Doctor Who - Series 10

[random11]

Now... what do we think of Missy? Elaborate mind games, or genuine character development?

Both options are bad.
If it's a mind game, it isn't exactly a complex one, just show some tears and talk about regret. Not exactly something that cancels previous character.
If it's the second option, it's not a character development as much as a re-write of it.

I would much prefer that instead of contacting her when it's not really required (both times she "helped" were situations the Doctor should have been able to solve by himself), create an actual big threat, one that forces the Doctor to work with Missy, and one that also forces Missy to help for survival.
THEN, either make some character development while they work together, or make her trick the Doctor to escape and/or pose a threat to the world.

[dps]

Now... what do we think of Missy? Elaborate mind games, or genuine character development?

With Moffat in charge, it doesn't matter.

If it's mind games, it'll be all build up with no worthwhile payoff. If it's genuine character development, Moffat will just hit the rewind button and have her go back to being evil anyway.

[Jeivar]

Say, I have a little lore question: The Doctor's people are always referred to as Time Lords, but Ashildr/Me also referred to him as a high-born Gallifreyan. Is there a difference between Time Lord and Gallifreyan? Like, the Time Lords are the upper class who learn all the timey wimey stuff, and plain Gallifreyans are the peasant-looking folks who shielded the Doctor during his return?

[factotum]

OK, I've just seen the episode. Pretty fun, overall. The attitude of the captain was typical of some British soldiers at the time, IMHO--they'd spent so much time shooting largely inferior native forces that they had a highly over-developed sense of their own superiority.

One thing that I did notice that nobody has brought up yet, though:

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Why did the TARDIS go home on its own? That was never explained in the episode, and while it's obvious it had to happen like that for Missy to get a go at the controls, I don't like major plot points that are not given an in-universe explanation.

[random11]

OK, I've just seen the episode. Pretty fun, overall. The attitude of the captain was typical of some British soldiers at the time, IMHO--they'd spent so much time shooting largely inferior native forces that they had a highly over-developed sense of their own superiority.

One thing that I did notice that nobody has brought up yet, though:

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Why did the TARDIS go home on its own? That was never explained in the episode, and while it's obvious it had to happen like that for Missy to get a go at the controls, I don't like major plot points that are not given an in-universe explanation.

It will either be ignored completely, or addressed in the next episode as a plot point.

The only thing I can think of is that the TARDIS itself wanted to release Missy.

[Friv]

Say, I have a little lore question: The Doctor's people are always referred to as Time Lords, but Ashildr/Me also referred to him as a high-born Gallifreyan. Is there a difference between Time Lord and Gallifreyan? Like, the Time Lords are the upper class who learn all the timey wimey stuff, and plain Gallifreyans are the peasant-looking folks who shielded the Doctor during his return?

This has been a little unclear over the years.

There is definitely a distinction between high-born Time Lords and low-born peasants; this has been true as far back as the Fourth Doctor. At the time, it was unclear whether the difference was entirely societal, or also included something genetic. I don't think they've ever said, for example, whether non-Time Lord Gallifreyans can regenerate in the TV show.

NuWho seems to have suggested that a lot of the regeneration and time sense comes from staring into the Time Vortex as a child; River develops minor Time Lord-like powers from extended exposure to the Vortex in the womb. It's still unclear whether peasant-class Gallifreyans would become Time Lords if they were exposed, but it's likely (and in fact, the anniversary special sort of suggests that the Doctor was born to poorer members of Gallifrey and was inducted into the upper classes, rather than having been born there to begin with).

[Eldan]

Say, I have a little lore question: The Doctor's people are always referred to as Time Lords, but Ashildr/Me also referred to him as a high-born Gallifreyan. Is there a difference between Time Lord and Gallifreyan? Like, the Time Lords are the upper class who learn all the timey wimey stuff, and plain Gallifreyans are the peasant-looking folks who shielded the Doctor during his return?

This is diving a bit into secondary canon (the audio stuff in my case), but back at the beginning of Time Lord society, Rassilon lead one political block on Gallifrey that would later become the Time Lords. THere were other political institutions. So it seems not all Gallifreyans are Time Lords.

Personally, I choose to believe that TIme Lords are those who have completed the academy.

[Quiver]

Last I knew, the closest-thing-to-canon was that all Time Lords are Gallifreyan, but not all Gallifreyan's are Time Lords.

Though that distinction is rathermuddled by the fact that the Doctor and others use 'Time Lord' as a species name, with the recurring joke of how it sounds like a job title.

Who!Canon is a great big wibbly wobbly ball of stuff, and it's best to just kinda roll with it.

