Could Redcloak have his cake and eat it too?

[pendejochy]

Right now, Redcloak is presented with corrupting the gate by following the plan and sealing the rifts by joining Durkon as two separate paths. But how will these rifts be "sealed" with Redcloak's help? Won't they just be replaced with new "four color" gates that can be later on still be corrupted by Redcloak if he so chooses? Even with Xykon dealt with, he'd have a lot more time to find a new arcane caster to join him in his plot, especially considering his extended life span and the fact that one of the sealed rift locations is located above a Goblin controlled city.

Or am I misunderstanding what they mean by "seal" and there would be no rift leftover to corrupt after they were dealt with? From my understanding, if these rifts were wounds, the gates would be like bandages, and the 4-color seals would be like stitches. Either way, there would still be a wound there that could be opened back up if a malevolent party tried to do so.

[slayerx]

Right now, Redcloak is presented with corrupting the gate by following the plan and sealing the rifts by joining Durkon as two separate paths. But how will these rifts be "sealed" with Redcloak's help? Won't they just be replaced with new "four color" gates that can be later on still be corrupted by Redcloak if he so chooses? Even with Xykon dealt with, he'd have a lot more time to find a new arcane caster to join him in his plot, especially considering his extended life span and the fact that one of the sealed rift locations is located above a Goblin controlled city.

Or am I misunderstanding what they mean by "seal" and there would be no rift leftover to corrupt after they were dealt with? From my understanding, if these rifts were wounds, the gates would be like bandages, and the 4-color seals would be like stitches. Either way, there would still be a wound there that could be opened back up if a malevolent party tried to do so.

The seal the God's would make would be far stronger than the gate's which the order of the scribble came up with. As Thor explained, with just a small amount of the dark one's energy (which red cloak could provide), the God's could seal the rift with four color seal. The seal would actually be stronger than the rest of the world around it (the world is only made from 3 colors). Once sealed, the old rifts could not be used for Xykon or the dark one's plans since there is no way for the snarl to break through and threaten the gods... they would have to wait for new rifts to form somewhere else

[understatement]

Also, Redcloak's Plan is only workable because of an existent Gate, not the rift.

Which is also time for me to slip some questions of my own:

Does Thor want Redcloak or the Dark One to agree? Can the Dark One seal the rifts himself with the other gods, or do the rifts have to be sealed up by a mortal caster? If it's the latter, does Redcloak have to seal it up once or 5 times? And if it's still the latter, how would the gods plan for a 17th level mortal caster to stay alive that long?

[Riftwolf]

Also, Redcloak's Plan is only workable because of an existent Gate, not the rift.

Which is also time for me to slip some questions of my own:

Does Thor want Redcloak or the Dark One to agree? Can the Dark One seal the rifts himself with the other gods, or do the rifts have to be sealed up by a mortal caster? If it's the latter, does Redcloak have to seal it up once or 5 times? And if it's still the latter, how would the gods plan for a 17th level mortal caster to stay alive that long?

The Gods can't seal the rifts without taking the world apart. However, mortal casters can spot-weld over the rift to hold it off temporarily (60 years so far). The existing gates were made by divine and arcane magic; presumably a revised spell would be needed to make a 4 colour gate, as its unclear how quiddity and arcane magic interact.
Im not sure what you mean by a caster living long enough to seal all five gates; the Order of the Scribble were mortals, 3/6 of them had human lifespans. If you mean 'how will Redcloak survive long enough to continue spot-welding gates?' then presumably the Church of the Dark One would need to be founded and for some other goblins to take up the mantle.

[Fyraltari]

Also, Redcloak's Plan is only workable because of an existent Gate, not the rift.

Which is also time for me to slip some questions of my own:

Does Thor want Redcloak or the Dark One to agree?

Either works. Both would be ideal.

Can the Dark One seal the rifts himself with the other gods, or do the rifts have to be sealed up by a mortal caster?

The former.

Thor says that once he and his allies have access to a drop of Purple Essence, "they can handle the rest".

It seems to me that the ritual Redcloak and Durkon are supposed to carry out has the sole purpose of giving violet energy to Thor's groups who will then incorporate that energy, along with theirs, in their own spell that, I assume, would fix all five Rifts.

