Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute

[Mystic Muse]

I honestly don't know what everybody brings, and several of them have multiple armies. I was told by a local Tyranid player that Zoabthropes would be good, but he also said a Harridan and Bio Titan are good and I'm not buying those any time soon.

If I don't need them (I do have 3 Hive Guards I just put together), then all the better, I just wanted to have more of an idea what I was doing if I did get them.

One player I saw with several giant tanks, the Grey Knight player has the baby-walker, and the Skitarri player had these walker things in the first game I played.

[Wraith]

Someone can probably point to a edition where they did take a big hit, or where some big kit of theirs dropped in use immediately. But over all, the core basics of their book are always good.

5th into 6th, when parking lots of tanks crewed by 5-man squads fell out of fashion. The tanks were still viable, but I think that the vast majority of people found that they suddenly didn't need half of them, which sucked if you had bought ~10 expensive vehicle kits that you didn't need and no-one else wanted to buy.

That was an extreme army list that was rightfully neutered however, and those 5-man squads have always been useful in one way or another. Just keep buying dudes rather than the fancy stuff, and you'll probably be alright even if it means you have to wait for a little while until you know what the other 'good stuff' is

Alright, thanks. I've been told I should buy a brood as an anti-vehicle unit, and wanted to know what all protecting them entailed.

Pretty much what Cheesegear said - put something cheap between them and your opponent so that they can't be killed easily. A big squad of Termagaunts are a good place to start, since they can shoot back and score an objective as well as protecting your more expensive units, and Venomthropes can also be a help depending on what sort of weapons your opponent is using. Zoanthropes have a 3+ Invulnerable Save, but if your opponent has ways to stop you from using Invulnerable Saves then giving them a reliable COVER Save can be important. It won't happen often but it's occasionally worth thinking about.

If I don't need them (I do have 3 Hive Guards I just put together), then all the better, I just wanted to have more of an idea what I was doing if I did get them.

One player I saw with several giant tanks, the Grey Knight player has the baby-walker, and the Skitarri player had these walker things in the first game I played.

Hive Guards are tough and are decent against Monstrous Creatures (such as the baby-walker) but they're slow and don't do much against Walkers and will definitely have big problems when faced with big tanks. Zoanthropes are more fragile, but can quite effectively kill all 3. Odds are that, unless you already have several other Monstrous Creatures in your army, you will definitely get a lot of benefit from the Zoanthropes.

[Lost Demiurge]

The big benefit of Zoanthropes to me is that they're a cheap synapse node with a 3+ invulnerable save.

(They added that invulnerable save in Hive Fleet:Leviathan to beef them up. If you're just going off the main codex you won't see that, but you can use it anyway. Remember that when they take damage.)

Zoanthropes are also a good and cheap psyker, but their tankbuster powers aren't as reliable as they used to be. Honestly, I've had more success with the hive guard, there. Sure, it's only a S8, and you need a 5 against AV 13 to scratch it, but if you get multiples of the little dudes you can park them in heavy cover and fire without caring about line of sight.

Now if you want really good melee tankbusters, invest in carnifexes. Get enough of them alive over to ram into tanks, and watch metal go flying. Sure, they have to survive to get that hit in, but it's still glorious when it works.

Last easily-available option for armor busting is the venom cannon. Sure, it's an artillery weapon, and you have to factor in drift chance, but if the dice are with you it's a good way to pop off hull points. And occasionally melt masses of troops into burbling puddles.

So no, you don't necessarily NEED zoanthropes, but they can be nice in the right army.

[LeSwordfish]

I think it's easy to say "marines will always be on top" because they're so incredibly versatile - you can do just about anything with marines, from tank swarm to deep strike, to bikes to scouts to skimmers... they've got it all. Whatever is good, you can do it with Space Marines, and whatever the neat trick of the hour is, you can ally it in.

That of course doesn't stand up if you're a newbie with limited models. If you buy two tactical squads and Age Of Space Sigmar gives scouts or bikes a massive boost, then sure Space Marines are on top, but you've got to pay just as much as if you were starting a new army.

[druid91]

To be fair, I'm planning on grabbing Skitarii, and maybe if I can convince myself it's not insane an imperial knight. And they don't exactly have a huge wealth of unit types.

[Voidhawk]

(They added that invulnerable save in Hive Fleet:Leviathan to beef them up. If you're just going off the main codex you won't see that, but you can use it anyway. Remember that when they take damage.)

Er, no? They've had Warp Field forever. It used to give a 2+ and a 5++, but then in the-codex-before-this-one they changed it to a 3++. It's right in the Zoanthrope entry in the book.

Now if you want really good melee tankbusters, invest in carnifexes. Get enough of them alive over to ram into tanks, and watch metal go flying. Sure, they have to survive to get that hit in, but it's still glorious when it works.