[Spacewolf]

Not sure if I'm just in a bad mood or something but that was literally one of the worst things I have ever seen, every line of dialog mad me cringe, the characters were boring and the episodes plot was just stupid. The Doctor and Nardol continue to be well above the rest but have such rubbish to work with that it obvious it's the actors and not the script.

[dps]

Didn't think it was that bad; it was just a totally "meh" story.

[BWR]

It was between 'meh' and 'bad'. Not terrible, not by far the worst thing that has been inflicted upon DW, but below average.

Next episode Mondasian Cybermen! None of this Cybus nonsense.
Let's hope it's as good as the Ice Warrior episode.

[Jeivar]

Does anyone else think it's weird for Bill to just blithely stroll of by herself, in a time and place not exactly known for being safe?

On an unrelated note, does anyone else miss her afro?

[random11]

Yeah, it was mostly boring.

Also, I have a feeling this episode was written without any connection and then edited to write Missy in there.
How could no one know she was in there? Last episode ended with everyone knowing she was outside the vault, and now everybody behaves like it's supposed to be a surprise.

Also, the doctor is not 100% sure about Missy, but he trusts her with fixing the TARDIS without supervision?!

On an unrelated note, does anyone else miss her afro?

I'm a typical male specimen, I do not recognize changes in women hairstyles at all.

[dehro]

Derp... despite having 3 sisters and a girlfriend, I had to read it here to notice that the hairdo wasn't there....and it's even more weird because I myself am having a phase where I'm all involved in growing and grooming both beard and hair, so I tend to notice it more.
anyhoo, the episode.

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I don't understand Bill ... a couple of episodes ago she was willing to throw humanity under the bus to save the Doctor's eyesight trusting that he'd have a plan to sort things out, and now she stops him from doing things and saving the day by throwing the keeper of the gate and the ninth legion at the enemy.
Should humanity ever again be in a serious danger, could we please not have Bill on our side, thankyouverymuch?
Also, why is the Doctor not super mad at Nardole and Bill when they stop him on account of having to guard the vault, given where Missy is? how did he not turn around to them to tell them "see now why that was never the point?"

all considered, "meh" is probably the best comment on this episode.

[ThatNickGuy]

I'm calling it now before the latest episode drops: John Simm's Master isn't returning. Technically. He's a product of Missy's imagination in her ongoing struggle to be "good." And that former part of herself taunts and nags her to return to what The Master truly was: insanely evil.

[Bohandas]

Wait...Isn't this like season 30 or 40?

[comicshorse]

26 Season of Old Who and 10 of the re-boot.

There was something very strange about the latest episode. I really liked it

[Spacewolf]

It was alright yea would have been nice if they'd spent less than 2/3rds or the episode explaining the obvious and most of it hadn't been spoiled before hand.

The call backs to old who are starting to get obnoxious as well.

[Jeivar]

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Well... that happened.

Can I just start by saying that the original Cybermen are creepy as hell?

Anyway. At about the halfway mark I was going to comment on how disturbing it was for Bill to lose out on years of her life just waiting in that horrible hospital. Of course, things got a whole different level of disturbing by the end.

The big question is: Is this the end for Bill? My (admittedly limited) knowledge of DW states that Cybermen are GONE, but I thought for sure that her departure from the series would involve the Pilot creature.

And Missy? My theory was that she WOULD show signs of actually reforming... and then be forced to regenerate, into another homicidal maniac. Now? I guess she could be playing her previous self, but that's at best a 50% chance.

[Leecros]

It was alright yea would have been nice if they'd spent less than 2/3rds or the episode explaining the obvious and most of it hadn't been spoiled before hand.

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I would have enjoyed the episode so much more if the important parts of the episode weren't spoiled in the preview at the end of the previous episode.This is probably something that annoyed me a lot.

I don't even know how much of this I should spoiler considering that The preview was essentially enough to figure out most of the plot very quickly. The Mondasian Cybermen were obvious. Even if they didn't look like their signature selfs. All the talk of "upgrading" made it pretty obvious. They really need to work on their subtlety for dramatic surprises.

Then, John Simm's Master....Well, it took me until about half-way through the episode to figure out how he played in.

I did enjoy his acting though(as usual)

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Can I just start by saying that the original Cybermen are creepy as hell?

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A lot of the old school film and TV props and suits are creepy as hell. Interestingly enough, seeing it in a modern show is actually pretty novel. I like it.

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Anyway. At about the halfway mark I was going to comment on how disturbing it was for Bill to lose out on years of her life just waiting in that horrible hospital. Of course, things got a whole different level of disturbing by the end.

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Modern Doctor Who really likes the whole "I've waited a long time for The Doctor or...something else, but usually The Doctor specifically." Especially under Moffat. Amy did it multiple times, Rory did it, River did it, Clara definitely did it, and now Bill.