[Ron Miel]

Im not sure what you mean by a caster living long enough to seal all five gates; the Order of the Scribble were mortals, 3/6 of them had human lifespans.

Perhaps because sealing rifts is a high-risk occupation which humans, or races with extended lifespans, might not survive.

[Tvtyrant]

Perhaps because sealing rifts is a high-risk occupation which humans, or races with extended lifespans, might not survive.

I mean it supposedly killed Kragor.

[The Pilgrim]

According to the Crayons of Time, the Rifts were first sealed by the Scribblers (apparently using a gemstone), and later the Gates were built around the seals.

I presume, thus, that the Scribblers sealed the Rifts with a Three-Quiddity Seal, meaning they would last ****, so they built the Gates later to keep the seals from being broken by the Snarl.

And the Gates are what can be warped for The Dark One's Plan.

A Four-Quiddity Seal, however, wouldn't need a Gate to keep it from being broken by the Snarl, as according to Thor they are strong enough to withstand it.

Therefore: No Gate = No possible warping.

[understatement]

The Gods can't seal the rifts without taking the world apart. However, mortal casters can spot-weld over the rift to hold it off temporarily (60 years so far). The existing gates were made by divine and arcane magic; presumably a revised spell would be needed to make a 4 colour gate, as its unclear how quiddity and arcane magic interact.
Im not sure what you mean by a caster living long enough to seal all five gates; the Order of the Scribble were mortals, 3/6 of them had human lifespans. If you mean 'how will Redcloak survive long enough to continue spot-welding gates?' then presumably the Church of the Dark One would need to be founded and for some other goblins to take up the mantle.

That's what I'm confused on. If only mortals can seal the rifts without destroying the world, the gods are going to have to gamble that there is a TDO cleric that's both able and willing to cast purple q by the time a new rift opens.

Either works. Both would be ideal.


The former.

Thor says that once he and his allies have access to a drop of Purple Essence, "they can handle the rest".

It seems to me that the ritual Redcloak and Durkon are supposed to carry out has the sole purpose of giving violet energy to Thor's groups who will then incorporate that energy, along with theirs, in their own spell that, I assume, would fix all five Rifts.

That's also what I'm confused on. Thor wants a way to inform the Dark One of what he possesses, so he tells Durkon to tell Redcloak to tell his god. If the TDO agrees to help Thor (which of right now is not happening) then he'd be directly lending the quiddity to the other pantheons, thus negating the rift-sealing ritual.

[Fyraltari]

That's also what I'm confused on. Thor wants a way to inform the Dark One of what he possesses, so he tells Durkon to tell Redcloak to tell his god. If the TDO agrees to help Thor (which of right now is not happening) then he'd be directly lending the quiddity to the other pantheons, thus negating the rift-sealing ritual.

No, Thor didn’t ask Durkon to pass a message to the Dark One. He told him to convince Redcloak to help in the here and now.

Getting the Dark One onboard is for later.

[understatement]

No, Thor didn’t ask Durkon to pass a message to the Dark One. He told him to convince Redcloak to help in the here and now.

Getting the Dark One onboard is for later.

But here, Thor runs the risk that the Dark One disapproves of Redcloak's actions and pulls his clerical plug. Besides, Thor still has no way of communicating with the Dark One, nor any guarantee that the Dark One will continue to provide the other gods with purple q.

[Fyraltari]

But here, Thor runs the risk that the Dark One disapproves of Redcloak's actions and pulls his clerical plug. Besides, Thor still has no way of communicating with the Dark One, nor any guarantee that the Dark One will continue to provide the other gods with purple q.

Correct. Yet, that is Thor’s plan.

[Metastachydium]

Correct. Yet, that is Thor’s plan.

Well, technically, he never said that getting Redcloak on board would solve the issue in and on itself. All Thor said was that Durkon must convince the goblin to help them, and once that's done, he has to contact Thor so that they can proceed further with whatever this plan also involves. Convincing Redcloak to help is all durkon can possibly hope to do, but this does not necessarily mean that Big Purple will not have to be convinced as well ftr the procedure to actually work.
Recruiting Redcloak is clearly a necessary prerequisite for the success of the procedure, but it may not be a sufficient one. For all we know, Redcloak might simply be needed as 1.) part of a safe, indirect line of communication and 2.) a mortal agent who can act directly on the Material Plane. That does not mean he can act without the consent of his god or that Thor believes he should do so. That could be the case, of course, but since we know precious little about Thor's actual plans (he never cared to explain much of them) I would not jump too readily at conclusions.

