James Bond Werewolf: Day 8

[Mrs McGinty]

Mrs McGinty, you should reveal the rest of your role. Currently all you've told us is that if you're scried as a wolf we should totally believe you that you're not a wolf.

I've already had this discussion with Bobb.

Revealing immediately is not the best town move in my estimation, but I will reveal with plenty of time to spare.

If that was an acceptable argument to not lynch you, town would never lynch any wolves. For the record, I think you're probably town and telling the truth but it's just too dangerous a precedent to set to allow you to live with just saying that.

Voting to lynch someone you think is town because of the precedent?

Okay, now this is scummy.

[AvatarVecna]

Just in case you're serious, 'miller' is a generic title for a town role that scans as scum. It's not my actual role name.

And how am I scummy?

"I'm claiming a town role, but anybody scanning me will get a scum result. Just letting you guys know that now." Even if we ignore that most scries (at least on this site) are generally "specific role" rather than "allegiance" - hence why nobody is familiar with the miller role here (because it doesn't make sense with the way we do scries) - claiming that scries on you are a waste of time gives town no information even if we scry you, which is decidedly anti-town. If you're actually a miller (unlikely, to say the least), announcing it this way gives more information to the wolves than the town; if you're a wolf, or townie who's not the miller, claiming miller just sows confusion and misinformation, which helps the wolves more than the town. The best case scenario is that you're telling the unvarnished truth Day 1 for no apparent reason in the worst possible manner. The worst case scenario is that you're a wolf attempting a gambit they haven't thought through all that much. The most likely scenario is that you're a townie who's just being anti-town for the sake of looking like you're pulling a smart gambit when you're not.

I'm not going to get scanned now, though.

Which makes your claim even more pointless than it already was.

And as I indicated in the first place, if I'm going to be lynched, it's most likely to be today, which would be much less harmful than later on when there will be more evidence by which to finger the actual villains.

Ignoring the claim itself, do you think I look scummy, Murska?

Nobody looks particularly scummy at this point in the game, that's the big problem with voting D1. Generally, rule of thumb has been to get rid of somebody who's either scum, or unhelpful townie, because after wolves townies who aren't helping are the biggest problem town faces. I've generally been on the fence on whether inactive townies are less helpful than misinformative townies, but I don't think people would care if our D1 random got rid of somebody who isn't particularly helpful.

EDIT: Yeah, best to just change my vote. Mrs McGinty.

[Mrs McGinty]

I wasn't trying to pull any kind of gambit.

My thought was simply to prevent the town from wasting valuble scries or post-D1 lynches, or in the worst case scenario from putting a seer at risk when revealing a red scan on me.

That and giving people something to talk about.

[Bobb]

Top three wagons as of now:

6 Mrs McGinty: GeneralH, snerk, Kish, Murska, Ramsus/Avatarvecna
4 Duck999: Lex-Kat/fuzzysora/Indarra/Tom the Mime
3 Tom the Mime: Bobb, Thematthew, Xhirilri

- - - Updated - - -

Ignoring the claim itself, (almost every single post of mine on this, the day of the beginning of the game, and the reason you think I look scummy) do you think I look scummy, Murska?

Might as well ask him if he thinks the sky looks sunny without the use of his eyes.

[Mrs McGinty]

I'm a little bothered by the way AvatarVecna has responded.

This part about how making that claim means I'm a terrible townie is very similar to what I've seen from scum in similar situations in the past.

And that's a whole lot of text, saying a whole lot about the general idea of a miller claim but not much about my case in particular, to end up with 'he's probably town, but let's lynch him anyway'.

- - - Updated - - -

On reactions so far, Kish and Bobb look townier, while Ramsus and AV look scummier.

[Bobb]

This part about how making that claim means I'm a terrible townie is very similar to what I've seen from scum in similar situations in the past.

Last time I heard this spiel it was a wolf talking about a townie.


Chessmate.




Those arguments are stupid.

[Mrs McGinty]

Last time I heard this spiel it was a wolf talking about a townie.

Chessmate.

Those arguments are stupid.

A fair point, but it's a genuine observation.

If I'm getting lynched today, I want at least to leave some reads.

[AvatarVecna]

I'm a little bothered by the way AvatarVecna has responded.

This part about how making that claim means I'm a terrible townie is very similar to what I've seen from scum in similar situations in the past.

And that's a whole lot of text, saying a whole lot about the general idea of a miller claim but not much about my case in particular, to end up with 'he's probably town, but let's lynch him anyway'.

