Refining a Fire Themed Gish

[Seerow]

Okay so I just finished writing a long post detailing my character... that I'm going to put into spoilers instead in case anyone actually cares or wants more details. After I finished writing, I realized what I'm mostly looking for is suggestions of things I haven't already considered that would fit in well to a TWFing Fire Themed Gish character.

In particular spells, feats, or items that are particularly useful in the archetype. Bonus points if the spells in particular are of the flashy sort that would make for a great performance. But also generally useful things like easy ways to get fast movements for full attacks (I assumed with 5th level arcane spells this would be easy, but having a lot of trouble), defenses that I absolutely need to make room for, thematic out-of-combat spells, or anything that fits the archetype that is obscure enough I may not have caught it on a casual search.

Current level is 12 with 10 BAB and 10th level Sorc Casting, but also looking ahead. This is a campaign where bonus feats/skills may occasionally be awarded instead of levels, so fun interesting feats that don't normally quite make the cut are also worth pointing out.

As an aside I am nearly certain I saw a feat a while ago that lets you use UMD to cast staff spells with your own spell slots, but cannot find it again and if anyone can point me towards it I would greatly appreciate that.

Spoiler: The Post that Never Was

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Getting back into playing for first time in a while, and working on a character for a campaign I'm jumping into.

I've got the character pretty much done, but wanted to see if anyone had some suggestions for refinement. To start, a little about the character: The basic inspiration for the character is a polynesian fire dancer. The ones who spin flaming batons around. In this case the Baton is a Quarterstaff. Or a Staff as it may be.

The character himself comes from a Tribal background. He was heir to a mantle of leadership and protection of his people... but it wasn't a role he particularly cared about. His personal focus was more on entertainment and having fun, kind of a goof or slacker kid. Some bad stuff happens, wipes out the people he was supposed to be protecting while he is powerless to stop it. Gives the kid a wake up call and gets him into the adventuring business.

Current build is Human Paragon 1/Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 4/Human Paragon +2/Dragon Slayer 1/Eldritch Knight 4

So Sorcerer based gish, extra limited spells known, but gain casting in light armor, medium BAB and pretty stellar HP. Overall, I lose 2 BAB and 2 caster levels throughout my career. From here I'm set until 18, and if the campaign goes past that I can finish out in Abjurant Champion or whatever.


Current build details:

Spoiler: Feats

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Flaw) Versatile Performer
1) Weapon Focus(Quarterstaff) [Sorcerer Bonus Feat]
1) Ancestral Relic
1) TWF [Human Bonus Feat]
3) Dodge
6) Practiced Spellcaster [Human Paragon Bonus Feat]
6) Power Attack
9) Arcane Strike
9) ITWF [Eldritch Knight Bonus Feat]
12) Eilservs School

The flaw feat was approved for the explicit purpose of taking a roleplay centric feat, changing that to something with more utility is non-negotiable. Something with similar levels of utility/flavor may be acceptable if there are more interesting options I didn't consider.

Other feats I can see rearranging if needed. Practiced Spellcaster in particular didn't feel particularly necessary to me, but didn't have anything particularly better I wanted in that spot.

I feel like TWFing and Eilservs School are really the feats that define the build. You just never see a TWFing Gish, and Eilservs School is a neat feat that I have literally never seen in play before. I also seem to remember there being a UMD based feat that lets you cast spells from a staff using your spell slots instead of spell charges. I feel like that would synergize awesomely with Eilservs School, but I am having trouble finding it. So if anyone can point that out to me, or make other suggestions, that would be awesome.

Spoiler: Notable Items

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Above I have noted the Ancestral Relic feat. In this case the Ancestral Relic is a literal Mantle that the character wears, a hereditary mark of his position as protector. This mantle occupies the Shoulders slot (like a Cloak) and acts as a Runestaff (with a 50% cost markup due to being in a weird slot instead of being held), as well as standard stat boosting (ie +cha and +res to saves).

