Giarillas in the Mist

[Talic]

Grapple challenge for Monk, level 6 build, posted by Sir Giacomo.

Terms: flat open arena, stone, endless in all directions. Begin 30 feet away from first opponent. You have surprise round, and then initiative is rolled as normal.

1st opponent: A Cloaker. (CR 5)

[Sir Giacomo]

Wow, a surprise round vs a cloaker! Not a common occurance...
Apparently it is also reachable on the ground (and not yet flying, or flying within the monk's 20ft grapple reach - 10ft size, 10ft reach).

So, THE FOG in the surprise round does a partial charge to grapple (touch attack) vs the...thing. (as an aside, the monk could have done this partial grapple charge from double the distance away, or up to 60ft. Similarly, he might have grappled a flying foe within 30ft of the ground with a jump check).
Note that he can keep his spiked chain in his hands while grappling.
Then he does a grapple check, plus potential damage.
Either he now occupies the same square(s) as the cloaker, or he ends up in an adjacant square 5ft away. His AC then would be 12 (-2 from the partial charge).
After that, initiative is rolled.

[roll="Touch Attack partial charge +2"]1d20+12[/roll]

"Grapple Check" - (1d20+18)[25]

"Grapple Damage" - (3d6+6)[16]

"Initiative" - (1d20+1)[3]

---

* post roll count doesn't match database

[Sir Giacomo]

Arg, two things somehow got warped in the transmission.

The first is the attack roll, which I try again. The second - if that's still allowed to add - a tumble check to avoid any AoO while closing in with that strange creature. The high move of the monk allows him to cut the charge distance by one half for tumbling (the tumble check DC 15 is made automatically, so no roll here).
Note: likely the monk, from the completely alien movements of that thing does not even know who won initiative or who has the surprise round.

Second try for partial charge attack roll - (1d20+12)[30]

[Talic]

For future reference, explain roll errors rather than erasing them. Post counts not matching database information could raise perceptions of impropriety. Also, commentary is less needed than success.

Grapple check to avoid grapple: (1d20+14)[19]

Encounter Initiative: (1d20+7)[12]

Edit: Creature is grappled, sustains 16 damage. Remaining HP: 29

[Talic]

Cloaker wins initiative.

Round 1: Cloaker action.

Standard: Activate Extraordinary Ability: Moan. -Fear effect

Requires DC 15 Will save, or gain the Panicked status condition for 2 rounds.

EDIT: Grapple mod incorrect in above post, should only be +13. No impact in result, monk wins grapple either way.

[Talic]

In addition, no tumble check is required while closing. Your reach is equal to the creature's, as you are large.

In the event that you would, a simple rule shall be used. When you announce the action, you announce all facets of the action. If you fail to do so, any parts not announced were not performed. This includes tumble. I.E. If you don't say, at the time you announce your move, that you are tumbling, you are not.

[Sir Giacomo]

Hi,

two comments:
- yep, will try to keep everything that THE FOG does in one post. Yesterday I appear to have posted it just prior/during the time the server was down for 12 hours or more, so it may have been warped by that (I had to wait around 5 minutes for that last post). Once a roll is failed, I'll just re-roll it in another post, I guess (I think it's impossible for me to edit a roll once rolled).
- I also noticed that I forgot to deduct the -1 to the touch attack roll for being large; but in this case likewise it would not have mattered.

Now for the actions of THE FOG.
First, the saving throw vs fear (at +9).

In case he fails the saving throw, he'll drop his spiked chain and flee; tumbling at -2 (as per shaken) to avoid AoO in his first movement slot, then using the other 3 movement (of the movement x4) to get a total of 175ft away from the...thing.
Tumbling Check - (1d20+12)[27]

In case he makes the saving throw, he'll flurry his grapple vs the cloaker (note that he'll not try to pin, since that thing is too alien to assume it can speak and do something useful with that like spellcasting).

