Bards ?

[cobaltstarfire]

The one character I played that was a bard (but not in a D&D game) was just able to activate magic with sound applied in particular ways, not much different from a wizard intoning words of power for a spell really.

She could whistle a jaunty little song and levitate objects, or attack at range with a single sharp whistle, or summon a shield with the correct pluck of her lutes strings. When originally describing her powers someone else showed me a clip from Kung Fu Hustle which did a decent job of illustrating some of the ideas I had for her abilities. She never really buffed anyone with song or anything like that though, and her main purpose was to gather information, sometimes by being a bard, and sometimes by being a sneak. I could see her manipulating peoples state of mind with music though, as it's possible to do that in real life (though not easy), that's where the "magical" part comes in I suppose.

My favorite image of a "Bard" are the Harpers from Dragonriders of Pern. They are all musicians of some sort, but the Harper Hall also tends to behave like a communication/spy network. It had a subtle influence on politics on Pern thanks to the fact that most holds have a Harper to teach and entertain. (and who wants to become the butt end of a joke in a Harpers song?)

In that way I tend to think of the "performance" part of what a Bard is doing shouldn't be taken at face value.

[daniel_ream]

1) that's hardly a high bar for "not facepalm worthy".

All of D&D is "facepalm-worthy", then, being an inchoate mashup of random things the designers happened to like. It's been that way since the beginning. Picking out bards to be perturbed by seems oddly specific.

[Thrudd]

Am I alone in finding the "magical bard" with "buffs and debuffs from playing/singing/poems/whatever" a facepalm-worthy concept?

I don't mean the concept of a poet-warrior or poet-"rogue", or a character who likes to sing or tell stories as part of their character concept, or even someone who fills the social role of a the skald or bard or troubadour.

I specifically mean the "my singing and playing are magical and have combat effects!" thing.

Not a big fan of the concept, either. Magical music I can see a niche for, but music that is used in combat, often while the person is also fighting, not so much. Especially in WotC editions of D&D, they are far too lax on how many and what sort of things characters can do while they are supposedly engaged in combat and being threatened by deadly attacks.

I wouldn't quite say "facepalm worthy", I mean it isn't out of the realm of imagination that magic might be activated by singing or music, nor that such magic could help out warriors going into combat or intimidate enemies (I love "Ride of the Rohirrim" from RotK: "...and they sang as they slew and the sound of their singing came even unto the walls of the city."). I just don't like exact way it's been implemented and made into an archetype for the current generation of D&D gamers, who now equate the term "bard" with someone who "buffs and debuffs". I get annoyed at the general misuse and redefining of real/historical terms in games and people who think that a game isn't complete without this or that specific character concept being available.

But talking about what one specific game calls "bard" and how that game's rules regarding their activity can be interpreted isn't really affected by that.

[Max_Killjoy]

Not a big fan of the concept, either. Magical music I can see a niche for, but music that is used in combat, often while the person is also fighting, not so much. Especially in WotC editions of D&D, they are far too lax on how many and what sort of things characters can do while they are supposedly engaged in combat and being threatened by deadly attacks.

I wouldn't quite say "facepalm worthy", I mean it isn't out of the realm of imagination that magic might be activated by singing or music, nor that such magic could help out warriors going into combat or intimidate enemies (I love "Ride of the Rohirrim" from RotK: "...and they sang as they slew and the sound of their singing came even unto the walls of the city."). I just don't like exact way it's been implemented and made into an archetype for the current generation of D&D gamers, who now equate the term "bard" with someone who "buffs and debuffs". I get annoyed at the general misuse and redefining of real/historical terms in games and people who think that a game isn't complete without this or that specific character concept being available.

But talking about how what one specific game calls "bard" and how that game's rules regarding their activity can be interpreted isn't really affected by that.

I think we're close to the same page, then -- especially the part that I bolded in the quote above.

See also, "druid", "paladin", etc. Or weapon and armor names.

All of D&D is "facepalm-worthy", then, being an inchoate mashup of random things the designers happened to like. It's been that way since the beginning.

You will find little disagreement from me on that statement.

Picking out bards to be perturbed by seems oddly specific.

It might be, but I've been asked not to make broad statements from specific starting point in narrowly defined threads.

[JAL_1138]

I specifically mean the "my singing and playing are magical and have combat effects!" thing.

