Let's Read The Monster Manual II: Fantastic Beasts and Where to Fight Them

[Unoriginal]

D&D invented the Lich. Koschei might have been an inspiration, and there is a few other wizards who cheated death thanks to various means in legends or fantasy stories (like in Howard's "Hour of the Dragon", where Conan's opponent has his pseudo-life tied to the artifact used to ressurect him), but the concept of "create a philactery your soul can hide in if you are destroyed" was invented by D&D.

It's true they didn't invent the word, true. One or two authors had used "lich" to refer to an undead being before, I think, since like ShikomeKidoMi said it means "corpse".

[ShikomeKidoMi]

the concept of "create a philactery your soul can hide in if you are destroyed" was invented by D&D.

I don't know, that part's pretty close to Koschei, it's just that he was still basically alive, not undead-- a living wizard with his soul in an object, not a decayed corpse powered by magic.

[hamishspence]

"Separate item that must be destroyed if the being is to be killed permanently" fits the One Ring, and Sauron, very well.

I don't know, that part's pretty close to Koschei, it's just that he was still basically alive, not undead-- a living wizard with his soul in an object, not a decayed corpse powered by magic.

And some versions emphasise that he is inhumanly thin - almost skeletal.

[DerKommissar]

Next up is one of the classic D&D Villains: The Lich. It has no roots in common mythology* and could be considered an original D&D creature. It fits in almost every campaign as an individualized, unique villain.

*As Spamotron pointed out: Koschei the Deathless might be an inspiration. Extra Points to Koschei for the method of hiding his phylactery: A needle inside an egg, inside a duck, inside a rabbit, locked in a crystal chest and buried under an oak on an island – talk about paranoid ;)

Intro
Liches are an archetype of the big bad evil guy: An already powerful wizard making a faustian pact for moarpowar, leaving behind anything human in the process. They are very intelligent and resourceful, but they still lust for more might and see every other being either as means or as hindrance to that goal. The heroes of your campaign could be both. So let’s have a closer look.

Art
The art is quite okay and fits the description of the Lich. I like that he is striking an aggressive pose as if casting an evil spell or cursing someone. The approach of a Lich with withered skin rather than fully skeletal is well done. It somehow reminds me of the classic Nosferatu. I think that the depicted Lich is meant to be Szass Tam, hence the red robes which look almost like a ribcage. The only odd thing about the picture is the long fingers.
[On a small side-rant: Why does it always have to be a male Human Lich. Why not a female Halfling Lich for once?]

Fluff
Liches are great wizards, searching to become immortal. Their only desire is power, everything else is not important. In order to become a Lich you need to find a higher being as a patron to which in turn you have to be a kind of serf. For the ritual you need a phylactery (a vessel with silver linings inside to keep the soul in the mortal realm) and drink a potion of transformation (mixed of poison and the blood of a sentient being you sacrificed). At the end of the ritual the Wizard dies as the soul is transferred to the phylactery and becomes a Lich.
The Lich has to feed souls to the phylactery otherwise the Lich might decay and turn into a Demi Lich*. If the Lich is destroyed it forms a new (?) body within days next to the phylactery. The only way to kill it permanently is to destroy the phylactery by special, individual means. A Lich likes to reside in its lair and tends to not leave it. Those lairs are very dangerous, full of magic items and undead/construct/demonic minions. In its lair the Lich is the most dangerous.

In the fluff text many things are left undefined and I think this is really a theme to the Lich: It is not a representative of a type of creature, but rather always a unique individual. Its life before, its ritual, its lair, the means to destroy it etc. should be customized.There is no “standard” Lich.

*So a Demi Lich is just a messy Lich? Instead of the pinnacle of Lichdom? That doesn’t really match the description of the Demi Lich in the same book…

Purpose and Tactics:
The Lich has a long, complicated creature entry. Interestingly enough a Lich should have a CR of 16.5 according to the building rules. I interpret this huge difference of 4.5 in that way, that the authors actually wanted to “save some space” for customization, magic items, minions, etc. etc.
[Edit: As Waar pointed out correctly the CR calculation was off, so it should be around 18 actually]

But for now the vanilla Lich:

The traits of being a Lich (all Liches have those)
In raw numbers the Lich is not very impressive, but it has True Sight, good passive perception, two good saves, multiple resistances/immunities (why not immunity to necrotic?), genius-level intellect and can’t be killed directly. Still, its defensive CR is pitiful with low HP and low AC. In direct melee it goes down really fast against a mid-/high-level party.The paralyzing touch is a mighty melee attack and should not be underestimated (remember: further attacks against a paralyzed opponent are auto-critical hits). The option to shoot 3 rays of frost out-damages disrupt life in most situations. Frightening Gaze is a good “either it works or it doesn’t do anything” ability.

