Haley and Solt Lurkyurg

[Lacuna Caster]

I'm afraid I know nothing and care less about Bandi/Andana, and I would have to think a while to find five words to describe Lien or Oona. I don't mind them, exactly, but from what little I recall they have comparatively limited development or relevance. (Particularly in terms of direct commentary on altruism vs. retribution and independence vs. conformity- y'know, stuff that D&D is ostensibly about.)


Jasdoif, it seems to me there are two possibilities: Either Celia knows enough to realise that Greysky City is dangerous or she does not. One option makes her foolhardy but brave, the other makes her naive but not foolhardy. I suggest you pick one story and stick with it.

[Spellbreaker26]

Jasdoif, it seems to me there are two possibilities: Either Celia knows enough to realise that Greysky City is dangerous or she does not. One option makes her foolhardy but brave, the other makes her naive but not foolhardy. I suggest you pick one story and stick with it.

Celia acts both ways. At first she is too naive to notice how bad it is, but even after she does find out she's too arrogant to change her behaviour even a little.

[Unoriginal]

I'm not sure I'd take the early strip especially seriously either way, but if you had to attribute motives... I guess it's a plausible interpretation.

It puzzles me, however, that having shed his early gag-a-day rules-joke fanbase with a shrug, that the author would explicitly shy away from writing major women characters because of how Miko and Celia were received. I think there are discernible reasons, both good and bad, for why certain quarters of the fanbase disliked them, but to the extent that being women had anything to do with it the appropriate response would be '**** those people'.

IMO, I've never thought that anything about Miko's or Celia's actions, personalities, flaws or roles in the story had anything to do with them being women (aside from their (potential) relationship with Roy, who was established as being attracted to women).

Jasdoif, it seems to me there are two possibilities: Either Celia knows enough to realise that Greysky City is dangerous or she does not. One option makes her foolhardy but brave, the other makes her naive but not foolhardy. I suggest you pick one story and stick with it.

She refused to believe Haley saying it was dangerous, and didn't realize it until an evil wizard made a golem out of her boyfriend's corpse. Afterward, she realized how bad things were, but stick to her guns.

I'm not seeing the deviation. She's consistently behaving in such a way as to minimise loss of life, short of actually, y'know, killing people.

(All, by the way, while going to places and situations full of things that can snuff her permanently, which you seem to be continuously ignoring.)

She doesn't object with Haley killing to protect her, but she refuses to even engage violence to save Haley's life.

I will happily endorse the idea that there are certain fictional individuals so malevolent that kill-on-sight becomes quite permissible, but I can also understand Celia for shying away from the idea, and I'm seeing little evidence that this description applies to the bulk of Haley's colleagues.

The bulk of Haley's colleagues were literally going to brutally murder Haley and Celia. Killing them wasn't a "they're so evil they must be shot on sight", it was self-defense with the "as long as they're not stopped they will try to kill us" condition understood by both Celia and Haley.

Why, exactly, are their lives worth so much less than Haley's attachment to a ransom fund that she never actually uses?

Haley being attached to the treasure has little to do with it. Celia apparently believes that if you hurt an assassin who tried to kill you, you have to pay for their hospital bill, or at least that if you kill them, you have to pay to bring them back. She also believes that stealing is wrong.

Yet, she's willing to steal Haley's money to pay for bringing back a bunch of murderers.

Despite the fact that she made very clear she was not going to save Haley's life if it came at the cost of her principles.

And her survival and her whole plan to resurrect Roy hinged on Celia having Haley kill and steal things.

So, Celia is willing to break her principles (stealing is wrong) to pay for the dead thieves, but is not willing to break her principles (harming others is wrong) to save Haley's life.

You could argue that some of her principles are more important to her than others, true, but when you say to someone "sorry, I'm not going to save your life because of my principles. Btw, here is the bill I made you have to pay to save those people who tried to kill you because my principles say you have to", there is a problem.


Not to mention it comes pretty close to "sorry, I'm not going to save your life because of my principles. Saving your own life in this manner was wrong, you have to compensate your aggressors for the disservice you made them. My principles say you have to."

[Spellbreaker26]

The bulk of Haley's colleagues were literally going to brutally murder Haley and Celia. Killing them wasn't a "they're so evil they must be shot on sight", it was self-defense with the "as long as they're not stopped they will try to kill us" condition understood by both Celia and Haley.

Not only was it in self-defence Haley even points out that these people are, by and large, immoral themselves (she mentions a wife-beater, for instance).

But Celia also objected to the death of a Hobgoblin guard busy oppressing the local civilians, so at least she's being consistent - in a way that massively inconveniences people around her.

