The Last Jedi - The First Trailer - ANewMovie -DisneyStrikesBack - TheReturnofTheCast

[BWR]

I am not impressed. Some of that may very well be lingering disappointment from TFA, but I doubt this is going to be much better. I liked literally none of the characters introduced in TFA and getting more of them will only start things off badly.
Some of it is how Luke obviously just gave up after screwing up an apprentice. For all the faults of EU, when one of his apprentices fell, he took it on the chin and tried to make things better.
And a lot of it is how it seems that this will be yet another remake of a much better movie while trying to convince people it isn't.

[Zevox]

Rey walks out of a cavern after a strenuous trial, then we see speeders fight walkers, then we see rehashes of the X and A wings fight TIE fighters with rehash Nebulon B's.

There isn't a single damn original concept in the entire video.

I don't see any issue with the vehicles - this is still supposed to be the same galaxy, and the time jump wasn't huge, it only makes sense that they would have the same or similar starfighters and the like. And I do like my starship battles, so you won't ever hear me complaining about those. What bothers me is recycling plot points and conflicts, like The Force Awakens' main source of conflict being that the villains now have an even bigger, more powerful Death Star. Or Rey being another unlikely hero from a desert planet with powers she isn't initially aware of that she inherited from a family she barely knows anything about. Or Kylo being another fallen Jedi who wiped out almost all of them and would like to finish the job.

If The Last Jedi can buck that trend and present an actually new story for Rey, Finn, and the rest, it could definitely still make me a fan. If it's just going to make Rey even further into Luke 2.0, especially if it does so while, say, having Finn get captured at the end of the film and encased in carbonite (or an equivalent) as punishment for his defecting? There's a good chance I end up deciding to write off the sequels as a waste of time and just look forward to the side stories in the future.

Some of it is how Luke obviously just gave up after screwing up an apprentice. For all the faults of EU, when one of his apprentices fell, he took it on the chin and tried to make things better.

Yeah, I'm trying not to let my familiarity with the EU influence my judgment of the new movies too much, but I can't help but feel the same way. Seeing Luke soldier on to establish his new Jedi Order in the EU despite all of the difficulty he encountered along the way, however mixed in quality it could be, felt like what should have happened after Return of the Jedi. If what's going on in the new continuity is that Luke just gave up and went into hiding after Kylo fell, and not that he's off on some secret mission that could actually help somehow, well, that's a whole lot less satisfying as a story on a basic level. And unfortunately, my money at the moment is on the former.

[Jayngfet]

I don't see any issue with the vehicles - this is still supposed to be the same galaxy, and the time jump wasn't huge, it only makes sense that they would have the same or similar starfighters and the like.

The time jump from ROTJ to TFA is actually significantly greater than the jump from ROTJ to ANH. The jump in ships should have been the same as an Arc-170 to an X-Wing. Or a V-Wing or Jedi fighter to a TIE fighter.

[SuperPanda]

After letting my thoughts on the trailer sit a little bit more I'm leaning more and more towards thinking this is going to be the "Into Darkness" of nuWars.

I remember way back early into Abrams' reboot of Star Trek that when the second film was first announced the team declared it would be "Wrath of Khan but better." I can think of no one who thought that was a good idea for many rather obvious reasons, but the one unstated was that a story like that needs at least some degree of subtlety. Everything about Force Awakens and Star Trek 2009 was big, loud, shiny and yes - freaking beautiful. The visuals on their own are astounding, the actors are certainly trying to work hard and are alternately stoic or hamming it up so much that you can't help but enjoy it.

Still with everything so over the top there isn't any room for the quiet moments that you need to make Wrath of Khan or Empire Strikes Back work. Luke confronting Vader isn't amazing to watch because of the special effects but because of the pacing in the scene. The slow menace and the apparent lack of effort on his part. Nothing about Kylo Ren is menacing after Force Awakens. The emperor as a shadowy overlord was menacing because he had Vader bowing before him, the implication was that he was that much greater than Vader himself. Kylo bowing before someone is about as impressive as C-3PO bowing before someone.

Abrams has alot of talent in the "big" places - his visuals are amazing, his gets the "fun" banter of modern movies down, he gets awesome action sequences. For all the hate I have for Into Darkness the Space-Walk boarding scene is freaking cool and very well done - almost nothing about the plot makes sense but its enjoyable enough if you simply don't think. That's what I predict he'll give us. Big, loud, lens-flared, beautiful cinema with great action sequences and about as much narrative cohesion as the alphabet song. It will get you from A to Z but it will somehow skip the Y.

