[Drop Dead Studios] Spheres of Might Open Playtest

[Galacktic]

The way my group and I interpreted it was that the time listed was how long to make a -batch- of items. Effectively we'd treat it like them memorizing spells at the start of the day, with the benefit of being able to prepare again later if need be and if they had the time. Because 30 minutes per item is absurd when you're making 11 formulae.

[Ilorin Lorati]

Ssalarn went on record saying that "full batch" isn't how the team wanted to handle Alchemy items since they didn't want the alchemist to have automatic access to their entire payload at the start of every day. This is brought up in the same link I posted above, on the second page.

[Ssalarn]

This was something spoken of quite a bit when playtest was still open, and Ssalarn stated that they were looking at scaling up production based on the HD of the crafter to 1 + 1/4 HD per creation time, which he calculated at about 2 hours for a Conscript. I'm not sure what happened.

Not sure why that didn't "stick", but I'm updating our errata back to the production formula of 1 + 1/4 discussed in the thread. I think we may have had an issue where the sphere was being updated in two different docs at the same time and the production change got eaten in another update.

[Domar]

It should not even be hypothetically possible for crafting your full allotment of items to take more than one hour under any circumstances. Even if an Alchemy user could craft items as a free action as part of tossing or applying them it wouldn't be overpowered. No toxin or non-legendary formula is abusive if at will.

[Ualaa]

Can you both sacrifice feats to gain talents and have a practitioner class?
hoiw would this work?

Quite a ways back, I was told that once you gain the first level in a Practitioner class, the feat for talent trade ceases.

You'd keep everything you had up to that point (having lost the general "odd-total-character-level" feats up to that point), but going forward you would not lose any more feats nor gain any more talents.

[Ualaa]

Snazzy! Any idea how long after the errata comes out will the Hero Labs files drop?

A few weeks ago, I asked Iron Golem about Spheres of Might, on the Lonewolf (Hero Lab) forums.

He basically said the current plan was to finish the assorted Spheres of Power splat books first, but if he was at a point where all the published sphere specific books had HL files, he would get a bit of a head start on the HL files for Spheres of Might.

[Ssalarn]

It should not even be hypothetically possible for crafting your full allotment of items to take more than one hour under any circumstances. Even if an Alchemy user could craft items as a free action as part of tossing or applying them it wouldn't be overpowered. No toxin or non-legendary formula is abusive if at will.

That's an opinion, but it's not one we'd agree with. Alchemy formulae have a key benefit over magical blasting- they can be used by anyone, not just the crafter. If you could constantly generate up to your total allowance in formulae without any time limitation, there would be no reason not to head into battle with an army of swallows tamed with the Beastmastery sphere, laden with alchemy bombs, and trained to use the bombard trick for constant 1 round field wipes. Even with the crafting time it's still a worrisomely good tactic, but the pacing of crafting time means that most campaigns aren't going to afford you the time to constantly be topped off for every combat, unless the situation would generally afford a spellcaster the same opportunity.

[khadgar567]

That's an opinion, but it's not one we'd agree with. Alchemy formulae have a key benefit over magical blasting- they can be used by anyone, not just the crafter. If you could constantly generate up to your total allowance in formulae without any time limitation, there would be no reason not to head into battle with an army of swallows tamed with the Beastmastery sphere, laden with alchemy bombs, and trained to use the bombard trick for constant 1 round field wipes. Even with the crafting time it's still a worrisomely good tactic, but the pacing of crafting time means that most campaigns aren't going to afford you the time to constantly be topped off for every combat, unless the situation would generally afford a spellcaster the same opportunity.

which kinda gives as specialiy prodigy via barrage destructive blast at turn one

[Dromuthra]

Not sure if this was covered before, but what happens if you take levels in a non-SoM class and trade bonus feats for a talent progression, and then later start taking levels in a SoM class? Do you continue to trade bonus feats, or do you stop once you have a class with a martial progression?

[EldritchWeaver]

Not sure if this was covered before, but what happens if you take levels in a non-SoM class and trade bonus feats for a talent progression, and then later start taking levels in a SoM class? Do you continue to trade bonus feats, or do you stop once you have a class with a martial progression?

