Retiering the Classes: Bard, Factotum, Jester, and Savant

[Bucky]

Who gets better in-combat utility, a Jester or a Crusader?

[jywu98]

Seriously, what is it about the Factotum that brings out the most contentious parts of people? We've barely discussed the Bard, Savant, or Jester.

This is something that originated waaaay back when JaronK first tiered the Factotum and showed blatant class favoritism. Mind you, this doesn't only include the fact that it's the only class he devoted a whole paragraph to.

This was one of his responses:

It's funny how many people want the Rogue to go up a level, yet Rogues are clearly not nearly as strong as Beguilers or Factotums.

I actually like how clear the skillmonkeys are in the placement. Experts are the lowest skillmonkeys... remember, they can UMD just as well as Rogues can, and can use Iajuitsu Focus to get up to 9d6 extra damage, just 1d6 shy of a Rogue. Plus they can use Autohypnosis. However, like Rogues they only really shine if they can make good use of UMD... not always the case in all games (not all games have magic marts). Plus with fewer skill points, they're clearly one step down. And of course other than Iajuitsu Focus they're not exactly spectacular in combat.

Next up is the Rogue. 8+Int skill points, UMD and Diplomacy access, sneak attack. Sneak attack is fun and all, but let's face it, an extra 35 damage at level 20 isn't exactly impressive, and there's an awful lot of foes who are either immune to such damage, hard to sneak attack, or who would simply squish the d6 HD light armour MAD class if the Rogue dared to actually attack. This gets more and more true at higher levels. And yes, you can in theory get items that let you sneak attack certain enemies... maybe. Whether you can use Swift Action spells out of wands as less than a standard action is still debatable (the Rules Compendium may have overridden the DMG rules, or it may have just restated one part and not the other. It's hardly clear). Whether the DM in your game will make such wands available in sufficient quantities is another issue. Whether you get to know your enemies in advance enough to know which wands to get is likewise a question. And whether, after all that, the vampire you just sneak attacked just turns around and squishes you is yet another issue to consider. In the end, Rogues are a nice solid skillmonkey class with some combat potencial, but hardly top material. And this is coming from someone who's first love was Rogues. Heck, in Everquest I played a Rogue. In Oblivion I was a sneaky stealthy archer. In Shadowrun I was a stealthy sniper. But I do know their weaknesses, and they certainly have them. Plus there's the whole "spells trump skills" issue. Nice Open Lock you have... but the door is Arcane Locked. That's okay, the Wizard has Knock.

The scout is somewhere near the Rogue, but I have less experience there, so I'll keep commentary to a minimum on that one.

So then we move up a Tier, to Beguilers and Factotums. Both have spell access... the Beguiler has 9th level spells off a more limited list (but look, Timestop! Mirror Image! Glitterdust!), and the Factotum has the ability to cast Polymorph and Alter Self as spell like abilities. Plus, the Factotum can rock the Iajuitsu Focus and other bizarre skills if he wants. I mean really, Rogues are fun, but they're very clearly not at this level... not by a long shot. Optimize a Beguiler and you get Beguiler 14/Mindbender 1/Shadowcraft Mage 5. Let's see the Rogue build that gets anywhere near this. Optimize a Factotum and you get, well, Factotum 20 with lots of Fonts of Inspiration using FAR too many standard actions per round.

And the top level skill monkeys? Cloistered Cleric and Artificer. Clearly on top.

So, I know a lot of people want Rogues to go up a Tier, but I really don't think it's justified. Do they really think Rogues and Scouts belong with Factotums and Beguilers? Really?

Now, there are other classes I'm thinking of moving. Psionic Warriors to Tier 3 (some very good arguements were made in that direction). Duskblades to Tier 4 (they're on the low edge of 3). Hexblades to Tier 5 (they're on the low edge of Tier 4, but I have a tough time putting a class with Alter Self and Diplomacy in Tier 5). But Rogues? I'm just not seeing it.