She's a Pontius Pilate, that's what she is. She doesn't actually care if they live or die she just wants what she tells herself are clean hands.

[Lacuna Caster]

Not only was it in self-defence Haley even points out that these people are, by and large, immoral themselves (she mentions a wife-beater, for instance).

She refused to believe Haley saying it was dangerous, and didn't realize it until an evil wizard made a golem out of her boyfriend's corpse. Afterward, she realized how bad things were, but stick to her guns.

She doesn't object with Haley killing to protect her, but she refuses to even engage violence to save Haley's life.

Of course she objects to Haley killing to protect her- she makes it very clear that this is a violation of her principles, and had done consistently before. And again, how does sticking to your guns when you know you are surrounded by potential danger, not count as bravery? Whipping out her lightning bolts could thin the crowd sufficiently that she would be in less danger, but she refuses to do it. What exactly was she supposed to do to stop Haley from killing on her behalf? Zap her with lightning?

What 'massive inconvenience' is Celia specifically inflicting on people by asking them not to kill? Would buying a cart from Mr. Lurkyurg have somehow broken the bank? Or taking a -4 penalty to perform subdual-damage attack rolls against the hobgoglin guards, which last I checked, was a basic combat option available to all classes? Given Celia manages to save Haley's life by negotiating with the guild after Haley had skewered dozens of their colleagues, which I can only describe as nigh-miraculous diplomancy, it's seems clear to me these people were willing to be talked down.

[Kish]

Well--"these people" minus Bozzok, when they were clearly losing. Hank was willing to be talked down, unsurprisingly in light of his previous relationship with Haley; Bozzok was, in the end, willing to accept nothing short of Haley's death or his own.

[Spellbreaker26]

What 'massive inconvenience' is Celia specifically inflicting on people by asking them not to kill? Would buying a cart from Mr. Lurkyurg have somehow broken the bank? Or taking a -4 penalty to perform subdual-damage attack rolls against the hobgoglin guards, which last I checked, was a basic combat option available to all classes?

Haley was almost certainly going to buy that cart (or con him out of it). As for the Hobgoblins, why should Belkar have left them alive? They're an invading force killing and enslaving humans, and even if Celia still objects to violence on moral grounds she should have at least taken that into account and not compared it to randomly killing an innocent civilian.

That's what really annoys me. Celia is annoyed about Belkar killing a hobgoblin, not about the hundreds of humans forced into flight or being enslaved.

[Unoriginal]

Of course she objects to Haley killing to protect her- she makes it very clear that this is a violation of her principles, and had done consistently before.

She certainly doesn't go "no, Haley, you can take down those people non-lethally" when they're threatening her life.

And again, she basically demanded that Haley get out of Azure City and go kill hostiles beings in the wilderness in order to get the money to raise Roy.

And again, how does sticking to your guns when you know you are surrounded by potential danger, not count as bravery?

*Person A see Person B being assaulted by a mugger with a knife and stands here watching*
*Person B calls for help*
-Person A: "Sorry, I can't help you, I'm against harming others."
*Person B get stabbed to death and the mugger turns toward Person A*
-Person A: "I'm so brave."

Whipping out her lightning bolts could thin the crowd sufficiently that she would be in less danger, but she refuses to do it. What exactly was she supposed to do to stop Haley from killing on her behalf? Zap her with lightning?

She could have accepted that her survival came at the cost of the death of those who wanted to kill her, or at least not blame Haley for fighting back rather than get harmed.

What 'massive inconvenience' is Celia specifically inflicting on people by asking them not to kill?

She doesn't when she asks. it's when she says she'd have rather watched Haley die than broken her principles, and then steal Haley's money while pretending to be morally superior, she is indeed inflicting massive inconvenience on people. In-universe, that is.

Would buying a cart from Mr. Lurkyurg have somehow broken the bank? Or taking a -4 penalty to perform subdual-damage attack rolls against the hobgoglin guards, which last I checked, was a basic combat option available to all classes?

No one but Beklar wanted to kill Lurkyurg, and he's a psycho on which neither Celia nor Haley had any control over. And why subdue the hobgoblins? They'd have gotten up and told everyone about being attacked, then resumed enslaving, torturing and killing humans, as it was their jobs to do.

Given Celia manages to save Haley's life by negotiating with the guild

No.

Celia did not save Haley's life by negociating with the guild.


Haley was winning. With a big enough margin that it was pretty clear she and the newly-freed Ranger could have destroyed all those who remained pretty easily.

