[Drop Dead Studios] Spheres of Might Open Playtest

[digiman619]

Uh, no they aren't. They give up the same feats, I even made a post about this.

My mistake, I edited my previous post.

EDIT: And becasue I had nothing to do today, here's My (hopefully not too much in error) list of archetypes that stack with the SoM coversion archetypes. Paizo archetypes will be in standard text, non-Paizo archetypes from d20pfsrd.com are in italics, and archetypes from spheresofpower.wikidot.com are in bold, and will have what subsystem they are from in parentheses. Note that the Beastmaster and Wandering Samurai archetypes (Hunter and Samurai, respectively) do not stack with anything; either they replaced too many things for any existing archetype to cover the remaining gaps, or had little to no archetype support. Also, the Street Fighter is, as written a chained Monk archertpe, not an Unchained one. There are no Unchained Monk archetypes that stack with an UnMonk Street Fighter. Ones that I clained were compatible that I messed up on and actually aren't are marked with a strikethrough Like this.

Blood-Soaked Demon (Antipaladin)
Variant Channeling, Thematic Channeling, Warrior of the Unholy Darkness, Warrior of Blind Faith (Spheres of Might)

Warrior of Blind Faith (Antipaladin)
Knight of the Sepulcher, Variant Channeling, Lord of Darkness, Thematic Channeling, Templar of Spirits, Blood-Soaked Demon (Spheres of Might),Shadow Templar (Pact Magic)

Blood-Soaked Demon + Warrior of Blind Faith (Antipaladin)
Variant Channeling, Thematic Channeling

Berserker (Barbarian)
Breaker, Brutal Pugilist, Dreadnought, Drunken Brute, Drunken Rager, Elemental Kin, Fearsome Defender, Germinate Invoker, Hurler, Invulnerable Rager, Jungle Rager, Liberator,Mooncursed, Mounted Fury, Primal Hunter, Savage Barbarian, Scarred Rager, Sea Reaver, Titan Mauler, Totem Warrior, Untamed Rager, Wild Rager, Hateful Rager (Half-Orc only), Serene Barbarian, Bedlam Seeker, Savage Technician, Jotunkin, Worldsoul Incarnate (Spheres of Power), Folken (Gonzo), Totem Pactmaster (Heroes of the Jade Oath), Totemic Sage (Pact Magic)

Stormlord (Bloodrager)
Bloodrider,Greenrager, Metamagic Rager, Rageshaper. Primalist, Spelleater, Untouchable Rager, Sphere Bloodrager (Spheres of Power), Bloodravager (Pact Magic), Bloodsworn Binder (Pact Magic)

Brutal Pummeler (Brawler)
Shield Champion, Snakebite Striker, Steel-Breaker, Occult Bruiser (Pact Magic)

Blooded Knight (Cavalier)
Tenguhatamoto (Tengu only), Pactsworn Knight (Pact Magic)

Coiled Blade (Fighter)
Armor Master, Blackjack, Drill Sargent, Martial Master, Opportunist Fighter, Savage Warrior, Cavern Sniper (Drow only), Blade shifter, Dragon Warrior, Pacifist (Gonzo),

Gunfighter (Gunslinger)
Bolt Ace, Gunner Squire, Mysterious Stranger, Techslinger, Experimental Gunsmith (Gnome only), Glass Eye Gunmage (Spheres of Power)

Beastmaster (Hunter)
Nothing.

Battered Detective (Investigator)
Dread Investigator, Empiricist, Infiltrator, Mastermind, Relentless Inspector, Steel Hound, Monster Chronicler,

Runic Knight (Magus)
Beastblade, Bladebound, Hexcrafter, Magic Warrior, Myrmidarch, Spell Trapper, Elemental Knight (Suli only), Fiend Flayer (Tiefling only), Singer of Blades, Arcana Lord

Street Fighter (Monk)
Black Asp, Disciple of Wholeness, Drunken Master, Hamatulatsu Master, Harrow Warden, Hungry Ghost Monk, Karmic Monk, Kata Master, Ki Mystic, Martial Artist, Monk of the Four Winds, Monk of the Healing Hand, Monk of the Iron Mountain, Monk of the Lotus, Monk of the Seven Winds, Perfect Scholar, Quiggong Monk, Scarred Monk, Spirit Master, Terra-Cotta Monk, Weapon Adept, Wildcat, Windstep Master, Contemplative (Dwarf only), Nimble Guardian (Catfolk Only), Treetop Monk (Vanara only), Wall Climbing, Hand of Tyranny, Contemplative Monk (Heroes of the Jade Oath), Sadhu (Heroes of the Jade Oath),