Quite a ways back, I was told that once you gain the first level in a Practitioner class, the feat for talent trade ceases.

You'd keep everything you had up to that point (having lost the general "odd-total-character-level" feats up to that point), but going forward you would not lose any more feats nor gain any more talents.

The above quote I've found 4 posts before yours.

[RedMop]

Not sure why that didn't "stick", but I'm updating our errata back to the production formula of 1 + 1/4 discussed in the thread. I think we may have had an issue where the sphere was being updated in two different docs at the same time and the production change got eaten in another update.

Level 20 Conscript with alchemy spec, all in on formulae and toxin = 72 to be made.
So @ 20 1+1/4 would be 3 hours 00 min with a lab or 24/hour.
Assuming full bore with Cluster Toss, that is 6 rounds of combat per hour of alchemy time.
That seems ok. The Ring of Sustenance is still pretty much needed.

How about a talent that makes them last longer, say base +12 hours, and +12 more every 5 ranks? You could even make two, one for formulae and one for toxin.

[Dromuthra]

The above quote I've found 4 posts before yours.

Well that's mighty embarrassing. Thanks.

[Domar]

That's an opinion, but it's not one we'd agree with. Alchemy formulae have a key benefit over magical blasting- they can be used by anyone, not just the crafter. If you could constantly generate up to your total allowance in formulae without any time limitation, there would be no reason not to head into battle with an army of swallows tamed with the Beastmastery sphere, laden with alchemy bombs, and trained to use the bombard trick for constant 1 round field wipes. Even with the crafting time it's still a worrisomely good tactic, but the pacing of crafting time means that most campaigns aren't going to afford you the time to constantly be topped off for every combat, unless the situation would generally afford a spellcaster the same opportunity.

It would be better to close the minionmancy exploit than cripple every Alchemy expert that doesn't use it. Free action crafting time and items being so unstable they only last a round would fix both problems. An Alchemy expert struggles to keep up with a generic no class feature high caster using Destruction spending one spell point per round.

Level 10 Int 24

Alchemy
Round 1 (2 focuses)
Standard: Cluster Toss x3 Improved Alchemist Fire (6d6 fire DC 18)
Move: 1/3 Focusing Formula (regain first focus)
Swift: Snap Toss Improved Flash Powder (blind DC 22)

Round 2 (1 focus)
Standard: Cluster Toss x3 Improved Alchemist Fire (6d6 fire DC 18)
Move: 2/3 Focusing Formula (regain first focus)
Swift: Snap Toss Improved Flash Powder (blind DC 22)

Round 3+ (no focus)
Move: 3/3 Focusing Formula (regain first focus)
Standard: Cluster Toss x2 Improved Alchemist Fire (6d6 fire DC 18), Improved Flash Powder (blind DC 18)


Destruction
Talents and feats: Blinding Blast, Explosive Orb, Extended Range, Gather Energy, x3 Greater Blast, Orb Expert
Gear: +4 staff

Round 1+
Full: Blast (17d6 untyped DC 24, blind DC 24)


In 3 rounds the Alchemy user spent 12 items to match 3 spell points. His blinds last an extra round when they land but that's his only edge. Even if the blast did resistable damage, Alchemy's multiple small hits are crippled by even token energy resistance.

[Hellpyre]

It would be better to close the minionmancy exploit than cripple every Alchemy expert that doesn't use it. Free action crafting time and items being so unstable they only last a round would fix both problems. An Alchemy expert struggles to keep up with a generic no class feature high caster using Destruction spending one spell point per round.

I think what you're missing is that having Alchemy items be possible to pass off is a big thibg that differentiates the sphere. You can concentrate or spread out the power from it, and it has no real impact o your other actions. Having them last a single round but be a free action ups the average solo combat ability a bit, and drastically lowers the creative utility. An Alchemist could swing by in the morning and give a group of town guards a boost for their next fight with the same sphere he could use to boost her own. A spherecaster couldn't use the Destruction sphere for a fight 10 hours after she leaves. She could additionally invest in another sphere, but the one wouldn't do it.

Alchemy gives a wider breadth of options, but to a shallower degree. It isn't directly comprable, and it really shouldn't be.