[Morty]

Looks like it's not going to be a rehash of Empire Strikes Back... probably. I liked TFA, unlike apparently everyone in here, but the plot really did go along the exact same lines as the first film.

The "time for the Jedi to end" thing can mean a lot of things, but it sounds promising. The Jedi Order really weren't very good at their jobs in the prequels, and something evidently went wrong again when Luke tried to revive it. Saying that he "gave up after screwing up an apprentice" strikes me as dishonest. Edgelord Supreme also known as Kylo Ren didn't just turn evil. He kind of murdered every other of Luke's apprentices and wrecked the nascent new Jedi Order.

[SuperPanda]

Your not alone Morty. I enjoyed The Force Awakens despite all its flaws much in the same way that I still love Star Trek 2009 despite all its flaws.

One of those flaws was how it tried to be A New Hope but bigger, louder, flashier, and more awesome. I'd say it succeeded in doing just that. It traded the quieter, more human, moments for far more impressive SFX and "Bigger" set pieces all around. Star Killer Base (SKB) is a perfect metaphor for the film. Its big, its impressive, it creates so many questions. Yet despite being bigger and more impressive SKB fails to create the impact that the Death Star did both when it is used and when it is destroyed.

When SKB fires its main guns we get the wow shots of it charging and firing similar to when the Death Star destroyed Alderan, and they are bigger, prettier, and far more impressive. We get reaction shots of the planet - we actually see the people who are about to die in massive crowds. For the Death Star we only saw the princess's reaction. By seeing her face up close we get to see the fear, panic, and grief of the event in a way which humanizes it more naturally. With SKB we theoretically should have a bigger reaction because we actually saw the people who died - but we don't because we lack anyone to empathize with. We are left to marvel at the awesome graphics and the raw power of the weapon instead of the very human tragedy of its use.

If this was used in a way which appeared intentional - if it fit into a greater theme of dehumanizing violence and the need for bigger and bigger spectacles to keep the galaxy in check - that could be downright brilliant. Nothing in Force Awakens suggests that was the intent though.

For all my nit-picking complaining, here are the rest of my thoughts on The Force Awakens:

The SFX are amazingly beautiful. The scope feels suitable epic for a Star Wars movie, it does feel like the galaxy has more in it than Tatooine. Finn's story creates some interesting implications for the many faceless mooks in the series - He introduced room to explore some very interesting stories which the "clone army" plot of the prequels intentionally closed off to keep the morality of Star Wars nice and simple. Rey was fine - honestly she was no more annoying than any average chosen one archetype out there. It was big, it was pretty, it was fun, it raised just enough questions for happy nerd discussions about the universe without offering any hint that there was a correct answer. It felt like Star Wars to me.

I have friends who think of Star Wars more how I used to feel about Trek. They felt that Star Wars had a something to it which made it deeper. The OT hinted at a deep religion, a complex lore, a vast universe - all while never actually showing any of it. The Prequels tried to go back and provide answers to many of those questions - and virtually every answer they provided is soundly hated while many questions they raise are more neutral with the fans. The Force Awakens captured that OT balance of "world building" without actually building a world which created the gorgeously hollywood world of Star Wars I wanted to see again. Those of my friends who wanted a more complex and deep Star Wars were very disapointed. The opposite of those has been true with me and J.J. Trek. Those of my friends who wanted to see a gorgeous Trek aesthetic with fun actors and fun movies have absolutely loved JJ Trek. I wanted to see a deeper story than the film makers wanted to make.

I don't predict that Last Jedi will have a deep story. I'm worried that they'll try to "top" Empire Strikes Back because that is what ruined Star Trek Into Darkness for me. If Into Darkness had removed the Khan reveal and the Wrath of Khan "homage" scenes it would have been a fun stupid movie. Instead because I knew that the film makers thought they were improving on Wrath of Khan I couldn't help comparing the two and thus growing to dislike the new film because of how clumsy it felt compared to the old on.

I think that is exactly what most people feel about The Force Awakens - its so obviously a send up to A New Hope that people compare them and realize that ANH is simply a better made movie despite being much older. Its like watching your local high school's performance of Romeo and Juliet a week after seeing it done by the Royal Shakespeare company at the Globe Theater - it dosen't matter how good those kids are you'll still find yourself comparing them to the masters and as a result finding flaws which otherwise might not have bothered you.