Shinobi (Ninja)
Viscous Opportunist

Dirt Spattered Angel (Paladin)
Combat Healer Squire, Divine Defender, Divine Guardian, Empyreal Knight, Holy Guide, Legate, Mind Sword, Oathbound Paladin (Oath Against Fiends, ...Grotesquery, ...Savagery, ...the Way, ...the Wyrm, Oath of Charity, ...Chastity, ...the Crusade,), Tempered Champion, Warrior of the Holy Light, Variant Channeling, Divine Calling, Righteous Flame Acolyte, Chevalier, Dragon Knight, Thematic Channeling, Sphere Paladin (Spheres of Power), Warrior of Blind Faith (Spheres of Might)

Warrior of Blind Faith (Paladin)
Chosen one, Combat Squire Healer, Divine Defender, Divine Hunter, Dusk Knight, Empyreal Knight, Enforcer, Enlightened Paladin, Ghost Hunter, Grey Paladin, Holy Guide, Holy Gun, Holy Tactician, Hospitaler, Legate, Martyr, Sacred Shield, Scion of Peace, Shining Knight, Soul Sentinel, Sword of Valor, Undead Scourge, Warrior of the Holy Light, Variant Channeling, Redeemer (Half-Orc only), Tranquil Guardian (Aasimar only), Divine Calling, Shadow Banisher, Dashing Hero, Horned Warden, Righteous Flame Acolyte, Dragon Knight, Thematic Channeling, Purifier, Comrade (Gonzo), Shadow Templar (Pact Magic)

Ditt Spattered Angel +Warrior of Blind Faith (Paladin)
Combat Healer Squire, Divine Defender, Empyreal Knight, Holy Guide, Legate.

Nature’s Blade (Ranger)
Battle Scout, Dungeon Rover, Galvanic Saboteur, Infiltrator, Shapeshifter, Toxophile, Transporter, Urban Ranger, Wilderness Mystic, Bow Nomad (Kasatha only), Wave Warden (Merfolk only), Orisons, Musketeer Combat Style, Firearms Combat Style, Polarm…, Quarterstaff…, Spear…, Unarmed…, Pack-Bonded Hunter (Gnoll only)

Canny Scoundrel (Rogue)
Bandit, Burglar, Sanctified Rogue, Scout,ScrollScoundrel,Trapsmith, Cat Burglar (Catfolk only), Deadly Courtesan (Vishkanya only). Eldritch Raider (Gillman Only, Flicher (Halfling only), Swordmaster (Tengu only), Spell Resistance, Scourge of Shadows, Dungeon Runner, Glory Rogue, Mageslayer, Pet Trainer, Stalker, Street Urchin, Urban Ninja, Untouchable, Dimensional Jaunter, Viscous Opponent, Blacksnake, Cloakfighter, Harrier, Physical Exemplar, Spellhammer, Weapon Champion, Youxia, Fringe Binder (Pact Magic)

Wandering Samurai (Samurai)
Nothing

Guild Assassin (Slayer)
Executioner, Pureblade, Sniper, Headman, Warhound, Lethalities, Pactbane Slayer (Pact Magic)

Dancing Blade (Swashbuckler)
Corsair, Inspired Blade, Ronin

Shadow Warrior (Vigilante)
Faceless Enforcer, Psychometrist, Divine Avenger

[Lucas Yew]

Now that I heard you're adding more stuff before print, I'd really like it if some form of Timeless Body appeared, at least as a legendary talent for Open Hand or the likes...

Timeless Body (Open Hand)
Prereq.: O.H. sphere, 9 other combat spheres and/or talents, HD +15
Benefit: No longer take physical ability score penalty for aging; Physical aging until maximum lifespan slows down to one year per every 3 + HD/3 years.

It felt strange that the most common way to get pseudo immortality in Wuxia stories (read: training) was locked until the Sage showed up, you know (not counting the fact that there are Taoist equivalents for the Elixir of Life, but it eats up your WBL until you learn how to make the Philosopher's Stone).

----

Oh, and can anyone give me advice on how to give a Dex heavy unarmed/unarmored Conscript with Martial Flexibility and Open Hand specialization enough Will save bonuses for 20th level?

[Aipaca]

Gunfighter (Gunslinger)
Bolt Ace, Gunner Squire, Mysterious Stranger, Techslinger, Experimental Gunsmith (Gnome only), Glass Eye Gunmage (Spheres of Power)

[/SIZE][/FONT]

Glass Eye Gunmage doesn't stack, both replace the 8th level bonus feat.

[digiman619]

Glass Eye Gunmage doesn't stack, both replace the 8th level bonus feat.

Noted and fixed.

[AlienFromBeyond]

Ugh, it's pretty damn stupid that the SoM Magus archetype doesn't even stack with Sphere Magus, despite having text to clarify exactly how the Mystic Orders work with spherecasting. Nice fail there. I really want to play the archetype, but despise PF's vancian casting.

[digiman619]

Ugh, it's pretty damn stupid that the SoM Magus archetype doesn't even stack with Sphere Magus, despite having text to clarify exactly how the Mystic Orders work with spherecasting. Nice fail there. I really want to play the archetype, but despise PF's vancian casting.