The spellcasting abilities (here Liches might differ)
Oddly enough the Lich is a rather pathetic high level caster, as it has less spells prepared than a 18th level wizard, no spellmastery and no arcane tradition. That doesn’t make any sense at all. The spellselection itself is okay, but not overwhelming. Mirror Image should be a default first defensive action. Ray of Frost comes with a nice debuff and can be used as a legendary action and outperforms the lower level damaging spells. Fireball is often better than the higher level blight. Dimension Door is good for a quick escape, so save one slot for that. Scrying is out of combat and should not be on the list IMO. Disintegrate is the big gun and can be used up to 4 times using higher slots. Power word stun can be a nice Debuff and Planeshift a formidable save or die (though: touch range).

Disclaimer: The following paragraph is just my thoughts on the Liches spellcasting and does not reflect the Monster Manual. But just consider that - as it is now - a level 18 Wizard would actually loose spellcasting ability by turning into a Lich.

Spoiler: Alternate Spellcasting

Show

The fluff says it keeps its former spellcasting abilities and it has the spell imprisonment in its fluff, but not on the spell list, so it makes perfect sense to assume that the MM has a “standard Lich array”. As a former Wizard aLich can change its prepared spells and further I’d assume it to know every wizard spell in existence, just because it’s a FREAKIN LICH.

Some suggestions for Spells
Cantrips: Blade Ward (used as a legendary action every round => Resistance to magical weapons)
1st: longstrider (no concentration!);
3rd: Fly
4th: Banishment (nasty), Greater Invisibility
5th: Wall of Force (divide & conquer)
6th: A contingent Spell
7th: Simulacrum (according to sageadvise the simulacrum could take lair actions)
9th: Foresight (very nice) Time Stop (good first action); Gate, Wish,… go crazy

In addition I’d consider one or more of the following changes:

=> AddWizard traits: tradition (necromantic fits); spell mastery (shield and invisibility are strong candidates).*

=> Add More Spellslots

=> Intelligence greater than 20 even the Kraken has 22 (and is therefore the 2nd most intelligent creature after the Solar btw.)

I think none of this should significantly increase the CR.

*[I think it’s a bit of a shame they forgot about that, as e.g. the Archmage seems to be a lvl 18 Wizard with the Spell Resistance Feature of the Abjuration Tradition, and their Fluff explicitly states Lichdom as a goal for evil Archmages.]

Lair Actions
A Lich in its lair should be treated +1 CR according to the MM. It can gain a random spell slot every other round of level 8 or lower. I think this means that out of combat a Lich in its lair has infinite level 8 or lower spells slots. The second option is to only take half damage AND transfer the other half to a target. The third is quite a massive amount of AoE damage. All three actions seem pretty good depending on the situation: I would default to alternate the damage blast with the spell regain and use the protective option only when they PCs close in.

In general a Lich is not a good Solo Monster stat- and fluffwise. They are genius-level masterminds with tons of minions (undead, constructs, demons, hirelings, …) and it should be a rare occasion to meet one face-to-face. Also they have access to the rarest magic items (just be aware, that the PCs will loot them off the corpse, so a bit of care is advised). A Liches knowledge is vast, they scheme and don‘t care about time or other resources necessary to reach their goals.The Lich should always be played a nasty as possible by the DM, as it has high intellect and resources t and absolutely no morality or sense of fairness. Let the lich surrender to the party fighter only to touch him for a plane shift to the negative energy plane. Power Word kill the Wizard. If it comes to the point where the heroes have a direct confrontation with a Lich, it will fight to kill.

Spoiler: Bonus-Round: Detailed Lich Tactics from Flamestrike on ENWorld

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In a thread on ENWorld the user Flamestrike posted a „Minor Lich“ which is a CR 10 Creature and can only cast up to lvl 6 Spells. He had an ample tactics discussion which might be interesting to read. Please do note that a “Full” Lich could cast higher spells etc. and that AFAIK there are some minor rules mistakes in there. But he plays the Lich in a nasty way, so see this as an inspiration. Credits and Thanks to Flamestrike!

