Please tell me we are not going to have to deal with getting the sword back again

[littlebum2002]

I have to think that any captain who tried to say, "i will make you all walk the plank," would not be having a very good day immediately afterwards.

I thought mutiny was a capital offense?

The main question I have is whether everyone committed mutiny, or just Andi.

If it was everyone, you can't really just execute your entire crew, because 1) they won't let you and 2) you won't have a means of travel afterwards.

If it was just Andi, then Bandana would be very justified in carrying out her sentence, but that would leave the ship without a (seemingly very competent) engineer for a world threatening mission, which would be less than ideal.

[Jasdoif]

I thought mutiny was a capital offense?

That depends: Who has standing to decide whether mutiny on the Mechane is a capital offense or not?

[The Aboleth]

I don't know what story some people are reading but what I saw was Bandana getting it through the crews' heads that they are on a bigger mission than some random privateering and they are just going to have to deal with it. Her statement "The crew just got lost for a bit. I think they found the right path now." wasn't just about the mountain pass. I think what has been done is to establish that the airship will be there to get the group where they need to go without further incident - at least, internally.

The crew now being in line does not mean personnel changes cannot or will not be made at the earliest convenience. Bandana may very well give most of the crew a pass because of the circumstances and life-or-death pressure of the situation, but Andi probably will not get such a pass. I can definitely foresee a situation where after arriving in Firmament, Bandana fires Andi and begins search for a new engineer. Keeping someone aboard who literally hit you with a wrench in a moment of anger and then literally usurped command from you in the aftermath is not something most Captains would do--even if the person in question was an extremely good engineer (as Andi has been shown to be, whatever her other faults).

Of course, Andi's firing may very well wait until after they drop the Order off at Kraagor's Gate. But again, I would also find it reasonable if Bandana decided--either because of the mutiny situation and/or because the ship now lacks weapons and she deems taking the unarmed ship further north is too much of a risk--to not have the airship be available after dropping them off in Firmament to deal with Durkula. We'll see how it all shakes out.

[pendell]

I thought mutiny was a capital offense?

The main question I have is whether everyone committed mutiny, or just Andi.

They certainly 'failed to do their utmost' to stop it so, yes, under the old-school rules they'd be liable to hanging same as Andi would be.

Maybe if Bandanna had a crew of golems standing by to take their places, she might consider it. Might. But she also grew up with many of these people. I think she's satisfied with the resolution as is. So long as she's in command and the crew is obedient, she's willing to overlook this little ... misunderstanding.

This is what prosecutorial discretion is all about. Just because someone is guilty of a crime doesn't mean you've got to charge them for it, and just because you charge them doesn't mean you have to assign the maximum penalty.

There is a school of thought in the real world that law is not a force in and of itself. Instead, law is a tool for preserving social harmony. If utter obedience to the law means the utter destruction of the very society it was designed to serve as the foundation of , then it has stopped being helpful and is now a menace. That's why there are mechanisms both to reform and to repeal bad laws.

... Of course, in D&D world, where Law is a force with its own outer plane, maybe that would be a neutral or chaotic outlook.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[The Aboleth]

I thought mutiny was a capital offense?

Keeping fully in mind that the pirates are not part of an actual military (and even if they were, they would not necessarily be bound by real-world rules):

In the US Navy, all military personnel are bound by a set of laws called the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ). When a sailor violates the UCMJ, his or her Captain has extremely wide latitude to determine the offender's punishment at the conclusion of the hearing (called a "Captain's Mast"). Mutiny CAN be a capital offense, but generally a Captain in today's navy would not enforce it as such--they would probably demote them back to E1 (Seaman Recruit), confine them to the brig on several days' bread and water treatment (in which their meals literally only consist of bread and water) and then immediately begin the process of discharging the sailor from military service with a Dishonorable Discharge on their record.