Yeah, the Sphere Magus could use an errata saying that the Medium and Heavy armor class features modify the base class but can still be traded off. I'm 95% sure there's precedent for that.

[Aipaca]

For the Technician Improved Firearm Invention, does explosive rounds deal half damage dealt or half weapon damage dice in the radius? Eg. if you have Mechanical Savant do you deal 1/4 BAB damage in the radius?

Edit: Also, for the Independent Invention with the Suit improvement, what exactly can you use of your own abilities while inside the suit - skills, gadgets, other inventions?

[Mithril Leaf]

Does this line from Unarmed Practitioners:

Practitioners from a class that already
grants an unarmed damage progression, such as the brawler or
monk, may treat their unarmed strike as one size category larg-
er if they have 3 or more talents in an unarmed combat sphere,
but receive no further benefits.

Count as a virtual size increase, thus preventing it from stacking with any other virtual size increasers?

EDIT: Also what happens when you use Barrage at the same time as Vital Strike? Do all the attacks do Vital Strike Damage?

[Wartex1]

For the option to trade out spellcasting or feats for spheres access, I don't believe it lists how to determine the Practitioner Modifier for those.

For spellcasting, I guess keeping the Spellcasting modifier would be fine, but not sure about what to do when trading feats.

[master4sword]

Also what happens when you use Barrage at the same time as Vital Strike? Do all the attacks do Vital Strike Damage?

To expand on this question, the Dual Wielding sphere has language specifying that only the first attack is an attack action, and the Brawler archetype's pummel and the Monk archetype's flurry say their bonus attacks are a free action (and thus not an attack action), but the Barrage sphere has no such language. The other two sources of bonus attacks triggering off an attack action I can easily find (Open Hand's Spinning Heel Kick and Armiger's rapid assault) seem to imply that the bonus attacks are after the attack action; Barrage is the only place I have found that gives two attacks as an attack action that doesn't have language preventing them both from being attack action attacks, so the clarification would be appreciated!

EDIT: Wartex, it would be Wisdom. "If a character does not possess levels in a class that grants a practitioner modifier, they use their Wisdom modifer as their practitioner modifier."

[stack]

Champions of the Spheres (SoP/SoM crossover book) archetype playtest, for those interested in such things.

Feedback can be left on the doc, here, or on the DDS boards. Thanks in advance.

[Mithril Leaf]

Champions of the Spheres (SoP/SoM crossover book) archetype playtest, for those interested in such things.

Feedback can be left on the doc, here, or on the DDS boards. Thanks in advance.

Thank you for posting it here, I've been waiting to see the new Troubadour (although I see I'll still have to wait). I have but one complaint besides my desire to see my favorite class, and that is that the Armorist Archetype is basically either a straight mild buff or a mild nerf, depending on whether or not you can still trade your feats for a good progression if you have it.

[exelsisxax]

I'll just keep waiting for bard archetypes, i guess.

[Wartex1]

I'll just keep waiting for bard archetypes, i guess.

For Skald/Bard stuff so far (no actual play yet, sadly), I've just been using the guidelines for swapping spellcasting for practitioner progression, making Skald/Bard Adept Practitioners (using CHA mod) with no spellcasting. I think it makes for a rather nice and simple conversion, since most of the other abilities still work mechanically and thematically, only exception that really comes to mind is Skald's Spell Kenning.

[kkplx]

Wise Reflexes (Ex): A sentinel can use her Wisdom modifer in place of her Dexterity when determining her initiative and Reflex save bonus, although this bonus cannot exceed her class level

Is it the the total of reflex save or initiative that cannot exceed your sentinel level, or the how much of the wisdom modifier you get to apply to them instead of dexterity?

[EldritchWeaver]

Wise Reflexes (Ex): A sentinel can use her Wisdom modifer in place of her Dexterity when determining her initiative and Reflex save bonus, although this bonus cannot exceed her class level

Is it the the total of reflex save or initiative that cannot exceed your sentinel level, or the how much of the wisdom modifier you get to apply to them instead of dexterity?

The latter. So with a Dex +2 you are better of at level one with your Dex instead of Wis.

[Ssalarn]

Ugh, it's pretty damn stupid that the SoM Magus archetype doesn't even stack with Sphere Magus, despite having text to clarify exactly how the Mystic Orders work with spherecasting. Nice fail there. I really want to play the archetype, but despise PF's vancian casting.

It was literally impossible to combine the two in a balanced and functional fashion due to how the Sphere Magus from SoP:E is set up. You don't actually need an archetype to convert a character over to spherecasting, you can just use the general replacement rules presented in SoP, which is why the SoM Magus has rules for how to integrate spherecasting. There will actually be another Magus archetype in Champions of the Spheres, the actual gish book, that combines both systems from the ground up. So it wasn't a "fail", it was us providing the widest number of options to our customers in the most effective way possible. If you do have Spheres of Might but don't have Spheres of Power, than you can still use the Magus archetype presented there, and you can even use it with both by simply swapping the Magus' spells for a Mid-Caster progression. If you want an archetype that combines both systems from the ground up, that will be in Champions of the Spheres (and should be in the playtest doc later today), which assumes you have access to both books.