- - - Updated - - -

On reactions so far, Kish and Bobb look townier, while Ramsus and AV look scummier.

Even ignoring hiw the miller isn't a role that I've seen in the entire time I've been playing WW on this site (making its existence and inclusion in this game surprising and unlikely), saying "I'm townie, but if you try and scry me it'll say I'm scum" is super-scummy. That simple enough for for you to understand?

At best, you're an honest villager who went about claiming their weird role that's never been seen before in the worst possible way. Yes, the best case scenario is that you're incomptetent. The worst case scenario is that your unhelpfulness is deliberate, meaning you're either a scumm wolf who should be lunched, or the absolute worst kind of townie. It doesn't help that you haven't been able to give an actually good reason for your claim, and that you declare the people who call you out on your BS scummy.

[Grand Arbiter]

Snowball was sitting on top of one of the wine racks, content after having enjoyed a tin of sardines provided by his person. He was about to doze off when there was a loud wooshing sound from the vent above him, and he dove to the floor.

When Snow came to and opened his eyes things looked blurry and voices sounded funny. He'd had a bad trip from some spiked caviar he had found, but nothing like this... he couldn't even recall who his human was. Looking and listening around none of the voices or faces were familiar, but then he saw them. The one thing that no cat could forget... FEATHERS!!!!

Spoiler: OOC:

Show

Been busy with college, may or may not stay busy. Taking a bit of time to vote.
Vote for Duck999 because it works well story-wise, and the pages regarding Mrs McGinty makes my head spin.
If someone can provide a clear & concise summary as to why McGinty is probably a wolf, that would be nice and likely would be enough for me to change my vote.

[AvatarVecna]

If someone can provide a clear & concise summary as to why McGinty is probably a wolf, that would be nice and likely would be enough for me to change my vote.

McGinty has claimed that if scried, the scry will say she's scum, and that we should ignore that scry if we see it, because it's a part of a role that's common elsewhere but almost completely unheard of here; she refuses to give more details on what this role involves, despite being directly asked multiple times and being threatened with a lynch when she refused to elaborate. It's essentially a non-claim.

It's not really a strong argument, but it's better than the reasoning given for the Duck wagon (which was "we need a bandwagon not a ton of random votes")

[Mrs McGinty]

Even ignoring hiw the miller isn't a role that I've seen in the entire time I've been playing WW on this site (making its existence and inclusion in this game surprising and unlikely),

It's the first one I've seen in a long while.

And, as I said to Logic when he told me, it's a horrible one (which is not to say I've not enjoyed it thus far).

saying "I'm townie, but if you try and scry me it'll say I'm scum" is super-scummy. That simple enough for for you to understand?

Of course it is. I was very clear on that from the start.

But with this role I was always going to be a liability. In a game at CFC or the org, where I know the player base and meta very well, I would probably have aimed to get myself killed by the scum. I didn't feel confident of doing so here, where most of the players are alien to me, and the behavioural expectations are quite different. Too easy to screw it up and end up harming the town worse than any D1 mislynch could.

At best, you're an honest villager who went about claiming their weird role that's never been seen before in the worst possible way. Yes, the best case scenario is that you're incomptetent.

I don't understand what you think is so anti-town about my claim.

It gives people something to talk about, helping to get us out of the random/joke vote stage, and the worst result is a D1 mislynch of a role that's a liability to town anyway.

The worst case scenario is that your unhelpfulness is deliberate, meaning you're either a scumm wolf who should be lunched, or the absolute worst kind of townie.

I never, ever play against my vc.

I get it wrong as much as anybody and more than most, but I'm always trying to do my best for the team.

- - - Updated - - -

Okay, it's way past bedtime, and I want to give people time to digest the damp squib that is my reveal...

Ramsus

Because I claimed today, that vote won't count.

Any other time, my vote counts double.

[Xihirli]

McGinty has claimed that if scried, the scry will say she's scum, and that we should ignore that scry if we see it, because it's a part of a role that's common elsewhere but almost completely unheard of here; she refuses to give more details on what this role involves, despite being directly asked multiple times and being threatened with a lynch when she refused to elaborate. It's essentially a non-claim.

It's not really a strong argument, but it's better than the reasoning given for the Duck wagon (which was "we need a bandwagon not a ton of random votes")

If a wolf were to make this claim, the other wolves would caution against it. Basically there's no reason to bring up such incriminating stuff D1. I'm edging toward believing her, just because she had no pressure before she claimed.

