Retiering the Classes: Home Base

[Troacctid]

I've been inserting the rows right into the sheet alphabetically as they join the thread. No idea why things keep getting wonky. Could be a consequence of what I did to fix the last error. I'ma check it out. Got any theories?

*shrug*

Tried a few times. Still have no idea how to do it efficiently in sheets. Transpose is super weird for some reason. Moving or altering the transposed information in any way screws with stuff. I could do it manually, but I think that'd make it harder to add yet more rows.

You need to use absolute cell references, I think.

1. Go down a column and change the number reference to absolute, e.g. B3 to B$3 or B74 to B$74.
2. Do this for each cell in the column.
3. Autofill the column to the other columns (the data should hopefully not change as a result).
4. Now the transpose should probably work?

[eggynack]

*shrug*

First attempts to figure it met with failure. It'll work out, eventually.

You need to use absolute cell references, I think.

1. Go down a column and change the number reference to absolute, e.g. B3 to B$3 or B74 to B$74.
2. Do this for each cell in the column.
3. Autofill the column to the other columns (the data should hopefully not change as a result).
4. Now the transpose should probably work?

I'll try it, presumably after figuring out the other thing.

[RedWarlock]

So, just curious, but is there any accounting for post-publish fixes? Specifically thinking of two cases here, the Shadowcaster fix by Mouseferatu (Ari Marmell, who wrote the Shadowcaster originally) and the Hexblade fix by Mike Mearls (who presumably worked on the Hexblade).

I realize they may seem little better than homebrew, and the impact on general play may be low due to obscurity, but I wouldn't even touch the book-version of these classes without using those fixes, they're like actually-useful errata.

[eggynack]

Starting to get a handle on the problem. Maybe. It's all rather insane. The first wrong votes seem to belong to Soranar, but that literally only applies to the sorcerer thread votes, because those votes are currently in Zaq's hands. Stealth Marmot is the next person whose vote is wrong. Their votes should belong to StreamOfTheSky. Their votes, in turn, seem like they should belong to telok. And that goes on until Zaq, it looks like, whose votes are currently in the hands of Zanos, I guess. Most of that is right, maybe? Except I have no idea where the_archduke's votes are, if anywhere, on this spreadsheet. Next step should be looking around for those, I guess. I have literally no idea why any of this is happening. It's an absolute mess.

[Troacctid]

So, just curious, but is there any accounting for post-publish fixes? Specifically thinking of two cases here, the Shadowcaster fix by Mouseferatu (Ari Marmell, who wrote the Shadowcaster originally) and the Hexblade fix by Mike Mearls (who presumably worked on the Hexblade).

I realize they may seem little better than homebrew, and the impact on general play may be low due to obscurity, but I wouldn't even touch the book-version of these classes without using those fixes, they're like actually-useful errata.

Those are not considered.

[eggynack]

Okay, made an attempt. For the record, I stuck a new row above Stealth Marmot, I think, called Zeq, and had it sort sticking that row at the right below Zaq, shunting everything but Zombulian down down. That left that orphaned data that was originally in Zaq's hands belonging to Zeq, which I copied to Soranar, because that looks like where that inexplicably belongs. And, finally, I manually inserted the_archduke's bard and factotum vote, because I have literally no idea where those went. I don't know if this was all due to a single attempt to sort manually way back when, or a bug of some kind, but the upshot is that most things look fine, better than they did before, but I very likely got there the wrong way, because I had no idea what to do otherwise, so there's probably a mistake somewhere. Folks should check and such. Not the most recent thread though. Well, not lack of data on the most recent thread. I haven't been updating consistently, because this was the worst thing, and an all consuming vortex taking up any spreadsheet energy I have, but there are some votes there, and they might well be wrong. I'ma make a copy of the spreadsheet now. Test that bug theory (cause, y'know, they won't necessarily both go screwy if one does).

Edit: Oh, and if it wasn't clear, Troacctid is accurate on that. Beyond the simple fact that third party analysis would be an endless wasteland of tiering, I honestly just don't see the point in analyzing a "fixed" class, as it were. The purpose of the tier system, or at least an underlying guiding principle, is figuring out what needs to be "fixed". Or, to put it a better way, the tier system doesn't just look at the game warts and all. Its nature is partially predicated on the presence of those warts.

[Rhyltran]

I've been inserting the rows right into the sheet alphabetically as they join the thread. No idea why things keep getting wonky. Could be a consequence of what I did to fix the last error. I'ma check it out. Got any theories?

Tried a few times. Still have no idea how to do it efficiently in sheets. Transpose is super weird for some reason. Moving or altering the transposed information in any way screws with stuff. I could do it manually, but I think that'd make it harder to add yet more rows.