Carnifexes are good against armies with loads of tanks (eg, Guard), but you generally need about 3 (in individual squads) for one to survive to make contact. If you give them quad-devourers they'll at least be able to do something before they die. But, three 'fexes is a pretty big investment, so not something I'd recommend for a new player.

Last easily-available option for armor busting is the venom cannon. Sure, it's an artillery weapon, and you have to factor in drift chance, but if the dice are with you it's a good way to pop off hull points.

This is simply wrong. The Heavy Venom Cannon is a single shot at Str 9, which is very easy to just ping off anything of any size, and even if it gets through that'll take forever to grind down HP. And as a small blast on low-BS units, it's very easy to scatter and miss completely. A Walking Tyrant can do worse than use one while it gets close enough to do something else, but I certainly wouldn't rely on them.

Really, the most cost efficient money-wise unit for Heavy-Tank busting is the Hive Crone. Tentaclids can haywire anything, and you don't need to buy three or an additional Tyrannocyte to make it work.

[Forum Explorer]

Really, the most cost efficient money-wise unit for Heavy-Tank busting is the Hive Crone. Tentaclids can haywire anything, and you don't need to buy three or an additional Tyrannocyte to make it work.

And they have an extra high strength Vector Strike, so they can keep popping tanks and flyers once they run out of Tentaclids.

[Drasius]

Pretty much what Cheesegear said - put something cheap between them and your opponent so that they can't be killed easily. A big squad of Termagaunts are a good place to start, since they can shoot back and score an objective as well as protecting your more expensive units, and Venomthropes can also be a help depending on what sort of weapons your opponent is using. Zoanthropes have a 3+ Invulnerable Save, but if your opponent has ways to stop you from using Invulnerable Saves then giving them a reliable COVER Save can be important. It won't happen often but it's occasionally worth thinking about.

I think there's about 4 things in the game that ignore/reduce invulnerables [a "6" Stomp, Callidus' C'Tan phase blade, The new eldar #6 psy power and death hex/null zonemarine psy powers] and only 1 of those doesn't ignore cover too. Chaff is there to stop them getting charged, not for saves, though blocking LoS is also a winner since unless you're barrage, you can't shoot what you can't see.

Hive Guards are tough and are decent against Monstrous Creatures (such as the baby-walker) but they're slow and don't do much against Walkers and will definitely have big problems when faced with big tanks. Zoanthropes are more fragile, but can quite effectively kill all 3. Odds are that, unless you already have several other Monstrous Creatures in your army, you will definitely get a lot of benefit from the Zoanthropes.

Wot? str8 is nice but ap4 is trash vs MC's, especially the notorious 2+ MC's like the DK. 58 BS3 shots to drop a DK? That's not good at all. Conversely, it only takes 12 BS3 shots to drop an AV12 walker, 18 to drop an AV13 tank or 48 to drop a land raider. Yes, you can glance a land raider to death easier than you can kill a dreadknight with str8 not ap2 fire.

I think it's easy to say "marines will always be on top" because they're so incredibly versatile - you can do just about anything with marines, from tank swarm to deep strike, to bikes to scouts to skimmers... they've got it all. Whatever is good, you can do it with Space Marines, and whatever the neat trick of the hour is, you can ally it in.

That of course doesn't stand up if you're a newbie with limited models. If you buy two tactical squads and Age Of Space Sigmar gives scouts or bikes a massive boost, then sure Space Marines are on top, but you've got to pay just as much as if you were starting a new army.

It's actually incredibly easy to build a bad marine list - don't take a gladius and don't take grav. Without those, you're basically running a CSM list that traded stomtalons for heldrakes. You're already well and truely down the list from your previously uncontested #2/3 spot.

To be fair, I'm planning on grabbing Skitarii, and maybe if I can convince myself it's not insane an imperial knight. And they don't exactly have a huge wealth of unit types.

It's not insane at all. Not only is it a natural fit for skit/AdMech/IK, it's also as strong as you want it to be, from pure theme through to war convo it'll still pull it's weight more often than not and a single IK isn't the boogeyman that it used to be 2-3 years ago.

[druid91]

I think there's about 4 things in the game that ignore/reduce invulnerables [a "6" Stomp, Callidus' C'Tan phase blade, The new eldar #6 psy power and death hex/null zonemarine psy powers] and only 1 of those doesn't ignore cover too. Chaff is there to stop them getting charged, not for saves, though blocking LoS is also a winner since unless you're barrage, you can't shoot what you can't see.



Wot? str8 is nice but ap4 is trash vs MC's, especially the notorious 2+ MC's like the DK. 58 BS3 shots to drop a DK? That's not good at all. Conversely, it only takes 12 BS3 shots to drop an AV12 walker, 18 to drop an AV13 tank or 48 to drop a land raider. Yes, you can glance a land raider to death easier than you can kill a dreadknight with str8 not ap2 fire.