Grapple Check 1 - (1d20+17)[37]

Grapple Damage 1 - (3d6+6)[14]

Grapple Check 2 - (1d20+17)[31]

Grapple Damage 2 - (3d6+6)[18]

[Sir Giacomo]

And of course I forgot something important...the saving throw! ARg!

saving throw vs fear - (1d20+9)[19]

[Talic]

1st. If you failed your save, you would have been required to make a grapple check to escape, prior to tumbling, as you are currently grappled. That said:

Grapple checks:

Grapple check 1: Auto-fail

Grapple check 2: (1d20+13)[22]

[Talic]

Both checks Fail. creature takes 32 damage. Creature is downed.

Time taken: surprise round, round 1.

Relevant mitigating factors:
Player had a statistically higher than average grapple success rate

Relevant beneficial factors:
reach of player negated reach of creature
Higher grapple mod results in 66% success rate of grapple checks.
Damage potential capable of defeating creature in 3 hits, on average.

Misc Factors:
While success rate was high, the number of successful damaging strikes was exactly par.
Giacomo mistakenly rationalized that the creature would be unable to use its voice for anything, on the action after the creature did an attack that relied on its ability to speak (moan).

EDIT: Congratulations on the first victory.

Second Challenge appears immediately: A Troll. 30 feet away. As typical, player has surprise round, followed by initiative.

[Sir Giacomo]

Great!

(note: the joker monk with his grapple mod of +15 would also have stood a good chance, with even a better will save. Only the enlarge effect would have had only a 50% chance to get up; so likely a horn of fog is also a good idea for the joker monk - will likely update that soon)

Now for the troll...probably using same procedure...

Partial charge. In case the troll is armed with a reach weapon, tumbling to charge (auto-success).

Touch attack to grapple - (1d20+11)[12]

Grapple check - (1d20+18)[35]

Grapple damage - (3d6+6)[17]

Initiative - (1d20+1)[8]

[Sir Giacomo]

oops...fumble...good luck ends it seems...

[Talic]

Troll Initiative: (1d20+2)[13]

[Talic]

Incidentally, I will announce any weapons or other mitigating factors that are plainly visible, such as spears, and the like.

Troll Wins initiative.

Partial charge ended you at 10 feet distance. Current range between troll and you is 10 feet. Up side: ending while threatening creature mitigates enemy ability to engage other party members, in a real situation.

Troll Performs Full Attack.

Touch Attack to grapple (I am not required to, but First couple rounds are being treated as warmups for players... Don't want to end a challenge too early): (1d20+9)[15]

If hits, Grapple Check: (1d20+14)[27]

If Success, Damage: (1d4+6)[7]
Damage is for an unarmed strike, not a claw attack.

[Sir Giacomo]

Hmm- I think a monster's grappling damage is derived from its claw/arms appendices (i.e. its natural attack damage is used).

But anyhow,

Grapple check vs troll - (1d20+18)[24]

Then, on his turn, THE FOG attempts flurry full attack to grapple and pin.

Grapple touch attack 1 - (1d20+9)[17]
Grapple check 1 - (1d20+17)[21]
Grapple damage 1 - (3d6+6)[16]

Then, if first grapple was successful, use only the grapple check of this 2nd attempt for pinning (and not doing damage). Otherwise, try to establish hold and damage.
Grapple touch attack 2 - (1d20+9)[23]
Grapple check 2 for either damage or pin - (1d20+17)[32]
Grapple damage 2 - (3d6+6)[15]

[Talic]

Damage is listed as being equivalent to an unarmed strike, for entry in a grapple. It would use the attack in a grapple action to deal damage equal to natural attack.

That said, you failed grapple check versus troll, so you take the listed damage.

This obviates your need for a touch attack to initiate, removing the 1st action from your list. If acceptable, grapple action 1 will be used to deal damage, and moved to 2nd action. If 1st pin fails, grapple action 1 will be used as a 2nd pin attempt. Will spoiler opposed rolls below. If the above modification sounds good, look in spoiler. Otherwise, announce amended action, and spoilered rolls will apply to that.

You've taken 7 damage, and are reduced from 42 hp to 35 hp.

[Talic]

spoilered rolls:

Spoiler

Show

1st grapple check needed in the round: (1d20+14)[29]

2nd grapple check needed in the round: (1d20+14)[26]

Edit: If proposed action above is accepted, then troll will take 16 nonlethal damage, and be pinned. This will reduce troll from 63hp, no nonlethal damage, to 63 hp, with 16 nonlethal damage.

