General Shadowrun Questions III: Ya like that, Chummer?

[Misereor]

Um... if they're perceiving by 'emotional content' then they'll have a hard time noticing the autodrive city bus about to hit them.

To say nothing about stuff like furniture, doors, drones, and vats of acid. I mean it's one thing to say that they don't notice a TV. But that makes the attack drone shooting missiles at it is "invisible".

I'm pretty sure that the emotional content thing only goes for astral perception.

But it could be interesting...
"I tell my spirit to clean the fridge"
"Sorry, no can do. You have to develop an eating disorder first, to imbue it with emotional content. Or possibly hide a dead body inside it."

[Lord Torath]

I always understood that the only "light" you could see in astral space was from living things, spells, and background count, and there was no color in mundane objects. So you couldn't read anything on a typical com screen or sheet of paper, but you could read braille and embossed writing.

You could make an LCD display back-lit by living cells* a braille/sand table display, but I'm really not sure why you'd want to. You'd need a way to keep the cells alive, and all you'd really be doing is making it so you can be spied upon from astral space.

* Assuming you can see through transparent objects in astral space, which I don't recall if you can. If not, you'd need to do something like a sand table.

[Ignimortis]

* Assuming you can see through transparent objects in astral space, which I don't recall if you can. If not, you'd need to do something like a sand table.

You can't. Glass is non-transparent in astral.

[DigoDragon]

Obviously they haven't watched a Pixar film. ;)

So, if spirits need emotional content to 'read' something, then is their sight in normal space the same as ours is in astral? Just shapes with auras based on the life force of each thing? Is that what they're trying to go for? I'll buy it if that's the deal, but that would mean spirits can't see you if you hide in your car.

[Lord Torath]

Yeah, I've got to assume that spirits see in the real world (assuming they are manifesting) the same as we do, and we see in astral space the same way they do.

Can spirits and other astral natives "mundanely perceive" the way that magicians can astrally perceive without fully projecting to the astral plane?

[Eldest]

Um... if they're perceiving by 'emotional content' then they'll have a hard time noticing the autodrive city bus about to hit them.

To say nothing about stuff like furniture, doors, drones, and vats of acid. I mean it's one thing to say that they don't notice a TV. But that makes the attack drone shooting missiles at it is "invisible".

Find a decker that does the old school, keyboard and screen rig, and tell me there's no emotions towards the electronics.

[LibraryOgre]

Personally, I simply go with "Spirits which have Materialized can read things that use visible light". It may not be 100% BTB, but it is much easier to make sense of.

[DigoDragon]

Random thought--if a mage was prepared for it (i.e. readied action), could they catch a falling ally with a levitation spell?

[Lord Torath]

I'd allow it, assuming they successfully cast the spell and passed their drain test. I'd also allow an air elemental to catch a falling person/object.

[comicshorse]

Seems perfectly reasonable to me

[Vknight]

6th EDITION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

May it please save us from the broken lore mess that is 5th edition or in other words a group of 2e fanboys hating on things changing!

That is all

[Lord Torath]

6th EDITION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

May it please save us from the broken lore mess that is 5th edition or in other words a group of 2e fanboys hating on things changing!

That is all

There's an app thread for that.

[Vknight]

There's an app thread for that.

I know i just wanted too remind everyone man what was the blog about Shadowrun mishaps from way back in the 2000s

[Ignimortis]

6th EDITION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

May it please save us from the broken lore mess that is 5th edition or in other words a group of 2e fanboys hating on things changing!

That is all

It won't. The same people who made 5e are at the helm and have no intention of going away. But I wish they would, because maybe someone competent would pick up the franchise. My ventures into corebooks of 2e through to 5e confirmed my suspicions - everything was already in place, you just needed to mix some of 2e, some of 3e, and some of 4e to produce a good game which would've satisfied 80% of Shadowrun fans at least.

[Eldest]

I know i just wanted too remind everyone man what was the blog about Shadowrun mishaps from way back in the 2000s

The C.L.U.E. Files. Go forth and google.

[Lord Torath]

The C.L.U.E. Files. Go forth and google.

Or simply go back one page:

EDIT: And, since there may be folks who haven't seen them before: The CLUE Files.

[ZinZenWho]

Hi, long story short my shadowrun dm is sick to death of 5th edition shadowrun and is changing to 2nd edition shadowrun, do any of you know of a conversion. any help would be much appreciated.

[LibraryOgre]

Hi, long story short my shadowrun dm is sick to death of 5th edition shadowrun and is changing to 2nd edition shadowrun, do any of you know of a conversion. any help would be much appreciated.

Yikes. Backporting like that could be hard; Lord Torath is the local 2e expert, so I'll defer to him, but...

I'd personally lean towards a mix between "Make in 2e" and "Creative interpretation into 2e".