It's actually incredibly easy to build a bad marine list - don't take a gladius and don't take grav. Without those, you're basically running a CSM list that traded stomtalons for heldrakes. You're already well and truely down the list from your previously uncontested #2/3 spot.



It's not insane at all. Not only is it a natural fit for skit/AdMech/IK, it's also as strong as you want it to be, from pure theme through to war convo it'll still pull it's weight more often than not and a single IK isn't the boogeyman that it used to be 2-3 years ago.

I meant more price wise. A single IK would slightly less than double the price tag of the army as it sits. Between the model and codex.

[LCP]

I would say the first thing to consider when thinking about starting an army just before the new edition isn't "will these models still be good", it's "will 40K still be a game I want to play".

I collected Lizardmen. The Age of Sigmar rules Lizardmen got were nuts. Still wouldn't touch AoS with a ten-foot lizardpole.

[druid91]

I would say the first thing to consider when thinking about starting an army just before the new edition isn't "will these models still be good", it's "will 40K still be a game I want to play".

I collected Lizardmen. The Age of Sigmar rules Lizardmen got were nuts. Still wouldn't touch AoS with a ten-foot lizardpole.

This is a fair question, and my answer to it is possibly foolish... but.

If I have the old rulebooks, does it matter what they do in the new rules? I mean, presumably, models will be harder to find once they get discontinued but.... I'd be more concerned with staying current if the local gamestore scene around here wasn't essentially stillborn. Every few years someone gets the bright idea to start up a games workshop nearby, and a couple years after that, if not sooner, they go under. Same for other forms of local game store.

Our closest games workshop is in another state entirely, and even the closest brick and mortar store that sells GW products is in another county and barely supports them at all. Opting instead for FF X-wing, Netrunner, and Magic The Gathering as their bread and Butter.

[Blackhawk748]

Someone can probably point to a edition where they did take a big hit, or where some big kit of theirs dropped in use immediately. But over all, the core basics of their book are always good.

I contest this with Ork Boyz. They have long been the backbone of Ork armies, hell they're our Troops choice, but 7th rolled around and now they are garbage outside of a Green Tide. And before Cheese pops in and says "But they are T4 with a 4+ thats the meta!" Yes, but they have no offensive presence to speak of because they get obliterated before they can get into melee, where Orks need to be, and then theres new Mod Rule, which is just...bad. Like, i want to find the person who thought this rule up and punch them. In the face. With a chair. Thats on fire.

[LCP]

This is a fair question, and my answer to it is possibly foolish... but.

If I have the old rulebooks, does it matter what they do in the new rules? I mean, presumably, models will be harder to find once they get discontinued but.... I'd be more concerned with staying current if the local gamestore scene around here wasn't essentially stillborn. Every few years someone gets the bright idea to start up a games workshop nearby, and a couple years after that, if not sooner, they go under. Same for other forms of local game store.

Our closest games workshop is in another state entirely, and even the closest brick and mortar store that sells GW products is in another county and barely supports them at all. Opting instead for FF X-wing, Netrunner, and Magic The Gathering as their bread and Butter.

I would say think purely about what kind of games you're getting into the hobby to play. The cost to start a 40K army is high enough that I'd imagine you want to get some mileage out of it. If you've got a tight-knit group of friends who are all on board with the idea of playing whichever edition is your favourite for a good long while, then yeah, what GW choose to do with their rules is kind of secondary. If you're looking to go out and find pick-up games, or take part in tourneys, or anything like that, though, then the bottom line is that your pool of potential opponents is going to diminish over time. Old editions have a reduced player pool to start with from people switching to the new edition; they steadily lose players since there's no machinery to recruit new players into the game, and they get frozen out of GW stores and the like where the store-owners are trying to sell what's currently available. So you may find yourself with an expensive collection that you can't use the way you want to.

[Brookshw]

Wot? str8 is nice but ap4 is trash vs MC's, especially the notorious 2+ MC's like the DK. 58 BS3 shots to drop a DK? That's not good at all. Conversely, it only takes 12 BS3 shots to drop an AV12 walker, 18 to drop an AV13 tank or 48 to drop a land raider. Yes, you can glance a land raider to death easier than you can kill a dreadknight with str8 not ap2 fire.