It goes back to at least the Silmarillion (edit: in fantasy fiction). A great deal of the magic in it was musical in nature--including the creation of the world--and Luthien had a magic duel with Sauron (and won) where her spells were cast via song.

She also used musical magic to charm Morgoth himself and his entire court to sleep, so she and Beren could cut a Silmaril from his crown.

EDIT: And there's plenty of examples in myths and legends of various cultures. The Pied Piper comes to mind, but the tradition goes back further than that. Check out the TVTropes page on Magic Music for examples going back to the Bronze Age.

[Tiktakkat]

It goes back to at least the Silmarillion (edit: in fantasy fiction). . . .

EDIT: And there's plenty of examples in myths and legends of various cultures. The Pied Piper comes to mind, but the tradition goes back further than that. Check out the TVTropes page on Magic Music for examples going back to the Bronze Age.

In particular, it goes back to Finnish mythology with Lemminkäinen, whose name is not-coincidentally similar to Mordenkainen (of faithful hound and disjunction fame), one of Gygax's PCs.
And then add in the specific Celtic traditions that provided the name "bard", in particular the story of Cairbre writing the first satire which caused Bres, the half-fomorian king at the time, to lose his kingship, and you pretty much have all the core components of a class whose magic causes "buffs and debuffs from playing/singing/poems/whatever".

[Max_Killjoy]

In particular, it goes back to Finnish mythology with Lemminkäinen, whose name is not-coincidentally similar to Mordenkainen (of faithful hound and disjunction fame), one of Gygax's PCs.
And then add in the specific Celtic traditions that provided the name "bard", in particular the story of Cairbre writing the first satire which caused Bres, the half-fomorian king at the time, to lose his kingship, and you pretty much have all the core components of a class whose magic causes "buffs and debuffs from playing/singing/poems/whatever".

Not to argue, but to clarify -- were these combat effects?

And couldn't the social effects of bardic praise and ridicule be just that -- social, rather than magic?

[Morty]

The Bard class is somewhat similar to the Barbarian class in this way. The Bard, despite its name, can't cover a travelling musician who doesn't use magic. Such a character would be better-served by a Rogue who specializes in social skills. Just like the Barbarian class can't cover an actual barbarian (that is, someone living outside what's considered "civilization") unless they're also a raging berserker.

[johnbragg]

Am I alone in finding the "magical bard" with "buffs and debuffs from playing/singing/poems/whatever" a facepalm-worthy concept?

I don't mean the concept of a poet-warrior or poet-"rogue", or a character who likes to sing or tell stories as part of their character concept, or even someone who fills the social role of a the skald or bard or troubadour.

I specifically mean the "my singing and playing are magical and have combat effects!" thing.

I think so. What I mean is, lots of historical armies have employed musicians in combat, sometimes just as a means of communication, but often to boost friendly morale and break enemy morale. Youtube up some bagpipe music, bodran drumming just from my mostly-Irish background. Various other cultures have had similar setups.

I don't think it's that difficult to comprehend if you've ever been to a concert and gotten caught up in the emotion of it. Or even a game with thousands of other people cheering and chanting along.

I think it's entirely reasonable that, in a magical universe where mind over matter is an axiom, that music has crunch effects.

(Now, using this explanation would lead to a very different bard class than the ones in most of the books--something a lot more like the Marshal and a lot less useful for dungeoncrashing and dragonslaing--and with only a handful of options--Song of Fear, Song of Bravery, Song of Charming, Song of Sleep, Song of Healing, Song of Irresistible Dancing. But that's a different topic.)

[GungHo]

The Bard class is somewhat similar to the Barbarian class in this way. The Bard, despite its name, can't cover a travelling musician who doesn't use magic. Such a character would be better-served by a Rogue who specializes in social skills. Just like the Barbarian class can't cover an actual barbarian (that is, someone living outside what's considered "civilization") unless they're also a raging berserker.

IKR? When's the last time you saw a Cleric file something? Yes, I know.

[Max_Killjoy]

I think so. What I mean is, lots of historical armies have employed musicians in combat, sometimes just as a means of communication, but often to boost friendly morale and break enemy morale. Youtube up some bagpipe music, bodran drumming just from my mostly-Irish background. Various other cultures have had similar setups.