JaronK

If this isn't blatant favoritism I don't know what is, clearly comparing an optimized factotum versus an unoptimized rogue (what kind of **** rogues gets only +35 dmg at lvl 20), when he himself stated this:

This system assumes that everything other than mechanics is totally equal. It's a ranking of the mechanical classes themselves, not of the players who use that class. As long as the players are of equal skill and optimize their characters roughly the same amount, it's fine. If one player optimizes a whole lot more than the other, that will shift their position on the chart.

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[Stealth Marmot]

It's one of the more controversial entries. The bard has a really well known and widely accepted tier, the jester gets the runoff from that, and I don't think anyone knows much about the savant or cares about how it's tiered. The factotum has a lot of complex argument juice. The situation isn't helped by the fact that JaronK seemed to show favoritism to the class.

Hey I love the class too and I still categorize it as Tier 4 for the most part. Making it Tier 3 really requires Knowledge Devotion and Font of Inspiration, and if you require a web supplement and a splatbook to make it work really well, it has problems.

[AnachroNinja]

Seriously, what is it about the Factotum that brings out the most contentious parts of people? We've barely discussed the Bard, Savant, or Jester.

Pretty much what eggy just said. Plus, I think people go based off anecdotal evidence from their own tables a lot on this one. I don't really see Factotums get used much. When I do, it tends to be "that guy" who always plays one and does everything possible to optimize it and makes it function more as a result of the heavy optimization... Or the guy who tries it because he heard a lot of cool stuff about it and tries to make a fairly balanced character and it ends up playing terribly.

I have to imagine a fair number of people have only really experienced one extreme or the other. I personally feel it's an overrated class that underperforms at anything but the highest optimization levels, but that's me. Others think it's normal to assume the Factotums doing nothing but selecting animate dead/planar binding/dominate every day to try to build an army of minions. Who can say who is right?


Edit: It's me. I'm right. Duh.

[jywu98]

Pretty much what eggy just said. Plus, I think people go based off anecdotal evidence from their own tables a lot on this one. I don't really see Factotums get used much. When I do, it tends to be "that guy" who always plays one and does everything possible to optimize it and makes it function more as a result of the heavy optimization... Or the guy who tries it because he heard a lot of cool stuff about it and tries to make a fairly balanced character and it ends up playing terribly.

I have to imagine a fair number of people have only really experienced one extreme or the other. I personally feel it's an overrated class that underperforms at anything but the highest optimization levels, but that's me. Others think it's normal to assume the Factotums doing nothing but selecting animate dead/planar binding/dominate every day to try to build an army of minions. Who can say who is right?


Edit: It's me. I'm right. Duh.

No but you're actually right though. I mean spell-wise due to the Factotum's delayed progression most spells that end up being cast are the fundamentally problematic ones (stuff like Polymorph, Planar Binding, etc.), as spells are basically have no chance of failure to achieve the specific outcome desired.

[Beheld]

Hey I love the class too and I still categorize it as Tier 4 for the most part. Making it Tier 3 really requires Knowledge Devotion and Font of Inspiration, and if you require a web supplement and a splatbook to make it work really well, it has problems.

I always love the version that goes:

"The Factotum is obscure, so if your DM let's you have it, he's going to let you dumpster dive every source ever, especially 3.0 ones, and all optional rules you want." followed by "Wow, your Rogue with a Ring of blink throwing acid flasks that is Core only is really out there, I'm not sure A DM would let you do that. Also, man, those are spells from the SpC in your wand, is your DM really going to let you use the SpC?"

Now aside from the fact that this makes no sense and is super hypocritical, a) It's probably false, DMs will usually let you use a class in an obscure book, but that mostly buys up your "budget" of getting them to read obscure crap. A lot of DMs are willing to work a little bit with you, it doesn't follow that they are willing to work infinitely with you if they are willing to work a little.

b) even if it was true, it would still be an argument against the factotum being placed higher on the tiers.

