[Drop Dead Studios] Spheres of Might Open Playtest

[Wartex1]

I'm gonna reiterate on Perfect Shot having some weird behavior. As written, as long as the target is in cover, you roll twice and take the better result. Combined with Improved Precise Shot, which negates penalties granted by cover, it actually makes you more accurate when firing on someone in cover than when firing on someone out on the open, which is bizarre. I'd suggest changing it to emulate Improved Precise Shot instead so they don't stack weirdly.

[Cybershark]

By and large we avoided adding flat accuracy boosters to the talents, or talents that replaced prereq-free or prereq-light feats unless those feats were absolutely necessary to a combat style. Weapon Focus is both easily accessible and used as a gate on a number of class features like the warpriest's sacred weapon, so replicating it as a talent didn't make sense.



There was no goal to make talents better than feats on an individual basis (Legendary Talents excluded, of course). In fact, one of the reasons that feats like Power Attack aren't emulated in the talents is because they're already presented at a reasonable cost as feats. The big thing we dealt with is that not all feats are created equal; some feats are really good, other feats are buried behind prereqs that make them unattainable, and other feats are so situational that it's hard to justify spending one of what might be only 10 (or fewer if you're never going to go past 12th level or so) feats your character will ever get on them. So a talent should generally be about the equivalent of a decent, concept enabling feat like Arcane Armor Training, maybe a bit better than a "I'm taking this because I have to" prereq kind of feat like Combat Expertise, but not quite as good individually as a solid prereq-heavy feat like Thunder and Fang.

By that logic, why ISN'T Weapon Focus folded in as an associated feat for discipline talents? A large number of combat-style enabling feats (weapon of the chosen, various [Weapon] Grace feats, Thunder and Fang, numerous Divine Fighting Techniques, etc..) require Weapon Focus. Having it be the associated feat for disipline talents wouldn't break anything: if anything it will allow builds to get off the ground even faster, as now a build won't have to take weapon focus and can instead focus (haha) on acquiring the feat they need to use their preferred combat style.

I know there's a Dual-Wield talent that applies feats from one weapon to the other weapon, but that still doesn't apply to a build that wants to be a classic Switch-Hitter (a Bushido training-using Samurai, or the classic longsword+longbow ranger?) Or even just switching between two similar weapons while not being an Armiger (similar to Geralt of Rivia, with two distinct swords that would likely fall into the same discipline talent, but not the same kind of swords). There are a number of combat styles (and kinds of warriors, too) that focus on using two or more weapons while not necessarily being Two-Weapon Fighting. Knights carried lances, which they were expected to be skilled with, but they were also expected to be proficient swordsmen. Samurai are associated with the katana, but made just as much use of the naginata, bow, and gun. Plenty of cowboys were just as good with a knife as they were with a rifle. Modern infantrymen are trained in rifle, pistol, and hand-to-hand combat. Ancient Spartans and hoplites had shields, Spears, and the ever popular gladius. Most professional fighters/warriors aren't expected to only be good with one kind of weapon, but multiple.

Thunder and Fang is especially egregious, as it requires Weapon Focus in the klar and the earthbreaker along with Two-Weapon Fighting (which the Dual-Wield sphere, strangely, doesn't count as!). At the very earliest, on a class that doesn't get any bonus feats (barbarian, for instance), a character forgoing power attack and any other feats will acquire it by 7th level. A human will have it by 5th. Taking Power attack in order to keep damage up will delay it by two levels (to 9th/7th, respectively.)

By rolling Weapon Focus into discipline talents, it cuts at least four levels out of the equation, enabling the build to get online far sooner than otherwise would happen (even if you don't get the +1s from Weapon Focus, which is a small loss). I do think that would align with your goal of "more builds online, sooner." Those are my two cents, anyhow.