Perhaps, but I'm beginning to learn that anything that can be prescriptive will be taken that way. Only thing I think might work, which is what I'm angling for, is constructing definitions that are really hard to use prescriptively, whether they were intended for that purpose or not.

Edit: Looks like TIPOT's votes are your votes. I suspect this is a thing that started at archduke again, which would, somehow, change votes specifically below that line.

Double-edit: Why are the_archduke's votes like that? He clearly has a bard vote of some kind when I look at his posting record. But neither he nor the people above and below him have those votes. Where did they go? What is happening? Has sense and reason abandoned me in my time of greatest need? I don't understand. It looks like telok's votes are correct, so the problems seem to derive from that area. But, if I were to stick an arbitrary line in there, Zombulian would be orphaned from any and all votes. That also obviously wouldn't work. Things need to move up, not down. But then, if I delete the line entirely, the votes themselves would be orphaned. From whence did they come? I dunno. I'd be inclined to check whether everything else works if transposed, and then figure those lines out manually, but post history is weirdly missing after a certain point, so it'd be mad tricky. This is insanity, is the basic principle at work here.

My suggestion is to keep a sheet with just a list of who voted for what. No sliding people in just keep it like that. When the whole thing is over then do a spread sheet.

[eggynack]

My suggestion is to keep a sheet with just a list of who voted for what. No sliding people in just keep it like that. When the whole thing is over then do a spread sheet.

But, aside from these weird things that may or may not be bugs, what you're describing is basically a spreadsheet. If this didn't keep weirdly doing stuff in ways I don't understand, it'd be way more efficient than some arbitrary doc. Hopefully, what I have now is accurate and will stay that way. I honestly have no idea why it wouldn't.

[Rhyltran]

But, aside from these weird things that may or may not be bugs, what you're describing is basically a spreadsheet. If this didn't keep weirdly doing stuff in ways I don't understand, it'd be way more efficient than some arbitrary doc. Hopefully, what I have now is accurate and will stay that way. I honestly have no idea why it wouldn't.

Beats me. I'm bad at understanding why computers do things the way they do. Lol

[eggynack]

Just finished the new thread. It's over here.

[eggynack]

Yet more new thread.

[Euclidodese]

I thought it would be nice to have the classes laid out in the new tiers, as a quick way of seeing what each tier currently 'represents.'

Spoiler: Tier One

Show

Tier One:

Archivist

Artificer

Cleric

Druid

Sha'ir

Shaman

Spontaneous Druid

Wizard

Wu Jen

Spoiler: Tier Two

Show

Tier Two:

Beguiler

Death Master

Dread necromancer

Evangelist

Favored Soul

Mystic

Sorcerer

Spirit Shaman

Spontaneous Cleric

Urban Druid

Spoiler: Tier Three

Show

Tier Three:

Bard

Binder

Crusader

Dragonfire Adept

Duskblade

Factotum

Healer

Jester

Shugenja

Warblade

Warlock

Warmage

Wild Shape Ranger

Swordsage

Spoiler: Tier Four

Show

Tier Four:

Adept

Barbarian

Fighter

Ninja

Paladin

Ranger

Rogue

Savant

Scout

Shadowcaster

Spellthief

Spoiler: Tier Five

Show

Tier Five:

Battle Dancer

Expert

Hexblade

Magewright

Monk

Mountebank

CW Samurai

OA Samurai

Sohei

Soulknife

Truenamer

Spoiler: Tier Six

Show

Tier Six:

Aristocrat

Commoner

Warrior

[Bucky]

Threads we still need to do:
Incarnum (Incarnate, Totemist, Soulborn etc.)
Psionics (Psion, Wilder, PsyWar, PsyRog, Ardent, Divine Mind) -> we may need to split this into casters and hybrids
Aura classes (Marshall, Dragon Shaman Etc.)
UA build-a-classes (Expert, Warrior, Spellcaster)

[Gemini476]

Threads we still need to do:
Incarnum (Incarnate, Totemist, Soulborn etc.)
Psionics (Psion, Wilder, PsyWar, PsyRog, Ardent, Divine Mind) -> we may need to split this into casters and hybrids
Aura classes (Marshall, Dragon Shaman Etc.)
UA build-a-classes (Expert, Warrior, Spellcaster)

Shuffling the Divine Mind off to join the Aura classes would help even out the two groups, I think. Also, you're forgetting the Lurk in the Psionics list because there's probably way too many Psionic classes to just stuff them into one thread. Case in point, I just noticed that you also forgot the Erudite.

