Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute

[lord_khaine]

If he wasn't able to be slingshot across the board I'm not sure he'd really be viable even at his current price. He's basically an old fashioned Distraction Carnifex without some way to move faster, enough plasma/las/grav/rending will drop him no matter how tough he is, and a Knight Gallant has something like a 56% chance to drop him in one round.

Enough Grav/rending will drop anything.. the problem is if its to much grav/rending thats required to do the dropping. And since Guilliman can LOS some of those hits away then it will take a bit more to down him.

Are they really overcosted? Or did things come out much later that were undercosted, and the new hotness?

They did not feel overcosted back before grav in particular meant large targets more or less had to fly to survive.

[Grim Portent]

Enough Grav/rending will drop anything.. the problem is if its to much grav/rending thats required to do the dropping. And since Guilliman can LOS some of those hits away then it will take a bit more to down him.

He can only LOS to units from the Victrix Guard formation, and it's a terrible formation so it's unlikely to see play. Unless he's waddling up the board with four units of footslogging Sternguard babysitting him he's not getting LOS.

They did not feel overcosted back before grav in particular meant large targets more or less had to fly to survive.

Not so sure of that myself, I started back in 5th and MCs were already on their way out just as a result of missiles and plasma. Grav just cemented the decline of the ones with armour saves and no invulnerables, and Greater Daemons got kneecapped by the loss of EW and going from a 4++ to 5++.

[lord_khaine]

He can only LOS to units from the Victrix Guard formation, and it's a terrible formation so it's unlikely to see play. Unless he's waddling up the board with four units of footslogging Sternguard babysitting him he's not getting LOS.

Oh alright, have not seen the actual formation, so cant comment on how useful it actually is. Or on what sort of tax it requires.

Not so sure of that myself, I started back in 5th and MCs were already on their way out just as a result of missiles and plasma. Grav just cemented the decline of the ones with armour saves and no invulnerables, and Greater Daemons got kneecapped by the loss of EW and going from a 4++ to 5++.

It did not feel nearly as bad then though. Missiles only had one shot each. Most plasma did have 2, but it were at a lower strenght, and usually with the risk of overheated.
Comparing that a grav cannon with 5 shots seems a little absurd. Its certainly no wonder that regular big monsters are no longer viable in most cases.

[Grim Portent]

Oh alright, have not seen the actual formation, so cant comment on how useful it actually is. Or on what sort of tax it requires.

Sicarius, 1 Honour Guard unit, 4 Vanguard Veterans/Sternguard Veterans units, no transports allowed. Everyone gets +1WS/BS and Guilliman can LOS to them if within 3".

It did not feel nearly as bad then though. Missiles only had one shot each. Most plasma did have 2, but it were at a lower strenght, and usually with the risk of overheated.
Comparing that a grav cannon with 5 shots seems a little absurd. Its certainly no wonder that regular big monsters are no longer viable in most cases.

Oh grav is certainly horrible, but MCs were being slaughtered by heavy weapons long before it was a thing. The problem is guns being cheap and MCs being expensive for their statline. Though grav either needs to lose most of it's shots or face a steep price hike.

[Blackhawk748]

MCs where partially dieing because of that goddawful 5th ed Nid Codex. I mean, besides Nids it was really just Daemons who had MCs and they still had Eternal Warrior in 5th, so they where fine.

As to Guilliman, he should have been 400. We all know it, hes a giant beatstick that buffs and can come back from the dead on a 4+, that is a lot of crazy stuff. The thing i find funny is, is that im still pretty sure more people are gonna buy the Forgeworld Guilliman if the want to field him, as the GW on looks like they talked to a 12 year old for design inspiration.

"He should be covered in gold and wield a giant flaming sword!!!!"

I mean, i guess you do get two good looking models in that box, but im still not gonna buy it cuz the only guy i really want is Voldus, and ill just make him myself.

[Turalisj]

Here I'm just hoping for a necron......

[Blackhawk748]

Here I'm just hoping for a necron......

They really do deserve it, i mean, outside of Dark Eldar, im pretty sure they have the least amount of stuff dedicated to them. They got one book with some formations? And it wasnt even like the Nids from that one either, who got really good ones, iirc the Cron ones from there are kinda meh.