Taken from ENWorld (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthr...Their-CR/page3), formatted and edited for typos.
“Equipment: Bracers of defense, 4 potions of greater healing
__________________________________________________ __
Tactics: The Lich has several alarm spells rigged in its dungeon lair, plus a rat familiar (whom the Lich observes the party through its senses, paying particular notice of any clerics, paladins and mages) and undead minions observing the one entrance to the chamber where it is located, making surprise all but impossible. It is unlikely the PCs distinguish the rat from any others they have seen in the dungeon.

Once alerted to the PCs it casts mirror image a round or two prior to combat starting. On its first action it splits the party with Wall of force. It seeks to isolate the party spell caster (recognizing them as a threat) from the rest of the party (specifically clerics and paladins). Its first legendary action it uses blade ward (granting it resistance to all S/B/P damage till the end of its next turn). It then uses Frightening gaze on the leading creature trapped in the wall of force.

On its second turn it uses misty step (or dimension door) to teleport behind the party and in a position where it can target the now isolated spellcaster. It uses paralyzing touch (being unable to cast another spell on its turn due to casting misty step as a bonus action) as its action, (repeating it if necessary as its first legendary action) and then spams repeated firebolt or ray of frost cantrips as its remaining legendary actions (trying to provoke an unparalyzed target into using shield, thus preventing the target from using counterspell when the Liches turn next comes around). It uses counter spell itself to counter any dangerous spell directed at it from its target.

Remember if the target is paralyzed, the Liches attacks are automatically critical hits (6d10 damage) as its within 5' of the target.

On turn 3, the Lich hits the target with a disintegrate spell (DC 16 Dex save negates) if the target is not paralayzed. If the target attempts to counterspell this, the Lich counters this counterspell. If the target is paralyzed, the Lich simply continues to destroy the target with more paralyzing touches, rays of frost or firebolts (remember, these are critical hits if they land) saving its more dangerous spells for other PCs (preferring to save its 6th level slot for a third wall of force). It is wary of using disintegrate unless desperate as its main goal is to loot the PCs of their magic items.

Once the target is at 0HP the Lich continues to hit the target with ranged attacks until it fails 3 death saves. As it does so it taunts the other PCs who are stranded on the rear of the wall of force who forced to watch helplessly as this happens. It then loots the dead PC corpse (make sure you laugh evilly as you do so).

On its next turn it retreats 100' away into the darkness (it is unlikely that any PCs can see it 100' away, but the Lich has true sight 120') drinks its potions of healing if necessary, casts blade ward as a legendary action and then casts wall of force again (breaking its concentration on the first wall), isolating a second PC, and repeats this process.

(It backs off into the darkness, heals and protects itself with blade ward as it realizes PCs with readied actions who can see the Lich might anticipate this move and attack the Lich during the brief instant the first wall drops and the second one appears).

The Lich is also fond of repeatedly using its frightening gaze through the wall at helpless PCs trapped inside it.

If sorely pressed (the Lich only attacks as it wants the PCs gear, if they seriously challenge it, it leaves at once) it uses dimension door to teleport to a special isolated 'panic room' it had constructed underground 300' away (isolated by over 200' of solid rock, it was dug out of the dungeon with the aid of ethereal creatures, who the Lich then destroyed). It is in this room that it stores its loot, its spellbook and its phylactery. The room contains several potions of greater healing and three scrolls of dimension door. It is located 400' away (through solid rock again) from an underground river that leads to the surface (allowing the Lich to dimension door out of this room and to the river - seeing as it doesn’t need to breathe, the Lich then uses the river to escape to the outside by walking along the bottom of it).

The panic room is protected by an alarm spell that is triggered if a non-undead creature enters it (a difficult proposition at best). It is also lined with lead, warding it against divination magic.

After fleeing the dungeon, it hires competent spies (and its familiar) to steal bits of hair or minor personal effects from the PCs (for use with scrying) and keeps tabs on the PCs. It then (via several lackies and stooges) arranges for the PCs to be hired for a supposedly easy task (engineered by the Lich) that leads them into a dungeon (designed by the Lich) full of death traps and super deadly encounters (the Lich is not present in the dungeon). Several assassins wait outside the dungeon to kill the weary PCs on their exit.