That said, everyone else, the more people who aren't the roles the wolves want to kill claim, the easier it will be for the wolves to pick the roles they want dead.

[AvatarVecna]

It's the first one I've seen in a long while.

And, as I said to Logic when he told me, it's a horrible one (which is not to say I've not enjoyed it thus far).



Of course it is. I was very clear on that from the start.

But with this role I was always going to be a liability. In a game at CFC or the org, where I know the player base and meta very well, I would probably have aimed to get myself killed by the scum. I didn't feel confident of doing so here, where most of the players are alien to me, and the behavioural expectations are quite different. Too easy to screw it up and end up harming the town worse than any D1 mislynch could.



I don't understand what you think is so anti-town about my claim.

It gives people something to talk about, helping to get us out of the random/joke vote stage, and the worst result is a D1 mislynch of a role that's a liability to town anyway.



I never, ever play against my vc.

I get it wrong as much as anybody and more than most, but I'm always trying to do my best for the team.

- - - Updated - - -

Okay, it's way past bedtime, and I want to give people time to digest the damp squib that is my reveal...

Ramsus

Because I claimed today, that vote won't count.

Any other time, my vote counts double.

Your posts start making a lot more sense now that you've stated that your intent was to get yourself lynched. I've been operating under the assumption that you were a townie claiming in order to become vaguely trusted (at least post scry), which I thought was a horrible conclusion to draw from the claim you made. "I'm a liability, you should lynch me so you can have reactions to analyze later" is a much more townie conclusion...and one that's hard to argue against even knowing you're a townie. At this point, your death will give us more info than any other death that can happen today, I think.

EDIT: Mind you, I still think this claim was a stupid idea to do D1. Even if your role and its seer-obfuscating power are true, that just means you'll eventually be mislynched, but that's not a great reason to accelerate the process and get yourself kicked out of the game. If you know you're eventually going to die due to your role, your best option is to try and hold out until the middle game, giving people multiple days of reactions to you to analyze, not to mention days' worth of your own analysis.

[Kish]

What's your role name, Mrs. McGinty?

Sleep well.

[Mrs McGinty]

What's your role name, Mrs. McGinty?

Tatiana Romanova.

Sleep well.

Thanks. It's been fun.

I won't have much more time before the day ends, but I should be able to work up some better reads than I have so far.

[Ramsus]

I'm being voted for by a probably-wolf for wanting to make sure we can ever lynch scried wolves? Yeah ok whatever. I would have moved my vote off you after your claim, but you claimed something we basically can't prove (where there's one vote manipulation role there's usually more) and voted for me because I was the person who actually put into clear words the reason people were voting for you. Which was a question you asked for an answer to. My bet is that you're a beast role or something and this was a gambit of some kind. Either way, my decision to leave my vote on you at this point is being made 50% out of spite since it's pretty annoying to get voted for because I actually gave a clear reason for my vote.

[GeneralH]

Okay let's try multiquote on this forum.

Why is it more scummy to claim than to crumb?



Yeah, I get that.

It's exactly why I claimed.

Because the only town reason to claim is to be able to point at the claim once you get scanned, and crumbing does that just as well without helping the wolves.

This exchange between McGinty and Murska has me thinking. A lot of McGinty's posts since pressure started piling on have rung true, and posts like this still show me solving behavior.

On the other side, Murska's questioning and response doesn't really ring true to me - though with the caveat that I've mistakenly scumread him before in the one game we've played together.

Meanwhile I really don't like AV's recent line of argument, I feel like he's not really being open to all possibilities like a good townie should be doing. So:

Mrs. McGinty

AvatarVecna

[flat_footed]

The miller's wife had waited long,
The tea was cold, the fire was dead;
And there might yet be nothing wrong
In how he went and what he said:
"There are no millers any more,"
Was all that she had heard him say;
And he had lingered at the door
So long that it seemed yesterday.

Sick with a fear that had no form
She knew that she was there at last;
And in the mill there was a warm
And mealy fragrance of the past.
What else there was would only seem
To say again what he had meant;
And what was hanging from a beam
Would not have heeded where she went.

And if she thought it followed her,
She may have reasoned in the dark
That one way of the few there were
Would hide her and would leave no mark:
Black water, smooth above the weir
Like starry velvet in the night,
Though ruffled once, would soon appear
The same as ever to the sight.

