My thoughts on Skyrim's factions

[veti]

There is however some weirdness with people acting like the civil war has been going on for ages and eons.

Indeed. For instance, Vignar Gray-Mane says "We Gray-Manes have been feuding with the Battle-Borns for years", but Olfrid Battle-Born says "Our friendship ended when he turned his back on the Emperor". Which, taken together, implies that the Gray-Manes must have turned against the Empire - at least - several years ago.

There is, just about, enough... looseness in the information to square this circle. Vignar dates the feud to "When the troubles began". But "troubles" is not synonymous with "war", so if we assume that the discontent in Skyrim has actually been simmering and escalating ever since the Markarth Incident - the whole thing could make sense.

The Stormcloaks have existed for at least 25 years - they were the "independent militia" with which Ulfric retook the Reach from the Forsworn - but their ongoing grievance with the Empire has taken this long to escalate to open war.

[Yuki Akuma]

I don't remember ever learning when the Stormcloaks were formed, so it's hard to pin everything down. Were they around when Ulfric was just a normal Jarl? That would be kinda weird, and probably a bit of a red flag for the other Jarls, since none of the rest of them have their own personal armies.

Yeah they do. What do you think the hold guards are?

[Delicious Taffy]

Yeah they do. What do you think the hold guards are?

Completely incompetent. Anyway, more importantly, I do seem to have confused the Markarth Incident with the Torygg thing. Either way, it's a murky-ass timeline if you've not invested a decent chunk of the day into sorting it all out. I still find it odd that Ulfric's apparently got a proper army with names and everything, while the closest any other hold gets is a couple dozen moderately-trained guards. Maybe the Stormcloak numbers are meant to represent the true scope of each hold's defenses, and the rest only let you see a few at a time because conservation of detail? I'd imagine each "City" would be a little more populated than what's shown, even puny little Winterhold.

[Keltest]

Completely incompetent. Anyway, more importantly, I do seem to have confused the Markarth Incident with the Torygg thing. Either way, it's a murky-ass timeline if you've not invested a decent chunk of the day into sorting it all out. I still find it odd that Ulfric's apparently got a proper army with names and everything, while the closest any other hold gets is a couple dozen moderately-trained guards. Maybe the Stormcloak numbers are meant to represent the true scope of each hold's defenses, and the rest only let you see a few at a time because conservation of detail? I'd imagine each "City" would be a little more populated than what's shown, even puny little Winterhold.

Keep in mind that the stormcloaks have volunteers from all of Skyrim now, so theyre probably a good bit bigger than the hold guards. Whereas volunteers for the Imperials join the Legion rather than their hold's guard.

[Asmotherion]

Do you have proofs of these evil acts of the Stormcloaks ? (not Stormcloks. These are clocks https://www.google.com/search?q=cloc...w=1366&bih=638 )
No, you don't have. This story is just a proof of how lies and disinformation can spread trough the Internet. Someone says that the Stormcloaks are nazi, so everyone repeat it without fact checking.
But the truth is that in "nazi" capital Windhelm there are Altmer that owns shops without SA squads breaking everything every week.
Dunmer live in the poor district because they are refugees (yeah, apparently "nazi" Skyrim allows foreign refugees to live in their capital) not because there are ghettos.

Ulfric can be a bad person, but the Empire is the one that allows the Thalmor to act like the Gestapo. But yeah, the Stormcloaks are the bad guys because someone doesn't like their motto and can't distinguish between patriotism and racism.

Nope, patriotism is a good thing. But isn't Skyrim part of the empire? So, real patriots are Imerials. Imperials don't discriminate between Nords, orther humans, Elves, Khajit or Argonians (Orcs are considered an elf race in Elder Scrolls I think).

Also, the Dunmer who has a shop in the capital is treated as a criminal and fence, just because of the colour of his skin. How is that not racist? The drunk guy in front of the inn is bullying any dunmer or non-Nord he sees. The very general of Ulfrick provocks you if you are non-nord, and Ulfrick himself seems to tolerate you just because you are the Dragonborn, and he knows better than offend you.

Ulfrick went and challenged the High King in combat, wile he knew he was not much of a fighter. Then, instead of defeating him fare and square, he used shouts in his already unfairly advantageous possition in combat, to kill the King. If that's not just plain murder, what is? Finally, the Empire could not risk an other War with the Thalmor, as it was still recovering from it's last war, and leaving Ulfrick as the High King of Skyrim would give the Thalmor the excuse it needed to attack, probably leaving no survivors in Skyrim, or enslaving everyone.

So, the only option was a civil war to diminish the casualties, and prevent the Thalmor from attacking.

What you need to remember is that Skyrim is already part of the empire when the events happen. It's not an independent country, rather than a State, with it's own laws, but part of a bigger empire.