I would take your Agility and Reaction stats and average them to make Quickness. I would average your Intuition with your Charisma to make Charisma. I would refigure your Reaction stat based on your new, 2e, Quickness and Intelligence.

Magic, if you have it, is set to 6, minus any changes to Essence, plus any initiation grades (naturally).

For skills, that gets tricky. Any Skill Groups you have (I think that's the term) become your new Top-level skills; your actual skills become the concentrations and specializations they would be in 2e.

Everything else? Backport as best you can. Find equivalents in 1e-3e sources (3e is, IIRC, mostly compatible at the equipment level).

[Kyrell1978]

Hi, long story short my shadowrun dm is sick to death of 5th edition shadowrun and is changing to 2nd edition shadowrun, do any of you know of a conversion. any help would be much appreciated.

I'd pretty much go with a "make a 2e character and see how much karma they'll give you" approach to that one.

[Lord Torath]

Hi, long story short my shadowrun dm is sick to death of 5th edition shadowrun and is changing to 2nd edition shadowrun, do any of you know of a conversion. any help would be much appreciated.

Yikes. Backporting like that could be hard; Lord Torath is the local 2e expert, so I'll defer to him, but...

Comicshorse is also very knowledgeable about 2E, though I think he's more familiar with 3E. I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm mistaken.

I've never heard of a standard conversion from 5E back to 2E (but then, I don't really get out to the more current versions much).

I'd recommend talking to your GM about how he wants to handle character creation. Is he going to allow the point-buy option from the Shadowrun Companion? Is he going to allow Edges and Flaws? Then take the base concept of your character and rebuild from there. What type of character are you planning on playing?

A few general things to keep in mind:

At Character creation, skills are very cheap, and attributes are relatively expensive. During gameplay, those are reversed. This holds for both the Point Buy and Priorities methods. Also, high values are cheaper at creation than in game play. Going from Str 1 to Str 2 costs 2 points at creation, and from Str1 to 6 costs 10 points (2 points per point). In play, going from Str 1 to Str 2 costs 2 Good Karma. Going from Str 1 to Str 6 costs 2+3+4+5+6=20 Good Karma.

To put it another way, having a 1 and a 6 starting out costs 14 build points. Raising that 1 to a 6 in game costs 2+3+4+5+6=20 good karma. Having a 3 and a 4 at creation costs the same 14 build points. Raising both of them to 6 in game costs 4+5+6 + 5+6=26 good karma. Both situations cost 14 build points. The first one costs 20 good karma to get both scores up to 6, while the second one costs 26 good karma.

Skill concentrations and specializations are only useful if that is the ONLY thing you intend to use the base skill for. For the same karma cost to be specialized in two different pistols, you could be equally skilled in ALL firearms (okay, all firearms up through light machine guns). For example, if you're making a Rigger and want to have weapons mounted on your drones, you need Gunnery. Concentrating in Gunnery - Vehicle Mounted makes sense. You're probably never going to be trying to fire a missile launcher or assault cannon unless it's attached to a drone or a car/truck/van. If you're playing a Merc, you probably won't want to concentrate, as you'll be expected to be proficient in missile launchers, assault cannons, heavy machine guns, grenade launchers, and any other heavy ordinance you come across. Same goes for all the other skills. If you're ever tempted to concentrate or specialize, see if there's ever a time you'd want to use the base skill in a situation outside your desired concentration. If so, don't concentrate.

When it comes to melee combat, reach is everything. If you have a longer reach than your opponent, you're very likely to win, even if your opponent has a higher skill with melee weapons. A Super Stun Baton is an excellent melee weapon, even for someone who's not focused on melee.

The most valuable Edge is Good Reputation. Any time there's a social test, you get a -2 bonus to the target number. That is everything from negotiating pay to searching your contacts for information. I cannot overstate how wonderful that -2 bonus in ALL social situations can be. Your credstick will thank me later!

Are you going to be a "crafty" character? Riggers, Deckers, and Mages all tend to spend their down-time building, designing, or repairing things. Home Ground is an excellent edge to pick, and choose your workshop. You get a -1 to all target numbers while in your home ground. Your merc or street samurai could have an armory where they make weapons, so it could benefit the more personally-combat oriented as well.

Another great Edge is Skill Aptitude. It's another -1 to target numbers whenever you use that skill. I'd recommend against choosing any skills you'll regularly use in combat, as the book warns they may be too powerful. Skills I've taken aptitudes in: Interrogation, Negotiation, Enchanting, and Computer Theory. Etiquette might be another good one to take. You can usually only take one Aptitude per character, so choose something useful. Combined with Good Reputation, you could be looking at a -3 target number bonus for negotiating your pay. That's pretty huge.