I don't think it's that difficult to comprehend if you've ever been to a concert and gotten caught up in the emotion of it. Or even a game with thousands of other people cheering and chanting along.

I think it's entirely reasonable that, in a magical universe where mind over matter is an axiom, that music has crunch effects.

(Now, using this explanation would lead to a very different bard class than the ones in most of the books--something a lot more like the Marshal and a lot less useful for dungeoncrashing and dragonslaing--and with only a handful of options--Song of Fear, Song of Bravery, Song of Charming, Song of Sleep, Song of Healing, Song of Irresistible Dancing. But that's a different topic.)

It makes more sense for an army unit to have a few musicians, and maybe even have some general effects on morale, etc.

My comment was more regarding the notion of such a thing in a group of 3-6 adventurers, and one of them deciding that they GOTTA SING! when combat starts, instead of picking up their damn sword and getting to it.

[JAL_1138]

It makes more sense for an army unit to have a few musicians, and maybe even have some general effects on morale, etc.

My comment was more regarding the notion of such a thing in a group of 3-6 adventurers, and one of them deciding that they GOTTA SING! when combat starts, instead of picking up their damn sword and getting to it.

Is it that much sillier than the wizard hauling out his books and flipping through the pages until he finds the right text to read aloud and weird hand gestures to make, instead of "picking up his damn sword and getting to it"...?

[Max_Killjoy]

Is it that much sillier than the wizard hauling out his books and flipping through the pages until he finds the right text to read aloud and weird hand gestures to make, instead of "picking up his damn sword and getting to it"...?

The wizard, if run and depicted with that aesthetic, has the potential to be just as silly.

"This rain is terrible... can someone hold their cloak over me while I find the right page for Fireball and and cast against those ogres?"

[JAL_1138]

The wizard, if run and depicted with that aesthetic, has the potential to be just as silly.

"This rain is terrible... can someone hold their cloak over me while I find the right page for Fireball and and cast against those ogres?"

Perhaps you're thinking of the bard with the silliest aesthetic, then.

Picture a Maori warrior doing a haka dance/chant, with eldritch glowing energy building up on his hands as he does, then releasing it with a final shout that unleashes a Shatter on his enemies--or on some obstacle in his path, smashing a stone door to gravel with the force of his shout.

[Max_Killjoy]

Perhaps you're thinking of the bard with the silliest aesthetic, then.

Picture a Maori warrior doing a haka dance/chant, with eldritch glowing energy building up on his hands as he does, then releasing it with a final shout that unleashes a Shatter on his enemies--or on some obstacle in his path, smashing a stone door to gravel with the force of his shout.

Why aren't his enemies firing missile weapons at him while he's doing this? Or at least finding cover?

[GungHo]

Why aren't his enemies firing missile weapons at him while he's doing this? Or at least finding cover?

Why don't they just shoot at the Sisqo-themed bard singing the Thong Song? Or the wizard speaking in tongues and drawing lines in the air?

[Max_Killjoy]

Why don't they just shoot at the Sisqo-themed bard singing the Thong Song? Or the wizard speaking in tongues and drawing lines in the air?

I don't know. They probably should be.

[oudeis]

Maori haka are awesome, and I plan to use the audio from one of the All Blacks' performances as background in a tabletop encounter; however, from what I understand they were done before battle. As Max said, when the combat starts, you grab a weapon and start smiting. Martial music, songs, poetry, and chants all have basis in history but the idea of some troubadour stepping center stage for his spotlight solo is just silly.

In the excellent Sharpe's Battle there's an almost poetic passage where Sergeant Patrick Harper and two other Irish soldiers go into battle-frenzy and start smashing their way through the French ranks while chanting the Táin Bó Cúailnge in Gaelic. I don't know how realistic that is but it's a lot easier for me to accept, both mechanically and conceptually.

Damn, did Bernard Cornwell make that scene sing (no pun intended).

[daniel_ream]

I don't know. They probably should be.

And are, in any version of D&D I'm familiar with. "Protect the glass cannons" is standard dungeon party formation.

the idea of some troubadour stepping center stage for his spotlight solo is just silly.

Nonsense.

[Tiktakkat]

Not to argue, but to clarify -- were these combat effects?

Some were.
But then, not all of a bards abilities are fully combat related.