If you have some set of DMs that goes like this: [Core, Core+Completes+Races+SpC+MiC, All 3.5 Books, Everything ever]

The fact that the first two DMs don't allow factotums at all makes the Rogue infinitely better than Factotums. That rogues optimized to the same extent as factotums using all the other sources are also better than factotums means Rogues are just better than Factotums. Trying to claim that because Factotums who are worse than Rogues in the games they are being played in are better than the Rogues in some other game that wouldn't allow Factotums is a joke.

[Lazymancer]

I prefer to lurk, but I'm losing my patience.

Its been several weeks and hundreds of posts - and all this thread has to offer (beyond re-enactment of retarded JaronK-Trollman debate with quickrazor and flask rogue - both "arguments" made their appearance, yes) is 6 Int Factotum.


You are missing the very basic thing: there is no "Factotum". Not for most people who need Tier system to make some decision.

Even if Factotum as such has some utility in non-combat situation, the crucial factor (game-changing difference, yes) is the amount of Inspiration Factotum can burn. There is FoI Factotum with 16+ Int and flaws to get 3-4 FoI at first level, and Pure Factotum - without flaws and, consequently, with extremely limited IP pool that does not allow it to contribute to combat (even if one or two FoI were taken).

For all intents and purposes, Pure Factotum and FoI-Factotum are two different classes. Attempt to lump both together make no sense from any point, except for purely theoretical. Their difference is not one of optimization: all FoI Factotum needs to do, is to take lots of FoI. And that's it. No system mastery necessary. The difference is that both web-content and Unearthed Arcana are necessary for FoI Factotum to exist. It does not follow from the Dungeonscape alone.

In my opinion FoI Factotum is Tier 3 (mid-to-low; campaign-dependent), while Pure Factotum is clearly Tier 4 (if not 5).

Spoiler: some notes on FoI Factotum build

Show

Just so that we are absolutely clear: FoI Factotum is Int-SAD (at least 16, preferably 18 or 20), and has four FoI (plus Knowledge Devotion) taken as first five feats. If started with 16 Int and can't take fourth FoI immediately, it is taken at 6th level (18 Int achieved via middle-age and grabbing +1 Int from 4th level).

There is no place for Manyshot feat chain or whatever, since Darkstalker has to be taken at or before level 9. Before level 9 some leeway is allowed only for Human bonus feat - to be used for FMI/Item Familiar/Imperious Command/Keen Intellect/…

You can't get 3 feats for Manyshot by level 8. Nor by level 9. Arguably by level 15, when you are better off taking Leadership or Dragon Cohort.

Example builds:
Human, pointbuy 25: Str 12, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 17, Wis 8, Cha 8
1) FoI x3, (something)
3) Knowledge Devotion
6) FoI #4
9) Darkstalker
12/15/18) FoI #5, (something)

Human, pointbuy 25: Str 11, Dex 11, Con 11, Int 18, Wis 8, Cha 8
Middle-aged, 4th level: Str 10, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 20, Wis 9, Cha 9
1) FoI x4
3) Knowledge Devotion
6) FoI #5
9) Darkstalker
12/15/18) (something)

P.s. I'm not considering Quickrazor nonsense or stockpiling IPs as something that needs to be discussed - neither is going to be allowed by any sane GM.

Rationale: FoI Factotum is Tier 3, because it is good at following assassin trope - killing things in one shot/strike (this meshes well with non-gnome Iaijustsu Focus, btw).

Factotum is one round fighter.

For people who think the Factotum is Tier Three, what do you see a Factotum doing in combat if he's not allowed to take Iajutsu Focus?

Everyone else seams to be arguing these theoretical builds that can do anything, and that's great but most of it seems to rely on stuff they get pretty late. My question is what do you do until then?

Ambushes.

But even if the rest of the party considers Leeroy Jenkins tactics to be sound and GM prefers railroady battles with party being forced to fight Bad Guys in 30x40 room with no exit, FoI Factotum still can do something useful.

Early levels (1-7):
Knowledge Devotion and Cunning Insight should add +6-10 to both attack and damage for first 5-7 strikes (12-14 IP). I'd say this makes FoI Factotum superior to Rogue combat-wise, since his regular bonus damage works over any distance and on any opponent, while being more reliable.