I'm thinking about this and wondering why some shock cannons, despite their wild unpopularity, would not be a viable choice here. The math doesn't look nearly as bad as the AV is going up

[druid91]

I would say think purely about what kind of games you're getting into the hobby to play. The cost to start a 40K army is high enough that I'd imagine you want to get some mileage out of it. If you've got a tight-knit group of friends who are all on board with the idea of playing whichever edition is your favourite for a good long while, then yeah, what GW choose to do with their rules is kind of secondary. If you're looking to go out and find pick-up games, or take part in tourneys, or anything like that, though, then the bottom line is that your pool of potential opponents is going to diminish over time. Old editions have a reduced player pool to start with from people switching to the new edition; they steadily lose players since there's no machinery to recruit new players into the game, and they get frozen out of GW stores and the like where the store-owners are trying to sell what's currently available. So you may find yourself with an expensive collection that you can't use the way you want to.

This is true enough. Though honestly, yes I was mainly thinking about playing 'home' games. Honestly the idea of going out to play in a tourney is kind of odd to me. Same with pick-up games.

I did not get into tabletop games in order to socialize with strangers after all. : P

[Grim Portent]

I'm thinking about this and wondering why some shock cannons, despite their wild unpopularity, would not be a viable choice here. The math doesn't look nearly as bad as the AV is going up

Lack of flexibility, poor range, small blasts only so it's easy to scatter away, less effective against light and medium vehicles because you can't get as many potential hits would be my assumptions.

Personally I've just written off the Tyanids in codex anti-armour. It all sucks pretty bad, being unreliable, short range, inaccurate and expensive, and in the Crone's case it's not even reusable.

The only 'good' Tyranid anti-armour is Stonecrushers, and they're FW. Also only decent because even though two of them will guarantee a kill on just about any vehicle they charge, they're still fragile and slow.


Anti-armour is probably best allied in from Cults really, either in the form of ambushing Rock Saws or Mining Lasers and Autocannons.

[Drasius]

I'm thinking about this and wondering why some shock cannons, despite their wild unpopularity, would not be a viable choice here. The math doesn't look nearly as bad as the AV is going up

Lack of flexibility, poor range, small blasts only so it's easy to scatter away, less effective against light and medium vehicles because you can't get as many potential hits would be my assumptions.

Personally I've just written off the Tyanids in codex anti-armour. It all sucks pretty bad, being unreliable, short range, inaccurate and expensive, and in the Crone's case it's not even reusable.

The only 'good' Tyranid anti-armour is Stonecrushers, and they're FW. Also only decent because even though two of them will guarantee a kill on just about any vehicle they charge, they're still fragile and slow.


Anti-armour is probably best allied in from Cults really, either in the form of ambushing Rock Saws or Mining Lasers and Autocannons.

This.

Haywire is great and that goes double for armies like 'Nids who have no other real anti tank, but 1 short range shot on an [admittedly tough] BS3 platform that scatters for 60 points? No. All my no. Against things like IK and 'Raiders, then it's not the worst thing ever, but unless you face nothing but that (and even then you'd probably be better off with some carnifii), then the loss of the second shot and the huge loss of the AP4 ignores cover (fairly sure you know those 2 things together make them pretty decent by now), combined with not only requireing you to be both in LoS but also in easy charge range coupled with the gall to charge more points for it means that it's a hard pass.

Ya know what else has haywire? Electroshock grubs on your flyrant (because Hive Tyrants without Dual Devourers and E-Grubs are a myth).

2 shots, hitting on 4's, glancing on 3's vs rhinos and upwards from there, ignoring cover/jink and LoS will put ~ 2hp per 3 man squad on AV11, ~1.5 hp on AV12, ~1 hp on AV13 and ~0.5 hp on AV14, all from 24" away
1 small blast @ BS3, each glancing on 2's with what is probably a 5+ cover will put ~0.84 hp on anything roughly rhino-sized per 3 man squad (~1.29 hp without cover). Obviously you get more hp the bigger your target is since you miss less. So not only are you doing less damage for more points at less range with the shock cannons, you're also rolling on the pen chart less often since you're only penning on 6's instead of being dependant on the target. That's a terrible deal unless you do nothing but fight land raiders, in which case even if you do pop them, they disembark 6", then move 6" next turn and have, at max, a 6" charge, so your squad is dead or locked in combat. Besides, if you're facing land raiders and monoliths, a) you're lucky and b ) why aren't you taking carnifii? It's going to (on average) take 3+ turns to drop any 3+ hp vehicle with 3 shock cannons and I can assure you, unles your opponent is totally incompetant, they will deal with them before then. Sure, you're occassionally going to get lucky and hit and glance with everything and they're going to fail all their cover saves, but you're also going to make a 10+" charge with a carnifex about the same % of the time and the carni has more utility than a shock cannon does.

Unless you're facing nothing but russes, 'raiders, hammerheads (to a degree) or cron tanks, then the standard flyrant is going to do an infinately better job by being able to get side armour turn 1/2 and glancing stuff to death easily while E-Grubbing anything with AV13+ and possibly warp lancing something else for the lulz.