[Wartex1]

The Alchemy Sphere should keep the prep time so it actually feels like having a set of pre-made items (since that's what it functionally does) instead of somehow making a deadly poison in a fraction of a second.

However, prep time should also be capped or lessened via say, a Quick Alchemy talent that changes it from 30 to 15 minutes without a lab, or 15 to 5 minutes with a lab. Spending an hour of prep time, like a spellcaster, should net a decent amount of power. Sure, an army of bombers is pretty strong, but the methods used to limit that tactic severely cripple everyone else.

[Ssalarn]

It would be better to close the minionmancy exploit than cripple every Alchemy expert that doesn't use it. Free action crafting time and items being so unstable they only last a round would fix both problems. [remainder cut for space]

It's not something we consider an exploit. Alchemy is intended to be a sphere that you can use for party support, including things like crafting up salves and alchemical items that you can pass out to your party members at the start of the day. Being able to regenerate between 1 and 6 items during a 15 minute rest is right on point for the pacing we want out of the sphere.

Your numbers are also presented in a way to downplay the actual effectiveness of the Alchemy attack routine. You're dealing 18d6 plus lighting the targets within the first two rings of effect on fire. On a 10th level character with a 24 INT your average crafting check is going to be 31 (+3 class skill +10 ranks +1 portable alchemist's lab + 7 Int +10.5 average roll), which means you'll be dealing 18d6 (no save for direct targets) + catch on fire to all targets within 5 ft. of the point of contact, 9d6 + catch on fire damage to all targets 10 ft. away from the point of contact, and 18 points of damage to all creatures within 15 feet. At the end of combat the caster is going to be permanently out of those three spell points while the Alchemy expert is going to be able to regen 3 uses per 15 minute rest they have available (or even 15 minutes travel with a simple cart or other vehicle). There's also value in the Alchemy user's ability to control the shape of their attack routine; you can create larger areas of effect with a shared center if you're fighting in a minion heavy battlefield, focus fire on a particular target with less danger to bystanders in a cityscape combat, and you can choose whether to focus your attacks on creatures to limit the number of affected targets that get saving throws, or target grid intersections for more reliable accuracy and placement.

It's also kind of disingenuous to compare a 4 talent and a feat attack routine to a routine that requires 8 talents, a feat, and an expensive magic item, while also assuming that you're not going to ever need to use your move action for anything other than spellcasting (which either lowers your damage significantly or boosts your daily resource expenditure). If you want to apply similar resource and system mastery to the Alchemy user you could grab talents like Fast Draw, Barrage, and Mobile Focus to change your attack routine to 4 imp. alchemist's fire + 1 imp. flash powder + movement and focus recovery, freeing up the talent spent on Cluster Toss for an additional formulae to increase your damage types or other talent option and still leaving the magic item wealth available for any of a variety of uses. Even if you just take Imp. Acid Flask and Imp. Bottled Lightning you've hit the same resource expenditure (but still have an expensive magic item open that the Destruction build doesn't) with three different damage types (technically 4) and a huge number of variations on the affected area of your attacks.

And that's just apples to apples. As you actually open up and look at real builds the power and potential of the various martial classes married with the spheres opens up your options and effectiveness even further. Whether that's a scholar with a super familiar helping throw or use items and providing other benefits, a conscript leveraging the full potential of their talents and abilities, or whatever else, the end result is going to be significant, versatile, and rechargeable.

Long story short, we're not going to be changing to free action craft times and 1 round durations. We like the fact that Alchemy is currently something that can be beneficial to a group rather than a solo-focused gimmick, and there's no evidence that Alchemy users without minion use are in any way gimped; to the contrary your own example shows that the Alchemy sphere has better single target DPR potential with more versatile AoE shape options while using less permanent resource. If we were going to make any changes here (and at this point that's unlikely) it wouldn't be in the direction of boosting Alchemy damage output.

[Domar]

I think what you're missing is that having Alchemy items be possible to pass off is a big thibg that differentiates the sphere. You can concentrate or spread out the power from it, and it has no real impact o your other actions. Having them last a single round but be a free action ups the average solo combat ability a bit, and drastically lowers the creative utility. An Alchemist could swing by in the morning and give a group of town guards a boost for their next fight with the same sphere he could use to boost her own. A spherecaster couldn't use the Destruction sphere for a fight 10 hours after she leaves. She could additionally invest in another sphere, but the one wouldn't do it.