The idea here being that the Mantle's powers grows along with Turk, providing greater access to powerful Fire Magic and personal protection. Currently the Mantle has about 24,000gp invested in it with the following spells known being provided 3/day as a runestaff:

-Kelgore's Firebolt
-Scorching Ray
-Resist Energy
-Fireball


In addition to that, he has his Staff, Kronulach - The Twin Flames. This has been his major investment since starting to take adventuring seriously; it functions as a +1 flaming quarterstaff on both ends, and also as a modified Staff of Fire with slightly different spells included, but of the same levels and charges, so same cost.

-Burning Hands (1 charge)
-Wreath of Flames (1 charge)
-Explosive Cascade (2 charges)

These are primarily activated only as a free action via Eilservs School, so there's the option of the cheap quick AoE blast, the long duration self buff, and Explosive Cascade for when I need a Fireball that I can shape to hit exactly who I want.

So he has some other standard items, but these are the two that are most notable in defining the character. They provide him with some more combat options and visually distinguish him from other characters.

Spoiler: Spells Known

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0th [9]
-Daze
-Flare
-Dancing Lights
-Ghost Sound
-Unnerving Gaze
-Stick
-Prestidigitation
-Sending
-Light

1st [4]
-Blades of Fire
-Swift Expeditious Retreat
-Raging Flame (fire within area burns twice as hot and deals double damage. magic fire deals +1 damage per die)
-Endure Elements
-Burning Hands [Staff]
-Kelgore's Firebolt [Mantle]

2nd [3]
-Pyrotechnics
-Body of the Sun (all creatures within 5ft take 5d4 fire damage per round)
-Palarandusk's Fire Breath (breath fire)
-Scorching Ray [Mantle]

3rd [2]
-Body Blaze
-Greater Mighty Wallop
-Wreath of Flames [Staff]
-Resist Energy [Mantle]
-Fireball [Mantle]

4th [1]
-Firestride Exhalation
-Explosive Cascade [Staff]

5th [1]
-Shroud of Flame

So, Stalwart Battle Sorcerer means pretty limited spells known list. On top of that, the character's still a performer at heart. So most of his personal spells known are focused more on the sort of flashy spells he could use for entertainment. Pretty much the only exception to that here is Greater Mighty Wallop. But the items mentioned above augment the spell list, and give some extra options. Those extra spells are included here for ease of reference.


I feel like the is pretty well rounded on the combat front, the main thing missing is some form of swift movement or pounce (I couldn't find a way to get Lion's Charge on a sorcerer and couldn't find any solid low-mid level swift movement spells). I am pretty firm on the flavor of the character, but I'm sure there's a lot of things I just haven't thought of to help flesh it out more.

Edit: Oh, and the system is 3.5 primarily but we can request PF stuff on a case by case basis. So if there's something particularly awesome or fitting there, it is potentially an option and there's a high likelihood I've never heard of it. So it is worth pointing out.

[Tiri]

I'd advise the replacement of Dragonslayer and Eldritch Knight with Abjurant Champion. It's a far better class and doesn't require as many feats to enter.

[Seerow]

I'd advise the replacement of Dragonslayer and Eldritch Knight with Abjurant Champion. It's a far better class and doesn't require as many feats to enter.

I'm familiar with Abjurant Champion, but wasn't particularly interested in entering it with this character. I feel like the progression I have works well, and honestly I'm tired of seeing every gish ever going into AC. I know EK is even more bland, but it feels different to me for some reason.

Spoiler: Other Reasons

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1) I get to wear light armor, making the mage armor buffs less valuable
2) AC only lasts for 5 levels, so I'd be done with it at starting level (12). So level 13 I'm back to going into Dragon Slayer and EK, this just results in a smoother progression unless we get as high as level 19 (at which point I will probably consider AC)
3) The EK build is actually feat neutral compared to AC. (Combat Casting vs Dodge and Iron Will, but EK gains a bonus feat)
4) EK build comes out ahead feat-wise when you buy Iron Will for 3000gp via Otyugh Hole (in this case refluffed as the despair and hopelessness that comes about as a result of being an utter failure at the role you were born to fill)
5) Dragonslayer does grant Immunity to Fear and a minor bonus to damage against dragons. Neither is really a game changer, but nice little perks. The only perk of AC I'd honestly use is Arcane Boost, which isn't particularly great either.