[Solo]

For future reference, explain roll errors rather than erasing them. Post counts not matching database information could raise perceptions of impropriety.

They do. They really, really do.

[Talic]

The above fight went more or less par for course. Mitigating factors are added in, at the end. I don't see any major issue with a creature that was just plain outclassed by any serious entry. That's why it was entry 1.

I'd ask him to put in a [roll0] in the thread to see what the original roll was (roll 0 is the missing roll), if it were a later match, but the overall impact of that roll is minimal. In later rounds, the point is established, and that is sufficient.

[Talic]

Please note: Information is needed from Giacomo to continue. I need either his acceptance of my proposed amendment to his action, or an amended action himself to account for the fact that his first listed action is not possible, considering he was currently in a grapple when he took it, and thus cannot initiate one.

[Sir Giacomo]

Hi,

sorry for the delay.

Accept the action interpretation above (forgot that I already was in a grapple). So troll is pinned after the end of the first round.

I'll already roll a grapple check vs the troll's likely attempt to escape from the pin in round 2:

opposing grapple vs troll pin escape attempt - (1d20+18)[25]

[Talic]

Troll readies an action.

Spoiler

Show

Attack when he's not pinned.

Your turn begins. Pin ends (lasts for 1 round, per grapple rules. This expires at the beginning of your action, like all effects with measured duration, and has been confirmed in the Simple RAW thread previously.)

This triggers the troll's readied action, to attack when not pinned.

(1d20+5)[15]
If Hit: (1d6+6)[11]
If threat: (1d20+5)[17]
If crit: (1d6+6)[12]

I hope this illustrates a fundamental flaw in the grapple system. Simply put, if a creature only gets 1 attack, it is impossible to prevent it from using that attack, via pinning. Similarly, it is impossible to prevent a mage from being able to cast in a grapple via pin, with the same readied action technique.

At best, pinning can reduce a multi-attacking creature (such as a fighter or monk) to one attack, or take away the highest 1 or 2 bab swings. It can prevent a caster from getting a spell component (require a full round action for that). But it cannot prevent any standard action, simply because the pinned character can simply ready an action for the moment your pin always slips each round, between the start of your action, and your first pin attempt.

[Sir Giacomo]

Sorry, Talic, but you seem to be misinterpreting something here.

The pin lasts for 1 round, true. So it lasts until it is the monk's next turn. Meanwhile, the troll on his turn has the option to escape the pin (with a grapple check), but otherwise it cannot do a thing. But it cannot ready an action to attack as long as it is still in a pin.

On the monk's turn, he must, of course, maintain the pin with an opposed grapple check.

- Giacomo

[Talic]

Incorrect. Pinning does not cover what actions you may not do, other than being held immobile. Thus, any action which requires movement is barred. Actions which do not require movement, including delaying and ready, are fine, assuming we are not following the absolute strictest interpretation of the grapple rules.

Under the strictest interpretation of what may be done in a grapple, you are correct. Under that interpretation, however, you cannot flurry in a grapple, nor may you two weapon fight, or gain additional attacks from haste weapons.

If all abilities not specifically allowed are barred, then every flurry you have done is illegal. If not, then actions which do not require movement are allowed in a pin.

From an RAI perspective, this works as well, as preparing to do something is not, in and of itself, doing anything.

So how about it? Rewind to your first action where you flurried, and disallow flurry? Or continue on, under the impression that actions which do not require movement are allowed to an immobile opponent? The two fall under the same level of strictness. How strict do you want to be, here?

[Sir Giacomo]

Hmmm...while your reference to movement confuses me even more, I'll try to explain what happens when you ready a standard action to escape a pin.

Basically, the monk on his turn pinned the troll for 1 round.

In no case the troll can simply ready an action to attack to the moment the pin ends, because at that point it's the monk's turn (remember that the pin lasts 1 round) and the monk gets his grapple flurry checks first. The troll basically has to decide when to ready his action to try to escape the pin - before or after the monk's action.

If the troll readies just before the monk tries to pin him again on the monk's turn.then the troll is still pinned! He still has to escape the pin first with a standard action to do anything. And the most you can do with the ready action thing is to ready a standard action. Nothing gained for the troll in this case.