Well the Burning One wasn't but then they said you need to use a Transcendent C'tan and everybody said f*** that.

[lord_khaine]

Oh grav is certainly horrible, but MCs were being slaughtered by heavy weapons long before it was a thing. The problem is guns being cheap and MCs being expensive for their statline. Though grav either needs to lose most of it's shots or face a steep price hike.

I didnt think it was that bad. MC's are kinda suposed to be killed by heavy weapons. But the firepower they faced were not so bad that it made them feel useless (except against Dark Eldar.. the poison.. The Horror!)

As for what should happen to grav, then i dont know. A reduction in the number of shots it have would certainly do a lot. But i prefer the idea of letting plasma be the monster/heavy infantery killer, and instead give grav some other function entirely. Like make units hit move as if they were in difficult/dangerous terrain or something. I believe like it function in 30k right now.

Of course, what i think is really needed is a complete reset like we had going from 2nd to 3rd edition.

[Blackhawk748]

I didnt think it was that bad. MC's are kinda suposed to be killed by heavy weapons. But the firepower they faced were not so bad that it made them feel useless (except against Dark Eldar.. the poison.. The Horror!)

As for what should happen to grav, then i dont know. A reduction in the number of shots it have would certainly do a lot. But i prefer the idea of letting plasma be the monster/heavy infantery killer, and instead give grav some other function entirely. Like make units hit move as if they were in difficult/dangerous terrain or something. I believe like it function in 30k right now.

Of course, what i think is really needed is a complete reset like we had going from 2nd to 3rd edition.

The problem is, 30k Grav sucks. The best rework i've seen of Grav is that its get better the bigger the target is.

Normal Infantry 5+
Bulky 4+
Very Bulky 3+
Extremely Bulky 2+

This puts it as the Monster killer yet, but Plasma's job is now dealing with 2+ Infantry, like Meganobs and Honor Guard

[Grim Portent]

I don't think a dedicated anti-MC gun is needed, there's not really much that can be done that won't also massacre other units and wind up being undercosted or overcosted into brokenness.

MCs are supposed to be a cross between heavy infantry and vehicles, and pre-grav they were mostly vulnerable to anti-tank and anti-heavy infantry weapons, like krak missiles, plasma, Dark Lances and so on. That was fine, but they often cost too many points, Greater Daemons in 5th were actually very good in my experience, being hard to kill but not impossible for the enemy to take down but Tyranids suffered since MCs ran 200+ points and weren't really good enough to justify it a lot of the time, though not as badly as they suffer now.

The problem is undercosted MCs like Riptides who can massacre their way through the units that should be gunning them down and have a 3++ to shrug off the attempts to kill them with dedicated guns, so you need good ap and lots of shots, but that then overkills any MC without an invulnerable, and the specific implementation also kills everything else.

Grav was an answer to Wraithknights and Riptides, the former with a 5++ and 5+++, the latter with a 3++ and access to 5+++. If the former was properly costed at 400 points base 500 points upgraded, and the latter was either locked to a 5++ or one nova charge per game or cost 100 more points, grav wouldn't have been necessary as lascannons, missiles and plasma would have been able to take either down with no real issue.

The problem is, 30k Grav sucks. The best rework i've seen of Grav is that its get better the bigger the target is.

Normal Infantry 5+
Bulky 4+
Very Bulky 3+
Extremely Bulky 2+

This puts it as the Monster killer yet, but Plasma's job is now dealing with 2+ Infantry, like Meganobs and Honor Guard

It also makes it an ogryn, biker, cavalry, and Tyranids in general killer. It seems unfair to me for it to wound Tyranid Warriors/Venomthropes/Zoanthropes/Tyrant Guard/Hive Guard and Ogryn on a 2+, there's already enough weapons that punish them.

[Blackhawk748]

I agree, i would have preferred if it had never existed, but its here now, and we are kinda stuck with it, we just need to figure out what to do with the bloody thing.

I guess we could make it hit everything on a 4+ (like lesser Fleshbane) with AP - (its got the number of shots, and toss Concussive on it?

[Forum Explorer]

Enough Grav/rending will drop anything.. the problem is if its to much grav/rending thats required to do the dropping. And since Guilliman can LOS some of those hits away then it will take a bit more to down him.