Alchemy gives a wider breadth of options, but to a shallower degree. It isn't directly comprable, and it really shouldn't be.

That situational versatility comes at the expense of being able to meaningfully contribute to combat. The Alchemy expert spends his max allotment of formula to barely pull his weight in one fight and now the whole party needs to wait for him to craft a new set so he can fight again. Coupled with low accuracy, save DCs, short range and the need to stand still to chug Focusing Formula. The Alchemy sphere needs help.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Isn’t there a Destruction talent that lets you make shareable bombs out of your blast anyway? Small crystals that detonate when thrown?

[NomGarret]

I feel like we’re talking about the Alchemy sphere and an Alchemy expert interchangeably. How does it hold up in an Alchemy/Sniper or Alchemy/Fencing build? How does it hold up as a dip? Does it fall unacceptably behind relative to other single-sphere builds?

[Domar]

The Alchemy routine used a minimum of 10 talents and the Great Focus feat. The Alchemy damage is spread over multiple hits which means 10 points of energy resist cuts your damage in half. An enemy spellcaster casts a defensive spell and your damage drops to about zero. You would switch to debuffs but you can't because you prepped damage. Destruction guy just laughs and switches blast types completely invalidating a category of defence. If Destruction guy needs to move he just spends an extra point, he has 27. He won't have to move as much because he has triple the range.

The Destruction user was just phoning it in. Even with 1 + HD/4 crafting for 24 hours the Alchemy user I presented has less resources then the caster I presented.

Yes an Alchemy user can be better optimized, so can a caster. A human Incanter 1 / Thaumaturge 9 can toss party friendly 36d6 DC31 30ft burst Stone Blasts at 4 (5 if you need to exclude 4+ targets) spell points a pop. The only gear he needs for this is a plus 4 staff. If Enhance Equipment works on staffs (it's also a quarterstaff so its a valid target) it only needs plus one and the blast is stronger. Your familiar is a willing backlash target so you can use Forbidden Lore without significant risk. Party friendly 24d6 DC31 15ft burst Stone Blasts cost 0 points.

[Adam Meyers]

So you all know, the Champions of the Spheres playtest is just about finished. We added a new section onto the end of the document as well as several new feats, which we would love to get feedback on!

[Dromuthra]

Oh man, the Mirrored Soul is so cool. Does the eidolon still get evolutions?

[khadgar567]

They all look good but i wish battle compenion get more might talents( is battle companion stack with magic one). Plus i love the rover tradition. Is rover tradition counts as three drawbacks or more for bonus spell points?

[Ssalarn]

The Alchemy routine used a minimum of 10 talents and the Great Focus feat.

Uhm, no it didn't? You have Improved Alchemist's Fire, Cluster Toss, Focusing Formula, Snap Toss, and Improved Flash Powder. I did fail to account for Snap Toss in my earlier assessment, but I don't know where you're coming up with needing 5 additional talents for that routine. A non-conscript would want 3 more formulae just to boost their reserves for the routine, but that just opens up more variations in damage type.

The Alchemy damage is spread over multiple hits which means 10 points of energy resist cuts your damage in half. An enemy spellcaster casts a defensive spell and your damage drops to about zero. You would switch to debuffs but you can't because you prepped damage.

Or you could use the three talents the Destruction sphere user spent on their one routine to diversify your damage types by preparing a variety of different damage types, which will also conveniently give you even more AoE templates and raise your maximum number of prepped formula.

Destruction guy just laughs and switches blast types completely invalidating a category of defence. If Destruction guy needs to move he just spends an extra point, he has 27. He won't have to move as much because he has triple the range. The Destruction user was just phoning it in. Even with 1 + HD/4 crafting for 24 hours the Alchemy user I presented has less resources then the caster I presented.

If you're going to make claims about a specific number of resources, they should be backed by an actual build. Spell points on a standard caster with a 24 Int are going to be 17 at 10th level. Of course you can get extra spell points from drawbacks and casting traditions, but that pokes more holes in the build.