And couldn't the social effects of bardic praise and ridicule be just that -- social, rather than magic?

The satire caused Bres' face to break out in boils.
That's . . . pretty magical.
So while they caused a direct social effect, they made him disfigured and thus ineligible to be king, it clearly required "magic" to initiate.

Which is essentially the defining feature of most of the magic in such legends, even that of outright "wizards".
Very rarely are the spellchuckers running around hurling fireballs left and right.
Instead they are invoking curses, setting up "dooms", putting people to sleep (other than on a battlefield), and other such things, and not waving their hands and blowing things up, or forcing people to kneel in front of armies by dominating them then and there, or anything of that sort.
(As others have noted if wizards were more "realistic".)

[Bicorn]

In real life magic both occult and divine has aways been associeted with music and art.

Think of one faith that don't use msuic in their rituals, YOU CAN'T! From the latin choirs to the tribal drums all forms of faith use music.

Music has aways been linked with magic that is why it such an easier way to represent magic in a game, much easier than say "oratory".

It's also easier to do in a fighting scenario than using dance for exemple.

[CharonsHelper]

In real life magic both occult and divine has aways been associeted with music and art.

Think of one faith that don't use msuic in their rituals, YOU CAN'T!

If you include historical denominations - the early Quakers didn't allow music in church as a part of distancing themselves from The Church of England.

[daniel_ream]

Think of one faith that don't use msuic in their rituals, YOU CAN'T!

It'll get the thread closed if I list them, but I can think of at least three non-trivial sects/religions that ban music, either in general or as part of worship.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

The satire caused Bres' face to break out in boils.
That's . . . pretty magical.
So while they caused a direct social effect, they made him disfigured and thus ineligible to be king, it clearly required "magic" to initiate.

While some effects are obviously only magical, other bardic abilities could be completely mundane in nature, or mundane with some mystical mixed in - for example, the fascinate ability is effectively used by Eddie Valiant when he performs his song and dance routine in Who Framed Roger Rabbit? to defeat the weasels, and the Lancre Morris men perform the Stick and Bucket dance in Lords and Ladies to render the Elves incapable of fighting back - in both cases, there's certainly some mundane ability, with some magic (cartoon logic and the Discworld's natural background thaumic field) involved as well.

In real life magic both occult and divine has aways been associeted with music and art.

Think of one faith that don't use msuic in their rituals, YOU CAN'T! From the latin choirs to the tribal drums all forms of faith use music.

Music has aways been linked with magic that is why it such an easier way to represent magic in a game, much easier than say "oratory".

It's also easier to do in a fighting scenario than using dance for exemple.

Given arcane magic has a lot of spells with somatic components to manipulate and redirect the flows of energy, is it that much of a stretch to say Bardic magic has something similar, which could also be turned into a fighting style like Capoeira, or Water Fighting from Game of Thrones (as well as the regular standbys like Hollywood-style swashbuckling, Wire-Fu et al)? In fact, it's probably only the next step on from stage magicians using gestures and movement to do things like diverting their audience's attention from what they're doing with their other hand.

[johnbragg]

in both cases, there's certainly some mundane ability, with some magic (cartoon logic and the Discworld's natural background thaumic field) involved as well.

See that's something that always bugs me in mundanes vs casters arguments. We're talking about D&D worlds, which ALL have "natural background thaumic fields" or some equivalent. Somehow people have the idea that a person pointing his finger and shooting eldritch energy at a bunch of orcs is a reasonable thing to do in a fight, but somehow taking out a fiddle and playing "DEvil Went Down to Georgia" can't possibly inspire your allies (crunch +1 to attack and damage rolls), or playing Black Sabbath couldn't possibly intimidate your enemies (crunch cause fear spell). (And as your Perform check gets close to the 30s, yes you get the electronic studio effects because you're just that awesome.)

This also ties into Xykon's power-is-power speech from when Dark V shows up. ECL is a reflection of the thaumic field of the D&D-verse being distorted by your awesomeness, shoving physics out of the way.

