though since I've only read through it once for this character.

I made the same assessment as you did for a 5e game I GM:ed, though you could check if your GM has a different take on it.
In general each tradition has access to 5 types of spirits, and they have slightly different capabilities, so which type of spirits you want to be able to summon might affect your choice of tradition.

[Ignimortis]

That's not how it's written in the rules as far as I can see. The "aspect" of a spirit is only relevant if you call on the spirit to aid you specificially with a certain spell or ritual, a spirit can only support a spell from the aspect it has in your tradition.

At least I didn't find anything that restricts other spirit services in that regard, if a spirit has a power, you can command it to use it however you wish, nothing stopping you from having a spirit of healing use an "accident" power or something similar. Might be wrong though since I've only read through it once for this character.

Found it randomly...

Mages of that particular tradition may only summon the spirits listed with the tradition, and they are restricted in the
tasks they can assign them. Assigning tasks outside the general area of their tradition will not receive a response from the spirit (for example, a Buddhist mage telling an air spirit to heal him will get no response, as air is a Combat spirit in that tradition, while the Health spirit is earth).

[LibraryOgre]

So, I'm almost positive this is answered somewhere, but...

Is Mind Control regarded as an affirmative defense in Shadowrun? Like, if you can prove you were mind controlled, you're not guilty?

[Misereor]

So, I'm almost positive this is answered somewhere, but...

Is Mind Control regarded as an affirmative defense in Shadowrun? Like, if you can prove you were mind controlled, you're not guilty?

I don't recall a direct quote, but it would seem extremely likely, since mind controlling spells are highly illegal unless you have the proper license.
2nd ed. had a lot of legality data in the equipment charts (for UCAS. YMMV).

[DigoDragon]

So, I'm almost positive this is answered somewhere, but...

Is Mind Control regarded as an affirmative defense in Shadowrun? Like, if you can prove you were mind controlled, you're not guilty?

I could not find any articles about Mind Control spells in a court of law. I guess Runners generally don't see the inside of a court room as most are SINless non-persons. Well, my counter question is, can you prove mind control was used? How long does the aura of such a spell linger for a mage to pick up on it?

[LibraryOgre]

I was gonna buy a PDF to check, but DTRPG doesn't seem to have that one.

[Inspector Valin]

So, I'm almost positive this is answered somewhere, but...

Is Mind Control regarded as an affirmative defense in Shadowrun? Like, if you can prove you were mind controlled, you're not guilty?

I could not find any articles about Mind Control spells in a court of law. I guess Runners generally don't see the inside of a court room as most are SINless non-persons. Well, my counter question is, can you prove mind control was used? How long does the aura of such a spell linger for a mage to pick up on it?

This is what you have forensic mages for!

I too can't cite chapter and verse. The bit I recall is that if it's evidenced you used Mind Control on someone, you're on the hook for everything they did while under mind control, in addition to that crime. Which I guess implies by proxy it's at the very least highly mitigating, right? If the prosecution can prove you had intent to commit the crime regardless it could get more complicated, and then there's the question of social adepts, lots of grey areas here.

[Shredni]

Hi All.
Just looking for a consensus of opinion on a couple of topics that I have recently experienced, pertaining to Shadowrun 5th edition. Please feel free to share your thoughts.
1) Adepts are too overpowered.
2) Adepts can effectively get two power points per initiation grade, one for raising their magic and one from picking 'power point' as their initiation benefit.
3) Adepts must turn all powers on or off. If they are on and they go through a mana barrier their powers are switched off and they may permanently loose them.
4) If an Adept has powers on, an astal mage can attack them with spells, by 'grounding' them through the adept abilities.
5) If an Adept has astral sight they still cannot affect astral space or anything in it.

Comments please...

[Ignimortis]

Hi All.
Just looking for a consensus of opinion on a couple of topics that I have recently experienced, pertaining to Shadowrun 5th edition. Please feel free to share your thoughts.
1) Adepts are too overpowered.

Not really. Adepts who dip into 'ware to cover for their weaknesses as adepts are somewhat overpowered, but "pure" adepts are just fine. Mystic Adepts are overpowered and need to be more similar to aspected magicians - you choose either Spellcasting or Conjuring, and that's it. Mages, in general, are far more OP than pure Physical Adepts.

2) Adepts can effectively get two power points per initiation grade, one for raising their magic and one from picking 'power point' as their initiation benefit.

Yes for regular Adepts, but they would still like to have some metamagics beside "power point". Take note that Mystic Adepts cannot get PP from raising Magic - only from taking one at initiation.

3) Adepts must turn all powers on or off. If they are on and they go through a mana barrier their powers are switched off and they may permanently loose them.

Absolutely not. Adepts are NOT dual-natured and do not have active spells, thus mana barriers do not impede them in any way, UNLESS they're astrally perceiving through Astral Perception power. While astrally perceiving (and only then), they are dual-natured and can be stopped by a mana barrier. At all other times, even with other powers that require activation, they are free to go through with no problem. See p.315 of the Core Rulebook.

4) If an Adept has powers on, an astral mage can attack them with spells, by 'grounding' them through the adept abilities.

No. As long as they are not dual-natured (see above), they cannot be affected by anything on the Astral Plane.

5) If an Adept has astral sight they still cannot affect astral space or anything in it.