Of course, that's much less dramatic for a comic strip. "Andi, I hereby demote you to scrubbing the poop deck until we hit port, at which point you will leave the ship and never return--and good luck getting hired at any other ship once they hear you staged a mutiny." Maybe that'll be a bonus strip?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

generally a Captain in today's navy would not enforce it as such

Reminds me of a moment in Starship Troopers where they discuss the punishment for desertion. Theoretically, it could be capital punishment, but usually the Army contents itself with 10 50 lashes... unless of course you do it in a context where it turns from an informal form of quitting into dangerous activity, such as "in the face of the enemy". Which is, of course, what Andi did do. She didn't commit mutiny while the ship was becalmed, but while the ship was under attack. Even if mutiny might not always mean capital punishment, in RL or OotS, I'd think that the qualifier is rather crucial to the whole situation.

Mind you, I don't expect Andi to be condemned to walk the plank due to her mutiny at this point, but that's mostly due to the PG-13 nature of the comic (and yes, I'm aware of the disconnect between "but the comic shows people being killed by the good guys all the time" and "it would be strange for the comic to depict a lawful execution of an antagonist by a good guy")

Grey Wolf

[littlebum2002]

That depends: Who has standing to decide whether mutiny on the Mechane is a capital offense or not?

Keeping fully in mind that the pirates are not part of an actual military (and even if they were, they would not necessarily be bound by real-world rules):

In the US Navy, all military personnel are bound by a set of laws called the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ). When a sailor violates the UCMJ, his or her Captain has extremely wide latitude to determine the offender's punishment at the conclusion of the hearing (called a "Captain's Mast"). Mutiny CAN be a capital offense, but generally a Captain in today's navy would not enforce it as such--they would probably demote them back to E1 (Seaman Recruit), confine them to the brig on several days' bread and water treatment (in which their meals literally only consist of bread and water) and then immediately begin the process of discharging the sailor from military service with a Dishonorable Discharge on their record.

Of course, that's much less dramatic for a comic strip. "Andi, I hereby demote you to scrubbing the poop deck until we hit port, at which point you will leave the ship and never return--and good luck getting hired at any other ship once they hear you staged a mutiny." Maybe that'll be a bonus strip?

I'm more referring to actual pirates, not the military. Oddly enough, I can't find any information on what actually happened when pirates attempted mutinies, but in the movies, it always seems like it means death for all those involved. Which makes sense, because you want to discourage it from happening again.

Maybe Bandana feels like she can keep the crew under her command without having to resort to killing a long time friend? Who knows.

[KorvinStarmast]

Mind you, I don't expect Andi to be condemned to walk the plank due to her mutiny at this point, but that's mostly due to the PG-13 nature of the comic (and yes, I'm aware of the disconnect between "but the comic shows people being killed by the good guys all the time" and "it would be strange for the comic to depict a lawful execution of an antagonist by a good guy")

We had discussed in a different thread the matter of pirates marooning crew members who stepped beyond the pale; marooning would fit your assessment like a glove.

[Peelee]

I thought mutiny was a capital offense?

Let me rephrase.

I have to think that any single person who tried to say, "i will make everyone but me walk the plank," would not be having a very good day immediately afterwards.

[pendell]

Let me rephrase.

I have to think that any single person who tried to say, "i will make everyone but me walk the plank," would not be having a very good day immediately afterwards.

Xykon would get away with it. With Lich damage reduction, he could kill them all without taking so much as any but a point of damage. Maybe a high-level adventurer could do it as well. An ordinary person or an ordinary captain couldn't.

And if they did, they'd have the small problem of a crewless ship. Xykon would solve this, again.

Zombie sailors! Same amount of work, no complaints or feeding.

... Actually, I'm not sure why he wouldn't just crew the ship with zombies from the start. Entertainment value, maybe?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[goodpeople25]

Xykon would get away with it. With Lich damage reduction, he could kill them all without taking so much as any but a point of damage. Maybe a high-level adventurer could do it as well. An ordinary person or an ordinary captain couldn't.

And if they did, they'd have the small problem of a crewless ship. Xykon would solve this, again.

Zombie sailors! Same amount of work, no complaints or feeding.

... Actually, I'm not sure why he wouldn't just crew the ship with zombies from the start. Entertainment value, maybe?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Zombies are not really known for being skilled labour and I think at the very least some sort of skill check if not a total lack of capability for mindless zombies would come up in crewing something beyond the basics. Not sure if there's anything out there on what skill(s) that would be or other rules regarding ships though.

Of course that dosen't necessarily enter the equation with the lich in question.