[SPOILER=World Enough and Time Enough]The big question is: Is this the end for Bill? My (admittedly limited) knowledge of DW states that Cybermen are GONE, but I thought for sure that her departure from the series would involve the Pilot creature.

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My guess...considering it's an early Cyberman and we see her face through the eye-socket right at the end(Kind of) and the fact that nothing has been said about Pearl Mackie leaving...I'm going to guess that she'll probably be saved and left with effectively the mechanical heart. Probably with some sort of technobabble long-term power source provided by The Doctor.

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Now? I guess she could be playing her previous self, but that's at best a 50% chance.

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The interesting thing is that Simms Master would rather die than spend the rest of his life with The Doctor. The fact that the current incarnation of The Master is doing just that...Well, I don't see him taking it well.

Edit:

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I made the statement earlier that there was no news that Pearl Mackie was leaving. Upon further googling that still is probably the case, but it seems like lots of people are being super wishy washy about it and for once not giving away spoilers like we get every time we get a new Doctor.

[Bohandas]

Regardig the Time Lord vs. Galifreyan and how the time vortex relates to powers thing didn't the Doctor's daughter from that one episode have (very limited) regeneration abilities despite not having been exposed to the time vortex?

[random11]

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I'll start with the bad:

- Previously mentioned here, and I agree that the previews killed at least two points that could have been good in this episode.

- Will you please stop teasing us with the regeneration thing?!
They do it as if we all hate the actor and get hope every hint that he is about to be replaced.

- What was the point of the Master's disguise? Other than the audience, who was supposed to recognize him? He didn't even know The Doctor will arrive when he had it on.


As for the rest, it's a pretty good episode, but since it's a double episode I don't want to give praise for something that might be ignored or replaced later for fear of jinxing it.

[SuperPanda]

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I'll start with the bad:

- Previously mentioned here, and I agree that the previews killed at least two points that could have been good in this episode.

- Will you please stop teasing us with the regeneration thing?!
They do it as if we all hate the actor and get hope every hint that he is about to be replaced.

- What was the point of the Master's disguise? Other than the audience, who was supposed to recognize him? He didn't even know The Doctor will arrive when he had it on.


As for the rest, it's a pretty good episode, but since it's a double episode I don't want to give praise for something that might be ignored or replaced later for fear of jinxing it.

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While I agree the previews spoiled alot in this episode I still enjoyed it quite a bit. Its not as bad as some of the Davies run episode titles spoiling the surprises there.

On teasing regeneration - I completely agree. That seems to be a particular favorite of Moffat as I remember quite a few teases in Smith's run as the Doctor too. It feels like a cheap way to try to drum up tension for the audience and it felt particularly cheap in this episode since the Drama of what was happening to Bill was so much more interesting. You could completely cut that scene and the episode would not only not loose anything - it would actually be stronger because of it.

To be fair - I don't know where else they could have drawn Sims's Master from. Between his regeneration in Utopia and his stint as Prime Minister he can't go anywhere but the end of time and then-current Earth. So there is no real window for him to be here. Still one of my favorite little pieces of Sim's Master was the tapping he did because of the drums - it might have given away his disguise if he'd been fidgeting with things but it also would have been a nice piece of tension to do that if they'd left Sims completely out of their previews.

The Master's Disguise: They actually explained that one in the episode. The Master said he needed a disguise because he was "someone's former prime minister" - which means that this took place after "Last of the Time Lords" in which he died which means it also took place after being sent back into the Time War when he briefly turned hero at the end of Tennant's run. This allows them to remove the drum beat plot line which is a shame because it would have been amazing to have as a running thing within his disguise, and it also over-writes Sim's Master's characterization in the christmas special (which to be fair wasn't all that strong).

The Master implied that he put on his disguise in order to get close to Bill to find out more about what was happening with Missy and then to betray Bill so that the Doctor could never forgive him/missy.

I really liked it. I hated that they got the science part backwards as it really would have been pretty easy to flip the ship around with the engines burning towards the black hole (thus thrusting away from it) and find a different visual tell for the crew on the bridge to see - Thus allowing the science part to be the right-way round. Still its impressive for NuWho that they got as close as they did to actual time-dilation science. Its miles closer to actual science than "Kill the Moon"

[Jeivar]

Can anyone else think of a reason why Simm's Master hates the Doctor with such a passion, but Missy wants to be friends again?

Also:

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According to lore, shouldn't Missy definitely remember this whole thing?

[Eldan]

Regardig the Time Lord vs. Galifreyan and how the time vortex relates to powers thing didn't the Doctor's daughter from that one episode have (very limited) regeneration abilities despite not having been exposed to the time vortex?

I think she did. But then, the episode contradicts itself all the time. It's also been mentioned before that regeneration is a technology, not a natural part of Gallifreyans.