[AlienFromBeyond]

There was no goal to make talents better than feats on an individual basis (Legendary Talents excluded, of course). In fact, one of the reasons that feats like Power Attack aren't emulated in the talents is because they're already presented at a reasonable cost as feats. The big thing we dealt with is that not all feats are created equal; some feats are really good, other feats are buried behind prereqs that make them unattainable, and other feats are so situational that it's hard to justify spending one of what might be only 10 (or fewer if you're never going to go past 12th level or so) feats your character will ever get on them. So a talent should generally be about the equivalent of a decent, concept enabling feat like Arcane Armor Training, maybe a bit better than a "I'm taking this because I have to" prereq kind of feat like Combat Expertise, but not quite as good individually as a solid prereq-heavy feat like Thunder and Fang. Our focus was on making talents that added mobility, versatility, and enabled builds and concepts right from level one. We chose to do that while preserving the basic math framework of the game and only making meaningful escalations or adjustments in areas where the math breaks down, like when significant size modifiers start getting applied to CMB/CMD. Part of preserving that framework involves consistency on our end when it comes to assigning bonus types.

So basically it's considered acceptable if a player would choose to stick with the actual feat over the associated talent in certain circumstances? I find that a bit strange, but acceptable. Thank you for the explanation.

[RedMop]

Some questions.

Q1: Guardian Sphere and Massive Damage - with Greater Delayed Damage taken twice, it is 5x level. With poor HP rolling, it is possible to have more than 50% of your total HPs in the delayed damage pool. When does the Massive Damage check happen? If I am hit 5 times for 10 damage, and I can handle taking 50 in my delayed damage pool, do I have to deal with Massive Damage when I apply the damage to my real HPs? It seems more clear that by taking a single 50 point hit, I'd need to deal with Massive Damage right now, instead of at the end of my turn, though I'm not certain this is correct.

Bump. Anyone?

[Cybershark]

Bump. Anyone?

Not one of the Devs, but if you DELAY the damage, then logically the massive damage check should only happen when you actually TAKE the damage: by moving the hit to your delayed damage pool, it hasn't actually been removed from your hit points until the end of your turn, wherein the damage is moved back to your ACTUAL hitpoints. Just my two cents.

[Ssalarn]

Not one of the Devs, but if you DELAY the damage, then logically the massive damage check should only happen when you actually TAKE the damage: by moving the hit to your delayed damage pool, it hasn't actually been removed from your hit points until the end of your turn, wherein the damage is moved back to your ACTUAL hitpoints. Just my two cents.

That's my take on it, yeah.

[stack]

Bump. Anyone?

Didn't consider the massive damage rules in writing the ability as I dont recall ever seeing them used, so they are easy to forget.

Damage directed to the pool wouldn't count toward massive damage and I am inclined to say that damage coming out of the pool just doesn't trigger massive damage rules.

[Kaouse]

Another question that might have been answered before, but:

If you obtain a talent that has an associated feat, do you count as also having that feat's prerequisites? For example, if I take the Deathless talent from the Beserker Sphere (Associated Feat: Diehard), do I still need to take Endurance if I want to grab a feat like Stalwart or Deathless Initiate? Or for another example, if I had Greater Grapple from the Wrestling Sphere, do I still need to take Improved Grapple if I also wanted to take Rapid Grappler?

[Mithril Leaf]

Any update on getting the Sage and Troubadour playtest back up?

[Mehangel]

Another question that might have been answered before, but:

If you obtain a talent that has an associated feat, do you count as also having that feat's prerequisites? For example, if I take the Deathless talent from the Beserker Sphere (Associated Feat: Diehard), do I still need to take Endurance if I want to grab a feat like Stalwart or Deathless Initiate? Or for another example, if I had Greater Grapple from the Wrestling Sphere, do I still need to take Improved Grapple if I also wanted to take Rapid Grappler?

Some spheres and talents overlap the function of existing feats. Such a feat is listed in the talent as an associated feat. Possessing the sphere or talent counts as possessing the feat for the purposes of meeting prerequisites and for abilities that modify the feat’s function (such as a mythic version of the feat). Unless noted, talents do not stack with their associated feats. Any time you would gain an associated feat, you may instead choose to gain the sphere or talent it is associated with. You must still meet the prerequisites for a talent gained this way, such as possessing the base sphere.