For the option to trade out spellcasting or feats for spheres access, I don't believe it lists how to determine the Practitioner Modifier for those.

For spellcasting, I guess keeping the Spellcasting modifier would be fine, but not sure about what to do when trading feats.

Feats would use the default of Wisdom. We've got errata pending to clarify that when you trade out a casting progression for a practitioner progression, you use your casting ability score as your new practitioner modifier.

To expand on this question, the Dual Wielding sphere has language specifying that only the first attack is an attack action, and the Brawler archetype's pummel and the Monk archetype's flurry say their bonus attacks are a free action (and thus not an attack action), but the Barrage sphere has no such language.[...]

I've made Adam aware of the issue since it was changed from a previous version that used language closer to Dual Wielding. I'm assuming that it's an oversight and it will be updated to work like the other multi-attack options.

[AlienFromBeyond]

You don't actually need an archetype to convert a character over to spherecasting, you can just use the general replacement rules presented in SoP, which is why the SoM Magus has rules for how to integrate spherecasting.

I... completely forgot those rules even existed. They're so easy to gloss over, and are broken up over multiple sections, while SoM handles the replacement feature much better by having all the pieces for it in one place. Thank you for reminding me.

If you want an archetype that combines both systems from the ground up, that will be in Champions of the Spheres (and should be in the playtest doc later today), which assumes you have access to both books.

I'll be looking out for it!

[Ssalarn]

I... completely forgot those rules even existed. They're so easy to gloss over, and are broken up over multiple sections, while SoM handles the replacement feature much better by having all the pieces for it in one place. Thank you for reminding me.


I'll be looking out for it!

Should be in the playtest docs now!

[Aipaca]

Thoughts on allowing Equipment Sphere: Armour Training to be taken a third time to ignore move speed reduction from Medium Armour? Or just make it a function of taking it a second time if you already have light Armour Prof.?

[Cybershark]

I just caught wind that the new sphere playtest is up. Was almost, almost excited for the Magus archetype- like Christmas morning, a boy expecting a wonderful gift: but when he opened the present, all he found was disappointment.

Magus stands in a very weird place. It has cool design, admittedly. Slashing and swording away at people. But its design is very, very janky, to put it in simpler terms. Most Magus builds are going to be using a scimitar w/ Dexterity to Damage and the infamous Shocking Grasp spell. It's the most optimal Magus build, for a good reason: all other options are sickeningly worse than the vaunted, loved, every-street-corner Scimitar and Shocking Grasp (SnSG, for short, from now on.)

1. Magi having light armor proficiency pushes them to Dexterity in order to stay alive (finesse builds rule the roost in this regard). Gaining Medium and Heavy Armor proficiency later on is a joke.
2. Spell Combat is limited to using a one-handed melee weapon and a spell in the off-hand, which limits you to one-handed martial weapons.
3. Spellstrike has no benefit for any weapon that does not have an 18-20/x2 critical profile (limiting you to Rapier, Cutlass, and Scimitar, and of them, only Scimitar is able to benefit from Dexterity-to-Damage by level 3). Keen scimitars for EVERYONE.
4. A severe lack of GOOD touch spells as an alternative to the ever popular "d6 per 2 Caster Levels and +3 to hit vs metal armor" that is Shocking Grasp, on a class that is built around delivering devastating touch spells. Your best touch spell is simply the ability to hit more accurately and **** out more damage.

Of these problems, what does Sphere Magus fix? Problem #4: with Sphere Magus, you at least have the ability to throw out different kinds of destructive blast, or self-buff while full-attacking. You've got a bunch of spell points, you still retain the trappings of the Medium/Heavy Armor joke of a class feature. Very little changes for the Magus.

Of these problems, what does Runic Knight fix? None of these. It is still technically limited to Vancian spellcasting (even though it IS easy enough to houserule it together to use Spheres of Power). It is worse, in fact, that it does not have cantrips: you don't even have the ability to throw out an Arcane Mark via Spellstrike to get some extra weapon damage in. You are once-more forced to go the route of the Dextrous bastard. For all intents and purposes, the Runic Knight is a slightly fancier Magus that's going to have some flashy baubles from getting a handful of sphere talents.

Magus isn't my baby. Mystic is an archetype that needs to be rewritten from the ground up. We have to admit that Magus was bad design- but there are archetypes that can help with it. Mystic can be one of them. I don't know the thought process behind it, but this is what stands out to me about the archetype.