EDWIN ARLINGTON ROBINSON

At the very least, Mrs. McGinty is bringing a different tactic to the table and has met with a large degree of resistance. Would a wolf, with no votes, call this much attention to themselves Day 1? With the actual role claim, I'm leaning more towards believing her than not. Enough to take my vote off of Chambers, but I'm not sold on where it should go yet.

[Bobb]

I've been thinking...

McGinty tells us they're familiar with Miller in gameplay and that they normally claim Survivor

I got bored of false-hardclaiming survivor every game, and thought I'd change it up by true-hardclaiming miller.

My hypothesis is that the result will be identical; but you've got to test these things.

When pressed on the improbability of miller existing in the game,

It's the first one I've seen in a long while.

And, as I said to Logic when he told me, it's a horrible one (which is not to say I've not enjoyed it thus far).

So a tweak here I think. McGinty didn't know miller would be a noteworthy role by virtue of appearing due to unfamiliarity with the site's games. Not a scum tell.

But then we get to the claimed additional power,

Because I claimed today, that vote won't count.

Any other time, my vote counts double.

This power, if true, would drastically change the power dynamic for a miller. It suddenly becomes a role with a good day lynch staying power and actual utility for catching wolves with vote manipulation abilities of their own.

I don't think town Miller McGinty would play the preemptive role claim. We have a claim that this player normally does day one fake claims and yet, when given power, they decided to keep doing day one role claims? I don't like it.

But with this role I was always going to be a liability. In a game at CFC or the org, where I know the player base and meta very well, I would probably have aimed to get myself killed by the scum. I didn't feel confident of doing so here, where most of the players are alien to me, and the behavioural expectations are quite different. Too easy to screw it up and end up harming the town worse than any D1 mislynch could.

Now I've never so much as played a game with you Mrs McGinty. But I know already you're not really a sit down and take it type of player.

I'm comfortable lynching Mrs McGinty.

[Duck999]

We should get a wagon to the point where McGintY's vote would change the outcome and see if it really doesn't count. If course, we may not be able to do that in time. Also, I don't wanna die.

Maybe shoot to make it a tie (not counting(?)) McGinty's vote... Someone else think this through better than me.

[Bobb]

So if Mrs McGinty flips wolf we get the added benefit of a lot of interesting follow up questions with:

Xihirli,

If a wolf were to make this claim, the other wolves would caution against it. Basically there's no reason to bring up such incriminating stuff D1. I'm edging toward believing her, just because she had no pressure before she claimed.

Don't you have a reputation for claiming Devil (as Devil) one game or something? I know at least you have the capacity to concoct and respect wild schemes.


GeneralH,

#1 Posted the first vote for McGinty. D
#2 Didn't like McGinty's (non)defense against their vote.
#3 Faded from the conversation.
#4 When McGinty's posts started to "ring true" they switched their vote to Avatarvecna for "not being open minded."

Libro,

dropped an uniformed vote on the biggest counterwagon to McGinty and disappeared.

and flat_footed,

At the very least, Mrs. McGinty is bringing a different tactic to the table and has met with a large degree of resistance. Would a wolf, with no votes, call this much attention to themselves Day 1? With the actual role claim, I'm leaning more towards believing her than not. Enough to take my vote off of Chambers, but I'm not sold on where it should go yet.

We've got a shadow theme of "wolves don't take risks so McGinty isn't a wolf" coming out of the woodworks here. We also have a lot of mention of McGinty's relative position of anonymity they abandoned for this gambit. (town or wolf, it is a gambit)

Very curious they fall one after another without committing themselves to a better target. Heck, flat footed has his vote cocked and primed. I can't help but suspect it will end up hitting McGinty's counterwagon and he'll (eventually) come up with a reason for it.

[Kish]

As far as I know, Xihirli has been town in every game where she's claimed Devil. A role named Devil which was a town role, in that one game of Duck's...

[Bobb]

We should get a wagon to the point where McGintY's vote would change the outcome and see if it really doesn't count. If course, we may not be able to do that in time. Also, I don't wanna die.

Maybe shoot to make it a tie (not counting(?)) McGinty's vote... Someone else think this through better than me.

We're at six, four, three. (McGinty, Duck, Avatarvecna)


Also, no. No we should not. Someone will mess it up. And that person isn't any more likely to be a wolf protecting his buddy than a townie with an opinion or who didn't even hear the plan.

[GeneralH]

GeneralH,

#1 Posted the first vote for McGinty. D
#2 Didn't like McGinty's (non)defense against their vote.
#3 Faded from the conversation.
#4 When McGinty's posts started to "ring true" they switched their vote to Avatarvecna for "not being open minded."