They did not feel overcosted back before grav in particular meant large targets more or less had to fly to survive.

The Swarmlord was always overpriced. I don't think I've ever seen that model successfully used. Though for different reasons over the ages. In the past you could simply make a cheaper Hive Tyrant that was only slightly worse then the Swarmlord, that did 90% of what you wanted the Swarmlord to do, plus being more mobile for having wings.

Of course, what i think is really needed is a complete reset like we had going from 2nd to 3rd edition.

Agreed. Vehicles, Gargantuans, Super-heavies, psykers, flying, and jinking all could use a change as well.

The problem is, 30k Grav sucks. The best rework i've seen of Grav is that its get better the bigger the target is.

Normal Infantry 5+
Bulky 4+
Very Bulky 3+
Extremely Bulky 2+

This puts it as the Monster killer yet, but Plasma's job is now dealing with 2+ Infantry, like Meganobs and Honor Guard

I'd either drop it's shots down by a lot, like one shot at 48, 2 shots at 24. Or make it wound off of the target's strength value/make the target take a bunch of strength tests. Because being strong is how you'd resist it. Or it still wounds off armor, but you get a strength test to save it.

[LeSwordfish]

I'll repeat my suggestion that Grav should be blasts rather than multiple shot, allowing it to still kill terminators, but not to also erase vehicles so easily. That does mean Monstrous Creatures are tougher against it, but damn, throw them a bone.

[Blackhawk748]

I'll repeat my suggestion that Grav should be blasts rather than multiple shot, allowing it to still kill terminators, but not to also erase vehicles so easily. That does mean Monstrous Creatures are tougher against it, but damn, throw them a bone.

I think if it became a blast it would suddenly become gak, but then again, Small Blasts need a buff.

[Tvtyrant]

I think if it became a blast it would suddenly become gak, but then again, Small Blasts need a buff.

Small blasts should only have 1d6 for scatter, making them very accurate relative to large blasts but still unlikely to hit individual models.

[Blackhawk748]

Small blasts should only have 1d6 for scatter, making them very accurate relative to large blasts but still unlikely to hit individual models.

That would work, the other one i've seen is that you can place the blast marker anywhere within the target unit instead of having to place it on a specific model.

[Vaz]

The problem is, 30k Grav sucks. The best rework i've seen of Grav is that its get better the bigger the target is.

TIL instagibbing Transports which have AV16 and 5 Hull Points forcing the occupants to take difficult and dangerous terrain rolls when many of their lethal CC units cannot Run or Psychic Bunny Hop around the battlefield is bad.

[Bobby Baratheon]

I'm of the opinion that small blasts need to at least able to be snap fire (even if with some caveat like rerolling direct hits or not subracting BS from scatter). 1d6 scatter for normal shots would also be good.

[lord_khaine]

Grav was an answer to Wraithknights and Riptides, the former with a 5++ and 5+++, the latter with a 3++ and access to 5+++. If the former was properly costed at 400 points base 500 points upgraded, and the latter was either locked to a 5++ or one nova charge per game or cost 100 more points, grav wouldn't have been necessary as lascannons, missiles and plasma would have been able to take either down with no real issue.

It is a little hard to excuse how hard GW screwed up with these units. And now sadly their prefered choice for fixing things are to screw up something else.

The Swarmlord was always overpriced. I don't think I've ever seen that model successfully used. Though for different reasons over the ages. In the past you could simply make a cheaper Hive Tyrant that was only slightly worse then the Swarmlord, that did 90% of what you wanted the Swarmlord to do, plus being more mobile for having wings.

I recall it were kinda feared for its ability to munch most other things in melee. Back then its ability to force the reroll of successful invulnerable saves made it rather unique. And pretty effective at defeating other army champions. It did need a bodyguard though.

Agreed. Vehicles, Gargantuans, Super-heavies, psykers, flying, and jinking all could use a change as well.

I think the change needed for Gargantuans and Super-heavies are mainly that they should harder to come by. And with less grav around vehicles might not need a change after all.

[Bobby Baratheon]

That Heralds of Ruin Kill Team mini-tourney is later today. Here's my semi final list:

Spoiler: One's a robot, the other's a fascist: together, they fight crime!