Additionally, feinting and flanking (or initiative - with Brains over Brawn) allow consistent killing blows with Cunning Strike nova at 4th level: +11d6 sneak attack damage, in addition to +6-10 to attack and damage.

FoI Factotum really shines, if you get to be clever: have hit-and-run tactics, retreating to lure enemy into ambush, and so on. For example, with True Strike and Sniper's Shot (spells are Core/SpC; wands cost just 750 gp and should be obtainable at 4th level - we aren't talking Iaijutsu levels of obscurity) FoI Factotum can kill things that are over 1,000 feet away.


On the other hand, Pure Factotum (T4) doesn't have enough juice to put his key combat abilities (Cunning Insight/Strike) to use. All Inspiration will be spent to add Int to damage: three times per combat at 4th level. That's 9-15 bonus damage in total and no boosters to attack rolls. As a comparison, Rogue of this level gets 14 bonus damage from 2 sneak attacks and can go all day long. I.e. Rogue is clearly superior to Pure Factotum combat-wise.

If Rogue is T4 (which is a correct estimation, IMO) so should be Pure Factotum.

[Stealth Marmot]

Pretty much what eggy just said. Plus, I think people go based off anecdotal evidence from their own tables a lot on this one. I don't really see Factotums get used much. When I do, it tends to be "that guy" who always plays one and does everything possible to optimize it and makes it function more as a result of the heavy optimization... Or the guy who tries it because he heard a lot of cool stuff about it and tries to make a fairly balanced character and it ends up playing terribly.

I have to imagine a fair number of people have only really experienced one extreme or the other. I personally feel it's an overrated class that underperforms at anything but the highest optimization levels, but that's me. Others think it's normal to assume the Factotums doing nothing but selecting animate dead/planar binding/dominate every day to try to build an army of minions. Who can say who is right?


Edit: It's me. I'm right. Duh.

I think the problem isn't really JaronK's favoritism of Factotums, but his tendency to assume that Iajuitsu Focus is standard or would even be allowed in most games considering it's 3.0. He seems to bring it up with other classes too. i think if it was off the table entirely he might re-evaluate. That said, he also seems to bring up things like polymorph which a Factotums would get only at 10th level and beyond (and once a day at that), and Alter Self is useful but only a UMD and a scroll away from out of combat uses and only okay in combat. Also he undersells the rogues sneak attack when it can be used on iterative attacks and things like rapid shot, haste, and dual wielding. Rogues last and can potentially scale better than factotums in sheer damage, Factotums only turn into hell machines with UMD and loads of standard actions.

I'm going to be playing a Factotum starting Saturday, so I'll report in on the success or failure of it in pragmatic circumstances. Granted mine will be exceptional due to lucky stats (all 14 or higher, most 15 or higher, INT 18), and I'm using some pretty basic optimization (Improved trip and Knowledge devotion) but I will specifically not be using Iajuitsu Focus, which seems to be the main sticking point of it being a higher tier class, so we will see. I'll be playing a Human Factotum alongside a Human Rogue, so it will be pretty apples to apples.

[eggynack]

@Lazymancer: It's an interesting argument. Considering the FoI factotum separately, as we would for an ACF or something, could make sense. However, I'm not entirely sure of two things. First, that people generally think that the normal factotum is tier four. I don't think it necessarily is, though it could be. Second, that, if the base factotum is tier four, then the FoI factotum is necessarily tier three. I've seen some counterarguments to the claim that it's this influential. If most agree with that contention, that this class very likely has two separate tierings premised on the use of FoI or lack thereof, then we probably should split. Interested in hearing input on that one.

[Stealth Marmot]

@Lazymancer: It's an interesting argument. Considering the FoI factotum separately, as we would for an ACF or something, could make sense. However, I'm not entirely sure of two things. First, that people generally think that the normal factotum is tier four. I don't think it necessarily is, though it could be. Second, that, if the base factotum is tier four, then the FoI factotum is necessarily tier three. I've seen some counterarguments to the claim that it's this influential. If most agree with that contention, that this class very likely has two separate tierings premised on the use of FoI or lack thereof, then we probably should split. Interested in hearing input on that one.