In case the troll readies the action to after the monk's next turn, he likely is still pinned, since the monk can flurry again his pin attempts for another round, before the troll's readied action sets in (this way, btw, he loses one round of a chance to escape the pin).

This is actually (apart from neutering all spellcasting with components for 1 round) the great thing about pinning and having more grapple attempts or better grapple attempts: you force your opponent to always waste their best grapple attempt (if they even have more than one) to escape the pin, instead of getting a chance to deal damage.

This way, the monk has a great durability in grappling contests only.

So, the troll still has to do his escape grapple thing.

- Giacomo

[Talic]

Hmmm...while your reference to movement confuses me even more, I'll try to explain what happens when you ready a standard action to escape a pin.

Basically, the monk on his turn pinned the troll for 1 round.

In no case the troll can simply ready an action to attack to the moment the pin ends, because at that point it's the monk's turn (remember that the pin lasts 1 round) and the monk gets his grapple flurry checks first. The troll basically has to decide when to ready his action to try to escape the pin - before or after the monk's action.

If the troll readies just before the monk tries to pin him again on the monk's turn.then the troll is still pinned! He still has to escape the pin first with a standard action to do anything. And the most you can do with the ready action thing is to ready a standard action. Nothing gained for the troll in this case.

Wrong. Readied actions interrupt the normal flow of a turn. They are much like attacks of opportunity, in this regard. They occur immediately when the trigger occurs. For example, if a character readies an action to attack if they are attacked, and you attack them during your turn, the action resolves during your turn, before your attack.

If a character readies an action to attack if he is not pinned, and he becomes not pinned, for whatever reason, he interrupts the flow of the turn, and performs his action.

Thus, the troll gets an action after your turn begins, but before you can take your first action.

Other triggers that react in this way would include, "if you attempt to pin the troll", which would only take effect if you pinned, but would interrupt your action, "if you performed any of the actions listed in the grapple section of the SRD" which would affect more.

I think the misunderstanding comes from an misconception on the uses of readied actions, but believe me, they do occur DURING the turn of the triggering player. And your turn is the triggering one.

[Sir Giacomo]

Hmmm...I admit, it's not quite straightforward.

The relevent line of the ready action rules is probably this one (bold emphasis mine):

SRD: The action occurs just before the action that triggers it.

So, the troll readies the action to the situation when the monk is just about to renew the pin (with his first flurried grapple check). However, just BEFORE that, the pin of the previous round is still active. Therefore, the only thing the troll can do is try to escape the pin, nothing else.
It's basically as if you intend to interrupt a wizard casting a spell with an attack. If until said wizard tries to cast a spell you are under the effect of a hold person or bound in some other form (say, someone else pins you), you simply cannot do your action in the way you intend.

- Giacomo

[Talic]

You are under the impression that the time your turn starts and the time you perform your first attack are simultaneous.

However, they are not. First, beginning of turn effects occur, then you announce your action to attack, then you make your attack roll, incurring any normal penalties for doing so, or benefits. There are many things that can happen during your turn, before your first action.

Also, you ended your quote 1 or 2 lines early:

SRD: If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.

It happens before your action, not before your turn. That is because it interrupts your turn. After the attack occurs, you continue your actions.

But you are the impetus for the start of the attack, thus, it interrupts your turn. It does not, however, precede it. It does, however, precede the trigger. In this instance, while the trigger is on your turn, it does not start it. And, provided the attack is not before your turn, then the duration of the pin is over.

[Sir Giacomo]

Hmmm...

Where in the SRD or core rules does it say that there is some time between the start of your turn and your first attack? I can't think of any passage here. It may be like that in the magic card game, but not in DD 3.5.

Yes, a readied action interrupts what is going on BEFORE the other character takes his TURN (which in this case is started with a grapple check). However, at that point, the troll is still pinned, so he gains nothing.

- Giacomo

[Talic]

Simple.

If the readied action is in response to another player's activities, it interrupts that player.

This is in response to your activities. Specifically, your turn, and an effect which occurs during it, related to a previous action you took (pinning).

Thus, this interrupts you.

You cannot interrupt someone before they start. Thus, your turn must have already begun.