[Hopeless]

For me TFA was the first movie where I could point out the mistakes!

Seriously from Poe Dameron should have been kept involved so he would recognise the Falcon leading to him flying it to meet Han with Rey keeping it operational demonstrating her remarkable mechanical talents as demonstrated the Falcon needed a co-pilot and you would still keep Finn involved but we would have our successor to the OT cast right there in front of us and it would have developed naturally and well!

Han takes them to Takodana learn about Maz a former student of Luke's who found the lightsaber he left behind on Bespin.

Han contacts Leia leading her to leave New Hosnian right before Star Killer Base turns up.

The literal prototype Death Star its main weapon allows it to recharge its hyperdrive by drawing energy from the system's sun however the process devastates any world or fleet caught between the sun and SKB.

There explains where its origin, shows it is different from the Death Star and gets across how dangerous it is and how insane the First Order is to actually use a weapon even Emperor Palpatine and Grand Moff Tarkin balked at!

Having escaped the carnage Leia turns up with Admiral Ackbar aboard the soon to be decommissioned Home One along with a ceremonial wing of Starfighters in time to catch Kylo raiding Takodana trying to recover the missing part of R2D2's memory core which holds the route to the Jedi Temple Luke retreated to.

We learn First Order Loyalists in the New Republic arranged for the attack that wiped out Luke's new academy, we also learn Kylo was tricked into carrying a tracking beacon so they could follow him straight to it.

Because Luke wanted to keep his new jedi order out of the bureaucratic mess that afflicted the Republic Jedi this was used to turn him into a threat the First Order Loyalists used to strike at the one threat they truly feared.

Luke realising the New Republic had been infiltrated left into exile taking as many of the survivors he could although officially they're all supposed to have died except for him.

Luke arranged for Han to deliver an inoperable R2 to Leia eventually arranging for the missing part of R2's core to return to her once he felt ready.

Sadly what we got was a mess!

As for the trailer... they really should have learned from the mistakes from TFA!

They really should kick that mystery box to the curb and stop hoarding secrets... they really need to start releasing information on this new era rather than keep us guessing as it stands this isn't looking good!

Yes I'm hoping I'm wrong too but I actually liked the teaser from TFA!

[Scowling Dragon]

Ah yes. Poe. The character sacrificed in order to make Rey look good...

Like she almost highjacks his story really. He's pretty much inoperable as a protagonist after the last story had nothing for him to succeed at.

[Cikomyr]

Well as a person who utterly hates Ray as a character, I can sort of understand what he meant, if just phrased improperly.

No Disney won't kill off the Jedi. Its too marketable a phrase. Jedi is near synonymous with Star Wars.

But Ray if not meeting the literal definition of mary sue, is a boring dull character that did not grow and has no space for growth as a person. Her entire last story was one of near effortless progress and unstopability. And one could accuse this trend of ignoring proper character growth in exchange for somehow making up for past sociatal injustices.

So he may feel concerned with the idea that maybe Disney is pushing for an idea that somehow Disney wants to represent the extinction of the Jedi order as a good thing because it ties together with previous cultural problems somehow.

Now I disagree with this profusely, but Ray is still a garbage character, and people dismiss any criticsm of her or her arc with the accusation of people who hate her having a bais against women. When in reality its a bais against any character that seems almost like a self insert fanfic.

Except that 3/4 of the rant made the case that Rey is a Mary Sue BECAUSE she is a woman, which is some of the crappiest anti-women strawman argument going among the seediest and sexiest parts of the internet.

He could have made his rant about Rey's Mary Sueness without attacking her gender at every other sentences.

You could make the argument that Rey is a Mary Sue. I disagree, but i understand where it comes from.

But making the argument that they made Rey a Mary Sue because she is a woman and thus "they" want to promote some conspirationist Feminist agenda? Thats Return of Kings crapfest.

[Scowling Dragon]

Except that 3/4 of the rant made the case that Rey is a Mary Sue BECAUSE she is a woman

The argument I understood is that Ray is a mary sue because the Politics of modern time promote this type of character.

The argument isn't that "Well if this character was male they wouldn't be a mary sue" its that "This character was made a mary sue, in order to right some kind of societal wrong".

Its not really conspiritorial. Its a common trend in our current years. I think its a terrible trend and writing has really suffered as a result.

Edit: Not the trend of Female characters. The Trend of bad writing.

[SuperPanda]

Except that 3/4 of the rant made the case that Rey is a Mary Sue BECAUSE she is a woman, which is some of the crappiest anti-women strawman argument going among the seediest and sexiest parts of the internet.