I feel like this is a deliberately unfair summary of my actions; you're equally weighing a problem I had with one of McGinty's posts early on with my good feelings about numerous later posts. Obviously the latter is more than going to cancel out the former.

[Bobb]

I'm trying to forge a narrative here.

McGinty comes up town and you're clean as a whistle to me.

- - - Updated - - -

I mean, you do think McGinty's town, right?

[GeneralH]

I'm trying to forge a narrative here.

McGinty comes up town and you're clean as a whistle to me.

See, now this bothers me.

Obviously I'm not familiar with the meta in the Playground (teehee) but I think you just openly admitted to making a pretty big scumtell.

In my experience, town shouldn't be worrying about "forging" any sort of narrative, especially not on D1. That's the mafia's job. There's less of them than there is of town; they need to compensate for this by driving the town in the wrong directions by offering - or forging, if you will - a deliberately false narrative. Town, OTOH, shouldn't really be forging anything, they should instead be critically appraising the narratives; sifting through them and looking for narratives that were always there but may be buried and then deciding which one is most likely to be correct. "Forging", to me, implies falsehood.

I'd also be hesitant about making associative tells like what you just did above without anyone flipping at all, regardless of the "forge a narrative" bit.

Going to go to bed now but I should be around for EOD tomorrow - hopefully between now and then somebody can clarify for me whether this narrative bit is just a forum thing or not.

-edit- Yes, I do have McGinty as town right now.

[Bobb]

I know. It is a little weird how flippant the odd post can get here. I had some culture shock myself in the beginning. But it's fun! I acclimated.


I'll be sure to use more smilies in the future for you.



But yeah, if McGinty is mafia I would bet dollars to donuts at least (and probably only) one of the four posters I mentioned is also scum.

Do you agree or disagree?

[Grand Arbiter]

Libro,

dropped an uniformed vote on the biggest counterwagon to McGinty and disappeared.

I voted Duck999 because it made for a good RP vote before I had to finish preparing for an absolutely wonderful exam that I had to take.

It's difficult for me to get a read on Mrs McGinty, but it seems like there is a sufficient case to warrant a vote. Worst-case scenario (that I can see) is they flip town, in which case we have people to investigate tomorrow.

[AvatarVecna]

See, now this bothers me.

Obviously I'm not familiar with the meta in the Playground (teehee) but I think you just openly admitted to making a pretty big scumtell.

In my experience, town shouldn't be worrying about "forging" any sort of narrative, especially not on D1. That's the mafia's job. There's less of them than there is of town; they need to compensate for this by driving the town in the wrong directions by offering - or forging, if you will - a deliberately false narrative. Town, OTOH, shouldn't really be forging anything, they should instead be critically appraising the narratives; sifting through them and looking for narratives that were always there but may be buried and then deciding which one is most likely to be correct. "Forging", to me, implies falsehood.

I'd also be hesitant about making associative tells like what you just did above without anyone flipping at all, regardless of the "forge a narrative" bit.

Going to go to bed now but I should be around for EOD tomorrow - hopefully between now and then somebody can clarify for me whether this narrative bit is just a forum thing or not.

-edit- Yes, I do have McGinty as town right now.

I think what Bobb means by it is that they're trying to get an idea of your mindset during posting, to figure out whether they agree with your argument. It's not...presented super-well, but doing stuff like this prevents the earlier miscommunication: a large part of my issue with McGinty's claim was that I kept assuming they were arguing for people to not lynch them, and it turns out that they're trying to get reactions so that when they get lynched, people will have something to analyze...maybe. In any case, their arguments didn't seem to support "don't lynch me" to me, but looking at them through a "self-sacrifice" lens makes more sense. Maybe Bobb's trying to make sense of your stuff.

Of course, their choice of words is extremely poor. Forging - which can mean crafting, or faking - a narrative - idea of what happened, or made-up story of what happened - could be interpreted as Bobb trying to understand your mindset when you made your posts, but it could also be interpreted as Bobb trying to make up a story about your mindset to make you look bad.

[Bobb]

I voted Duck999 because it made for a good RP vote before I had to finish preparing for an absolutely wonderful exam that I had to take.

I feel you. I really feel you. I did intro to Analysis testing today. Awful.

And I don't think any one of your actions here is scum indicative on their own. That they all happened has pinged on my radar. But yeah, we'll see what we see when we see it.