The only thing Celia saved by negotiating was the Thieves' Guild.

which I can only describe as nigh-miraculous diplomancy

"So, we have a deal? You get to stay alive and powerful, no one hears the Guild got rekt, the Guild get a boost in reputation for a clever and very lucrative scheme, and Haley has to pay you a ridiculous amount of money."

"You're truly a negotiator unlike any other I've seen, Miss Celia."

it's seems clear to me these people were willing to be talked down.

Hank was, once it was clear his side was losing the battle, and more importantly was losing way too much money in this business.

Bozzok just wanted Haley to die, and the rest just followed their leader (and the money)

[Lacuna Caster]

Well--"these people" minus Bozzok, when they were clearly losing. Hank was willing to be talked down, unsurprisingly in light of his previous relationship with Haley; Bozzok was, in the end, willing to accept nothing short of Haley's death or his own.

I'm not sure the situation was that clear-cut (even when Haley grabs that bow, she explicitly comments on how close she came to dying.) It's conceivable that diplomacy would have failed regardless, and/or that Bozzok/Crystal would've been hell-bent on revenge even if Haley hadn't broken the contract in a fairly emphatic fashion, but I find it unlikely that a higher body-count would somehow simplify negotiations.

Haley was almost certainly going to buy that cart (or con him out of it). As for the Hobgoblins, why should Belkar have left them alive?

Not the point. People are down on Celia because she's ostensibly refusing to make any accommodation for other's needs and values, when it would be frequently trivial for Haley and/or Belkar to accommodate hers. I see no sign of any such effort on their behalf.

...*Person A see Person B being assaulted by a mugger with a knife and stands here watching*
*Person B calls for help*

Again, not really seeing it. When push comes to shove, Celia does, in fact, risk her life for others sooner than stand by passively. Heck, given that she could have asked Haley to dismiss her at any time, it's her only reason for staying on this plane to begin with.

And since I don't want to get involved in a fisking match, I'm going to leave it there. Peace out.

[Jasdoif]

Not the point. People are down on Celia because she's ostensibly refusing to make any accommodation for other's needs and values, when it would be frequently trivial for Haley and/or Belkar to accommodate hers. I see no sign of any such effort on their behalf.

Not the point. Celia being more selfless than Haley still isn't a particularly notable bar (not even when Haley arguably makes token concessions for Celia's unwillingness to kill), and "more selfless than Belkar" only qualifies as a bar in an opposite-of-limbo sense.

[snowblizz]

It's conceivable that diplomacy would have failed regardless, and/or that Bozzok/Crystal would've been hell-bent on revenge even if Haley hadn't broken the contract in a fairly emphatic fashion, but I find it unlikely that a higher body-count would somehow simplify negotiations.

Bozzok broke the agreement way before Haley took out Crystal in retaliation for like half a dozen attempted assassinations a couple hours earlier while breaking into Grubwiggler. Which unfortunately is only shown in the bonus section in the Don't Split the Party book.
Both Bozzok and Haley knew the contract would not hold out because their interests were irreconcilable. Bozzok moved first, Haley made the more obvious move (the only one reallu shown to all readers).

[Cazero]

You know, since I don't own the book and didn't read the bonus strips, I kinda assumed that Bozzok would never have agreed to the whole thing and was still frozen solid when the Order skipped town.
Wich is kinda stupid considering all that gets achieved in the meantime.

[littlebum2002]

You know, since I don't own the book and didn't read the bonus strips, I kinda assumed that Bozzok would never have agreed to the whole thing and was still frozen solid when the Order skipped town.
Wich is kinda stupid considering all that gets achieved in the meantime.

So you're saying that if Buzzok had to choose between "being killed" or "not being killed, and potentially getting lots of money for the Guild" he would choose the former? Interesting theory.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So you're saying that if Buzzok had to choose between "being killed" or "not being killed, and potentially getting lots of money for the Guild" he would choose the former?

Wait, you wouldn't choose death? What the hell is wrong with you?

GW

[Cazero]

So you're saying that if Buzzok had to choose between "being killed" or "not being killed, and potentially getting lots of money for the Guild" he would choose the former? Interesting theory.

You forgot the third option, "using the opportunity to recover and regroup that Haley stupidly gave him to kill her and take all of her money rather than half of it".
But that's basicaly what he did. With an actual plan.

[atemu1234]

Suddenly I have this mental image of Celia with a microscope adding "and Solt Lorkyurg, gnome merchant" to the part where she stipulated every Guild thief would be raised from the dead in incredibly fine print.

I mean, it would be unsurprising to me at the very least.