[Mystic Muse]

Zoanthropes are also a good and cheap psyker, but their tankbuster powers aren't as reliable as they used to be. Honestly, I've had more success with the hive guard, there. Sure, it's only a S8, and you need a 5 against AV 13 to scratch it, but if you get multiples of the little dudes you can park them in heavy cover and fire without caring about line of sight.

Define multiples. I have 3.

Now if you want really good melee tankbusters, invest in carnifexes. Get enough of them alive over to ram into tanks, and watch metal go flying. Sure, they have to survive to get that hit in, but it's still glorious when it works.

So no, you don't necessarily NEED zoanthropes, but they can be nice in the right army.

Thing is, Zoanthropes are substantially cheaper than Carnifexes. I mean, how many carnifexes would I need? If it's more than 2, that's starting to be a lot of money.

Carnifexes are good against armies with loads of tanks (eg, Guard), but you generally need about 3 (in individual squads) for one to survive to make contact. If you give them quad-devourers they'll at least be able to do something before they die. But, three 'fexes is a pretty big investment, so not something I'd recommend for a new player.

So, 3-6 fexes? That's kind of a lot of money. I mean, even at my FLGS, that'd be about...at least $206 plus tax for six, and I don't know if you get $5 off per $50 on special orders, so maybe $226 plus tax.

Really, the most cost efficient money-wise unit for Heavy-Tank busting is the Hive Crone. Tentaclids can haywire anything, and you don't need to buy three or an additional Tyrannocyte to make it work.

How is that more cost efficient than the Zoanthropes when it costs more than a package of Zoanthropes.

[Brookshw]

Yeah.....I started to write a rebuttal then gave up and hung my head in defeat. I do have a lot of knights and land raiders in my meta so podding in some cannons always feels tempting, especially w/ the high probability of carnifexes getting shredded getting near an enemy then finding themselves on the receiving end of d weapons, all the while being nigh useless at range against av 13+.

[Grim Portent]

How is that more cost efficient than the Zoanthropes when it costs more than a package of Zoanthropes.

Because one Hive Crone can kill vehicles more effectively than 3 Zoanthropes, so you don't need as many in your army to get the job done, so you need less kits overall.

Zoans are actually pretty bad at anti-tank. They don't generate many warp charges, need to manifest their power and then hit with it on BS3, then glance most good vehicles on a 2, assuming the enemy doesn't Deny the Witch them or have access to a save. A unit has a mediocre chance of killing a Leman Russ, dropping to terrible odds if you need warp charges for something else. Not to mention their short range and slow movement mean they're likely going to be charged by something if they're in range to shoot a vehicle.

The Crone meanwhile has pretty good odds between Tentaclids and Vector Strike to kill a Russ, though it can only pop one heavy tank before being stuck hunting light ones and infantry. Tentaclids average 2 hullpoints off a vehicle, and Vector Strike will usually take 1 hullpoint off side armour 12. After this it spends it's time hunting anything with a 4+ or worse armour save.

Zoans only real use is 3++ multi wound synapse, and the Crone is a one tank killer and then just an infantry harrier.

Personally I'd say that even plain old Crushing Claw Carnifexes are probably better than either as anti-tank. More reliable than, and no slower than to boot, the Zoanthropes, and can keep killing vehicles longer than the Crone. You just need a bunch of them so they don't get focused to death. But by a bunch I mean a small bucket worth.

For actual effective anti-tank for 'nids you're looking at most of your army's points, so they do need to be flexible units. One or two broods of Zoans or Crones is not going to manage 5 or more vehicles, they can only barely handle one each as it is, and it takes the former most of the game to get in range let alone actually kill it. There's a reason Flyrants with Devourers are so popular, and it's because they're one of the only units in the army that can kill most vehicles in the game and do so before turn 4 or 5 as well as being good against basically everything else as well.

[Forum Explorer]

Because one Hive Crone can kill vehicles more effectively than 3 Zoanthropes, so you don't need as many in your army to get the job done, so you need less kits overall.

Zoans are actually pretty bad at anti-tank. They don't generate many warp charges, need to manifest their power and then hit with it on BS3, then glance most good vehicles on a 2, assuming the enemy doesn't Deny the Witch them or have access to a save. A unit has a mediocre chance of killing a Leman Russ, dropping to terrible odds if you need warp charges for something else. Not to mention their short range and slow movement mean they're likely going to be charged by something if they're in range to shoot a vehicle.

The Crone meanwhile has pretty good odds between Tentaclids and Vector Strike to kill a Russ, though it can only pop one heavy tank before being stuck hunting light ones and infantry. Tentaclids average 2 hullpoints off a vehicle, and Vector Strike will usually take 1 hullpoint off side armour 12. After this it spends it's time hunting anything with a 4+ or worse armour save.