If the Lich forms the view that a PC might be willing to betray the others, it sends agents to strike a deal with that PC for him to kill the others in exchange for a legendary magic item of the PCs choice (plus his pick of his companions gear) and a pardon from the Lich.”

Hooks: The Lich is a perfect example where you can avoid PC vs. NPC and build it up as NPC vs. NPC: While the lvl 20 Heroes Party might be perfectly able to deal with a Lich, they are the mighty 0.00001% of the population. Leaving 99.9999…% of your worlds’ population being weaker than the Lich, even combined. So maybe in your world your high-levels don’t have much to fear from a Lich – but the world does. It can put quite some pressure on the Player characters if it’s not their lives at stakes but the lives of 10.000 peasants.

The Phylactery of a certain Lich cannot be destroyed by normal magic or brute force, but only by three odd things: The first sunlight of spring, the cry of a newborn and the feather of a Phoenix. Can the heroes obtain those curious items?

After 870 years of study an eons old Lich reappears in the Kingdom of Yourcampaign. His vast magical knowledge enables him to cast long lost magic [D&D 3.5?]. He appears to be working on a very powerful ritual, that could release what some might call an ‘epic spell’. Can the PCs stop him in time?

A mighty magic item in the possession of the heroes is in reality a Liches’ phylactery. Are the heroes able to figure out why said Lich is harassing them?

An Ancient Red Dragon lusts for the vast treasures of a powerfull Lich. Their escalating conflict is an increasing danger to the realm, as broad landscapes are destroyed. Only the heroes are powerfull enough to deal with this threat, but how?

A Lich is in control of a portal to the nine hells and uses it as a source of power. A Pitfiend knows about this and is trying to destroy its Phylactery to bring a permanent end to the Lich and release the hellish hordes to the material plane. The Lich is striking a deal with the heroes to stop the demons in order to save the world.

A shady individual offers a quest to the heroes. He works for an unknown third party who is interested in a certain magic item and wants to remain anonymous. The promised reward is very high with the option of further employments. Can the heroes figure out who really is behind all this? [Spoiler: A Lich ;)]

A legendary Magic Item can only be activated by a willing, good aligned creature. Can the Lich strike a deal with the heroes?

A Lich has imprisoned the son of the king in its phylactery. The heroes have 24 hours to free him.

Verdict
The Lich remains one of the BBEGs of this edition and I think it is overall a very interesting creature. In former editions the Lich used to be a template and IMO it made sense that way, but it is really easy in this edition to costumize creatures.

[Millstone85]

*So a Demi Lich is just a messy Lich? Instead of the pinnacle of Lichdom? That doesn’t really match the description of the Demi Lich in the same book…

There are two types of demiliches in 5e. Those with soul gems for eyes, and those without.

Oddly enough the Lich is a rather pathetic high level caster, as it has less spells prepared than a 18th level wizard, no spellmastery and no arcane tradition.

I believe the lich should be compared to the archmage in the NPC section of the MM, not to a wizard PC.

[DerKommissar]

There are two types of demiliches in 5e. Those with soul gems for eyes, and those without.

I believe the lich should be compared to the archmage in the NPC section of the MM, not to a wizard PC.

Yes, but still the lich should be better at casting than the archmage, yet its worse (and its 9 cr higher)...

[JackPhoenix]

Yes, but still the lich should be better at casting than the archmage, yet its worse (and its 9 cr higher)...

Why should it be better? While the would-be lich was looking how to become... well, itself, the archmage was studying magic to become more powerful spellcaster. The lich has other advantages to improve its CR instead of magic. Or the process actually drains him magically while it increases it's (un)natural toughness. And in any case, lich is not a wizard, which is PC class, it's an undead NPC.

Also, Simulacrum doesn't work with undead.

[Waar]

Purpose and Tactics:
The Lich has a long, complicated creature entry. Interestingly enough a Lich should have a CR of 16.5 according to the building rules. I interpret this huge difference of 4.5 in that way, that the authors actually wanted to “save some space” for customization, magic items, minions, etc. etc. But for now the vanilla Lich:
[U]

I'm not sure how you arrived at a cr of 16.5, I would put it's defensive cr at about 17 (and that is ignoring that is ignoring counterspell in favour of shield), and while the offensive cr is harder to claculate i would put it above 20 (but that is mostly based on power word kill and it's other high level spells).