No. As long as an adept is astrally perceiving, they are dual-natured and thus can affect things or creatures on the Astral Plane physically. However, if something is astral-only, like a projecting mage or a non-materialized spirit, they have to use Astral Combat rules (p.315, Core Rulebook again) - so an adept hitting such a target has to roll Astral Combat + Willpower [Weapon Focus accuracy or Phys Limit if unarmed], and deals damage as per weapon, but with CHA instead of STR.

[Delta]

Igni put it well, not much to add here. One additional point, whenever you talk about "grounding" things from astral space, that has literally not been a thing for two decades now, "grounding is dead" was one of the taglines for SR3, the only thing you can "attack" in astral space is something else in astral space. So yeah, if an Adept is using astral perception, a projecting mage or spirit on the astral plane could fry him with a spell, but you can never attack anything that's not active on the astral plane by "grounding" your attack through something else. Back in good old SR2, you could throw a fireball at the active focus of a completely unaware mage and blow up him and everyone around him, which they soon realized was a horrible concept that made mages almost unplayable if the GM reacted appropriately to it.

As to Adepts being OP, the one thing you could argue is that magic is, and almost always has been, pretty much OP throughout all editions. An effective, specialized magic user will almost always be better at his specialty than a comparable non-magic character (except matrix and rigging, obviously, although back in SR3 and before, actually a mage was the best vehicle combat weapon you could have, since vehicles had no resist roll a single success on a physical spell with a "D" damage rating immediately killed any vehicle. I once ran an adventure where a powerful mage literally snapped three heavy attack helicopters out of the sky in one round which were still miles away), that has been valid for any edition since at least SR2, SR6 might actually limit that insofar as drain seems to be almost impossible to avoid now.

[LibraryOgre]

As to Adepts being OP, the one thing you could argue is that magic is, and almost always has been, pretty much OP throughout all editions. An effective, specialized magic user will almost always be better at his specialty than a comparable non-magic character (except matrix and rigging, obviously, although back in SR3 and before, actually a mage was the best vehicle combat weapon you could have, since vehicles had no resist roll a single success on a physical spell with a "D" damage rating immediately killed any vehicle. I once ran an adventure where a powerful mage literally snapped three heavy attack helicopters out of the sky in one round which were still miles away), that has been valid for any edition since at least SR2, SR6 might actually limit that insofar as drain seems to be almost impossible to avoid now.

I mean, the lore includes a mage holding off a dragon, after said dragon had ripped open the plane the mage was travelling on.

[Ignimortis]

I mean, the lore includes a mage holding off a dragon, after said dragon had ripped open the plane the mage was travelling on.

That's....kinda bull by mechanics. Either the mage is a high initiate, like, into 10+ grades, and absolutely covered in protective spells, or the dragon can just smack him around bodily, no need for magic.

[Delta]

I mean, the lore includes a mage holding off a dragon, after said dragon had ripped open the plane the mage was travelling on.

Which never really made a lot of sense either.

But it's a problem for completely practical purposes if a moderately powerful mage can take apart a whole squadron of military vehicles in a matter of seconds as long as he can see them with no practical defense against it.

[comicshorse]

I mean, the lore includes a mage holding off a dragon, after said dragon had ripped open the plane the mage was travelling on.

Yeah even when I first read that (WAY back when) I immediately concluded that was no ordinary Mage and very probably the Dragon wasn't after the plane he was after the Mage and picked a battleground where he was in his element and the Mage had distractions galore.
The whole Elves Vs Dragons stuff in latter books convinced me the Mage was a disguised Elf the Dragon was after for some feud from previous Awakenings

Posted by Delta

As to Adepts being OP, the one thing you could argue is that magic is, and almost always has been, pretty much OP throughout all editions. An effective, specialized magic user will almost always be better at his specialty than a comparable non-magic character (except matrix and rigging,

Actually in a previous game my Physical Adept shared an enthusiasm for street racing motor bikes with the Rigger. With a kindly G.M. letting me buy Improved Ability Dice for Ride (Motorbikes) and Centering on top of that it made me a better rider than the Rigger (according to him)

[DeTess]

Actually in a previous game my Physical Adept shared an enthusiasm for street racing motor bikes with the Rigger. With a kindly G.M. letting me buy Improved Ability Dice for Ride (Motorbikes) and Centering on top of that it made me a better rider than the Rigger (according to him)

Did the rigger forget to buy that one piece of kit that supercharges any vehicle he jumped in to? The adept might get more dice, but the rigger will have higher speed, acceleration and handling which should make up for that in most racing situations.

[DigoDragon]

Yeah even when I first read that (WAY back when) I immediately concluded that was no ordinary Mage and very probably the Dragon wasn't after the plane he was after the Mage and picked a battleground where he was in his element and the Mage had distractions galore.
The whole Elves Vs Dragons stuff in latter books convinced me the Mage was a disguised Elf the Dragon was after for some feud from previous Awakenings

This was my conclusion as well. If the dragon just wanted to destroy the plane, that would be easy. The dragon wanted this mage dead and attacked them directly to ensure there was a body to prove it.

[druid91]

If this is the incident I'm thinking of, that was literally a specialist dragonslayer from the fourth world who the Dragon was going after for killing Dragons while they were weakened during the fifth world.

Though speaking of Dragons, I recently came across the surprisingly playable april fools release of rules for playing lesser, but still full fledged, dragons.

[DigoDragon]

Though speaking of Dragons, I recently came across the surprisingly playable april fools release of rules for playing lesser, but still full fledged, dragons.

Which, either sadly or ironically (maybe both), are better rules than the Dracoform presented in 4e Runner's Companion for playing a dragon.


For complete silliness, there's also the Friendship is Tragic mission.