Show

Leader:
Peltast Alpha (taser goad, conversion field, mindscrambler grenade, incense generator)

Core:
Secutarii Peltasts (x10; enhanced data tether)

Skitarii Vanguard (x5)

Inquisition Acolyte Squad (hot shot lasguns)

Special:
Ordo Xeno Interrogator (hot shot lasgun)

Inquisitorial Chimera (double heavy bolters, psybolt ammunition)

The plan is to put the inquisitor and his goons inside the Chimera, and use all those delicious S6 shots and the five firing ports to let him and his boys roll around and shoot stuff. The Peltasts will shred through infantry out in the open (Math-hammer tells me that they should kill ~6 meqs a turn with the flechette shots, and God help any GEQs that cross their path) and can fill other roles as needed with their special ammunition. The Alpha and the Vanguards will be a nice little surprise in melee, as Vanguard will drop enemy T by 1 and put MEQs under the ID threshold for the taser goad. I'm hoping to bait the enemy leader into charging into my oh-so vulnerable tin men. As transports go, the hope is to glance them to death or just ignore them depending on the situation.

[Forum Explorer]

It is a little hard to excuse how hard GW screwed up with these units. And now sadly their prefered choice for fixing things are to screw up something else.



I recall it were kinda feared for its ability to munch most other things in melee. Back then its ability to force the reroll of successful invulnerable saves made it rather unique. And pretty effective at defeating other army champions. It did need a bodyguard though.



I think the change needed for Gargantuans and Super-heavies are mainly that they should harder to come by. And with less grav around vehicles might not need a change after all.

It's not like it actually fixes things either. It just means one other army actually has an answer to it. Meanwhile everyone else is in the same boat as before.


Oh it could and would do that certainly. But you could make a melee Hive Tyrant that was not quite as good in CC, but still pretty scary. For less points and a 12 inch move.


They've got a bunch of minor issues with them. For example, the 6 roll for stomp. Why is that a removes from play instead of a strength D hit? Also the 12 inch move. Them being really big is not an acceptable excuse, not when that's never mattered before for other models.

As for vehicles, well they've always had the issue of 'I paid 150+ points for the model and you just killed it in one hit. Meanwhile your MC will take 3-6 hits to kill, likely more, no matter what'. Just make vehicle a type and get rid of the damage tables and Armor Values altogether. It's not like they made much sense anyways. Not when MCs don't have a similar thing.

[lord_khaine]

It's not like it actually fixes things either. It just means one other army actually has an answer to it. Meanwhile everyone else is in the same boat as before.

No it isnt, it just created another demand for the new silver bullet type units. And once more screwing everything else over. Though now its a lot smaller boat the remaining people sits in, as SM got whats almost a general solution to everything.
I mean, its hard to ignore why Cheese ramble so much about them, after having seen just what sort of damage they can do. I almost suspect that against most types of targets Grav bikes offer more killing power than Wraithguards. And they got freaking S D weapons.

Oh it could and would do that certainly. But you could make a melee Hive Tyrant that was not quite as good in CC, but still pretty scary. For less points and a 12 inch move.

It was a lot less scary though. Easier to kill in melee because you could rely on your invulnerable save against it. And easier to shoot because it did not have its bodyguard to soak hits for it. Of course as you said, it were also cheaper and faster.
So a tradeoff.

They've got a bunch of minor issues with them. For example, the 6 roll for stomp. Why is that a removes from play instead of a strength D hit? Also the 12 inch move. Them being really big is not an acceptable excuse, not when that's never mattered before for other models.

I cant say if it were needed or not to counter the deathstars that were running rampamt before. 2++ rerolled should newer have been allowed to start with. But GW fumbled the ball with that as well.

As for vehicles, well they've always had the issue of 'I paid 150+ points for the model and you just killed it in one hit. Meanwhile your MC will take 3-6 hits to kill, likely more, no matter what'. Just make vehicle a type and get rid of the damage tables and Armor Values altogether. It's not like they made much sense anyways. Not when MCs don't have a similar thing.