The argument I understood is that Ray is a mary sue because the Politics of modern time promote this type of character.

Its not really conspiritorial. Its a common trend in our current years. I think its a terrible trend and writing has really suffered as a result.

I think you're both right, probably both agree, and yet are speaking from different perspectives looking at the same thing.

One argument for why Rey is a bad character is that the powers that be are trying to change the world by presenting unrealistically competent characters to show people that "girls can be cool" and that their social message and agenda prevents decent story telling - therefore things suck because of a girl protagonist.

A similar argument for why Rey is a bad character is that society has changed to the point that films are getting alot more flak for things like representation than they ever did in the past. Big studios are trying to adapt to this but are doing so in a reactionary way. In trying to please their audience and avoid criticism they are terrified to let the character be a three dimensional person and as such they become a bland mary-sue.

These two look the same at first but the first presumes several things which are intrinsically "anti-women" such as that a hyper competent female is "unrealistic" to begin with or that "girls can be cool" is somehow a subversive message instead of pure common sense.

Both of these arguments ignore the argument which assumes the least number of variables and has plenty of evidence backing it up: Rey is a poorly written character because the writers didn't do a very good job. With the possible exception of Finn, and even there his character is pretty thin, none of the characters in The Force Awakens were particularly well written. The question was more about how much they irritated people. Personally, Kylo Ren's acting bothered me an order of magnitude more than Rey's hyper-competence in the finale.

While there is a trend towards female protagonists in Holywood right now this can be traced rather nicely to what films are profitable. Social Media also has exponential increased the hype engines the studios use for marketing (evidenced by this thread) and the potential for backlash/outrage at perceived slights. It requires far fewer leaps of logic to assume that the extremely cautious film corps would seek to capitalize on the ability to generate Hype while minimizing the potential for social media backlash wherever they can.

TV and Film sometimes does push an agenda. Sometimes like the Star Trek: TOS - that agenda can be pushed subtly through diversity. Sometimes that agenda gets pushed obnoxiously. Most of the time the agenda is "get as much of the customer's money as possible." The bigger budget the film is, the more likely its looking for money more than any other agenda. Oscar bait movies also tend to be pushier with agendas than summer films.


Edit: Leaving my reply - but after seeing your edit Scowling Dragon I'm pretty sure we agree 100% already.

[Scowling Dragon]

I agree with you Super Panda and to clarify my position:
Rey isn't a bad character because shes unrealistic. Its that she's just too competent to present interesting tension and character growth.

As for the poorly writtenness: Yes. All these types of characters are just poorly written. My point being is that I often enough find to my irritation this type of archetype being given a pass for reasons of social adjustment.

I have no doubt that the reasning behind this is just cold hard cash...So yeah we agree nearly 100%

[Morty]

Sure would be nice to have a thread about Star Wars without debates about whether or not Rey is a Mary Sue.

[Scowling Dragon]

Sure would be nice to have a thread about Star Wars without debates about whether or not Rey is a Mary Sue.

Yeah I know! Why did she have to be so poorly written!

[Mando Knight]

The time jump from ROTJ to TFA is actually significantly greater than the jump from ROTJ to ANH. The jump in ships should have been the same as an Arc-170 to an X-Wing. Or a V-Wing or Jedi fighter to a TIE fighter.

It's not that unreasonable: real-life military vehicles saw a rapid development leading up to and during WWII, tapering off near the end of the Cold War, and most aircraft lines currently in service even in the US have service lives of several decades (including upgrades and variants like ANH's T-65 X-Wing to TFA's T-70).

As a reference for capital ships, the CV-6 USS Enterprise served as a carrier for 9 years, the CVN-65 Enterprise lasted 50.

Ah yes. Poe. The character sacrificed in order to make Rey look good...

Like she almost highjacks his story really. He's pretty much inoperable as a protagonist after the last story had nothing for him to succeed at.

His role in TFA was actually expanded to what it was in the final script. Originally, he was just going to die rather than survive to serve as the super-ace face of the Resistance's fighter corps. He's basically Wedge with more screen time.

[J-H]

Yeah, Poe was odd.
I thought his name was Paul (with a British accent on it) until I started reading posts after watching the movie.

In the background fighter battle over the Mas cantina fight, I noticed one X-wing doing a bunch of acrobatics and getting a bunch of kills, and figured it was probably him. Maybe the Force is strong in him?

