Is Tomato A Fruit Or Vegetable?

[Marillion]

Another interesting oddity is that almonds aren't nuts but the seeds of a plant in the same genus as peaches and apricots (and cherries). Inside the cores of peaches and apricots there's a seed just like in an almond, but they are poisonous when eaten.

That doesn't seem quite right to me. I've read more than one recipe that called specifically for the seeds within the pit of stone fruits. Perhaps they're poisonous in the same way that apple seeds contain cyanide; technically yes, but you'd have to eat an extraordinary amount to actually suffer any ill effects?

[Trekkin]

That doesn't seem quite right to me. I've read more than one recipe that called specifically for the seeds within the pit of stone fruits. Perhaps they're poisonous in the same way that apple seeds contain cyanide; technically yes, but you'd have to eat an extraordinary amount to actually suffer any ill effects?

This is correct. Furthermore, they are poisonous in exactly the same way: they contain amygdalin. I believe the LD50 is somewhere around 3/4ths of a peach pit per kilo, though.

[Stryyke]

Seeds are inside. It's a fruit. Remember fruit isn't defined by taste or consistency. Science cannot differentiate based on subjective qualities. All scientific classifications are determined by strictly objective qualities.

[Aedilred]

Seeds are inside. It's a fruit. Remember fruit isn't defined by taste or consistency. Science cannot differentiate based on subjective qualities. All scientific classifications are determined by strictly objective qualities.

Doesn't quantum theory challenge the notion of strict objectivity? And I think it's been demonstrated numerous times throughout history that science can be affected by subjective bias of the scientists concerned.

In any case, given that "vegetable" is not a scientific category, I think that approaching this question purely from a scientific perspective is not going to answer it satisfactorily, and is also missing the point.

[Dorath]

Not sure what Rome has to do with it.

To expand on the above. The early American Settlers wouldn't eat the tomato (that looked nothing like they do today) and the original ketchup was made out of mushroom.

The British added mushrooms to the original spiced pickled fish recipe, eventually replacing the fish entirely.

[veti]

Go to a better doctor?

Sensitivity is not allergy. I don't see anything wrong with the advice "if it hurts, don't do it".

No matter what it is, it's not because Bell Peppers are spicy. It's something with your biology.

They are, in fact, spicy, just not very spicy. Capsaicin is not the only thing that produces that effect. But some people - including most babies, for a start - have extremely sensitive mouths. Try feeding bell peppers to a kindergarten group, and chances are quite a few of them will complain that it's "too spicy".

The Wikipedia page even says, that's why they're called "peppers". The first Europeans to taste them definitely thought they were spicy.

[lio45]

Well...Rome's a pretty small country. The smallest actually. Do you mean Italy?

Nah, it was a pretty big country (much bigger than Italy); whenever someone uses it in that context, it basically always means this (exact borders may vary, of course) :

[lio45]

Doesn't quantum theory challenge the notion of strict objectivity?

Not in that sense, no.

(However, I'll point out that something like "consistency" can be scientifically defined and discussed using metrics like density, viscosity, etc. "Taste", obviously, not so much, although you can still discuss factual metrics like acidity, sweetness, etc. "Maple syrup is sweet" is not a subjective statement.)

[Razade]

Sensitivity is not allergy. I don't see anything wrong with the advice "if it hurts, don't do it".

Except the problem sounds exactly like an allergy.

They are, in fact, spicy, just not very spicy. Capsaicin is not the only thing that produces that effect. But some people - including most babies, for a start - have extremely sensitive mouths. Try feeding bell peppers to a kindergarten group, and chances are quite a few of them will complain that it's "too spicy".

I'm aware. I pointed out several things that also give a "spice". Thing is, Bell Peppers don't have any compounds that invoke an irritant response in humans.

The Wikipedia page even says, that's why they're called "peppers". The first Europeans to taste them definitely thought they were spicy.

Wikipedia should also note, and probably doesn't, that the peppers that the first Europeans ate were not the same as a modern Bell Pepper. In fact, they were probably not even the same genus of pepper at all. Also since you like to quote wikipedia you should probably read down along the page where it says

The bell pepper is the only member of the Capsicum genus that does not produce capsaicin,[6] a lipophilic chemical that can cause a strong burning sensation when it comes in contact with mucous membranes. The lack of capsaicin in bell peppers is due to a recessive form of a gene that eliminates capsaicin and, consequently, the "hot" taste usually associated with the rest of the Capsicum genus.