I agree with the concept of tiering the Factotum based on access to FoI.

[eggynack]

I agree with the concept of tiering the Factotum based on access to FoI.

Actually, thinking on it, one complicating issue here is that the factotum, as it stands, is already tier three in vote-terms. So, like, either we retroactively make this into the FoI factotum and see if the tier four voters want to switch, or we call it the FoI-less factotum and see if the tier three voters want to switch. I suppose there's always the third option of scrapping this vote and having two more factotum entries in other threads, but that sounds awful. None of these options are great. Not impossible, but it's a problem.

[jywu98]

It's amusing that someone that considers flask rogues and quickrazors broken does the bull**** IP stacking interpretation where somehow a level 4 factotum can get 12 IP. Exactly how are the former more retarded than the latter? At least the former has rules backing to support it.

[Lans]

Polymorphing into a hydra at level 11 is not very good from what I can tell, but I didn't think to factor in knowledge devotion. If you combo it with wraith strike and power attack it can kill a few enemies who don't have good touch ACs.

Because I've been trying to suggest a method to make the tier system something that is more tangible? I mean I don't believe in it personally but you schmucks do so the least I could do is suggest ways of improving it, right?

Oh wait- it's GitP, the hugbox forum! If you disagree, just get out of the thread!

Have you checked this out?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...ystem-Expanded

[Lazymancer]

Actually, thinking on it, one complicating issue here is that the factotum, as it stands, is already tier three in vote-terms. So, like, either we retroactively make this into the FoI factotum and see if the tier four voters want to switch, or we call it the FoI-less factotum and see if the tier three voters want to switch. I suppose there's always the third option of scrapping this vote and having two more factotum entries in other threads, but that sounds awful. None of these options are great. Not impossible, but it's a problem.

I'd say it makes more sense to call everyone and ask if they support splitting Factotum in flawed FoI-Factotum and FoI-less Factotum.

Apologies for not appearing sooner.

It's amusing that someone that considers flask rogues and quickrazors broken does the bull**** IP stacking interpretation where somehow a level 4 factotum can get 12 IP. Exactly how are the former more retarded than the latter? At least the former has rules backing to support it.

Not broken but inapplicable in actual game. It's a common houserule to rule out sneak attacks working via splash damage (IIRC it even got implemented in Pathfinder). Quickrazors and Iaijutsu Focus has even less of a chance being allowed.

On the other hand, stacking of Font of Inspiration is a common interpretation. Also it's 13 IP at 4th level (3 base +10 from 4 FoI). Maximum at 4th level would be 18 IP, if you go for Old Age (20 Int) and take 5th FoI at 3rd level instead of Knowledge Devotion - but that's a bit excessive, imo.

[Stealth Marmot]

On the other hand, stacking of Font of Inspiration is a common interpretation. Also it's 13 IP at 4th level (3 base +10 from 4 FoI). Maximum at 4th level would be 18 IP, if you go for Old Age (20 Int) and take 5th FoI at 3rd level instead of Knowledge Devotion - but that's a bit excessive, imo.

According to someone on these forums, your average combat will last 5 rounds. Let's assume that during those 5 rounds, the Factotum attacks 5 times, hits 3 times, is attacked 4 times, and has to make 1 saving throw. Does that sound reasonable for a decently low level character?

Grand total, to add his INT bonus to everything he would need 13 Inspiration points. So yeah, 18 is excessive...especially considering that you appear to be dipping into a lot of flaws for the extra feats at low levels. Granted you COULD use the excess inspiration for Cunning Strike, but that's overkill for most things you will be facing and not always viable.

[Beheld]

Not broken but inapplicable in actual game. It's a common houserule to rule out sneak attacks working via splash damage (IIRC it even got implemented in Pathfinder). Quickrazors and Iaijutsu Focus has even less of a chance being allowed.

I don't think that houserule is anywhere near as common as you think it is. Or even if it, "20% of games houserule this" does not inevitably lead to "It shouldn't be considered ever."