Yes an Alchemy user can be better optimized, so can a caster.

Considering that this started by comparing an unaugmented Alchemy routine to a Destruction routine that pulled talents from multiple sourcebooks and used an expensive magic item, I agree. But the application of system mastery isn't going to prove that Alchemy's weak, it's going to emphasize the benefits the sphere has on an actual character.

A human Incanter 1 / Thaumaturge 9 can toss party friendly 36d6 DC31 30ft burst Stone Blasts at 4 spell points a pop. The only gear he needs for this is a plus 4 staff. If Enhance Equipment works on staffs (its also a quarterstaff so its a valid target) it only needs plus one and the blast is stronger. Your familiar is a willing backlash target so you can use Forbidden Lore without significant risk. 24d6 DC31 15ft burst Stone Blasts cost 0 points.

And a human scholar 10 can rain death from above using the routine already mentioned while riding around on a rampaging, pouncing, hyper-intelligent murder beast with eidolon evolutions (she can have most of the necessary talents just from Problem Solver and the Daring Scholar martial tradition). Or a Blacksmith can craft a bunch of alchemist's bullets and obliterate the enemy's equipment with exploding sunder shots amplified by the Barrage or Sniper sphere before fixing all the loot right back up after the battle. So on and so forth. And that's just for characters who are really focusing in on Alchemy as their primary schtick. When used as a support and utility sphere your options open up even further; at that level you can play a conscript who uses Snap Toss to debuff the opponent before rushing in for a 5 hit combo and then using Mobile Striker to safely disengage and prevent full attack reprisal. Or a scholar who flies around on her custom-built chimera firing trick arrows and using Snap Toss plus Improved Tanglefoot Bags to ground flying enemies and maintain aerial dominance, while each of her allies has a Panacea tucked into a pocket just in case they find themselves in a bad situation.

Ultimately, Alchemy is intended as a utility and support sphere to broaden options for martial characters. The sphere includes AoE, hit point restoration, condition removal, and a wide variety of debuffs that are applicable to a broad number of situations. If you want to use it as a primary source of damage, you've got multiple items that offer a variety of damaging effects in multiple damage types and AoE shapes with the ability to burn through a large number of attacks quickly enough to maintain competitive damage through an encounter, and the ability to restock afterwards. It has a variety of benefits on its damage effects including things like denying saves to primary targets, area coverage, multiple damage types, or DoT. You're getting a better per talent return than you get with Destruction alongside more versatility within the sphere. If pulling out the Destroyer's Handbook, dipping Incanter, spending character resources on a familiar, spamming Forbidden Lore, buying an expensive magic item, and dumping nearly twice as many talents into Destruction means you deal more damage against enemies with energy resistance matching your prepped alchemical items, then that's not really an issue. Your Incanter/Thaumaturge needs that damage because it's spent 7 of it's 9 talents from character levels on that one trick; a martial character has other effective options to fall back on and more base talents to leverage towards more tricks since Alchemy took fewer talents to set up in the first place. Sure the Incanter/Thaumaturge can gain extra talents, but so can any other spheres class; that's going to be a net neutral comparison.

Oh man, the Mirrored Soul is so cool. Does the eidolon still get evolutions?

Not this iteration. Since we did the archetype up as a dual sphere character, it gets form talents instead.

[Triskavanski]

I didn't notice that an alchemy focused character would take so long to create their items, even with an alchemist lab. That is a bit long and it does require you to drag around a rather expensive fragile item around everywhere you go, set it up and spend an hour to make 4 things. If you don't, you only make 2 things an hour.

Its not so bad early on, but in later levels, that does sting a bit. But hey, at least someone else can use the items while you spend hours trying to make them.



I think it actually wouldn't be so bad to have a long crafting time /if/ they didnt' expire in 24 hours.

Because well that gets confusing too. If I wake up at 8am and craft four items, I've got an item that is made at 8:15, another at 8:30, another at 8:45 and one more at 9am. If I spend another hour to make four more, not only do I have the party annoyed at me now for delaying them, but I'll have four more items at 9:15, 9:30, 9:45 and 10 am. IF we adventure for two hours, and I've used up the 8:15 item and the 9am 9:30 items, then made an item that was finished being created at 12:15, then we adventure again...