1. Loses spell combat but gains the ability to cast two spells at the same time (Internal Casting + normal standard-action casting) on themselves. Later gains tiny bonus to CMD, rather than Concentration, which would allow them to actually keep their spell more consistently.
2. Doesn't trade out Greater Spell Combat or True Magus. Dead features that you can't even use, as there is no wording to state that you get normal Spell Combat back (and if it just gave you normal Spell Combat, then it'd once more limit you to one-handed weapons, which is a no-go)
3. Armor talents are mandatory at 7th and 13th level, not something you can just take at 1st if you wanted to be a heavy-armored Magus.
4. Doesn't just go the Sphere Magus route of giving extra spellpoints and letting you use them in place of Arcane Pool points, or the Combat Hedgewitch route of having the two pools be segregated: instead, you spend Arcane Pool points to get temporary Spell Points
5. Advanced Spellstrike is still better for 18-20/x2 critical profile weapons, though with Critical Genius existing in SoM this issue is somewhat lessened as any weapon can become a 19-20/x2 (eventually 18-20/x2) critical profile weapon.
6. A slightly more personal quibble, but they can trade their Bonus Feats (of which they gain only 3) but not their Magus Arcana for extra Magic talents? Seems a bit odd to me as you don't gain much value from it: I'd rather just be able to trade all of them for extra magic or combat talents, as they're likely to be split between Magic/Martial talents anyway.
7. Still doesn't replace Fighter Training. One of the more useless class features gained far too late to matter for any early-game build viability.

Something ought to change. And it needs to change such that Mystic opens the door for proper build variety, rather than limiting you to destructive blasts delivered via Spellstrike, self-buffs via Internalized Casting, and then grabbing whatever other talents you want in order to: 1) hit harder, 2) buff harder, or 3) blast with your spell harder. Admittedly, being able to use Spellstrike with Ranged Weapons and Two-handed Weapons is pretty neat, but not enough to really salvage it.

Also, it REALLY just needs to get the proofreading stick. I mean, really? Leaving in dead features, giving you small bonuses that aren't appropriate for the type of action you'd get them in, retaining old, bad design choices inside shiney, new containers? Not even any cool Magus arcana you can take? Magus ain't my baby but I can tell when it's being mistreated, and this is some pretty bad mistreatment.

[Ssalarn]

*lots of stuff*

Let me start with- We're not rewriting the Magus class, we're providing an archetype to allow you to play the Magus with our new systems. You might find the Prodigy class to be a better fit for your tastes given your complaints.

To address a few of them-

Both the Mystic and the Runic Knight can start out with medium or heavy armor if that's what you want. That's where martial traditions come into play, allowing you to both obtain heavier armor proficiencies and reduce the ASF for wearing them.

It doesn't take houseruling to convert the Runic Knight over to spherecasting, there are rules for converting any caster over sans archetype right in SoP. And Runic Knight needs to be compatible with vancian casting because people purchasing SoM may not have necessarily already purchased SoP. It needed to be a standalone book, and as I've already mentioned, making it compatible with the Sphere Magus from SoP:E simply wasn't viable.

Replacing Fighter Training with something else isn't something we're looking to do. If you're right and it's worthless, then replacing it with something better means that we've failed in our design goal of making balanced options. If someone else likes having that option and currently uses it in a build that they're looking to convert over to the spheres system, than we've invalidated their build by replacing a class feature not because it was necessary, but because one individual wanted it.

How many Magus Arcana can the sphere magus archetypes use? Almost all of them. I lost count somewhere around 50.

As to commentary on editing, that's one of the reasons we have an open playtest. So that people can enjoy our product for free during the development phase in exchange for helping us catch the things that slip through the cracks.

As to general commentary on the Magus- yeah, it's not the best designed class in the world. But a lot of people like it, including the things that aren't your favorite parts. There are 22 classes between Spheres of Might, Spheres of Power, and Champions of the Spheres, many of which have archetypes to blend the systems together. It sounds like maybe the Magus isn't the best fit for what you're hoping for and maybe the Prodigy, a martial/magic user built from the ground up to accommodate the two sphere systems, might be more your speed. The Magus is already one of the largest archetypes in SoM and CotS, and we're not going to rewrite it from the ground up. There's a higher chance of us just cutting it completely, which was seriously considered since it felt very redundant with some of the other options. It's there because we know that the class has its fans and we want them to be able to play what they like while using our options.

[Cybershark]

*snip*

I have no details about the Prodigy, ergo, I cannot pass judgement on if it is something I want, or if it fulfills my needs in a class. I am looking at the Magus on its own.

As well, there are multiple people holding the same thoughts I do: after we both looked at the archetype document, we were in agreement that it was just plain not that great, the Mystic archetype.

Fighter Training is worthless, though. A magus gets it at 10th level. They count as a 5th-level fighter for these feats when they get them, with a BaB of +7. By the time Fighter Training makes the Magus qualify for something, it is highly likely they will already meet a BaB Prerequisite associated with it. (i.e any feat that requires +11 BaB or Fighter level 8th: A magus will have +11 BaB at level 16, the same level he'd qualify as an 8th level fighter, rendering Fighter Training redundant).