[BlacKnight]

Initially, the Empire Controlled the Territories of Hammerfell, Cyrodiil, Skyrim, and High Rock. Much of the Fighting took place in Cyrodiil itself. The Seat of the Empire. Clearly a war in the capital province is going to be highly unpopular, but the other Imperial Provinces are difficult to get to, Hammerfell aside for the Dominion. So first, The Dominion took strong offensive leads in the Province of Cyrodiil, then while the ruling Cyrodiilic elite is still panicking and prior to the mustering of armies from the other provinces proper, offer the white gold Concordat. Ceding control of hammerfell to the Dominion. Which, had things gone according to plan, would have given the Dominion a close border with ALL THREE remaining imperial provinces.

First they demanded that the Empire cede control of Hammerfell. And now they push unrest in Skyrim. What does this do to the Empires territories?

Excellent post. Let me expand on this.
A lot of people seems to treat warfare like Dragonball logic. The Dominion > the Empire, the Empire > Skyrim, thus the Dominion > Skyrim.
But real war is a lot more complex. Geography and logistics are fundamental. The fact that the Dominion could invade Cyrodiil and Hammerfeel doesn't mean that they can do the same to Skyrim.
Especially considering that both invasions in the end failed to take and hold any territory. Yeah, they devastated the southern part of those countries, but they didn't conquer anything. This implies that the Dominion lacks the logistical capacity to project significant power from its territories. They could never hope to defeat the Empire by military power alone.
But they are smart. They can raze the Imperial Capital, so the weak imperial court bows to them. So they use the pressure they can exert on the imperial government to indirectly attack the other imperial provinces. The pressure exerted by the Empire on Skyrim is a mix of soft and hard power that the Thalmor could never have achieved by themselves.

If the Empire was to be dissolved the Imperial Capital would actually lose value to the eyes of the Thalmor, making the cost/benefit calculation for a new war even less advantageous.

Nope, patriotism is a good thing. But isn't Skyrim part of the empire? So, real patriots are Imerials. Imperials don't discriminate between Nords, orther humans, Elves, Khajit or Argonians (Orcs are considered an elf race in Elder Scrolls I think).

I have already answered to this in my previous posts. See them for furhter details.
Druid91 made an excellent post that explain how racism is common to all Tamriel cultures and it's not a Stormcloaks peculiar trait.
For the last time:
-Khajit are banned from all cities, included the imperial controlled ones.
-there are Dunmer in Windhelm who are treated fairly. One of them is even a landowner.
-there are Argonians who are treated fairly in other Stomcloaks controlled cities. One of them even become an housecarl.
-there are clues that Argonians weren't allowed in Solitude prior of Torygg death.

There are racist on all sides. The cause of this is due to cultural background. The Stormcloaks agenda isn't racist and the imperial agenda isn't tollerant. Racism isn't the split between them.

Ulfrick went and challenged the High King in combat, wile he knew he was not much of a fighter. Then, instead of defeating him fare and square, he used shouts in his already unfairly advantageous possition in combat, to kill the King. If that's not just plain murder, what is?

Again, see other posts for details.
The duel in Nord tradition and law is meant to prove who is fitted to be king: the stronger warrior. There are no rules against the use of the Thu'um.

Finally, the Empire could not risk an other War with the Thalmor, as it was still recovering from it's last war, and leaving Ulfrick as the High King of Skyrim would give the Thalmor the excuse it needed to attack, probably leaving no survivors in Skyrim, or enslaving everyone.

See druid91 post and my answer in the top of this message.
Just think about this: Germany invaded the USSR in WW2. The USA was a most powerful nation than Germany. So the US could have invaded the USSR like Germany did ? Obviously not. Geography and logistics are more important than sheer military power.

What you need to remember is that Skyrim is already part of the empire when the events happen. It's not an independent country, rather than a State, with it's own laws, but part of a bigger empire.

Except that Skyrim has its own laws. You have to consider that Empires are often a collection of different nations, each one with its different tradition, culture and laws. Think about the British Empire. It left wide autonomy to the colonies. In some cases.

[Delicious Taffy]

Let's review the facts, here:

• Ulfric Stormcloak is a scumbag.
• The Thalmor are scumbags.
• General Tullius is a scumbag.
• The Dark Brotherhood are scumbags.
• The Thieves Guild are scumbags.
• The Blades are scumbags.
• The Companions exist and are generally benign.
• The Mages' College also exist and are also generally benign.

From this, we can gather that only two of the major factions the Dovahkiin can join aren't full of, or run by, scumbags. Therefore, the only possible way to not join a scummy faction, other than not joining anyone at all, is to be a Companion and/or go to school. An additional fact, just added for kicks: Windhelm is a cramped, dumpy little town, tucked away into a quiet little corner of its own, with very little in the way of scenery. If I didn't know the Grey Quarter was specifically called that because of the Dunmer, I'd think it was a nickname for Windhelm in general, because the place is devoid of all life.