[Tiri]

Well, if you want something fire-themed but still better than bland old EK, you might consider Jade Pheonix Mage without the Human Paragon levels. There's a nice ability at level 6 that gives a boost to fire spells.

With regards to AbjChamp, there's still Shield, and a bonus feat is worthless compared to a caster level.

[Seerow]

I'm not likely to change my mind on AC. It's a class that is literally only as popular as it is because the designers ignored the established norm of dropping a caster level in the class; and I planned my build specifically to avoid taking it as long as possible while keeping up respectable levels of gish.

For JPM I considered it, and will take a second look at it because my original glance at it was before solidifying the flavor of the build, and it could be pretty fitting. If I can make it work without losing too much else it's definitely worth considering. And a few low level maneuvers could help alleviate some of my issues with swift movement, I know there's at least one or two that will help me attack on the move.


But honestly I'm much more interested in feat/spell/item suggestions than the class build itself. Especially obscure things that might not normally make the cut in an optimized build but do something interesting or unique that would fit with the character. For example I was very happy to find Explosive Cascade and Body Blaze. I don't think I've ever seen either cast before in game, but both provide very interesting fire based options.

[Kurald Galain]

Edit: Oh, and the system is 3.5 primarily but we can request PF stuff on a case by case basis.

If PF things can be requested, how about the Magus class? Instead of choosing between attacking and casting each round, it lets you do both, every round. There's the Eldritch Scion archetype if you want to stay a charisma-based spontaneous caster, and it would have a comparable amount of spells per day to, and higher accuracy than, your build.

[noce]

Gloves of the balanced hand, from M.I.C., give you Improved TWF, so you can free a feat slot.

Pulverize foe is a feat from Champions of Ruin, it gives you +1d6 damage with each hit after the first. Specific for Bludgeoning weapons.

[Uncle Pine]

Invest some skill ranks in Tumble (remember that you can swap Ride for Tumble if the former is a class skill for a class but the other is not, as per Cityscape Web Enhancement), then buy a novice desert wing cloak (ToB 150) for 3,000 gp and choose Flame's Blessing. Stances are a special kind of maneuvers, so you can select Flame's Blessing with the item just fine as it has no other prerequisites. Proceed to set yourself on fire every morning. Don't exstinguish it. Scare the crap out of your enemies. Potentially set them on fire as well. Them or their stuff. Or their homes. Get creative.

It takes at least 9 ranks to be completely immune to nonmagical fire with Flame's Blessing, but with 4-8 ranks you'll still only take 1 damage on a max roll. If your DM insists that your equipment should take damage, make it fireproof (iirc Planar Handbook has prices for that, it's about 150 gp or something like that).

[ChaosStar]

You could go for Elemental Savant if you don't mind all of your energy spells having the fire discriptor. You become an elemental of your element choice once you hit level 10 in it and it requires a third level fire spell and the Energy Substitution feat. I quite like it even though a lot of people on the playground seem to have a problem with it.

[Tiri]

You could go for Elemental Savant if you don't mind all of your energy spells having the fire discriptor. You become an elemental of your element choice once you hit level 10 in it and it requires a third level fire spell and the Energy Substitution feat. I quite like it even though a lot of people on the playground seem to have a problem with it.

It's not a gish class, though.

[ExLibrisMortis]

First of all, get haste. It's a massive spell for both warriors and dancers. Wraithstrike is a great classic, too.

Second, I wouldn't use Power Attack with Two-Weapon Fighting, at least, not without a two-handed main-hand weapon (off-hands get no benefit from PA, due to being light weapons). I would also not use Dodge. I think you may be taking it as prerequisite for Dragon Slayer, but you're missing Iron Will.



If you're looking for a fiery performer with decent base attack and spellcasting, that begs the question why you aren't playing a bard or a dragon (or even both). I hope the following builds have some ideas you can use.