However, that is based on the suggested metod for calculating cr in the dmg, and if it had other spells or a bit more hp, it would probably be a lot more potent in practice.

[DerKommissar]

Why should it be better? While the would-be lich was looking how to become... well, itself, the archmage was studying magic to become more powerful spellcaster. The lich has other advantages to improve its CR instead of magic. Or the process actually drains him magically while it increases it's (un)natural toughness. And in any case, lich is not a wizard, which is PC class, it's an undead NPC.

Also, Simulacrum doesn't work with undead.

Well the description of the Archmage states that evil Archmages might aim to become a lich, so I asumed they want to do that to improve their casting. As the lich is now they would actually become worse (loose their wizard features). Anyways, it was not really a rant, but more I found it a bit of a pity, that the lich is not better than the normal wizard/archmage. I understand the notion that a lich is not a wizard, but a entirely different creature though and I didnt wanna bash on the Lich in the MM. I think its a very nice creature - only laking a bit in spell power IMO, but thats just my opinion, so feel free to disagree :)

[DerKommissar]

I'm not sure how you arrived at a cr of 16.5, I would put it's defensive cr at about 17 (and that is ignoring that is ignoring counterspell in favour of shield), and while the offensive cr is harder to claculate i would put it above 20 (but that is mostly based on power word kill and it's other high level spells).

However, that is based on the suggested metod for calculating cr in the dmg, and if it had other spells or a bit more hp, it would probably be a lot more potent in practice.

I had this calculation - hope I did it right, but always glad if I can learn something, so please share your method if you want to:

CR 21 should have: proficiency +7, AC 19, 401 - 445 HP, AB +11, dmg 141 - 158/rd, Save DC 20

Defensive CR: 12
HP [135 + 90 (Legendary Resistence)] * 1,25 / AC 17
Edit: Waar is right, it should be Cr 15!



Offensive CR: 21 (choosing the damage option)
4 Rounds: Ray of Frost + Disintegrate + Disrupt Life
Damage: 18 (Ray of Frost) + [(disintegrate lvl 6+7+8+9 = 75+85+95+105)/4 =] 90 dmg + 42 dmg (disrupt life legendary action) = 150dmg/round

Total CR: 12 + 21 / 2 = 33/2 = 16.5

Edit: It should be: 15+21/2 = 18

[Requilac]

[I]*As Spamotron pointed out: Koschei the Deathless might be an inspiration. Extra Points to Koschei for the method of hiding his phylactery: A needle inside an egg, inside a duck, inside a rabbit, locked in a crystal chest and buried under an oak on an island – talk about paranoid ;)

If I were to ever become a lich, than this it totally how I would do it. This method is so much more creative than Vecna’s and Voldemort's combined (although i do not know very much about either). Not entirely sure how you put a duck inside a rabbit though...

[On a small side-rant: Why does it always have to be a male Human Lich. Why not a female Halfling Lich for once?]

Do we actually now if the lich pictured is a human man? It’s skin is stretched rather tight over its skeleton so my impression was that it organs and body features must have decayed away too. Would one actually be able to tell the difference between an undead man or woman. And how do we know it’s a human either? There is no size of scale presented here, and I do not quite know the bone structure of other fantasy races but I cannot imagine them being much different, so it could very well be whatever you want. And considering the lich’s fluff, I kind of get the impression that they do not even remember whatever gender and race they were in real life. To be completely honest, I highly doubt it would even care about such unimportant factors after a certain point. Also, squick factor to think about, if it loses all of its normal organs, can it still technically be considered a male or female or even a human at that point?

*So a Demi Lich is just a messy Lich? Instead of the pinnacle of Lichdom? That doesn’t really match the description of the Demi Lich in the same book…

I do not quite understand what is so bad about being a Demi-lich. Sure being a floating head sucks, but you are also magic. It probably would not take very long to whip up a dual mage hand or you could just have a servant do everything for you. That way they do not need to keep constantly supplying themselves with souls and attracting attention from annoying adventurers.

The Lich has a long, complicated creature entry. Interestingly enough a Lich should have a CR of 16.5 according to the building rules. I interpret this huge difference of 4.5 in that way, that the authors actually wanted to “save some space” for customization, magic items, minions, etc. etc. But for now the vanilla Lich:

I think it is probably because a lich would be played intelligently so they are much more dangerous than their CR would imply. Kind of like a tucker’s Kobold scenario; they are not that strong themselves but they use strategy to leverage their power. If a lich where to leverage their power properly, than they would probably remake the tomb of horrors. WotC needed to undermine the DC to make sure the lich does not become too big of a problem.