[KorvinStarmast]

Convincing Redcloak to help is all Durkon can possibly hope to do, but this does not necessarily mean that Big Purple will not have to be convinced as well for the procedure to actually work.

Thor left a lot of "implied tasks" on the table when he gave the mission to Durkon.

[Peelee]

Right now, Redcloak is presented with corrupting the gate by following the plan and sealing the rifts by joining Durkon as two separate paths. But how will these rifts be "sealed" with Redcloak's help? Won't they just be replaced with new "four color" gates that can be later on still be corrupted by Redcloak if he so chooses?

There is a rift. The rift can be sealed. Because the Snarl is more "real" than the seal, the Snarl can break through the seal. The Gate is not the seal, it is just extra protection on the seal because the seal isn't good enough as-is.

[Fyraltari]

There is a rift. The rift can be sealed. Because the Snarl is more "real" than the seal, the Snarl can break through the seal. The Gate is not the seal, it is just extra protection on the seal because the seal isn't good enough as-is.

And so, once Thor’s Ritual is accomplished, the Dark One’s Plan is unachievable because even if a Rift is moved to, say, Dragon’s house, neither the Snarl not the Dark One are powerful enough to free the deicidal abomination.

[Peelee]

And so, once Thor’s Ritual is accomplished, the Dark One’s Plan is unachievable because even if a Rift is moved to, say, Dragon’s house, neither the Snarl not the Dark One are powerful enough to free the deicidal abomination.

Indeed.

Of course, they could potentially do a proof-of-concept f-concept and seal the rift above Gobbotopia. That would ensure the safety of the city, show that the solution works, demonstrate to TDO that he has a better bargaining chip than the Plan, and also let him keep the Plan as a bargaining chip while he thinks about it.

[Metastachydium]

Indeed.

Of course, they could potentially do a proof-of-concept and seal the rift above Gobbotopia. That would ensure the safety of the city, show that the solution works, demonstrate to TDO that he has a better bargaining chip than the Plan, and also let him keep the Plan as a bargaining chip while he thinks about it.

Yep. That's basically something like the possible solution I keep proposing: let the Church of the Dark One have the last Gate, at which point Big Purple will, in theory, initiate talks (as per the Plan) where the other gods can suggest trading the Gate-nuke for the spot-welding job. To convince the Dark One, they demonstrate the sealing procedure on the Rift above Gobbotopia City (which evryone needs sealed). He has no reason not to agree to experiment, since the sealing can be done via mortal agents and he can hang back watching and hugging his nuke on which he can fall back were the other gods to try and double-cross him. Redcloak eagerly participates, because once the Plan succeeds, he has no reason not to.

[Worldsong]

I interpreted Thor's plan as requiring both Redcloak and the Dark One, Redcloak to channel the quiddity through the ritual in the Material Plane and the Dark One to provide the quiddity. The reason why he's asking Durkon to convince Redcloak as if it's a backup plan is because for a god it's easier to contact another god than to contact their clerics, but the Dark One is not listening to Thor so maybe he'll listen to his own high cleric instead.

I don't think Thor's plan includes telling Redcloak to go against his god's wishes. If only because he'd be aware that'd be a rather hard sell. Then again this does sound like a last-ditch gambit so maybe he's fine with long odds if they're the only odds he's going to get.

EDIT: to put it otherwise, I figured Thor's first plan was 'Thor convinces the Dark One -> Dark One tells Redcloak to seal the rift -> Redcloak seals the rift on the Dark One's command' and his second plan which requires Durkon goes 'Durkon convinces Redcloak -> Redcloak convinces the Dark One -> Redcloak seals the rift with the Dark One's approval'.

[understatement]

EDIT: to put it otherwise, I figured Thor's first plan was 'Thor convinces the Dark One -> Dark One tells Redcloak to seal the rift -> Redcloak seals the rift on the Dark One's command' and his second plan which requires Durkon goes 'Durkon convinces Redcloak -> Redcloak convinces the Dark One -> Redcloak seals the rift with the Dark One's approval'.