[jywu98]

I'd say it makes more sense to call everyone and ask if they support splitting Factotum in flawed FoI-Factotum and FoI-less Factotum.

Apologies for not appearing sooner.


Not broken but inapplicable in actual game. It's a common houserule to rule out sneak attacks working via splash damage (IIRC it even got implemented in Pathfinder). Quickrazors and Iaijutsu Focus has even less of a chance being allowed.

On the other hand, stacking of Font of Inspiration is a common interpretation. Also it's 13 IP at 4th level (3 base +10 from 4 FoI). Maximum at 4th level would be 18 IP, if you go for Old Age (20 Int) and take 5th FoI at 3rd level instead of Knowledge Devotion - but that's a bit excessive, imo.

I mean sure, if you want to blatantly break rules, your special snowflake factotum can be tier 1 for all I care. Really nothing much else to say, lmao. So now the tier system does not only take into account different optimization levels, sourcebook obscurity, a whole range of undefined problems, and different class levels, but now houserules as well? Wow might as not call it a tier system anymore, the FGC will probably puke their guts out. A name like Lazymancer's tier system for classes seems apt, you even got the long ass (and even more wrong) paragraph about the factotum to fit in!

[Troacctid]

Needing to do the SGT with every class is a misconception, as in many cases it is obvious and thus you can roughly gauge a class by comparing it to a class that fulfils the same niches. For example, the favored soul covers around the same roles as a cleric, and can do a specific role almost as well as a cleric can. However, due to the ridiculous limited spell list, it can't cover as many roles as the cleric can at one time. Ergo, he'll have difficulty in some problems that a cleric can easily resolve and hence he'll incur a smaller "winrate" in the SGT. Also the SGT is a thought experiment, and hence not a lot of time is needed to be spent on each scenario. The only gray area is character building, but this is the same problem any tier system faces so really there's nothing new about that.

Actually, it's likely for the Cleric to have about as many spells prepared at a time as the Favored Soul has spells known. Favored Spells have a lot of spells known.

Who gets better in-combat utility, a Jester or a Crusader?

It depends how you define utility, but I would argue Crusader is more useful overall.

I always love the version that goes:

"The Factotum is obscure, so if your DM let's you have it, he's going to let you dumpster dive every source ever, especially 3.0 ones, and all optional rules you want." followed by "Wow, your Rogue with a Ring of blink throwing acid flasks that is Core only is really out there, I'm not sure A DM would let you do that. Also, man, those are spells from the SpC in your wand, is your DM really going to let you use the SpC?"

Now aside from the fact that this makes no sense and is super hypocritical, a) It's probably false, DMs will usually let you use a class in an obscure book, but that mostly buys up your "budget" of getting them to read obscure crap. A lot of DMs are willing to work a little bit with you, it doesn't follow that they are willing to work infinitely with you if they are willing to work a little.

b) even if it was true, it would still be an argument against the factotum being placed higher on the tiers.

If you have some set of DMs that goes like this: [Core, Core+Completes+Races+SpC+MiC, All 3.5 Books, Everything ever]

The fact that the first two DMs don't allow factotums at all makes the Rogue infinitely better than Factotums. That rogues optimized to the same extent as factotums using all the other sources are also better than factotums means Rogues are just better than Factotums. Trying to claim that because Factotums who are worse than Rogues in the games they are being played in are better than the Rogues in some other game that wouldn't allow Factotums is a joke.

The real problem with the Ring of Blink is that it's exorbitantly expensive enough that you're not likely to get it before, like, 10th level.

[Jopustopin]

So right now Factotum is voted as the worst class in tier 3. I don't know why everyone is up in arms about it.

[Bucky]

I'm trying to build a case on Jester being worse than Factotum by comparing Jester to the ToB classes, which some of us think are T4 or marginal T3.

But most of you don't seem interested in discussing Jesters.

[Soranar]

A jester can cast grease, color spray, charm person, silent image, mirror image, alter self, haste and polymorph. So, at the very least, it has decent spells from level 1 to 4.