However, this isn't the whole picture: more than a fair few feats that have a Fighter-level prereq. attached to them also require a Fighter class feature that the Magus cannot emulate, i.e Bravery, Armor, or Weapon Training. This narrows down the feat list to a very small number, of which only Weapon Specialization is maybe worth it, if the Magus cannot keep up with DPR (though at level 10, having to take Weapon Spec to keep up, you likely have other problems.) Fighter Training would be nice as a 1st-level feature, but nothing exceptional: it's stuff the Brawler and Swashbuckler have as a footnote. As a level 10 feature that doesn't even give full fighter levels for feat prerequisites, it's terrible, and represents the fact that Paizo vastly overvalued Fighter Levels.

Besides, why do you want to get into Fighter feats when there are Spheres of Might talents you can trade in for? NONE of which have any prerequisite related to Class level- only total character level, a previous talent, or a Base Attack Bonus prerequisite.

I don't particularly care that there are 50 magus arcana that the Magus can use. Most aren't that good. Perhaps one third of Magus arcana from Paizo's published content are worth taking. Of them, many are level-locked, in such a way that your choices are limited to maybe one-half of one-third of 60 total arcana. Mystic adds no special arcana that make it easier to blend your magic with your martial abilities. Meanwhile, Mageknight gains the ability to: trade a Mystic Combat for a bonus combat feat (in addition to the bonus feats they already have), can easily acquire Mystic Focus, and even gets serial-numbers-filed-off Spell Combat in the form of Talent Blending.



As well: Why is Mystic given a clunkier, limited-times-a-day class feature that's still going to be used to either: cast a spell, then make a Spheres of Might attack action (almost identical to Talent Blending), or nova hard and get a huge number of buffs going at once with no interaction between Spheres of Might or Spheres of Power? It's still an action-economy saving feature that's worth a dip, enabling High-casters to cheaply get off up to three spells a turn at a startlingly low level (standard action, move, then quicken spell for a swift action). It was certainly very strong before, but being so limited to once a day for a single spell is insulting. It's a slap in the face of a class feature when something blatantly superior exists as an optional ability for a different class!

Why still, does the Mystic not just use the simpler option presented by the first iteration of a spherecasting Magus? Mystic's Potency adds in multiple variables to keep track of (time, potentially THREE pools of points to mess with). The original Sphere Magus simply increases your spellpoint pool by 50% and has both your arcane pool and spell pool be one and the same. No finagling with temporary spellpoints that could end up wasted and no finagling with multiple pools. If you are aiming for simplicity, having one pool instead of three is as simple as can be: it's one-third as many resources to track.

Addendum: Armor Training: While the Mystic's Armor Training ability is fairly harmless, I'm still not a fan of its current execution. For what it's worth, free Armor Training and an extra Equipment talent aren't bad, and then another extra one at 13th also is rather nice. But its still reminiscent of the classic Magus' shenanigans with Light>Medium>Heavy Armor shenanigans, especially with regards to straight up forcing Armor Training to be taken (even if you don't want it). For a light-armor magus, it's a dead talent. For a magus that already invested to get medium and heavy armor, it's really quite nothing.

[Ssalarn]

I have no details about the Prodigy, ergo, I cannot pass judgement on if it is something I want, or if it fulfills my needs in a class. I am looking at the Magus on its own.

We wrote an entire book, not one archetype. If you can't be bothered to read the materials that are available to you, I can't do anything about that. Everyone who backed and anyone who's been following the playtest should have access to the prodigy playtest.

Fighter Training is worthless, though. A magus gets it at 10th level. They count as a 5th-level fighter for these feats when they get them, with a BaB of +7. By the time Fighter Training makes the Magus qualify for something, it is highly likely they will already meet a BaB Prerequisite associated with it. (i.e any feat that requires +11 BaB or Fighter level 8th: A magus will have +11 BaB at level 16, the same level he'd qualify as an 8th level fighter, rendering Fighter Training redundant).

It's great that you feel that way, but there are people out there who actually like feats like Critical Mastery, Disrupting Shot, Disruptive, Greater Penetrating Strike, Greater Shield Focus, Greater Shield Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Martial Versatility, Penetrating Strike, Shatterspell, Shield Specialization, Spellbreaker, Weapon Specialization, and any other feats that the magus can only take if it retains that class ability. Now granted, a few of those are still out of the magus' reach, but they can be accessible through multiclass builds that keep a lot of what a person might want out of the magus available.

However, this isn't the whole picture: more than a fair few feats that have a Fighter-level prereq. attached to them also require a Fighter class feature that the Magus cannot emulate, i.e Bravery, Armor, or Weapon Training. This narrows down the feat list to a very small number, of which only Weapon Specialization is maybe worth it, if the Magus cannot keep up with DPR (though at level 10, having to take Weapon Spec to keep up, you likely have other problems.) Fighter Training would be nice as a 1st-level feature, but nothing exceptional: it's stuff the Brawler and Swashbuckler have as a footnote. As a level 10 feature that doesn't even give full fighter levels for feat prerequisites, it's terrible, and represents the fact that Paizo vastly overvalued Fighter Levels.