The only character from TFA that I would want to read a book about (for more history) is Kyle Wren. Kylo Ren. Whatever. Of the Knights of Ren, which are mentioned nowhere else. And he's the only one. And he follows a giant ugly Sith lord named Snopes.

Worldbuilding in TFA was sub-par.

[Scowling Dragon]

For some reason I got the names Confused. I meant Finn. He has character growth in the story, but his role is pretty much over because he was established as a joke in Episode 7.

[Giggling Ghast]

Man, you guys are a bunch of downers.

I think maybe Luke's proposing the creation of a new order that combines the philosophies of Jedi and Sith. This would potentially end the cycle of young Jedi falling to the Dark Side and the Sith constantly destroying themselves.

[Anonymouswizard]

For some reason I got the names Confused. I meant Finn. He has character growth in the story, but his role is pretty much over because he was established as a joke in Episode 7.

Grumble grumble Finn should totally be back in a supporting role.

I also think that in some ways TFA should have been Finn's story in the way TLJ is obviously going to be Rey's. He had an interesting setup, a guy raised as a soldier to believe in a cause who has a crisis of faith and defects once his friend dies. I think if he'd got a bit more focus and the story had been on 'Rey, Finn, and Poe, the new Star Wars crew' it would have been a lot better as a film, and then at the end he ends up in a coma and Rey goes off to train as a Jedi with Luke and Poe stays as the Resistance fighter ace.

Now I understand why Rey was the protagonist, and wish that Disney had not written her in such a way that I didn't wish her story had focused on someone else. I've seen well written female characters, and plan to start Honor Harrington soon because I've heard it's a good sci-fi story with a female lead, I just don't think Rey was a good character. Maybe The Last Jedi will redeem her, I'll only go and see it in cinemas if friends invite me because I'm not overly into Star Wars anymore.

[Deathkeeper]

Blah blah balance, without us it wouldn't be so bad, sins of the father, our time is past, blah.

Oh come on Disney. If you look into the Force, you should see something vaguely more interesting and sophisticated than just the balance of darkness and light. For all his monomythic flaws, Lucas was never that strangled by stale tropes.

But bargain basement philosophy aside, it'll be nice actually seeing Hamill on screen again, embittered veteran or no. Finn still be unconscious is nice, we're not brushing past to him being completely fine after a time skip.

Define "stale tropes" because the prequels were about The Chosen One and a secret, tragic romance. That is about as stale as it gets.

I thought the trailer was fine.
PS- hi Scowling! It's been ages.

[Mando Knight]

I think maybe Luke's proposing the creation of a new order that combines the philosophies of Jedi and Sith.

Except that doesn't make sense because of the nature of the Sith. Argue about the values of a "balanced" view of the Force all you want, but Sith philosophy is a philosophy of manipulation and destruction for personal gain. Moderating Jedi philosophy with Sith teachings is like saying "our elitist club of self-ordained super-cops is maybe going down the wrong path. We should start trampling our foes underfoot and exterminate their children, just for balance's sake."

[Morty]

I don't see how Finn was sidelined at all. Until the very end, he was pretty firmly in the position of Rey's co-protagonist. She's simply the one who got to kick Darth Edgelord's ass in the end. We'll see how it goes for him in the sequel. But I doubt he'll spend much of it in a coma. It's pretty heavily implied he's Force-sensitive as well, although I'm not sure. I guess it depends on whether a Muggle can fight with a lightsaber. They never do, but... is there anything about a lightsaber that requires Force sensitivity to use?

[The Glyphstone]

I don't see how Finn was sidelined at all. Until the very end, he was pretty firmly in the position of Rey's co-protagonist. She's simply the one who got to kick Darth Edgelord's ass in the end. We'll see how it goes for him in the sequel. But I doubt he'll spend much of it in a coma. It's pretty heavily implied he's Force-sensitive as well, although I'm not sure. I guess it depends on whether a Muggle can fight with a lightsaber. They never do, but... is there anything about a lightsaber that requires Force sensitivity to use?

Not to pick up, but it's generally implied or outright explicit that you need the low-level precognition and reflexes of a Jedi to avoid mutilating yourself with a weightless plasma blade in a fight. Han could use Luke's saber to cut open the Tauntaun for warmth, but probably not to fight with.