Are there even any classes that have Auras beyond the Marshall, Dragon Shaman, and Divine Mind?


Oh, and IIRC there's some ACF classes that still need to be done? I remember some talk about Spellthief ACFs and Wild Monks. And then there's the whole hullabaloo about Healers with Sanctified spells and Factotums with Font of Inspiration, but I don't remember if there was enough outcry for those to actually be tiered separately.
There's probably also some more obscure possibly tier-changing ACFs and variants out there as well.

[eggynack]

Yeah, there's a bunch of other stuff to look at. We still have a bunch of mundanes, for example. Healer and factotum both got into the maximum realistic tier though, so there's not much need to look at a split off version that's strictly better.

[Bucky]

Are there even any classes that have Auras beyond the Marshall, Dragon Shaman, and Divine Mind?

Paladin, but we covered them already. Maybe we should add Antipaladin.

[Gemini476]

Paladin, but we covered them already. Maybe we should add Antipaladin.

I don't know that any of the, what, 11(?) variant alignment Paladins are +1 Tier.

Some of them are probably down a tier or two since they lose a bunch of ACFs and have a worse spell list. I'm not sure that it'd be worth tiering them, to be honest, especially given how obscure the eight Dragon Magazine variants are.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Paladin, but we covered them already. Maybe we should add Antipaladin.

The Antipaladin is Pathfinder-only. 3.5 has a few alignment variants, but they're... well, Paladin of Freedom doesn't do much; the other two replace your spell list without letting you access all the lovely unique splatbook spells, which is a not-insignificant hit, but we haven't really been paying attention to ACFs that are bad enough to drop your tier, so...

[danielxcutter]

The Antipaladin is Pathfinder-only. 3.5 has a few alignment variants, but they're... well, Paladin of Freedom doesn't do much; the other two replace your spell list without letting you access all the lovely unique splatbook spells, which is a not-insignificant hit, but we haven't really been paying attention to ACFs that are bad enough to drop your tier, so...

I think there were alignment ACFs in Dragon Magazine, too. Spoiler warning: they suck.

[eggynack]

New thread is hereabouts. Decided arbitrarily to go with aura folk.

[Luccan]

Is the retiering still going? It seems to have quit after the forums went down for a couple days.

[eggynack]

Is the retiering still going? It seems to have quit after the forums went down for a couple days.

I guess I'll start up a new one. I've been putting this stuff off for some reason.

[Bucky]

Are we doing Incarnum next?

[eggynack]

Are we doing Incarnum next?

That we are. Lotsa infrastructure not totally done yet, but the thread is in existence, and the spreadsheet itself is updated with the last thread's stuff at least.

[remetagross]

Yay I'm glad to see the thread back :D

[eggynack]

Yay I'm glad to see the thread back :D

Yeah, was getting kinda tired of tiering, and the big thread blackout killed some of my momentum, but the gap means it might get kinda fun again. I might actually ditch some of the links I have on every post. It's been more and more of a hassle to add those with every thread. Could make sense to delete all of those except for the link list on the home page and a home page link on each child thread, and then maybe put those back in at the end when I only have to make the alterations once a thread.

[ElFi]

(By mod permission)

Has anyone considered starting such a project like this for the Pathfinder tier system? Reading these threads is definitely very interesting and enlightening, but I don't play 3.5e much, so I can't really contribute or truly understand what's going on.

I might try and start one myself, if nobody else is interested.

[heavyfuel]

Don't really know what you mean with "by mod permission", but ok.

My personal experience with PF is very limited, but resources for players and DMs to try and more wholly understand the game they play are always good.

If you wish to start such a project I'm sure the community would appreciate. Godspeed.

[ElFi]

Don't really know what you mean with "by mod permission", but ok.

My personal experience with PF is very limited, but resources for players and DMs to try and more wholly understand the game they play are always good.

If you wish to start such a project I'm sure the community would appreciate. Godspeed.

Haha, I just meant that I got mod permission to post on the thread, so nobody has to worry about necromancy.

Pathfinder tiers have always been more nebulously defined from 3.5e's, not to mention the many variations in power ceilings/floors may well warrant the shifting of tiers for some classes (Rogue in particular is one I've seen floated around). And it'd be nice to have official rankings for the classes further away from core, which never did get much love back when the tiers were being formed (or may have not even existed).

I'll see what I can do about posting something in this regard soon.

[heavyfuel]

Oh, I didn't even notice this wasn't my thread. Why didn't you post on the current home base? This way we don't have two similar threads floating around, and only the more recent one

I'd suggest you post there if you need anything else