An Ancient Red Dragon lusts for the vast treasures of a powerfull Lich. Their escalating conflict is an increasing danger to the realm, as broad landscapes are destroyed. Only the heroes are powerfull enough to deal with this threat, but how?

Wait a second, why does that sound so familiar? You did not just... no, please tell me that was accidental. I am pretty sure that was the plot of the D&D 80s cartoon (you know, where the group of friends get sucked into the game). Why!? Why must you do this to use DerKomissar?!

[DerKommissar]

LOL i had no idea that this was a cartoon plot! So it’s an accidental reference... you got me curious though, what was it about and why is it so terrible?

[Requilac]

LOL i had no idea that this was a cartoon plot! So it’s an accidental reference... you got me curious though, what was it about and why is it so terrible?

I cannot say I have actually watched some of it (If i did, I cannot guarantee my sanity would have persevered) so let the wiki explain it all.

Or if that remains unsatisfactory than here is the IMDB summary. http://m.imdb.com/title/tt0085011/pl...mary-ps0023003

[Waar]

I had this calculation - hope I did it right, but always glad if I can learn something, so please share your method if you want to:

CR 21 should have: proficiency +7, AC 19, 401 - 445 HP, AB +11, dmg 141 - 158/rd, Save DC 20

Defensive CR: 12
HP [135 + 90 (Legendary Resistence)] * 1,25 / AC 17

Offensive CR: 21 (choosing the damage option)
4 Rounds: Ray of Frost + Disintegrate + Disrupt Life
Damage: 18 (Ray of Frost) + [(disintegrate lvl 6+7+8+9 = 75+85+95+105)/4 =] 90 dmg + 42 dmg (disrupt life legendary action) = 150dmg/round

Total CR: 12 + 21 / 2 = 33/2 = 16.5

Okay, so (135+90)*1.25 = 281.25 , -> defensive cr 15 from hp, but the lich can cast shield as its reaction every round bringing its ac up to 22, for a total defensive cr of 17.
for the offencive cr, things are more tricky but i would say that power word kill is more dangerous than disintegrate (since it can't miss if the target is below 100 hp). but offencive cr calculation is less exact.

[Unoriginal]

Lotsa comments I want to make, so first I'll address the posts that aren't the review:

I don't know, that part's pretty close to Koschei, it's just that he was still basically alive, not undead-- a living wizard with his soul in an object, not a decayed corpse powered by magic.

The difference between Koschei and a Lich is that Koschei put his death in the needle, so he's immortal as long as the needle isn't broken, while a Lich just has an item to hold their soul in case their body get destroyed, until they can create a new one.

"Separate item that must be destroyed if the being is to be killed permanently" fits the One Ring, and Sauron, very well.

Not quite. Sauron actually cannot be killed "for real", the One Ring just hold a lot of his power. Even after his final defeat he still lingered as a powerless shadow.

If Sauron hadn't created the One Ring, he probably still could have come back after his body got destroyed, but the cost would have been much bigger (though his bodiless form would, paradoxally, have had more power by itself).

And some versions emphasise that he is inhumanly thin - almost skeletal.

Yes, Koschei is probably as close of a lich you can get in ancient legend, but still very distinct.

If I were to ever become a lich, than this it totally how I would do it. This method is so much more creative than Vecna’s and Voldemort's combined (although i do not know very much about either).

I'm pretty sure no one know about Vecna's method (though it's probably on a distant demiplane no one know or care about). Not like he needs to worry about getting souls now that he's a god, anyway.

Not entirely sure how you put a duck inside a rabbit though...

In D&D, you can do that with an Imprisonment (Minimus Containment) spell, if the duck is big enough to have a gemstone inside it.

I do not quite understand what is so bad about being a Demi-lich. Sure being a floating head sucks, but you are also magic. It probably would not take very long to whip up a dual mage hand or you could just have a servant do everything for you. That way they do not need to keep constantly supplying themselves with souls and attracting attention from annoying adventurers.

If you become a Demilich (unless it's on purpose as part of Acererak's method), you lose all your spells and pretty much all of your magic. You're still very clever and the like, but your mind's too foggy about the practical side of the arcanes.