1) Silverbrow human bard 4/crusader 1/spellsword 1/jade phoenix mage 4/sublime chord 4/jade phoenix mage +6. At level 20, you have 17 base attack and 9th-level spells.
Feats: Versatile Performer^flaw, Dragonfire Inspiration^flaw, Ancestral Relic^human, Two-Weapon Fighting¹, Weapon Focus (quarterstaff)³, Song of the White Raven⁶, Eilservs School⁹, Words of Creation¹², Song of the Heart¹⁵, Arcane Strike¹⁸. There are a lot of feats fighting for the level 6-9 slots. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting is moved to a magic item.

The basic idea is that you're throwing a +6d6 Dragonfire Inspiration as a swift action (lasts five rounds, affects the whole party), then doing your usual full attack with TWF and Eilservs School.

There are other ways to get bardic music:
- Three levels in Prestige Bard on top of sorcerer, which makes Sublime Chord unneeded, but does cost you two caster levels (assuming you want Song of the Heart, which requires Inspire Competence).
- One level in Warrior Skald, which provides all the music and full base attack, though it does not advance casting, and requires Power Attack and Cleave. Since one level only provides one use of bardic music, this is not super efficient.
- One level in Heartfire Fanner, which provides 5th-level bardic music and advances casting. A very good choice.

2) For dragon builds, see this guide. It's very similar to the above, but you replace the bard and crusader levels with a Wyrm of War or Loredrake wyrmling dragon, and get bardic music from a one-level dip in Heartfire Fanner.

[Seerow]

Invest some skill ranks in Tumble (remember that you can swap Ride for Tumble if the former is a class skill for a class but the other is not, as per Cityscape Web Enhancement), then buy a novice desert wing cloak (ToB 150) for 3,000 gp and choose Flame's Blessing. Stances are a special kind of maneuvers, so you can select Flame's Blessing with the item just fine as it has no other prerequisites. Proceed to set yourself on fire every morning. Don't exstinguish it. Scare the crap out of your enemies. Potentially set them on fire as well. Them or their stuff. Or their homes. Get creative.

It takes at least 9 ranks to be completely immune to nonmagical fire with Flame's Blessing, but with 4-8 ranks you'll still only take 1 damage on a max roll. If your DM insists that your equipment should take damage, make it fireproof (iirc Planar Handbook has prices for that, it's about 150 gp or something like that).

This is exactly the sort of thing I was looking for. Incidentally I already had some ranks in tumble, and since the stance gives fire resistance it fits well with the sort of thing the Mantle should give.

First of all, get haste. It's a massive spell for both warriors and dancers. Wraithstrike is a great classic, too.

I could see justifying haste a spell known, Wraithstrike, as awesome as it is, doesn't feel like it fits right now. It is something I could consider as a spell known down the line, as the character picks up more spells known after being cemented as a more serious combatant.

Second, I wouldn't use Power Attack with Two-Weapon Fighting, at least, not without a two-handed main-hand weapon (off-hands get no benefit from PA, due to being light weapons). I would also not use Dodge. I think you may be taking it as prerequisite for Dragon Slayer, but you're missing Iron Will.

That's fair, I wasn't really thinking too much about it and just grabbed PA out of habit. Damage should be fine even without it. Dodge is for Dragon Slayer, Iron Will picked up via Otyugh hole for 3000gp.

If you're looking for a fiery performer with decent base attack and spellcasting, that begs the question why you aren't playing a bard or a dragon (or even both). I hope the following builds have some ideas you can use.

I played a DFI Bard who did Perform(Tesla Coils) not too long ago (read: the last campaign before I was forced by scheduling to stop playing D&D). Was looking for something different. Though I'll admit I never thought too much about gishing with DFI and Sublime Chord at the same time, your build is pretty elegant an squeezes a ton of stuff in. I think of all of the alternate class suggestions, I like this one the best. It even squeezes in the JPM which is a nice touch.

Also just googled Heartfire Fanner. It looks potentially interesting as well but those prereqs are pretty tough.

Gloves of the balanced hand, from M.I.C., give you Improved TWF, so you can free a feat slot.