PArt of it is that, in 3.5, Bardic inspiration is one of the few magical buffs that is (mostly) concentration-based rather than fire-and-forget. By my logic, the bard should be a lot more of a caster and a lot less of a melee guy, closer to the late 3.5 fixed-list casters than the sorta-gestalt rogue/gish that he or she is.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

Probably because there's few if any Gandalf, Merlin or Harry Potter hero equivalents in media for a Bard - more usually they're the comedy sidekick of the hero, or a roaming lothario swashbuckler-rogue type who also happens to be able to play an instrument, and even then, it's likely their instrument that's enchanted to give any magical effects, rather than their own magical abilities channelling through an unenchanted instrument.

But I'd personally say a bards abilities are more in the performer reacting to their audience - basically, some rehearsal and a lot of improvisation.

As for types of music and their effects, what about a little Rammstein for Pyrotechnics?

[JAL_1138]

While some effects are obviously only magical, other bardic abilities could be completely mundane in nature, or mundane with some mystical mixed in - for example, the fascinate ability is effectively used by Eddie Valiant when he performs his song and dance routine in Who Framed Roger Rabbit? to defeat the weasels, and the Lancre Morris men perform the Stick and Bucket dance in Lords and Ladies to render the Elves incapable of fighting back - in both cases, there's certainly some mundane ability, with some magic (cartoon logic and the Discworld's natural background thaumic field) involved as well.


Given arcane magic has a lot of spells with somatic components to manipulate and redirect the flows of energy, is it that much of a stretch to say Bardic magic has something similar, which could also be turned into a fighting style like Capoeira, or Water Fighting from Game of Thrones (as well as the regular standbys like Hollywood-style swashbuckling, Wire-Fu et al)? In fact, it's probably only the next step on from stage magicians using gestures and movement to do things like diverting their audience's attention from what they're doing with their other hand.

The implication with the Lancre Morris Men is that they "render the elves incapable of fighting back" by bludgeoning their brains out with the sticks they use in their Morris dance, which is a bit closer to a martial art the way it's performed on the Disk.

[Bohandas]

Probably because there's few if any Gandalf, Merlin or Harry Potter hero equivalents in media for a Bard - more usually they're the comedy sidekick of the hero, or a roaming lothario swashbuckler-rogue type who also happens to be able to play an instrument, and even then, it's likely their instrument that's enchanted to give any magical effects, rather than their own magical abilities channelling through an unenchanted instrument.

Or occasionally their guitar pick (Tenacious D and the Pick of Destiny)

Or the score itself, unrelated to who's playing it (Read or Die, Tenacious D: Tribute, the Worldwide Recorder Concert episode of Southpark, and cthulhu mythos works relating to Hastur), which honestly makes the most sense out of all of these.

[Tiktakkat]

While some effects are obviously only magical, other bardic abilities could be completely mundane in nature, or mundane with some mystical mixed in - for example, the fascinate ability is effectively used by Eddie Valiant when he performs his song and dance routine in Who Framed Roger Rabbit? to defeat the weasels, and the Lancre Morris men perform the Stick and Bucket dance in Lords and Ladies to render the Elves incapable of fighting back - in both cases, there's certainly some mundane ability, with some magic (cartoon logic and the Discworld's natural background thaumic field) involved as well.

The Eddie Valiant and the weasels thing is heavily mystical (the vulnerability of toons to certain things), combined with a hidden, somewhat mystical, ability of Eddie (he really did have a Sense of Humor).
And yes, the effects of the milieu are important too - which is why no one in the "real world" can invoke satires that make people's face break out in boils.
(Although my friend did try the "shave and a haircut" thing on me to "prove" I was toon. Unfortunately it backfired on him when I resisted and he was compelled to add the knocks for "two bits". I still wonder about him . . .)

[Bohandas]

See that's something that always bugs me in mundanes vs casters arguments. We're talking about D&D worlds, which ALL have "natural background thaumic fields" or some equivalent. Somehow people have the idea that a person pointing his finger and shooting eldritch energy at a bunch of orcs is a reasonable thing to do in a fight, but somehow taking out a fiddle and playing "DEvil Went Down to Georgia" can't possibly inspire your allies (crunch +1 to attack and damage rolls), or playing Black Sabbath couldn't possibly intimidate your enemies (crunch cause fear spell). (And as your Perform check gets close to the 30s, yes you get the electronic studio effects because you're just that awesome.)

The problem with the way D&D does it is that most songs are way too long. How many songs do you know that can be played in six seconds. Even for jingles that's pushing it.