[Hopeless]

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While I agree the previews spoiled alot in this episode I still enjoyed it quite a bit. Its not as bad as some of the Davies run episode titles spoiling the surprises there.

On teasing regeneration - I completely agree. That seems to be a particular favorite of Moffat as I remember quite a few teases in Smith's run as the Doctor too. It feels like a cheap way to try to drum up tension for the audience and it felt particularly cheap in this episode since the Drama of what was happening to Bill was so much more interesting. You could completely cut that scene and the episode would not only not loose anything - it would actually be stronger because of it.

To be fair - I don't know where else they could have drawn Sims's Master from. Between his regeneration in Utopia and his stint as Prime Minister he can't go anywhere but the end of time and then-current Earth. So there is no real window for him to be here. Still one of my favorite little pieces of Sim's Master was the tapping he did because of the drums - it might have given away his disguise if he'd been fidgeting with things but it also would have been a nice piece of tension to do that if they'd left Sims completely out of their previews.

The Master's Disguise: They actually explained that one in the episode. The Master said he needed a disguise because he was "someone's former prime minister" - which means that this took place after "Last of the Time Lords" in which he died which means it also took place after being sent back into the Time War when he briefly turned hero at the end of Tennant's run. This allows them to remove the drum beat plot line which is a shame because it would have been amazing to have as a running thing within his disguise, and it also over-writes Sim's Master's characterization in the christmas special (which to be fair wasn't all that strong).

The Master implied that he put on his disguise in order to get close to Bill to find out more about what was happening with Missy and then to betray Bill so that the Doctor could never forgive him/missy.

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I assumed it was because he wasn't aging and given the society he was living amoung that might raise the kind of suspicions he would have trouble avoiding...

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Remember Day of the Doctor when 3 doctors teamed up to save Gallifrey?
Probably the same reason only Eleven would remember afterwards.
Whatever happened to cause the Master to become Missy might also play a part in why she forgot so timeywhimey stuff!😉

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Also I think the Master wants the Doctor's help to get him off that ship so I expect Bill hasn't been upgraded merely superficially looks like one to amuse the Master

[Friv]

Can anyone else think of a reason why Simm's Master hates the Doctor with such a passion, but Missy wants to be friends again?

If I had to guess, it's a combination of two things.

1) Russell T. Davies established that Simms!Master was partially driven by the Sound of Drums in his head - the beacon from Gallifrey trying to use him as a way back into the universe. That sound went away when they returned, so Missy might be a bit more clear-headed.

2) The Doctor and the Master had a bit of a rapprochment at the end of Simms' life, which he hasn't experienced yet. Major life events can really change a person, even without accounting for regeneration.

[Jeivar]

2) The Doctor and the Master had a bit of a rapprochment at the end of Simms' life, which he hasn't experienced yet. Major life events can really change a person, even without accounting for regeneration.

I thought the implication was this is the Master after all of that; that he escaped Gallifrey without having to regenerate, and got involved in that whole Cybermen business.

[SuperPanda]

This has to be Sims Master after the escape form Galifrey after the drums are removed.

For one he isn't ever seen tapping out his four best rhythm.
This doesn't explain how he stabilized the faulty resurrection he used to take on Timothy Dalton though.


This creates a different problem which could have a clever explaination though - Sims should have been trapped with Galirfrey when the doctors did what they did on the fiftieth anniversary. There shouldn't have been any way for Sims to get off Gallifrey before that happened but the weak explaination could be that he was zapped here and didn't know the real story (while Missy does).

The far more interesting option is that he escaped after the Doctor's trick but not without cost.

[Leecros]

Can anyone else think of a reason why Simm's Master hates the Doctor with such a passion, but Missy wants to be friends again?

Perhaps events in the next episode will have an influence on his outlook on The Doctor.

This creates a different problem which could have a clever explaination though - Sims should have been trapped with Galirfrey when the doctors did what they did on the fiftieth anniversary. There shouldn't have been any way for Sims to get off Gallifrey before that happened but the weak explaination could be that he was zapped here and didn't know the real story (while Missy does).

Wasn't that whole thing sort-of resolved at the end of the previous season?

The Time Lords found a way out or were left out at some point and hid themselves and Gallifrey at the end of the universe. From there...well, they have time travel. Being at the end of the universe wouldn't really be a hindrance to them and obviously Rassilon survived(and will probably come back as a villain someday). So The Master surviving and escaping via Time Travel wouldn't be too much of a stretch .

(i say "sort of" because i wouldn't be surprised if there was an episode surrounding it sometime in the future. But...you know...Wibbly wobbly timey wimey)

How he survived his "condition"? Well, perhaps that will be answered, but i doubt it.If it is, I suspect that he healed through the power of plot or technobabble or both.