To start with it is a bad idea to count things in hits, as technically a vehicle can take an infinitive number of hits. And rulewise i always though they more or less evened out, as yes a 6 on the damage table would instantly kill your vehicle. But in return it were much harder to roll on that damage table. As AV were much higher on average. And more ressiliant to small arm fire. Not to mention force weapons instantly killing your MC.

[Renegade Paladin]

To start with it is a bad idea to count things in hits, as technically a vehicle can take an infinitive number of hits.

That hasn't been true since the end of 5th Edition.

[Bobby Baratheon]

To start with it is a bad idea to count things in hits, as technically a vehicle can take an infinitive number of hits.

Maybe if they're lasgun hits, but anything larger is going to cause an issue. The (over)abundance of extremely effective anti-vehicle weaponry is pretty brutal for mech armies. Take a look at how much haywire some of the Admech armies can spit out, and then remember how nasty meltaguns and meltabombs are for the low, low price of 10 and 5 points respectively.

[Blackhawk748]

That Heralds of Ruin Kill Team mini-tourney is later today. Here's my semi final list:

Spoiler: One's a robot, the other's a fascist: together, they fight crime!

Show

Leader:
Peltast Alpha (taser goad, conversion field, mindscrambler grenade, incense generator)

Core:
Secutarii Peltasts (x10; enhanced data tether)

Skitarii Vanguard (x5)

Inquisition Acolyte Squad (hot shot lasguns)

Special:
Ordo Xeno Interrogator (hot shot lasgun)

Inquisitorial Chimera (double heavy bolters, psybolt ammunition)

The plan is to put the inquisitor and his goons inside the Chimera, and use all those delicious S6 shots and the five firing ports to let him and his boys roll around and shoot stuff. The Peltasts will shred through infantry out in the open (Math-hammer tells me that they should kill ~6 meqs a turn with the flechette shots, and God help any GEQs that cross their path) and can fill other roles as needed with their special ammunition. The Alpha and the Vanguards will be a nice little surprise in melee, as Vanguard will drop enemy T by 1 and put MEQs under the ID threshold for the taser goad. I'm hoping to bait the enemy leader into charging into my oh-so vulnerable tin men. As transports go, the hope is to glance them to death or just ignore them depending on the situation.

Firstly, thank you for having me look over the HoR lists again, as they all got updated in January and im so happy.

[Bobby Baratheon]

Firstly, thank you for having me look over the HoR lists again, as they all got updated in January and im so happy.

I'm definitely happy with the new lists. I just hope they get the Imperial Militia and Cults list up before too long, as I have a strange fondness for that army.

[Blackhawk748]

I'm definitely happy with the new lists. I just hope they get the Imperial Militia and Cults list up before too long, as I have a strange fondness for that army.

My Death Guard Kill Team is so happy, i just saved a bunch of points

[lord_khaine]

That hasn't been true since the end of 5th Edition.

In that case i invite you to calculate how many bolter hits you need to destroy a Land Raider

Maybe if they're lasgun hits, but anything larger is going to cause an issue. The (over)abundance of extremely effective anti-vehicle weaponry is pretty brutal for mech armies. Take a look at how much haywire some of the Admech armies can spit out, and then remember how nasty meltaguns and meltabombs are for the low, low price of 10 and 5 points respectively.

Actually Lasgun hits stop working at AV 10, while still being able to hurt a T6 creature. The AV penetration chart is advantageous compared to the S/T chart for the defender.
Besides that the abundance of anti-vehicle weapons are not in itself the problem. The problem is more that its needed because its possible to actually make mech armies in the first place. Since those armies are immune to small arm fire you straight up need a lot of anti-vehicle weapons to cover for that.

Meltaguns and meltabombs i think are a lot less of a problem than Grav weapons, due to their really short range. Here the problem is more that drop pods make delivery to easy, with limited options for counterplay.

[Blackhawk748]

In that case i invite you to calculate how many bolter hits you need to destroy a Land Raider

We can say the same thing about shooting at anything with T8, they too will take infinite S4 attacks.

[Grim Portent]

MkIII marines and Tartaros Termies are up for pre-order now, but the interesting thing is the site says they can be added to a Space Marines or Chaos Space Marines force, so we might be seeing rules for the termies to be taken in Chaos armies, which could be interesting since we got stiffed on Cataphracti.