Does that answer your question?

[RedMop]

Didn't consider the massive damage rules in writing the ability as I dont recall ever seeing them used, so they are easy to forget.

Damage directed to the pool wouldn't count toward massive damage and I am inclined to say that damage coming out of the pool just doesn't trigger massive damage rules.

Re: Guardian Massive Damage

You gain a delayed damage pool equal to your 3 x your base attack bonus. When you receive damage, as part of taking the damage you may redirect all or part of it to your delayed damage pool. Apply damage reduction and resistance before redirecting the damage. You may not redirect damage that would exceed the maximum capacity of the damage pool. Your delayed damage pool empties at the end of your turn each round, inflicting any damage stored in the pool on you, bypassing any damage reduction or resistance you possess and resetting to 0. Any additional effects of the attack, such as poison, are still incurred immediately even if the entire damage of the attack is redirected to the delayed damage pool. Any healing you receive in excess of your maximum hp automatically reduces the amount of damage in your delayed damage pool.

Might I suggest putting some text in there for that along the lines of reduces your current hit point total but it isn't considered damage. This could also interfere with concentration checks for 1 round casting spells.

[Kaouse]

Does that answer your question?

No, not particularly.

[Cybershark]

I had a huge post typed up, but because of a bug it got lost.

Anyways, I finally got the chance to read Prodigy. I'll give a TL;DR summary of the original post: it's good, but needs some work. There's some vague language around openers, some of which read as if they have a similar effect to talents and grant new abilities (Fencing's Link being a feint as a move action, does it grant the benefits of Fast Feint, or does it REQUIRE Fast Feint?). It isn't specified whether imbuements require concentration (i.e Enhancement) or not. I'll either edit this post or make a new one when I go through the Prodigy again and write down all the stuff I saw.

[torrasque666]

Quick question due to me viewing it on the wiki and not during the playtest, but can the Extra Combat Talent feat be used to gain access to spheres without being a sphere using class?

[Sam C.]

Quick question due to me viewing it on the wiki and not during the playtest, but can the Extra Combat Talent feat be used to gain access to spheres without being a sphere using class?

Yes. The word "extra" does throw people off, but the feat has no prerequisites.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Does that answer your question?

I'm pretty sure they meant "Do associated feats also count as the prereqs for the feat they count as for the purposes of prereqs?" Because if not, you still need to take all those feats to qualify in several cases iirc.

[Tariyan Draegr]

Yes. The word "extra" does throw people off, but the feat has no prerequisites.

Actually what the feat says is that you gain an extra combat talent from a sphere you already have access too, so technically, no you can't use it to gain access to spheres

[digiman619]

Actually what the feat says is that you gain an extra combat talent from a sphere you already have access too, so technically, no you can't use it to gain access to spheres

It does "an additional sphere or talent from a sphere you possess", though the word " additional" does imply that you must already have one. Perhaps wording it as "If you possess no combat talents, you gain one combat sphere of your choice. Otherwise...", or a note saying "Note: You may take this feat even if you possess no combat talents".

[Sam C.]

It does "an additional sphere or talent from a sphere you possess", though the word " additional" does imply that you must already have one. Perhaps wording it as "If you possess no combat talents, you gain one combat sphere of your choice. Otherwise...", or a note saying "Note: You may take this feat even if you possess no combat talents".

Considering that the question of whether someone without combat training can take Extra Combat Talent has come up multiple times, this would probably be a good idea.

On another note, it occurs to me that the Warrior of Blind Faith Antipaladin/Paladin archetype isn't really needed anymore. The universal rule allowing Low and Mid-Casters to exchange their casting for combat talents, using their casting ability modifier as their practitioner modifier, makes the archetype rather redundant. The "special" section in the Blood-Soaked Demon and Dirt Spattered Angel archetypes could be changed to read something like "A character with this archetype may also choose to exchange their spells class feature for additional combat talents, becoming an expert practitioner instead of a proficient practitioner."