Zoans only real use is 3++ multi wound synapse, and the Crone is a one tank killer and then just an infantry harrier.

Personally I'd say that even plain old Crushing Claw Carnifexes are probably better than either as anti-tank. More reliable than, and no slower than to boot, the Zoanthropes, and can keep killing vehicles longer than the Crone. You just need a bunch of them so they don't get focused to death. But by a bunch I mean a small bucket worth.

For actual effective anti-tank for 'nids you're looking at most of your army's points, so they do need to be flexible units. One or two broods of Zoans or Crones is not going to manage 5 or more vehicles, they can only barely handle one each as it is, and it takes the former most of the game to get in range let alone actually kill it. There's a reason Flyrants with Devourers are so popular, and it's because they're one of the only units in the army that can kill most vehicles in the game and do so before turn 4 or 5 as well as being good against basically everything else as well.

Zoans are BS 4 I believe.

[Wraith]

Wot? str8 is nice but ap4 is trash vs MC's, especially the notorious 2+ MC's like the DK. 58 BS3 shots to drop a DK? That's not good at all. Conversely, it only takes 12 BS3 shots to drop an AV12 walker, 18 to drop an AV13 tank or 48 to drop a land raider. Yes, you can glance a land raider to death easier than you can kill a dreadknight with str8 not ap2 fire.

....Apparently I am no longer able to remember the difference between Hive Guard and Tyrant Guard. This would not be exceptionally egregious, had it not been I that wrote the How To: Tyranids guide in the opening spiel.

[Drasius]

Define multiples. I have 3.

A squad of 3 is fine, though sometimes you'll curse bringing them and others you'll wish you had another squad of 3. At the end of the day, there's a bit of competition in the elite slot - Venoms for shrouded bubbles, Zoans for synapse and WC and lictors for guiding in Mawlocks. Being 4th best in a slot usually doesn't end well unless you're in a formation (pro tip: They're not).

Thing is, Zoanthropes are substantially cheaper than Carnifexes. I mean, how many carnifexes would I need? If it's more than 2, that's starting to be a lot of money.

So, 3-6 fexes? That's kind of a lot of money. I mean, even at my FLGS, that'd be about...at least $206 plus tax for six, and I don't know if you get $5 off per $50 on special orders, so maybe $226 plus tax.

Carnifex is free in the big swarm box and you get 1 half off with the 2 carni bundle IIRC. They're not bad and they're not super expensive either while being a virtually mandatory purchase anyway because whereelse are you gonna get TL-devs for your flyrant?

How is that more cost efficient than the Zoanthropes when it costs more than a package of Zoanthropes.

You also don't need a pod to get a group of fexes in like you do for a group of zoeys.

... especially w/ the high probability of carnifexes getting shredded getting near an enemy then finding themselves on the receiving end of d weapons, all the while being nigh useless at range against av 13+.

Everything in the 'Nid army is useless against AV13 and Fexes have it a lot less bad against knights/walkers since a) HoW is I10 even if you go through terrain and b ) 3 CrClaw carnifii is ~ the same cost as a knight and, assuming they don't get too beat up on the way in, should wreck one after losing 1-2 guys to the chainsword.

Because one Hive Crone can kill vehicles more effectively than 3 Zoanthropes, so you don't need as many in your army to get the job done, so you need less kits overall.

Zoans are actually pretty bad at anti-tank. They don't generate many warp charges, need to manifest their power and then hit with it on BS3, then glance most good vehicles on a 2, assuming the enemy doesn't Deny the Witch them or have access to a save. A unit has a mediocre chance of killing a Leman Russ, dropping to terrible odds if you need warp charges for something else. Not to mention their short range and slow movement mean they're likely going to be charged by something if they're in range to shoot a vehicle.

The Crone meanwhile has pretty good odds between Tentaclids and Vector Strike to kill a Russ, though it can only pop one heavy tank before being stuck hunting light ones and infantry. Tentaclids average 2 hullpoints off a vehicle, and Vector Strike will usually take 1 hullpoint off side armour 12. After this it spends it's time hunting anything with a 4+ or worse armour save.

Zoans only real use is 3++ multi wound synapse, and the Crone is a one tank killer and then just an infantry harrier.

Personally I'd say that even plain old Crushing Claw Carnifexes are probably better than either as anti-tank. More reliable than, and no slower than to boot, the Zoanthropes, and can keep killing vehicles longer than the Crone. You just need a bunch of them so they don't get focused to death. But by a bunch I mean a small bucket worth.