[Keltest]

I'm more referring to actual pirates, not the military. Oddly enough, I can't find any information on what actually happened when pirates attempted mutinies, but in the movies, it always seems like it means death for all those involved. Which makes sense, because you want to discourage it from happening again.

Maybe Bandana feels like she can keep the crew under her command without having to resort to killing a long time friend? Who knows.

Pirates generally did not appreciate that kind of behavior any more than legitimate military sailors, shockingly enough, but unless they were particularly hasty and stupid about it, it would tend to end up fairly bloodless, either because the mutineer had total support of the crew or minimal support when they initiated mutiny.

What happened to the loser largely depended on the relationship between them and the victor, but pirates were not known for having a high level of tolerance for shenanigans on their ships and in their crews.

[The MunchKING]

Let me rephrase.

I have to think that any single person who tried to say, "i will make everyone but me walk the plank," would not be having a very good day immediately afterwards.

If he (or she) was a MUCH higher level than everyone else, it'll still get rid of all those pesky deserters. :p Granted He (or she) probably won't get all that plank walking they wanted.

... Actually, I'm not sure why he wouldn't just crew the ship with zombies from the start. Entertainment value, maybe?

Running short on Opals? :p

[hamishspence]

Reminds me of a moment in Starship Troopers where they discuss the punishment for desertion. Theoretically, it could be capital punishment, but usually the Army contents itself with 10 lashes... unless of course you do it in a context where it turns from an informal form of quitting into dangerous activity, such as "in the face of the enemy".

50 - but it only happens when the deserters turn themselves in - since the Army has zero interest in retrieving said "informal quitters"

Combined with the fact that it is incredibly easy to formally quit - (you can quit a few seconds before climbing into your drop pod and all that happens is you don't get voting privileges granted for completing your term) and desertion is likely to be pretty rare.

It also discusses "striking a superior officer" (rather relevant to Andi's case) - 10, and expulsion, was what the person in training who did it got - but that was only because the guy admitted it, during trail for a lesser offence - he then got "field court martial" (with limited sentencing powers) rather than "general court martial".

They were bending over backward not to try him for that - but since he mentioned it in his own testimony - he was stuck.

[Xyril]

Your wit shall never be equaled. Exceeded, often, but never equaled.
If you've got a criticism of my arguments, say it. Insults are just going to annoy me, and I get a lot ruder when I'm annoyed.

Wait... everything we've seen thus far has been you trying to be pleasant?!

I have many criticisms of your arguments. However, numerous others have made those same criticisms much more concisely than I would have, and you conspicuously ignored those criticisms while responding mostly with personal attacks and clumsy attempts at pivoting, so I decided to try something entirely different. Unlike most folks, I got an answer from you that was actually responsive to the things I actually said, so I'll count that as a win.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

50 - but it only happens when the deserters turn themselves in - since the Army has zero interest in retrieving said "informal quitters"

Corrected above. Since we are being precise about the novel, we should add that in the particular case being discussed, the offender had not turned himself in nor retrieved by the army - he was taken in by the police for an unrelated crime, and his desertion showed up during the investigation. Military crimes having supremacy over any civilian crimes in the political structure of the novel, the police turned him over to the military. Due to the severity of his (other) crimes, he did get hung.

GW

[littlebum2002]

It also discusses "striking a superior officer" (rather relevant to Andi's case) - 10, and expulsion, was what the person in training who did it got - but that was only because the guy admitted it, during trail for a lesser offence - he then got "field court martial" (with limited sentencing powers) rather than "general court martial".

Not only was Bandana struck, she was knocked unconscious for a few minutes. That means she had pretty severe head trauma, and may suffer from long-term brain injuries.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Not only was Bandana struck, she was knocked unconscious for a few minutes. That means she had pretty severe head trauma, and may suffer from long-term brain injuries.

No, this is still a 3.5 D&D world. A healing potion, and she'll be fine.

GW

[Peelee]

No, this is still a 3.5 D&D world. A healing potion, and she'll be fine.

GW

And even if it wasnt, stories often habe people fall unconscious with no health detriments for far longer than real-world biology would normally allow.

[littlebum2002]

And even if it wasnt, stories often habe people fall unconscious with no health detriments for far longer than real-world biology would normally allow.