[Shoreward]

If I didn't know the Grey Quarter was specifically called that because of the Dunmer, I'd think it was a nickname for Windhelm in general, because the place is devoid of all life.

Damn, I must have forgotten to reload my save.

As an aside, these conversations are always interesting to read. Five years later and we're still arguing over who was 'right'. Of course, assuming they don't explain this game's multiple possible Civil War endings with another Dragonbreak or one of the endings isn't canonised, I think we can safely decide that the exact outcome is not relevant to the future of Tamriel. No matter what we chose, the same things are going to occur going forward. That either means it doesn't matter, or it means the presence of the dragonborn is the more important factor than any one faction.

I can't wait for the next game to claim something silly about us, like how we somehow became the high king of Skyrim or got lost on our way to Belethor, at the General Goods Store.

[Androgeus]

Let's review the facts, here:

• .
• The Companions exist and are generally benign.

Nah, they pretend to be the Fighter's guild analogue and then take a stupid turn in to werewolfdom

[Eldan]

Damn, I must have forgotten to reload my save.

As an aside, these conversations are always interesting to read. Five years later and we're still arguing over who was 'right'. Of course, assuming they don't explain this game's multiple possible Civil War endings with another Dragonbreak or one of the endings isn't canonised, I think we can safely decide that the exact outcome is not relevant to the future of Tamriel. No matter what we chose, the same things are going to occur going forward. That either means it doesn't matter, or it means the presence of the dragonborn is the more important factor than any one faction.

I can't wait for the next game to claim something silly about us, like how we somehow became the high king of Skyrim or got lost on our way to Belethor, at the General Goods Store.

Of course there will be a dragon break. We quite literally broke a dragon at the ending of the main quest.

[Shoreward]

Of course there will be a dragon break. We quite literally broke a dragon at the ending of the main quest.

And one who flew through time, too. Touché, my friend.

[Keltest]

Personally I think they'll go with the "it doesn't matter who you supported, because something else will happen to render it meaningless" route myself. The Dominion's eminent second invasion seems probable.

[Shoreward]

Personally I think they'll go with the "it doesn't matter who you supported, because something else will happen to render it meaningless" route myself. The Dominion's eminent second invasion seems probable.

Why bother with an invasion? I can just see it now...

Spoiler: Silly

Show

And then the Thalmor crept down the chimney while everyone else was in a fighting frenzy, plucked the last of the Towers into a potato sack, and stole away into the night.

"My," said one elf, giving her partners an astonished look, "If I'd known it would be this effective, it might have saved us quite the headache." She grinned. "Let that be a lesson, gentlemen. Never do with force what you can do with semantics and frustration."

Behind them, the shouting voices grew louder still...

[Shamash]

Am I the only one who thinks that "The College of Winterhold" was quite boring.

Both the place and the quests.

[Keltest]

Am I the only one who thinks that "The College of Winterhold" was quite boring.

Both the place and the quests.

none of the guilds particularly excited me. The Companions at least gave up any pretense that I would be acting as an uber-mercenary pretty early on, but the Dark Brotherhood questline was the only one that made me feel like I was actually a part of that guild and not just being sent on missions for them. the college in particular was bad about that because I never actually, you know, learned any magic.

[Shamash]

none of the guilds particularly excited me. The Companions at least gave up any pretense that I would be acting as an uber-mercenary pretty early on, but the Dark Brotherhood questline was the only one that made me feel like I was actually a part of that guild and not just being sent on missions for them. the college in particular was bad about that because I never actually, you know, learned any magic.

Yeah, there were no classes or labs, only bedrooms, what's up with that?

[Misery Esquire]

(Orcs are considered an elf race in Elder Scrolls I think).

The orcs are elves, the dwarves are elves, some of the humans are elves, the catpeople might've been elves, house cats might be catpeople, the elves are all demons, the gods are demons, some of the gods are the planet, the elves (dwarves) made metal out of gods (demons (elves)), and the demons might be other planets.

The Thalmor plan on destabilizing the planet so they (and the other elves) can go back to being demons. The Redguards sank their continent, Atmora is a popsicle, and the High Elves lost their continent through [REASON NOT FOUND]. So, the Seven Towers of Tamriel are probably the only thing in the way (if this works at all), unless there's something in Akavir.

[Eldan]

Given the hints that everything on Tamriel has a weird twisted copy in Akavir, they probably have towers, too?

That's a great idea. Send the Thalmor to invade Akavir.

[Rynjin]

I keep waiting for an Elder Scrolls game set in Akavir, or at least involving an Akaviri invasion. It sounds rad as hell.