I think it is probably because a lich would be played intelligently so they are much more dangerous than their CR would imply. Kind of like a tucker’s Kobold scenario; they are not that strong themselves but they use strategy to leverage their power. If a lich where to leverage their power properly, than they would probably remake the tomb of horrors. WotC needed to undermine the DC to make sure the lich does not become too big of a problem.

Anyone with enough time and money can make a dungeon like the Tomb of Horror. The Lich is as dangerous as their CR implies, if only for their capacity to come back and learn from their defeat.

Wait a second, why does that sound so familiar? You did not just... no, please tell me that was accidental. I am pretty sure that was the plot of the D&D 80s cartoon (you know, where the group of friends get sucked into the game)

LOL i had no idea that this was a cartoon plot! So it’s an accidental reference... you got me curious though, what was it about and why is it so terrible?

Your plot idea has absolutely nothing to do with the D&D cartoon (which is excellent, by the way), DieKommissar.

The plot of the old D&D cartoon is that an evil Sorcerer named Venger tries to steal the magic weapons of a group of adventurers who were transported from our world, in order to defeat Tiamat.

Yes, THE Tiamat.

Why!? Why must you do this to use DerKomissar?!

I cannot say I have actually watched some of it (If i did, I cannot guarantee my sanity would have persevered)

Hey! The D&D cartoon is maybe not the best thing ever, but it's still an excellent cartoon, especially by 80's standards. And it aged pretty well.

It also contains one of the best villain quote about magic ever.

https://youtu.be/qot0yC9CPU4?t=1189

So don't diss it unless you have actual reasons for it. I apologize if it was a joke I didn't get, but people really don't need to be turned off this show.

[Millstone85]

Yes, but still the lich should be better at casting than the archmage, yet its worse (and its 9 cr higher)...

As the lich is now they would actually become worse (loose their wizard features).

Looking at the stat blocks, the lich has a better spell save DC, better spell attack modifier, better everything than the archmage. And what "wizard features" are you referring to?

I do not quite understand what is so bad about being a Demi-lich. Sure being a floating head sucks, but you are also magic. It probably would not take very long to whip up a dual mage hand or you could just have a servant do everything for you. That way they do not need to keep constantly supplying themselves with souls and attracting attention from annoying adventurers.

You are only a floating head when disturbed by the living. The rest of the time, you are a skull on the floor, you mind lost in "empty peace".

Even while conscious, "the spells [you] once knew fade from [your] mind" and you are generally in a crazed state. Dual mage hand? You do not even remember the normal version.

Acererak is special in that his demilich form is basically just an extension of his phylactery. He now "travel[s] the planes as a disembodied consciousness".

[Unoriginal]

A detail a lot of people are getting wrong is that the Lich's soul is NOT in the phylactery, most of the time.

The only times the soul is in the philactery is when the Lich is created for the first time, and when its body is destroyed and it is reforming.

A philactery isn't like an Horcrux from Harry Potter, which hold a part of someone's soul at all time.

Acererak is special in that his demilich form is basically just an extension of his phylactery. He now "travel[s] the planes as a disembodied consciousness".

Or he gives himself his body back for one scheme or another. That's part of the perks of being him.

[Requilac]

If you become a Demilich (unless it's on purpose as part of Acererak's method), you lose all your spells and pretty much all of your magic. You're still very clever and the like, but your mind's too foggy about the practical side of the arcanes.

I was indeed referring to the Acererak method^TM instead of the accidental losing of all your power. If you already went into lichdom, then I think you have the resources at hand to cast a spell which would allow keep your conscience even when you become a floating head. That was probably not intuitive though so I should have gone into detail about that.

Anyone with enough time and money can make a dungeon like the Tomb of Horror. The Lich is as dangerous as their CR implies, if only for their capacity to come back and learn from their defeat.

I suppose that is true. But I am saying that if it is an inherent part of their nature and it was almost certainly expected that they were to use strategic methods than it would be a good reason to bump up their CR. It’s not what I would do but I think there is some (even if faulty) logic in WotC’s reasoning behind that.

Hey! The D&D cartoon is maybe not the best thing ever, but it's still an excellent cartoon, especially by 80's standards. And it aged pretty well.

It also contains one of the best villain quote about magic ever.

https://youtu.be/qot0yC9CPU4?t=1189

So don't diss it unless you have actual reasons for it. I apologize if it was a joke I didn't get, but people really don't need to be turned off this show.