Again, it's great that you feel that way, but as I mentioned above there are a lot of feats that don't require those class features but do require fighter levels, and people like that option. We're not going to scrap a class feature because you don't like it when it can be key to a lot of builds.

Besides, why do you want to get into Fighter feats when there are Spheres of Might talents you can trade in for? NONE of which have any prerequisite related to Class level- only total character level, a previous talent, or a Base Attack Bonus prerequisite.

There are a lot of feats we intentionally didn't overlap, and several of those fall under the feats that one would want Fighter Training for. And again, as I previously mentioned, if the class feature really were as worthless as you insist, us replacing it with something stronger would be unbalanced design and contrary to our design goals of creating a product that is compatible with and balanced to the widest numbers of gaming groups possible.

I don't particularly care that there are 50 magus arcana that the Magus can use. Most aren't that good. Perhaps one third of Magus arcana from Paizo's published content are worth taking. Of them, many are level-locked, in such a way that your choices are limited to maybe one-half of one-third of 60 total arcana. Mystic adds no special arcana that make it easier to blend your magic with your martial abilities. Meanwhile, Mageknight gains the ability to: trade a Mystic Combat for a bonus combat feat (in addition to the bonus feats they already have), can easily acquire Mystic Focus, and even gets serial-numbers-filed-off Spell Combat in the form of Talent Blending.

So you don't like Spell Combat, you don't like Spellstrike, you don't like magus arcana, and you don't like Fighter Training. So what you don't like is the Magus. This archetype is for people who do like the Magus and want to keep as much of it as possible while converting over to our system. As I've already said, we're not rewriting the class, nor are we going to make a version that's strictly stronger than Paizo's. Instead of writing page-long forum posts expressing your aggrieved opinion, you might be better served to go and read up on the prodigy (which I even linked to for you above).

As well: Why is Mystic given a clunkier, limited-times-a-day class feature that's still going to be used to either: cast a spell, then make a Spheres of Might attack action (almost identical to Talent Blending), or nova hard and get a huge number of buffs going at once with no interaction between Spheres of Might or Spheres of Power? It's still an action-economy saving feature that's worth a dip, enabling High-casters to cheaply get off up to three spells a turn at a startlingly low level (standard action, move, then quicken spell for a swift action). It was certainly very strong before, but being so limited to once a day for a single spell is insulting. It's a slap in the face of a class feature when something blatantly superior exists as an optional ability for a different class!

You should rein in the hyperbole, it's making it hard to find your actual point.
First, you actually can't cast three spells per turn- A spell with a casting time of 1 swift action doesn't count against your normal limit of one spell per round.

There is some text, in the sections that talk about casting quickened or swift spells, that notes that you are limited to only casting one spell per round (calling such spells out as an exception).

Internal Casting doesn't give you more spells, it gives you the ability to cast them under different circumstances depending on your circumstances, with a reasonable limit on how often you can downgrade spell costs in that manner.

Secondly, the power and effectiveness of Spellstrike has been greatly improved. Not only have we opened up the weapons and combat style it's compatible with, we've published an entire book full of compatible new options to go with it. When you balance an archetype, you balance it as a whole and weigh that against the original class. The spell combat option is limited because the advanced spellstrike is significantly stronger. You don't need to cast Bladed Dash to move and hit effectively, you can use the Athletics sphere to bounce and dodge up to your opponent before dropping an advanced spellstrike attack on them, which could very well include some other handy trigger based on making an attack action. With that increase in potential we need to evaluate the other options so that the chassis as a whole maintains its integrity.

Why still, does the Mystic not just use the simpler option presented by the first iteration of a spherecasting Magus? Mystic's Potency adds in multiple variables to keep track of (time, potentially THREE pools of points to mess with). The original Sphere Magus simply increases your spellpoint pool by 50% and has both your arcane pool and spell pool be one and the same. No finagling with temporary spellpoints that could end up wasted and no finagling with multiple pools. If you are aiming for simplicity, having one pool instead of three is as simple as can be: it's one-third as many resources to track.

Because literally the number one most repeated complaint about the Sphere Magus is that it gave up its arcane pool, and we're not trying to repeat things we've already done.

Addendum: Armor Training: While the Mystic's Armor Training ability is fairly harmless, I'm still not a fan of its current execution. For what it's worth, free Armor Training and an extra Equipment talent aren't bad, and then another extra one at 13th also is rather nice. But its still reminiscent of the classic Magus' shenanigans with Light>Medium>Heavy Armor shenanigans, especially with regards to straight up forcing Armor Training to be taken (even if you don't want it). For a light-armor magus, it's a dead talent. For a magus that already invested to get medium and heavy armor, it's really quite nothing.