Level 5 is a bit weaker but level 6 gets etheral jaunt, otto irresistible dance and animate objects.

Is it weaker than a bard? Sure, the bard has more splat support and inspire courage.

Is it still tier 3? Definitely. It's a charisma based caster with decent skills and decent spells.

In combat I find it difficult to compare a spellcaster to a crusader, they bring something completely different to the table. One is mostly a support character while the other is a frontliner.

[Stealth Marmot]

The real problem with the Ring of Blink is that it's exorbitantly expensive enough that you're not likely to get it before, like, 10th level.

Ring of Blinking from the SRD is 27,000 last I checked. That is literally the entire wealth of an 8th level character (using WBL) and over half the wealth of a 10th level character.

Anyway, another problem with the ring of blinking is that you also gain a 20% miss chance on your attacks while blinking.

[eggynack]

I'd say it makes more sense to call everyone and ask if they support splitting Factotum in flawed FoI-Factotum and FoI-less Factotum.

Yeah, going by vote totals, it'd be logical to call this FoI factotum and then PM the eleven people that voted tier four. Not entirely sure if the split is the direction we're going, but it shouldn't be too problematic of a way to go.

Edit: Just remembered that you can send a PM to multiple people at once. Should cut down on the effort involved quite a lot. Wondering if there's any other input, positive or negative, on the plan.

[Troacctid]

I'm trying to build a case on Jester being worse than Factotum by comparing Jester to the ToB classes, which some of us think are T4 or marginal T3.

But most of you don't seem interested in discussing Jesters.

I think Crusader and Warblade are quite strong and definitely well deserving of T3. Definitely stronger than Factotum. Even stronger than Bards at some level ranges and/or optimization grades.

Yeah, going by vote totals, it'd be logical to call this FoI factotum and then PM the eleven people that voted tier four. Not entirely sure if the split is the direction we're going, but it shouldn't be too problematic of a way to go.

Disagree with splitting. We're ranking classes, not builds. I could show you plenty of builds that would raise a class by a full tier or more. It's just not practical to vote on them all. I think it's outside the scope of this project.

[Jopustopin]

Disagree with splitting. We're ranking classes, not builds.

There is literally one build that pushes the Factotum up a tier. So what? That's the same reason I voted fighter as tier 5. There is like one build that pushes him to tier 4 (in my opinion) and that's just called so what. I vote to keep them together and move on.

[AnachroNinja]

There is literally one build that pushes the Factotum up a tier. So what? That's the same reason I voted fighter as tier 5. There is like one build that pushes him to tier 4 (in my opinion) and that's just called so what. I vote to keep them together and move on.

Except it doesn't, it's still bad.

[Beheld]

The real problem with the Ring of Blink is that it's exorbitantly expensive enough that you're not likely to get it before, like, 10th level.

You can buy one at 9th level without crafting. I haven't seen a single person talk about Factotums without talking about extra actions. Yeah, you can't be a blink rogue at the levels of Color Spray and Glitterdust, but it's equally as out of range as the always mentioned standard actoins, and comes way before the always mentioned 47 times per post polymorph once a day at level 11.

Anyway, another problem with the ring of blinking is that you also gain a 20% miss chance on your attacks while blinking.

Not necessarily. Items that leave your possession stop benefiting from spells that effect you and attended objects. Ranged attacks while blinking probably don't have a miss chance. It's an argument people have when this comes up though, so it just depends on how your DM rules it.

[eggynack]

Disagree with splitting. We're ranking classes, not builds. I could show you plenty of builds that would raise a class by a full tier or more. It's just not practical to vote on them all. I think it's outside the scope of this project.

It's not about ranking a specific build. It's about ranking the class specifically where this feat either is or isn't allowed. Same as ACFs. Only complication I see is that you can take the feat over and over again, meaning it might not be as clear cut of an issue what the endstate of this character looks like. Either way, the underlying construction would be absolutely no FoI for one thread, and one or more FoI in the other. Probably a bunch of them.