That is some pretty complicated things to keep track of.




But on another note here.. The Mortal Chemist Alchemist.
How in the bloodly blue blazes do you use the brew potion ability? By raw, the mortal chemist can't do anything with it. Even if he could, there is a lot of infusions that do not work.

[Ssalarn]

But on another note here.. The Mortal Chemist Alchemist.
How in the bloodly blue blazes do you use the brew potion ability? By raw, the mortal chemist can't do anything with it. Even if he could, there is a lot of infusions that do not work.

Why do you think that?

"Brew Potion: At 1st level, the mortal chemist gains Brew
Potion as a bonus feat, and a formula book containing 2 1st
level alchemist formulae. The mortal chemist may brew a potion
for any alchemist formulae he knows. Each time the mortal
chemist gains a class level, he learns 1 additional alchemist
formulae a standard alchemist of his level would have access to.
A mortal chemist can also add formulae to his book just like a
wizard adds spells to his spellbook, using the same costs, pages,
and time requirements. A mortal chemist can study a wizard’s
spellbook to learn any formula that is equivalent to a spell the
spellbook contains. A wizard, however, cannot learn spells from
a formula book. A mortal chemist does not need to decipher
arcane writings before copying them."

You gain Brew Potion as a bonus feat. You get a formulae book just like a standard alchemist. You can brew any potion in the book. It does look like it could use the "An alchemist can brew potions of any formulae he knows (up to 3rd level), using his alchemist level as his caster level" line for clarity, but I suspect that was overlooked since the text was supposed to be an addition to, not a replacement of, the base class ability. I'll add a line to the end that states "This otherwise functions like and counts as the base alchemist's brew potion ability".

[Wartex1]

For the formula book maybe just state that the Mortal Chemist gets the same one as the regular Alchemist, but cannot use it to make infusions, only potions.

Or something like that.

Also, any news on updates to the Spheres of Might PDF like a Skald Archetype or guidelines on what to do with class features that modify Spellcasting when trading Spellcasting for martial discipline?

[Eldaran]

Yeah, the time for alchemical items is kind of absurd. I use this house rule "When crafting Alchemy sphere poison and alchemical items you can prepare all your daily uses of items once per day in 30 minutes, or 15 minutes with an alchemy lab."

[Dromuthra]

Not this iteration. Since we did the archetype up as a dual sphere character, it gets form talents instead.

That makes sense; you might want to state that under either Soul Eidolon or Summon Mastery, since it isn't currently there.

[Domar]

Max prepped is 1/2 your ranks in Craft (alchemy) (minimum 1) + the number of formulae talents you possess. 12 items at level 10 needs 7 formulae talents. Great Focus needs 2 base spheres. You have a Blacksmith spending thousands of gold per fight on crafting ammo at level 10 and you thought a +4 staff was excessive.

Human Incanter (Destruction & Omnimental Familiar) 1 / Thaumaturge 9

Cha 22 (buffed to 28)

Drawbacks
Magical Signs
Prepared Caster (Destruction 20, Enhance 6)
Somatic Casting x2
Verbal Casting

Talents:
Destruction
Extended Range
Gather Energy
Greater Blast x2
Selective Blast
Explosive Orb
Shock Blast
Stone Blast

Enhance
Deep Enhancement
Mental Enhancement
Drawbacks
Delinquent Enhancements
Personal Magics

Feats
Sphere Focus (Destruction)
Orb Expert
Energy Specialization (stone)
Contingency (a blast centered on yourself when engaged in melee)
Enpower Spell
Noble Scion of War
Improved Initiative
Extra Magical Talent (Enhance)
Free

Traits
Reactionary

Gear
+1 staff (Destruction) (buff to +4) 2000 GP

Next level dip Warp Wizard
Still lots of room for improvement but I just tossed this together in a few minutes.
By level 20 Rocks Fall Everybody Dies opens every fight with a hundred dice.
I wouldn't bring RFED to most tables and I don't need Alchemy to reach this level, I just think it it needs a boost at the lower end. Also Barraging Formulae means Cluster Toss is kind of a trap option, that should probably be abreast.