If you're looking for flaws to balance out the edges (and you don't already have something character-related in mind, like Blind or Alcoholic), I like to recommend Incompetence. It's the reverse of Skill Aptitude, adding +1 to your target number whenever you try to use the attached skill. You'll usually have a teammate who's a wiz at the thing you're incompetent in anyway. I've got a troll who is incompetent at firearms, gunnery, and cars, but is still good with bow and staff, and can drive motorcycles like nobody's business.

When it comes to lifestyle, the higher the better. Up to a point, anyway. I'd recommend the High Life. Yes, you need to fork over 10,000¥ per month, but you don't need to sweat the small stuff, and it also tells your GM he'd better be offering runs that pay at least that amount so you can meet your basic expenses (since the average is one run a month). If you just want a squatter lifestyle, yes, it saves you that 9,500 ¥ at the start, but then you get offered runs that maybe pay 1,000¥. After all, it's still twice your monthly expenses...

So now that I've offered a whole bunch of general advice, what specifics can I help with? OK, yes Mark, I do tend to go on and on....and on and on....

[comicshorse]

Comicshorse is also very knowledgeable about 2E, though I think he's more familiar with 3E. I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm mistaken.

3E is indeed my preferred version but I stopped keeping track of the new rules with 4th Ed so know nothing about 5th Ed

[SaurOps]

Yikes. Backporting like that could be hard; Lord Torath is the local 2e expert, so I'll defer to him, but...

I'd personally lean towards a mix between "Make in 2e" and "Creative interpretation into 2e".

I would take your Agility and Reaction stats and average them to make Quickness. I would average your Intuition with your Charisma to make Charisma. I would refigure your Reaction stat based on your new, 2e, Quickness and Intelligence.

Magic, if you have it, is set to 6, minus any changes to Essence, plus any initiation grades (naturally).

For skills, that gets tricky. Any Skill Groups you have (I think that's the term) become your new Top-level skills; your actual skills become the concentrations and specializations they would be in 2e.

Everything else? Backport as best you can. Find equivalents in 1e-3e sources (3e is, IIRC, mostly compatible at the equipment level).

Language skills are also a special case in 2e. Individual languages count as specializations; in chargen, this means that they automatically get bumped up 2 over whatever points you put into them, so getting a language at 3 only takes one skill point. At a high enough rating, you'll even have a general language family rating, though that would practically require getting your language skill up to the 6-8 range in chargen.


In play, there's no rating bump, but you do buy languages at the cheaper rate for specializations.

[DigoDragon]

Random thought in my head today: what's the average age that GMs put their gangers at?

The age bracket I've used often is between 17 and 23. The range where most people who know what they're doing with their life go to college for. Well, sort of I guess. XD

[comicshorse]

I'd always thought, especially in the Sprawl with things being so crappy and so little other opportunities. that kids would start in the gangs disturbingly early. 12 to 20, with by 20 them having kids of their own and having quit, or just being dead or in prison or been recruited by proper criminals

[LibraryOgre]

Random thought in my head today: what's the average age that GMs put their gangers at?

The age bracket I've used often is between 17 and 23. The range where most people who know what they're doing with their life go to college for. Well, sort of I guess. XD

Depends on the type of ganger, and their function. I think a lot will be in that range (if human); for orks, though, that's going to be the elders of the gang.

[ZinZenWho]

Thanks for the help, although most of it i can't use. For more reference we are converting a campaign in progress to 2e. and my character is cyberized. The first reply is helpful as it deals with character conversion ( at least i think the first reply is the one that said that) I was more wondering about equipment (and cyber were) that didn't exist in 2e and general ruled for converting/creating it in 2e. Again, any and all help is appreciated.

[comicshorse]

What Cyberware/gear does your character have that may need converting ?

[LibraryOgre]

Thanks for the help, although most of it i can't use. For more reference we are converting a campaign in progress to 2e. and my character is cyberized. The first reply is helpful as it deals with character conversion ( at least i think the first reply is the one that said that) I was more wondering about equipment (and cyber were) that didn't exist in 2e and general ruled for converting/creating it in 2e. Again, any and all help is appreciated.

9 times out of 10, the answer for backporting equipment is "Benchmark".

Does your 5e weapon do 9 boxes, and you're not sure what that means in 2e? Well, find another weapon or two in 5e that does 9 boxes, and find their 2e equivalent, and go with that.

Does your 5e equipment give you a +2 reaction? What does something else that gives you +2 reaction do in 2e (or 1e or 3e; they're close enough, IIRC, to be useful for backporting).

Or, post a mess of things you have questions about, and we'll bash it out for you.

[Kyrell1978]

So, if you were to do a SW conversion of Shadowrun, would you base it off the SWDX or go straight for Interface Zero and bolt on a magic system? Asking for a friend

[LibraryOgre]

So, if you were to do a SW conversion of Shadowrun, would you base it off the SWDX or go straight for Interface Zero and bolt on a magic system? Asking for a friend

I need to sit down with IZ to decide if that's how I want to handle decking.