Skill Power/Theme Power swaps

[darkbard]

A character must have at least one of each type of power of its class(es) (AW, E, D, U) when possible, correct? This comes up most often for hybridized characters. My question: Does this mean that a non-hybridized character cannot take a Skill Utility power or Theme power until level 6? And a hybridized character cannot take a Skill Utility power or Theme Utility power until level 10?

I mean, of course, without utilizing the Skill Power feat.

[tiornys]

I'm away from resources so I can't double check, but I believe the rule you've referenced applies only to hybrids.

[darkbard]

I have it drilled into my head because of hybrids, but now I can't think where to look for the basic rule.

[Meta]

I have it drilled into my head because of hybrids, but now I can't think where to look for the basic rule.

I think tiornys is right. The rule only applies to hybrids. Any single/multi class characters can pick any number of skill powers.

[MwaO]

It applies to everyone. Page 90 of RC. Note: Skill Power feat lets people take Skill Powers at level 2 anyway.

[masteraleph]

Also worth noting that, RAW, you may be able to take those powers depending on your class. For example: Clerics get Healing Word, which is a Cleric Utility power. So in theory they could take a swap at level 2 (YMMV with your DM). A Cleric with Turn Undead should also be able to take a Theme Encounter Attack power at level 1 (since RAW it's an attack power)- see the bottom of page 89.

[darkbard]

Ah! Those are considerations I hadn't ... considered?

[Beoric]

Does anyone know what purpose that rule is supposed to serve, and what it would break if you ignored it?

[Meta]

Huh. That's really weird, but neat. I should probably get the RC.

I feel like it's hard to truly "break" a build by reordering when one gets certain utilities.

[MwaO]

Does anyone know what purpose that rule is supposed to serve, and what it would break if you ignored it?

Purpose is that as an example a Resourceful Magician can't retrain all Bard Daily powers into Wizard ones. Or let a Vampire trade out all their utilities. Or Eternal Seeker/Soul of the World weirdness.

[MwaO]

Also worth noting that, RAW, you may be able to take those powers depending on your class. For example: Clerics get Healing Word, which is a Cleric Utility power. So in theory they could take a swap at level 2 (YMMV with your DM). A Cleric with Turn Undead should also be able to take a Theme Encounter Attack power at level 1 (since RAW it's an attack power)- see the bottom of page 89.

Except that involves literally deciding Turn Undead is an Encounter Attack power rather than an Attack power that's usable on an Encounter.

I.e. Choice to decide to read the rules in a literal manner is not generally considered RAW and breaks things elsewhere.

[Kurald Galain]

Except that involves literally deciding Turn Undead is an Encounter Attack power rather than an Attack power that's usable on an Encounter.

Yes, because that is what "encounter power" means.

Rules discussions get rather silly once you get people arguing that e.g. you're using a weapon attack power but somehow not attacking with your weapon.

[Beoric]

Purpose is that as an example a Resourceful Magician can't retrain all Bard Daily powers into Wizard ones. Or let a Vampire trade out all their utilities. Or Eternal Seeker/Soul of the World weirdness.

Ok, I get that class is king, and there is a philosophical objection to letting someone hybrid in a class just for the class features. But will it really break things if, for instance, a Resourceful Magician has four Wizard Daily's instead of three?

Particularly if you only made an exception for theme, skill or racial powers. Is it really necessary to make you wait until 6th level to take a second level theme power?

[Kurald Galain]

Ok, I get that class is king, and there is a philosophical objection to letting someone hybrid in a class just for the class features. But will it really break things if, for instance, a Resourceful Magician has four Wizard Daily's instead of three?

It looks like it won't break anything. There's probably an obscure combo somewhere that comes online a few levels earlier, but that's it.

[MwaO]

Yes, because that is what "encounter power" means.

Rules discussions get rather silly once you get people arguing that e.g. you're using a weapon attack power but somehow not attacking with your weapon.

So you're okay with Clerics not getting an encounter attack power other than Turn Undead at 1st level because PHB page 28 says they only get one? And PHB doesn't call out that Turn Undead is in addition to the normal choice of an encounter power? And RC doesn't override this?

You want to be literal, that's fine. Just be aware that it breaks a lot of things if you're consistently literal about it.

[Kurald Galain]

So you're okay with Clerics not getting an encounter attack power other than Turn Undead at 1st level because PHB page 28 says they only get one?

Of course not. Specific trumps general, after all. But then this strikes me as a deliberate straw man argument anyway ("surely you don't believe <something nonsensical>?")

[darkbard]

Of course not. Specific trumps general, after all. But then this strikes me as a deliberate straw man argument anyway ("surely you don't believe <something nonsensical>?")

I'm not sure MwaO's argument is a straw man. This isn't a case of S vs. G. It's a case of consistency with regards to literal RAW.

To the point of my original post: I think it's pretty clear RAW that, barring use of the Skill Power feat, one cannot swap out a class Utility Power for a Race/Theme/Skill Power until 6th level (at least). That said, like others have opined, I don't think it breaks anything (except in the most corner of cases, and even then maybe not) to dispense with this rule (houserule it) for single classed characters.

Where things might get messy, however, is for hybrid characters.

[Meta]

I'm not sure MwaO's argument is a straw man. This isn't a case of S vs. G. It's a case of consistency with regards to literal RAW.

To the point of my original post: I think it's pretty clear RAW that, barring use of the Skill Power feat, one cannot swap out a class Utility Power for a Race/Theme/Skill Power until 6th level (at least). That said, like others have opined, I don't think it breaks anything (except in the most corner of cases, and even then maybe not) to dispense with this rule (houserule it) for single classed characters.

Where things might get messy, however, is for hybrid characters.

I don't have the RC, so my DM and I were left with the rather lacking example given in PHB3 as a guideline, but we concluded that it made sense flavorfully that you could take skill powers at any level (they're generic powers that anyone could learn with a little training) but you couldn't take a second utility from your hybrid class before you took a first from your other. Doing otherwise would mean you're not really hybridizing.

So my Warlock|Swordmage can take Arcane Mutterings at 2, Insightful Warning at 6, Ethereal Sidestep at 10, and either a skill power, MC power, or SM power at 16, but not a Warlock one. No more Warlock powers until I have a Swordmage one.

[darkbard]

we concluded that it made sense flavorfully that you could take skill powers at any level (they're generic powers that anyone could learn with a little training) but you couldn't take a second utility from your hybrid class before you took a first from your other.

This seems a reasonable, and flavorful, houserule. It's just a bit strange to me that such a houserule is needed in the first place. I get the point about not really hybridizing if you only have a Utility from one class, but what you propose looks fair to me.

It also seems strange to me that a single classed character wouldn't, RAW, be able to take a Racial/Theme/Skill Utility at level 2 without spending a feat to do so.