This is what I'm confused on, along with all the other things in my life. Why would a god listen to his own high priest when the relationship has been explicitly reversed for the past 55 years? There is the impression that the Dark One flat-out doesn't care about Redcloak (see 1206, or what he said to Jirix in comparison).

As for Redcloak sealing the rift against his god's wishes, it's most likely a no-go 'cause:

a) Good luck convincing Redcloak to turn on his god. No, really, good luck.

b) One time use. The Dark one will be furious that he can no longer use the rift/gate for his power, and possibly permanently revoke RC's powers and never agree to talk with the gods ever again.

[Worldsong]

This is what I'm confused on, along with all the other things in my life. Why would a god listen to his own high priest when the relationship has been explicitly reversed for the past 55 years? There is the impression that the Dark One flat-out doesn't care about Redcloak (see 1206, or what he said to Jirix in comparison).

As for Redcloak sealing the rift against his god's wishes, it's most likely a no-go 'cause:

a) Good luck convincing Redcloak to turn on his god. No, really, good luck.

b) One time use. The Dark one will be furious that he can no longer use the rift/gate for his power, and possibly permanently revoke RC's powers and never agree to talk with the gods ever again.

Well, even if the god is the one in charge of the relationship the high priest probably still has better odds than anyone else, especially when said god has rather bluntly been refusing to talk to any of the other deities.

I think Thor is aware that this is a long shot. It's just that he doesn't exactly have a lot of options.

[Fyraltari]

I interpreted Thor's plan as requiring both Redcloak and the Dark One, Redcloak to channel the quiddity through the ritual in the Material Plane and the Dark One to provide the quiddity.

If that's the case how do they channel the three other essences? Durkon can't cast 9th level spells and they'd need casters both powerful enough and not stuck at the Godsmoot. Of which they know none.

[Worldsong]

If that's the case how do they channel the three other essences? Durkon can't cast 9th level spells and they'd need casters both powerful enough and not stuck at the Godsmoot. Of which they know none.

Mostly I'm basing my reasoning on the idea that to perform feats in the Material Plane gods need agents. I imagine that an exception could be made for these circumstances but Thor and Loki are mostly acting on their own here, they don't have the backing of the majority of the gods so far as we know.

As for why they only need a 9th spell slot worth of purple quiddity from Redcloak and not the other quiddities, the first thing that comes to mind is that since the world is already crafted from the other three quiddities they don't need to add any, they just need to manipulate what is already there. Which might still require agents, just not necessarily ones which can handle 9th level spell slots. I somewhat doubt the final ritual is going to be only Redcloak.

Did the Order of the Scribble have divine casters from all three the pantheons? Maybe as a decently powerful arcane caster Vaarsuvius can perform the part of the ritual which involves the other three quiddities, since arcane magic manipulates reality and reality already has the three quiddities.

Or maybe while Durkon is busy with Redcloak Tiamat and Rat are each trying to get a follower in position to do their part in whatever ritual Thor has planned. If my guess is correct they wouldn't need to be as strong as Redcloak.

Honestly I don't have a concrete idea for how things are going to develop, I just know that I have trouble supporting an idea which involves Thor suggesting to Durkon that Redcloak should betray his god, even if it's for the Dark One's own good. Even back at the godsmoot Thor's reasoning was the most based on a positive relationship with the mortals, trusting them and working together with them rather than treating them as pawns.

If it was Loki I'd be all in favour of 'Convince Redcloak to go behind Big Purple's back' but I don't think Thor would willingly endorse that plan.

[Fyraltari]

So when thor said "We can handle the rest" you think he meant "you and some other two people we've never heard before and came across all this sensitive information without you knowing will have to handle the rest"?

[Worldsong]

So when thor said "We can handle the rest" you think he meant "you and some other two people we've never heard before and came across all this sensitive information without you knowing will have to handle the rest"?

Maybe. As I said, I don't have a concrete idea of how it's going to work, I just really doubt that Thor would be promoting a plan based around convincing a high priest to betray his god. And given that Thor said that he'd explain to Durkon what to do next once Durkon had convinced Redcloak I also don't think it's going to be a twist of Loki suddenly revealing that the plan is to betray the Dark One.

Also I don't believe the information revealed so far makes it impossible for the Dark One to require an agent while the other gods don't. Big Purple is in a rather unique position, so what he can do and what the other gods can do can easily differ.