Oh, I know, I was trying to poke fun at this trope. In Media, falling unconscious for an hour or so is a setback; in real life, it probably means extensive physical therapy.

Even in physical sports like boxing, a "knock-out" just means you can't get up in an allotted period of time. Rarely does it mean you're unconscious, because the fight is usually stopped before that point.

[hamishspence]

Marty McFly from the Back to the Future series is a notable example - three "hours-long unconsciousness time" hits in maybe 3 or 4 days.

[Samzat]

Oh, I know, I was trying to poke fun at this trope. In Media, falling unconscious for an hour or so is a setback; in real life, it probably means extensive physical therapy.

Even in physical sports like boxing, a "knock-out" just means you can't get up in an allotted period of time. Rarely does it mean you're unconscious, because the fight is usually stopped before that point.

I once walked off a head injury causing unconsciousness for an indeterminate amount of time (nobody else saw, because I was alone outside on a quiet day) and I think im fine. There wasnt a concussion or anything either. And even then id say my injury was more severe than a wrench to the head (I slipped on ice while I was sprinting). Maybe im just thick skulled

[pendell]

That doesn't work for everyone. Back in 1963 there was a train robbery in England. Being kindhearted fellows, they opted to knock the train driver unconscious with an iron bar instead of killing him.

But it doesn't work like it does in the movies. The driver in question, Jack Mills , suffered serious brain damage and never did fully recover from his injuries. He died a few years later.

Likewise in our NFL, Concussions have a tendancy to result in Chronic traumatic encephalopathy

Symptoms of CTE, which occur in four stages, generally appear 8–10 years after an athlete experiences repetitive mild traumatic brain injury.[2] First-stage symptoms include attention deficits as well as disorientation, dizziness, and headaches. Second-stage symptoms include memory loss, social instability, erratic behavior, and poor judgment. Third and fourth stages include progressive dementia, movement disorders, hypomimia, speech impediments, tremors, vertigo, deafness, and suicidality. Additional symptoms include dysarthria, dysphagia, and ocular abnormalities - such as ptosis.[3]

So even if there are no obvious immediate effects , a concussion can be severely debilitating decades down the line. It's no joke.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Peelee]

I once walked off a head injury causing unconsciousness for an indeterminate amount of time (nobody else saw, because I was alone outside on a quiet day) and I think im fine. There wasnt a concussion or anything either. And even then id say my injury was more severe than a wrench to the head (I slipped on ice while I was sprinting). Maybe im just thick skulled

That indeterminate amount of time was, in all likelihood, incredibly short.

[Throknor]

I once walked off a head injury causing unconsciousness for an indeterminate amount of time (nobody else saw, because I was alone outside on a quiet day) and I think im fine. There wasnt a concussion or anything either. And even then id say my injury was more severe than a wrench to the head (I slipped on ice while I was sprinting). Maybe im just thick skulled

It does seem to have interfered with your ability to type "I'm" though.

[Vinyadan]

We had discussed in a different thread the matter of pirates marooning crew members who stepped beyond the pale; marooning would fit your assessment like a glove.

Wait, that's why there is a scene in Asterix and the Cauldron where Obelix finds a Moorish pirate in a pot, and the pirate screams, "Go away, there's only maroons in here!"? ("marronnage" and "marrons").

[littlebum2002]

Next game I DM will have pirates who paint you maroon before marooning you.

[Peelee]

Wait, that's why there is a scene in Asterix and the Cauldron where Obelix finds a Moorish pirate in a pot, and the pirate screams, "Go away, there's only maroons in here!"? ("marronnage" and "marrons").

I really need to learn German so I can read all my Asterix and Obelix books.

[Quebbster]

I really need to learn German so I can read all my Asterix and Obelix books.

French is probably better since that is the original language. Lots of jokes get lost in translation.
I think the Swedish translation uses blueberry soup, which has nothing whatsoever to do with pirates...

[Peelee]

French is probably better since that is the original language. Lots of jokes get lost in translation.
I think the Swedish translation uses blueberry soup, which has nothing whatsoever to do with pirates...

Maybe, but Austrian family means I got the German books by hand-me-down.