Pulverize foe is a feat from Champions of Ruin, it gives you +1d6 damage with each hit after the first. Specific for Bludgeoning weapons.

I completely forgot about gloves of the balanced hand, freeing up that extra feat is great. Pulverize Foe is a pretty solid option for if I have an extra feat floating around, so that's perfect thank you.

[Anthrowhale]

Also just googled Heartfire Fanner. It looks potentially interesting as well but those prereqs are pretty tough.

If you take the feat apprentice[entertainer], then you have the class skills needed to enter HF. HF also notably allows you to grant any fighter feat which is fairly amazing.

The feat which allows you to power spell trigger items off of slots with UMD is "Channel Charge" from Lost Empires of Faerun.

You may want to look into the feat Searing Spell to avoid getting gimped.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Though I'll admit I never thought too much about gishing with DFI and Sublime Chord at the same time, your build is pretty elegant an squeezes a ton of stuff in. I think of all of the alternate class suggestions, I like this one the best. It even squeezes in the JPM which is a nice touch.

Also just googled Heartfire Fanner. It looks potentially interesting as well but those prereqs are pretty tough.

Glad it's hit the spot. For Heartfire Fanner, an interesting option may be to enter as Passion's Flame dragon. The archetype gives you Perform as class skill, and Rage, as a first-level barbarian (uses/day scales with sorcerer caster level, but strength doesn't improve). You can still use bardic music and martial maneuvers while raging, so if you use buff spells ahead of time, you can do some fancy fiery rage tricks in combat. Maybe even get Whirling Frenzy, if the DM allows (it's an variant of rage itself, not a different barbarian class feature, after all).


There's a soulmeld for 'being on fire', the Mantle of Flame. It's similar to a balor's flaming body: anyone striking you with a natural weapon or non-reach melee weapon takes damage (1d6 + 1d6/essentia). Always only a feat away!

[gr8artist]

Well typically the best martial builds involve some crowd-control combat maneuvers, like Trip or Disarm. Since you're filling (largely) the same role, you might want to consider getting some CC as well. Most DM's I know wouldn't object to flavorful refluffs of existing spells, or even in equivalent exchanges (changing the element type of a spell). And Fire is the most common energy type (and thus, the weakest), so changing a spell like "Lightning Bolt" to "Flame Bolt" would actually be a slight nerf.
With that in mind, look for spells that have concussive force or prevent your targets from taking certain actions. Fire can mimic flashes of light, explosive blasts, and the corrosion of acid. Thermal drafts might explain some wind-themed spells, or thick black smoke to mimic some darkness spells.

The following PF spells may be interesting: Battering Blast (3), Force Punch (3), or Forceful Strike (4) to knock opponents away after you finish your staff-whacking combo; Burning Disarm (1), Heat Stroke (3), Obsidian Flow (4), Ash Storm (3), and Sirocco (6) to disable your opponents; Fiery Runes (2), Draconic Resevoir (3), and Boiling Blood (2) for buffs; Spontaneous Immolation (2), Blood Blaze (2), and Volcanic Storm (4) for good damage spells.

[noce]

Since you're going to probably drop Power Attack, you may be interested in Combat Expertise, and then in Quick Staff from Complete Warrior. You have all the prerequisites, this feat increases your AC by an additional +2 while using Combat Expertise with a quarterstaff. Consider this if you feel confident about hitting things.

Another thing you could do, and I highly suggest you to, is swapping Dodge for Midnight Dodge, Magic of Incarnum. It specifically lets you qualify for things in place of Dodge, and you can just use the essentia it grants on other things.
For example, Shape Soulmeld: Mantle of Flame would do 2d6 fire damage to attackers, instead of 1d6. I read you're interested in Mantle of Flame anyway, so swapping Dodge for Midnight Dodge seems perfect for this.

[Particle_Man]

If your DM is amenable to pathfinder feats you might want to look at Prestigious Spellcaster, which lets you add a level of spellcaster (spells and all) to a prestige class that normally doesn't add a level every level. Helps to fill in the blank on Eldritch Knight, for example (note this only applies to missed levels in the prestige class, not missed caster levels from before taking the prestige class).