Perhaps you misunderstood me, I did not actually say the cartoon was terrible, I was making an effectionate joke on its ridiculousness. Part of me thinks the plot and characters of that show seem hilarious, and it is definitely the sort of humor that I would create. I would have probably watched it even were it around in my child-hood. I was mocking it in a way that I am actually acknowledging the humor present in the concept. But in retrospect, there was no way you could have known that I was not dissing. In fact, the intention of my comments was to actually draw people’s attention towards it and pique their curiosity for those who are interested. My insult was meant in the most joking and affectionate of manners. Sorry if I inadvertently offended you.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Anybody mind if I start working on the Medusa entry? I won’t post it for a while, but I’d like to lay claim to it.

[Unoriginal]

Anybody mind if I start working on the Medusa entry? I won’t post it for a while, but I’d like to lay claim to it.

Well I wanted to do it, but if you want to do it, go for it.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Well I wanted to do it, but if you want to do it, go for it.

No no no, you go ahead. I hadn’t seen anyone lay claim to it so I figured that I should/could volunteer.

[Regitnui]

Looking back at the lich and the dracolich, I think the lich suffers somewhat for trying to depict an "iconic" character, like the death knight allegedly being Lord Soth. It'd be far better to picture an actual, mummified/skeletonised lich, like a spellcaster who's completely stopped caring about their physical form except for basic functionality, IMO.

[Unoriginal]

Eh, Liches wearing rich clothes and lots of jewelry have always been present in the game. I've got no issue with the art.

[DerKommissar]

With wizard features i meant the archmages magic resistance which resembles the lvl 14(?) abjurer ability and the casting of disguise and invisibility at will which resembles spell mastery.

[Regitnui]

Eh, Liches wearing rich clothes and lots of jewelry have always been present in the game. I've got no issue with the art.

I've got nothing against that. I mean, I'd find it brilliant for the artwork to be a really hideous no-face rotted mage whose clothes and jewels are not only bright and rich but hang as if worn by a normal person, not a dessicated husk.

I always focus back on Erandis Vol from Eberron; a half-dragon elf teenager who was unwillingly turned into a lich by her mother. She looks horrendous, but when not wearing her "game face", spends her slots on looking alive, since that's her dearest wish.

Or look at Skyrim's dragon priests; they're mummified/dessicated, but wear the same armour and clothes they did in life; even a mask. There's many ways to do "lich", and I'm just a little.disappointed that the lich doesn't look more monstrous.

[Envyus]

The Lich in the Monster Manual is outright stated to be Szass Tam. The artist who made the piece lists it as Szass Tam as well.

Anyway the Lich does not become any worse as a caster then an Archmage so I don't get what DerKommissar was talking about with it being worse, in fact it's far better. They don't loose any wizard features or anything ether. Monsters are just not built the same as PC's.

[Envyus]

With wizard features i meant the archmages magic resistance which resembles the lvl 14(?) abjurer ability and the casting of disguise and invisibility at will which resembles spell mastery.

Oh ok. They have Legendary Resistance and Legendary Actions instead.

[SharkForce]

Well I wanted to do it, but if you want to do it, go for it.

No no no, you go ahead. I hadn’t seen anyone lay claim to it so I figured that I should/could volunteer.

why not both of you do it? it's a "let's read" not an "i'll read", and i doubt having two perspectives will hurt any.

[War_lord]

Looking back at the lich and the dracolich, I think the lich suffers somewhat for trying to depict an "iconic" character, like the death knight allegedly being Lord Soth. It'd be far better to picture an actual, mummified/skeletonised lich, like a spellcaster who's completely stopped caring about their physical form except for basic functionality, IMO.

I'm not convinced the problem is that they used Szass Tam. IMO the problem is that this artist's version of Szass Tam just looks like a guy with a really bad skin disease. If you google Szass Tam there is art that's way more lich-like. I just find Soth goofy, the helmet makes him look like a Final Fantasy character.

[Regitnui]

I'm not convinced the problem is that they used Szass Tam. IMO the problem is that this artist's version of Szass Tam just looks like a guy with a really bad skin disease. If you google Szass Tam there is art that's way more lich-like. I just find Soth goofy, the helmet makes him look like a Final Fantasy character.

I agree. It doesn't look undead to me, or at least, not as undead as the dracolich or even the death knight.