If you already invested in getting medium and heavy armor, you have free Equipment talents for rounding out your build. And, as I've already told you many times, we're not rewriting the magus class. We're changing enough to make it compatible and functional within the new system with a wide variety of builds while trying to leave as much of it the same as we reasonably can. You may not like the Magus, but there are thousands of players who do, and every time we gut something out of the class we're not just taking that option away, we're taking away archetypes and other things that players love and don't want to lose because they see them as defining parts of their character.

When we take away or alter things like the arcane pool, fighter training, magus arcana, or medium and heavy armor, we're not just taking away those options, we're also taking away core archetypes like the very popular Bladebound. The more things we change, the less people are able to use their favorite options, and we've already changed a lot to make it work within the system.

[AlienFromBeyond]

It's great that you feel that way, but there are people out there who actually like feats like Critical Mastery, Disrupting Shot, Disruptive, Greater Penetrating Strike, Greater Shield Focus, Greater Shield Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Martial Versatility, Penetrating Strike, Shatterspell, Shield Specialization, Spellbreaker, Weapon Specialization, and any other feats that the magus can only take if it retains that class ability. Now granted, a few of those are still out of the magus' reach, but they can be accessible through multiclass builds that keep a lot of what a person might want out of the magus available.

Hold on, I have to butt in here. It's not just a "few. A full 4 of these feats are never accessible to the magus, and 2 more only if retraining rules are allowed and you retrain at level 20, nearly half of the feats you provide as an example. The rest of those feats, less than a handful are even worth considering, with the others just being plain crap or coming in way too late (level 14 or later). And if you're not using SoP casting on the magus, multiclassing out of magus is a terrible idea unless it's into a prestige class. I understand why you might not want to provide something that is a straight upgrade as a replacement, but to call Fighter Training even vaguely "useful" is disingenuous.

We wrote an entire book, not one archetype. If you can't be bothered to read the materials that are available to you, I can't do anything about that. Everyone who backed and anyone who's been following the playtest should have access to the prodigy playtest.

Which one wouldn't know about without you posting it just now because it's buried in the middle of this thread, no announcement in the first post, and the archetype playtest doc doesn't even cross-link to it like the various SoM playtest docs did to each other. Don't jump down someone else's throat for not knowing information you do not easily provide.

[arkangel111]

Hold on I have to butt in here. You are discussing problems with the Magus class, not the SoP/SoM 3rd party material. If there is a problem with the Magus class that is something PAIZO needs to fix. DDS made a product to fit in with the ALREADY existing class, and tried to make it work similar to other PAIZO products. Jumping down a designer's throat over it not fitting your standards is not polite.

Out of 25 OFFICIAL archetype options 3 of them lose fighter training, and 1 of them changes it. Out of 48 total between all 3PP content according to D20PFSRD.com only 1 other publisher lost fighter training with an archetype with 1 of their options. less than 5% of the options available lose fighter training and you are complaining, very loudly I might add, that DDS's 2 options don't lose it. Do you realize how ridiculous that is? If you don't like their option then make your own house rule for it. 3PP is not even a 1/4 step away from homebrew material.

Now back to the real discussion on hand. I can't seem to get the links to work, it keeps pulling open a blank page, no matter which option I choose. Is the playtest closed? I noticed an issue with an interaction between 2 abilities I wanted to bring up but can't seem to get it to work today.

[EldritchWeaver]

Now back to the real discussion on hand. I can't seem to get the links to work, it keeps pulling open a blank page, no matter which option I choose. Is the playtest closed? I noticed an issue with an interaction between 2 abilities I wanted to bring up but can't seem to get it to work today.

The link to the archetypes works fine for me.

[arkangel111]

weird I've still got nothing... I even tried to print it and it shows up as a single blank page. anyone have any ideas?

[Aipaca]

Just a bump on these questions? I realise I'm asking a lot but I'm trying to procrastinate from studying for finals here

1. Conscript Specialisations - Sniper Sphere Specialisation - Precision Shots lets you use a move action to steady your weapon, but in order to use your Deadly Shot Sniper Sphere ability you (probably) need to use your move action each turn to reload your weapon to regain martial focus? So you'll only be using Precision Shots on the first round of combat or on a round in which you are not going to be able to use Deadly Shot?

2. Does the Shield Sphere: Forced Rebound (Deflect) talent allow the enemy to take an AoO?

3. For the Technician Improved Firearm Invention, does explosive rounds deal half damage dealt or half weapon damage dice in the radius? Eg. if you have Mechanical Savant do you deal 1/4 BAB damage in the radius?

4. For the Independent Invention with the Suit improvement, what exactly can you use of your own abilities while inside the suit - skills, gadgets, other inventions?

5. Thoughts on allowing Equipment Sphere: Armour Training to be taken a third time to ignore move speed reduction from Medium Armour? Or just make it a function of taking it a second time if you already have light Armour Prof.?

[stack]

Shield sphere Forced Rebound is not intended to provoke an AOO.