[happyturtle]

The thing about having female leads in big budget movies is NOT that we (as women) need them to be perfect. But we do need them to be there. We need women who aren't about getting pregnant and dying in childbirth (because they lost the will to live no less!) We need women who aren't there to be a reward for the men. We need women who aren't there to be raped or murdered or fridged as character development for some man. We need women who aren't there to get their clothes off for the fans. We simply need women who are there doing all the things men have been doing in movies since movies have been a thing.

Leia was exactly what we want. And yet she still had to kiss her brother, date a scruffy-looking nerf-herder, and wear a gold bikini, just to be fourth billing after Luke, Han, and Vader. Hermione Granger is what we want. And yet she was always overshadowed by the stupid boys. Ripley is what we want, if we ignore Resurrection and everything after that.

And yes, for me, Rey is what we want. Lonely, PTSD, hyper-competent, Force-user Rey.

Hollywood may be getting it wrong. (Hollywood is always getting it wrong - no surprise there!) They tend to lean more towards bad writing than not. And character development is always thin when you only have 90 or so minutes. But I'm glad to have an actual female lead.

[hamishspence]

Not to pick up, but it's generally implied or outright explicit that you need the low-level precognition and reflexes of a Jedi to avoid mutilating yourself with a weightless plasma blade in a fight.

In very early Legends (West End Games material) yes. However, that's generally been ignored by later material. And by the newcanon too. Han ends up wielding a lightsaber alongside Luke & Leia in the Marvel SW comics. And Kanan teaches Sabine to wield the black-bladed "Darksaber" in Rebels. Luke fights a lightsaber-wielding stormtrooper.

Some of the first Star Wars concept art by Ralph McQuarrie included lightsaber-wielding stormtroopers, for that matter.

[Scowling Dragon]

The thing about having female leads in big budget movies is NOT that we (as women) need them to be perfect.

Wow, I didn't know women had hiveminds. Awesome. How does the representation of hive minds speak to you? I think the way that Hive minds are always portrayed as a negative is grossly offencive.

[Kitten Champion]

It's pretty heavily implied he's Force-sensitive as well, although I'm not sure. I guess it depends on whether a Muggle can fight with a lightsaber. They never do, but... is there anything about a lightsaber that requires Force sensitivity to use?

I hope not. One of the things I liked about both The Force Awakens and Rogue One was its restraint in that. I don't reasonably expect any Star Wars movie or television series to exclude Force use/users in some respect - much less ones subtitled The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi - but there's a saturation point where it begins to eat into the appeal the rest of the universe could potentially have.

Having Rey fulfill that expectation is enough, Finn's situated pretty well as an audience surrogate.

[hamishspence]

Some of it is how Luke obviously just gave up after screwing up an apprentice. For all the faults of EU, when one of his apprentices fell, he took it on the chin and tried to make things better.

Generally, when Luke's apprentices fell in the EU, they didn't kill off all his other apprentices.

Probably the most damage done by one apprentice, to the Academy, was by Brakiss in Young Jedi Knights (by which time Luke had already trained a large number of Knights) - Brakiss destroyed Luke's Academy on Yavin IV, leaving it in ruins.

But Luke himself, and most of his Knights, Masters, and current class of trainees survived - and they rebuilt the wrecked Academy.

[Morty]

Not to pick up, but it's generally implied or outright explicit that you need the low-level precognition and reflexes of a Jedi to avoid mutilating yourself with a weightless plasma blade in a fight. Han could use Luke's saber to cut open the Tauntaun for warmth, but probably not to fight with.

Sounds about right.

I hope not. One of the things I liked about both The Force Awakens and Rogue One was its restraint in that. I don't reasonably expect any Star Wars movie or television series to exclude Force use/users in some respect - much less ones subtitled The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi - but there's a saturation point where it begins to eat into the appeal the rest of the universe could potentially have.

Having Rey fulfill that expectation is enough, Finn's situated pretty well as an audience surrogate.

Can't say I disagree, or that I wouldn't like Finn as a normal guy, but fighting Kylo Ren with a lightsaber for a good while does point towards him being Force-sensitive.

[warty goblin]

I like Rey as a character, and thought Daisy Ridley did a hell of a good job. If anything, I'd have rather the movie had spent more time letting the audience get to know her, but that would have conflicted with the overall reliance of the movie on Abrams' stupid 'mystery box' writing gimmick, and the metric ton of tedious witty dialog. I am getting very weary of endless witty dialog.


Also The Force Awakens had a total dearth of cool planets. Desert planet, my backyard, and my backyard in winter. Yawn. Revenge of the Sith put more imagination into the backgrounds for a freaking montage sequence.