[Stealth Marmot]

Disagree with splitting. We're ranking classes, not builds. I could show you plenty of builds that would raise a class by a full tier or more. It's just not practical to vote on them all. I think it's outside the scope of this project.

This isn't a build, this is access to a very specific feat designed solely for this singular class and was only supplied via web supplement that affects the ability of the class to function at an entirely different tier.

The important point is underlined. Basically because it was created ONLY for the Factotum and is a supplement to the book it is included in, it could be considered part and parcel of the class itself.

[Dondasch]

Alright, here's a simple trick a sorcerer can't pull off easily at level 11, and even my idiot factotum Orc can do it

-Cast shivering touch (lasts 11 rounds), it's a level 3 spells that offers no save and you bypass the SR with cunning breach, it does 3d6 DEX damage per hit, you get 2 iteratives at level 11 so , on average, you deal 21 DEX damage per round. Considering it's a touch attack I'm fairly confident it'll hit just about anything.

Alright, so first off, Shivering Touch doesn't work that way. You get one hit/cast, and 1 cast/day. It's only an encounter ender against big brutes, and it's melee, so it only hits things you can get into melee with. Big brutes are not something you want to get into melee with.

How many dragons do you know that can survive that kind of abuse?

In core, barring "stay out of reach/buff myself with Sorcerer and Cleric casting?" At least two.

And sure, a factotum can't outcast a sorcerer but the point of this was to compare a factotum to a rogue

Nope, the point is to determine the merit of the Factotum as a class. For casting, the sorcerer casting is relevant because it tells you when a given level of spells "should" become available (technically a level earlier with Wizard, but I thought I'd show some mercy).
The Factotum trails significantly in spell access, meaning most spells are obsolete by the time it gets them.

And you can do the same thing with enervation.

1d4 negative levels is okay, but it's still stale at 10th level.

A rogue doesn't get a ''I win an encounter by myself'' button, not even once a day. A Factotum gets several.

I still haven't seen any win buttons, besides gamebreakers like Planar Binding. And we're discounting gamebreakers here, remember?

And here's the line about reaching vital organs from the SRD :

A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

So, my question still stands: What creatures are too big to Sneak Attack, by RAW?

And you're right, a mounted character needs a mount. That's why a mounted factotum build would either take the wild cohort feat or obtain familiar+ improved familiar. Personally I prefer using a strongheart halfling on a riding dog using wild cohort, it fits flavorwise and you get your INT bonus to ride on top of everything else.

And a halfling on a medium mount is not something that's unheard of is it?

Again, where are all these feats coming from? You need feats for mounted combat, and feats for a mount, plus there are Fonts you could be taking.

And lets talk about the factotum archer a little more, I think people really tend to underestimate that guy

You need point blank shot, rapid shot,manyshot and knowledge devotion but you can't take manyshot until level 9 anyway so you have no real problem here progression wise but yeah, you didn't take font of inspiration once with that build.

by level 8 you can give yourself extra rounds of manyshot

by level 11 you can use cunning breach to ignore DR for a round

Archery wise, your factotum is probably doing more damage per round than a fighter archer which, arccording to the archery handbook's math, outdamages a swift hunter.

And when this guy is really in trouble, he can ignore DR, which is what archers have problem with anyway.

People have addressed you claiming you can get extra rounds of Manyshot before even taking Manyshot. Even then, you're pulling that off 1, maybe 2 times a combat, because you don'y have Fonts, and you run out of Inspiration for other uses.

Reasonable stuff

I think by this point, we're largely quibbling over how much of a factor certain things are. Want to agree to disagree?



On splitting Factotum: I'm against it.
General thoughts: Factotum's biggest problem (after bad writing) is being a jack of all trades. The way it's written, it has to sink a good deal of resources into one thing, leaving it sub-par in many other areas. Also, it needs a bunch of feats and doesn't get any from the class, so the main strategies take a while to come online.
Also, on spells: Does anyone else notice how, nine times out of ten, the suggested spells for Factotum are ones widely regarded as unbalanced? I think it really supports my point about Factotum "casting" being terrible if it needs broken things to be effective.