For actual effective anti-tank for 'nids you're looking at most of your army's points, so they do need to be flexible units. One or two broods of Zoans or Crones is not going to manage 5 or more vehicles, they can only barely handle one each as it is, and it takes the former most of the game to get in range let alone actually kill it. There's a reason Flyrants with Devourers are so popular, and it's because they're one of the only units in the army that can kill most vehicles in the game and do so before turn 4 or 5 as well as being good against basically everything else as well.

Everything in the 'Nid army is bad anti tank - that's [one of the reasons] why 5 flyrants is a thing, same as how 3 flyrants and 3 mucolids allied into another army is a thing or CtA allies are also a thing.

[Mystic Muse]

Carnifex is free in the big swarm box and you get 1 half off with the 2 carni bundle IIRC. They're not bad and they're not super expensive either while being a virtually mandatory purchase anyway because whereelse are you gonna get TL-devs for your flyrant?

Honestly, nowhere. I'm not putting actual Twin Linked Devourers on my Flyrants because it makes them look ugly as sin. My group is fine with me just saying "those are actually twin-linked devourers"

Worst case scenario, I can make sure they're both magnetized and put TLDs on later.

Also, the big swarm box is $170. If fexes are that big of a deal, I may as well just get two of the double carnifex box instead, because I don't want most of what's in there. I don't have a use for the Hormagaunts, and I don't need another 40 Termagants since I have no Tervigons.

Everything in the 'Nid army is bad anti tank - that's [one of the reasons] why 5 flyrants is a thing, same as how 3 flyrants and 3 mucolids allied into another army is a thing or CtA allies are also a thing.

How do you run 5 Flyrants?

[Brookshw]

How do you run 5 Flyrants?

Multiple cad's or hive fleet detachment with an allied detachment generally, use mucolid spores to fill the troop slots on the cheap

[Voidhawk]

So, 3-6 fexes? That's kind of a lot of money.

Tyranids are fundamentally a swarm army. Their motto is "why take one, when you can take three?". Combined with an army structure that makes succeeding at small-points games very hard, is why I wouldn't recommend them to a new player very often. You could bring a single carnifex, but with only 4 wounds it won't likely make it to combat very often. Still, it can work as a distraction for the rest of your forces: eg a squad of Zoanthropes casting buff powers on it.
BTW, if you answer these questions we should be able to help you out a little more:
- What points level do you generally play at?
- What do you currently own? How have you been dealing with tanks before?
- Are any of the larger models able to swap weapons/biomorphs around? (Magnetised, pinned, etc)
- How strongly do the people in your area enforce WSIWYG? ("A model can only be equipped with what they are physically carrying")
- What do you like about Tyranids, that makes you want to play with them? (Giant monsters, swarms, flying death-dragons, sneaky lictors, etc)
- Is there anything you explicitly don't like, that being told to play with would put you off?

How is that more cost efficient than the Zoanthropes when it costs more than a package of Zoanthropes.

Because to get the best anti-tank use out of them, Zoanthropes need a Tyrannocyte as well, which costs more money. But not having to walk to the tank you want to kill is definitely worth it.

[Mystic Muse]

Tyranids are fundamentally a swarm army. Their motto is "why take one, when you can take three?". Combined with an army structure that makes succeeding at small-points games very hard, is why I wouldn't recommend them to a new player very often. You could bring a single carnifex, but with only 4 wounds it won't likely make it to combat very often. Still, it can work as a distraction for the rest of your forces: eg a squad of Zoanthropes casting buff powers on it.
BTW, if you answer these questions we should be able to help you out a little more:
- What points level do you generally play at?

the group normally does 1,500. I've only played 1 game at 350 to get my feet in the water, and got my rear handed to me by Skitarri walkers.

- What do you currently own? How have you been dealing with tanks before?

2 Mawlocs
2 Flyrants
2 Primes
3 Hive Guards
6 Warriors (and 3 more unassembled)
~8 Genestealers
10 Gargoyles (unassembled)
~30 Termagants.

And some number of Hormagaunts. More than 5, less than 10. I don't feel like finding and counting them right now.

- Are any of the larger models able to swap weapons/biomorphs around? (Magnetised, pinned, etc)

At least one Flyrant is, not sure about the other, will have to ask the guy painting it (I traded some MtG cards in exchange for professional grade paint jobs)

- How strongly do the people in your area enforce WSIWYG? ("A model can only be equipped with what they are physically carrying")

As long as you don't try to be a jerk and mention it at the start instead of halfway through the game, it won't be a big deal.

- What do you like about Tyranids, that makes you want to play with them? (Giant monsters, swarms, flying death-dragons, sneaky lictors, etc)

I want a flying death dragon so bad.

I like alien locusts from outer space. I have a Kerrigan messenger bag. The more something looks like it belongs in a Starcraft game, the better.

- Is there anything you explicitly don't like, that being told to play with would put you off?

Three things.

One, if it has a Cthulhu face, I have no real interest. If I don't need that many, then maybe.