Nah, it was a pretty big country (much bigger than Italy); whenever someone uses it in that context, it basically always means this (exact borders may vary, of course) :

Yeah. Was is the operative word. It isn't anymore. And when it was that large, they'd never heard of a tomato. In fact, Rome wasn't a country at all when the tomato came to Europe.

[lio45]

Yeah. Was is the operative word. It isn't anymore. And when it was that large, they'd never heard of a tomato.

I only skimmed the thread -- did someone actually suggest Ancient Romans were eating tomatoes?!? I just replied to you, 'cause I personally find it obvious what someone normally means when they say that.

[Razade]

I only skimmed the thread -- did someone actually suggest Ancient Romans were eating tomatoes?!? I just replied to you, 'cause I personally find it obvious what someone normally means when they say that.

I mean, the context was in the part I quoted.

[sktarq]

Except the problem sounds exactly like an allergy.

The issue I think was that it was non an immune system response which is to many a requirement for an allergy.

Yeah. Was is the operative word. It isn't anymore. And when it was that large, they'd never heard of a tomato. In fact, Rome wasn't a country at all when the tomato came to Europe.

Well the Papal States being "Rome" is a thing. It was a pretty normal way to refer to the city-state. It is generally the City and immediate region and was independent in 1548. Was it the empire. . . hell no.

[Razade]

Well the Papal States being "Rome" is a thing. It was a pretty normal way to refer to the city-state. It is generally the City and immediate region and was independent in 1548. Was it the empire. . . hell no.

Sure, we can quibble. Rater hasn't actually responded with what they meant however. People don't generally use "Rome" to mean the papacy or the city state or the current country. They usually mean the Empire. Which is why I was asking and then added "Did you mean Italy" because as been pointed out. The Roman Empire didn't have a clue the Tomato even existed, let alone the lands they came from.

[veti]

I'm aware. I pointed out several things that also give a "spice". Thing is, Bell Peppers don't have any compounds that invoke an irritant response in humans.

Tell that to the aforementioned kindergartners. They're definitely humans, and they definitely get an irritant response.

Come to think of it, if I unwarily rub my eyes after cutting a pepper, they get pretty damn' irritated too.

Also since you like to quote wikipedia you should probably read down along the page where it says

Sweet pepper cultivars produce non pungent capsaicinoids,[8] with many physiological effects similar to the more pungent sister compound capsaican.

Fixed that for you.

[Razade]

Tell that to the aforementioned kindergartners. They're definitely humans, and they definitely get an irritant response.

Come to think of it, if I unwarily rub my eyes after cutting a pepper, they get pretty damn' irritated too.

Not Bell Peppers they don't.

Fixed that for you.

Except you left out the operative bit before hand.

This recessive gene is overwritten in the Mexibelle pepper, a hybrid variety of bell pepper that produces small amounts of capsaicin (and is thus mildly pungent)

Which is what they're talking about. Also if you follow the link (the number 8) they're specifically talking about Capsiates which ALSO aren't in Bell Peppers.

[Xyril]

Doesn't quantum theory challenge the notion of strict objectivity? And I think it's been demonstrated numerous times throughout history that science can be affected by subjective bias of the scientists concerned.

You seem to be conflating science and scientists. Scientists should strive towards strict objectivity, but they're only human, and also there are more than a few people who don't even try for objectivity, who are conduct scientific inquiry and research, and who even make important discoveries once in a while. Science is about objectivity, or rather it might be more accurate to say that science is a systematic approach to help a bunch of inherently subjective humans strive towards the discovery of objective facts.

That is why science is concerned about quantifiable measurements and objective criteria. In science, it is useful to define a certain thing as a fruit because doing so is helpful in trying to understand all those things that grow fruit. In doing so, it is useful to have an objective scientific definition of fruit such that a plant part can be objectively a fruit or not a fruit, even if it is possible for a very biased individual to make the wrong determination about whether a particular plant part is a fruit. Acknowledging that individuals aren't naturally objective doesn't mean you give up trying.

The non-scientific definition of fruit is also a useful way to look a plant parts--if you see a plant part that you've never encountered before, and someone tells you it's a (culinary) fruit, then you have a rough idea of how to use it as a food item. However, it's also an inherently subjective definition that can vary between cultures.

[aloysius]

If it has seeds, it's a fruit. so cucumbers tomatoes etc all fruit