[Kaouse]

While I await the answer to my associated feat question, I kinda also want some more clarification on this version of Flyby Attack:

Flyby Attack (Monster)*

This creature can make an attack before and after it moves while flying.

Prerequisite: Fly speed.

Benefit: When flying, the creature can take a move action and another standard action at any point during the move. The creature cannot take a second move action during a round when it makes a flyby attack.

Normal: Without this feat, the creature takes a standard action either before or after its move.

Emphasis mine.

The bolded portions seem to suggest that you can take two standard actions during a round in which you use Flyby Attack. Even the restriction seems to suggest that you would still otherwise have access to the ability to make a move action after using Flyby Attack. Is this supposed to be the case, or do you only ever get a single standard action in between a move action? What exactly was the purpose of the rewrite?

[EldritchWeaver]

Flash step is meant to get you where you could go with your normal movement (move, charge, withdraw, run, whatever), just without passing through the intervening spaces.

So would there be anything against having a second talent, which grants the Warp effect (but still requires spending martial focus)?

[Mehangel]

So would there be anything against having a second talent, which grants the Warp effect (but still requires spending martial focus)?

I dont know if I would want to see it as a talent, but I wouldn't mind seeing a (Dual sphere) feat that allows you expend your martial focus to reduce the spell point cost of Warp sphere's teleport ability by 1 (minimum: 0 SP).

[Ssalarn]

While I await the answer to my associated feat question, I kinda also want some more clarification on this version of Flyby Attack:



Emphasis mine.

The bolded portions seem to suggest that you can take two standard actions during a round in which you use Flyby Attack. Even the restriction seems to suggest that you would still otherwise have access to the ability to make a move action after using Flyby Attack. Is this supposed to be the case, or do you only ever get a single standard action in between a move action? What exactly was the purpose of the rewrite?

It's just a reprint of Flyby Attack since we reference the feat in the GM Support section, not an alternate version. It allows you to take a standard action in the middle of a movement. You'd need to ask Paizo why it's written like that.

[inuyasha]

I'm sorry, this question must have come up before, but I can't find an answer anywhere. I'm seeing a lot of references to the Battered condition in SoM, but I haven't been able to find an explanation for what it is.

I've been looking at SoM through the wiki though, and it looks like a super fun system! If only I had a group to use SoP/SoM with (I don't think it's something I could just plop into an existing game).

[Wartex1]

The battered condition should be found at the beginning of the book, and iirc it's imposes a -2 penalty to an enemy's CMD.

[digiman619]

You can find a more complete description in the terminology part of the "Using Spheres of Might" section if the wiki, but basically a battered target gets -2 to CMD and can't make attacks of opportunity if foes use combat maneuvers against them.

[Mehangel]

I'm sorry, this question must have come up before, but I can't find an answer anywhere. I'm seeing a lot of references to the Battered condition in SoM, but I haven't been able to find an explanation for what it is.

Heavy blows have left a creature with this condition vulnerable to further attacks, imposing a -2 penalty to the creature’s CMD and preventing them from taking attacks of opportunity provoked by a creature performing a combat maneuver. Some talents have different effects or activation times against battered creatures. The battered condition can be removed by taking the total defense action, or through the restore ability of the Life sphere (see Spheres of Power), the lesser restoration spell, or similar effects. When inflicting the battered condition on a target that is already battered, the rounds stack when determining duration.

For reference, the battered condition can be found here.

[Awertum]

How Ghost strike w/ Cryptic Strike from Death Sphere interact with Attack action and any combat talent? For example, can i use Cryptic Strike (a standard action) w/ Brutal Strike?

[inuyasha]

Thanks everybody. I must have checked there 20 times, and somehow I completely missed it!

[Quarian Rex]

It's just a reprint of Flyby Attack since we reference the feat in the GM Support section, not an alternate version. It allows you to take a standard action in the middle of a movement. You'd need to ask Paizo why it's written like that.

If you're going to take the time to reprint it in one of your producrs then you really need to take the time to make sure that it is worded in the way that you intend. Copy/paste errors are a disease and you can be the cure! Yay!