Two, I don't want something where I need a crapton all at once in order for it to be effective. If a suggestion costs more than $100 in one go, it's probably not for me.

Three, I don't like genestealers or Genestealer cults. Mostly Genestealer cults.

Because to get the best anti-tank use out of them, Zoanthropes need a Tyrannocyte as well, which costs more money. But not having to walk to the tank you want to kill is definitely worth it.

Okay, that makes sense then.

[Voidhawk]

the group normally does 1,500. I've only played 1 game at 350 to get my feet in the water, and got my rear handed to me by Skitarri walkers.

Tyranids don't function very well in games beneath 1,500 points. They simply have too many weaknesses that can be exploited, plus a high reliance on support units (no high-str weapons on troops, need synapse, pyskers, venomthropes, etc).

2 Mawlocs
2 Flyrants
2 Primes
3 Hive Guards
6 Warriors (and 3 more unassembled)
~8 Genestealers
10 Gargoyles (unassembled)
~30 Termagants.
And some number of Hormagaunts.

Seems like a reasonable start, though the lack of non-warrior ground synapse is worrying (I personally find warriors very underwhelming). Next battle, bring the Hive Guard and see how you find them when shooting light/medium vehicles. Firing from outside LoS is great fun!

I want a flying death dragon so bad.

Well, if you like flying monsters you're in luck. Tyranids have some of the cheapest and most useful dragon-alikes around. 'Nid Flying Circus can be tricky to use correctly, but is very effective. The main way of doing it is to invest as few points into ground troops as possible using single Mucolid Spores or Rippers, but a more balanced force is also possible with a ground complement of Termagants and Tervigons.

If it has a Cthulhu face, I have no real interest. If I don't need that many, then maybe.
I don't want something where I need a crapton all at once in order for it to be effective. If a suggestion costs more than $100 in one go, it's probably not for me.
I don't like genestealers or Genestealer cults. Mostly Genestealer cults.

Right, so no Lictors, Venomthropes, or Cult-allies if you can get away with it.
Lictors would pair well with the Mawlocs you already have (giving no-scatter to a Mawloc is scary as hell), but if you want to go the flying route that's no real loss.
Venomthropes on the other hand are very useful (2+ Jink anyone?), but you can probably go without at this early stage at least. How much cover do you tend to play with?
Unfortunately, the "crapton or nothing" problem is just something you have to deal with as 'Nids. Less so with the flying ones, but carnifexes are particularly emblematic of it.

My recommendation at this stage is to have a bigger battle, say 1000pts or so, and bring both Flyrants (with devourers and electrogrubs) plus the Hive Guard. Once you've seen how that goes, start thinking about either a Hive Crone for full-on flying circus, or perhaps a Tervigon to shore-up the ground.

Edit:
Here's a possible 1000pt list you could bring:

Spoiler

Show

Flyrant (2x Devourers, Electrogrubs) - 240
Flyrant (2x Devourers, Electrogrubs) - 240
3 Hivegaurd - 165
3 Warriors + Barbed Strangler - 100
28 Termagants - 112
10 Hormagaunts + Toxin Sacs - 80
10 Gargoyles - 60
TOTAL - 997pts

Have the Hormagaunts and Gargoyles following the Flyrants as flankers, and to poison enemy monsters (like the Grey Knight baby-walker). Warriors baby-sit Termagants and Hivegaurd and try not to die, while they advance on midfield objectives.

[Lost Demiurge]

Define multiples. I have 3.

Three's the multiple I was referring to. That's a good size for tankbusting purposes. Mind you, it'll take a while to wear down a vehicle, usually, thanks to the way the math shakes out. Still, it's better than sitting there going "Well, none of my guys can scratch it. This sucks."

Thing is, Zoanthropes are substantially cheaper than Carnifexes. I mean, how many carnifexes would I need? If it's more than 2, that's starting to be a lot of money.

I usually run with at least one or two. Three's the most I'd take in most games. But looking at your army list below, yeah, zoanthropes are probably a better fit for the cost. You aren't doing the swarm thing, so any tankbusters on the field are gonna draw fire. Zoeys are much better at surviving that kind of hatred.

[LansXero]

This is true enough. Though honestly, yes I was mainly thinking about playing 'home' games. Honestly the idea of going out to play in a tourney is kind of odd to me. Same with pick-up games.

I did not get into tabletop games in order to socialize with strangers after all. : P

So long as you are comfortable with the amount of money you will spend on your collection, it shouldnt matter what edition you play or if you play at all. From experience, people tend to drop by stores not to ´socialize with strangers' but to find games at all, since most people who can afford expensive plastic toys tend to be busy people with busy lifes and well paying jobs, with equally busy friends who have all grown old and cant play anymore.