Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)

[Doran]

The question is, why write that story? Why not write a version of Miko who, despite a rough start in life and some initial flaws, learns from positive role-models and turns out to be an upstanding character, despite being critical and aloof?
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The name of the story is "The Order of the Stick", and the main villains are Xykon and Redcloak, the backstory is the Snarl being locked behind 5 gates.

Miko's entire purpose was like all characters, in service of the plot - to drag the characters to Azure City, to be a destabilizing element that compromised defense of the Azure city gate, and to destroy the gate so both the villains and heroes move off to the next one. She also was a showcase of how not to play a paladin, and along with Roy's Dad, shows that just because you are Good in alignment and deeds, doesn't mean you are a good person.

Rewriting that story means
a) need someone else to perform all those story roles
b) Rich has no reason to include Miko in the first place.


O'Chul and Hinjo both showcase Paladins, and the kill all monsters Paladin in the OOTS prequel, and the head Paladin in O'Chul's story show bad ways to play a paladin.

You seem to want a "better" story for Miko, but without making her one of the core protagonists, removing her key acts removes the need for her in the story.

If you want a story with " despite a rough start in life and some initial flaws, learns from positive role-models and turns out to be an upstanding character, despite being critical and aloof?" - then Roy is an example of this, as is Durkon. Haley went through her own arc of learning to be self confident. Elan faced his dreams of always wanting a perfect family. Belkar is slowly learning empathy. V is currently broken and looking for redemption.

At the end of the day, Miko is not a main character, so any screen-time for her must be justified on the plot or the effect on the main characters.

[Lacuna Caster]

Taken lessons from Miko in Jumping to Conclusions? When Dorukans castle blew up all the creatures therein got out safe. There's author confirmation of that. Sure, it came much later when asked about this and he decided he didn't want all those creatures on Elan's conscience.

Yeah, that's like saying Belkar shouldn't feel bad about killing dozens of people in a barroom brawl, because one can imagine some generous stranger off-panel raised them all from the dead.

(A reasonable argument would be "look, the early strip was mostly just a silly gag-a-day exercise, don't take it too seriously". But that apparently does not stop people taking everything that came out of Miko's mouth in deadly earnest in highly selective ways.)

The people who got "How the Paladin Got His Scar" backed the Kickstarter and read the book knowing it was going to be about O-Chul.

You think Miko is good and should have redeemed herself? Bully for you, even if the latter is simply beyond her displayed capabilities. Nothing stops you from writing that story, in your head or on paper. But since this story is NOT the story of Miko, the idea that the actual story should have been put on hold and told the Miko story you wanted would somehow "saved [Rich Burlew] a certain amount of stress and overhead" is ludicrous.

I'm not saying that the O-Chul .pdf should specifically have been replaced with one about Miko's redemption- clearly, by the time of the kickstarter, that ship had pretty much sailed. Nor am I saying that the main plotline should've been centred on her, and I'll freely admit that the hypothetical alt-version of the character I'm talking about is essentially a different person.

I'm just saying- at whatever indeterminate point between strips 150 and ~400 the author actually sat down and decided to make Miko going nuts the lynchpin of his subsequent storyline... that might have been a good time to reflect on how that was going to be really hard to write convincingly and would probably result in massive fan backlash and possibly sends a really awkward message when you contrast with other paladins in the same setting.

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[hamishspence]

It's entirely possible that The Giant had a very rough outline as early as 120.

At the very least, we can say that "Miko is atypical of the Sapphire Guard" had been brought in, around strip 265.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm just saying- at whatever indeterminate point between strips 150 and ~400 the author actually sat down and decided to make Miko going nuts the lynchpin of his subsequent storyline... that might have been a good time to reflect on how that was going to be really hard to write convincingly and would probably result in massive fan backlash and possibly sends a really awkward message when you compare and contrast with other paladins in the same setting.

... And then he went on to write a convincing character, because there is always backslash no matter what he does, and sent a message of "this is how too many players RP a Paladin, but they shouldn't because it's nuts". And yes, she is different from other Paladins, because Rich is not a crappy writer that uses cardboard cut-out stereotypes. Instead, we get a whole range of people all of whom happen to be Paladins.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

OK, I was able to follow Lacuna Caster pretty well until recently. Now I'm unsure about whether the crux of argument is "the author's values are different than mine, so the story should have been different," like I previously thought, or "the story didn't go in the specific direction I think it should have gone in, so the story should have been different" which it seems like is now being presented.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

OK, I was able to follow Lacuna Caster pretty well until recently. Now I'm unsure about whether the crux of argument is "the author's values are different than mine, so the story should have been different," like I previously thought, or "the story didn't go in the specific direction I think it should have gone in, so the story should have been different" which it seems like is now being presented.

I get the feeling that it's more "The story is not presenting all paladins in the exact form I expect paladins to be".

I'm not quite sure what that form is, mind you. I get the feeling that O-Chul is somehow "the wrong kind" of paladin according to Lacuna, but so is Miko?

GW

[Lacuna Caster]

It's entirely possible that The Giant had a very rough outline as early as 120.

At the very least, we can say that "Miko is atypical of the Sapphire Guard" had been brought in, around strip 265.

True, but at the time Paladin Blues was published, Miko was still officially intended to be around on and off until the end of the strip (because, according to the author, the battle for Azure City was originally supposed to happen much much later.) So I think we can at least conclude her Fall could not have been integral to most of the storyline as envisioned at the time.


EDIT: @Peelee, Grey_Wolf_c: Guys, I think you're distorting my position, but it's a little too vague for me to respond in detail. What specific things that I actually said do you find objectionable?

[hamishspence]

True, but at the time Paladin Blues was published, Miko was still officially intended to be around on and off until the end of the strip (because, according to the author, the battle for Azure City was originally supposed to happen much much later.)

Where did The Giant say that the Battle for Azure City was originally intended to be much later? I don't remember reading that in War & XPs.

[Peelee]

@Peelee, Grey_Wolf_c: Guys, I think you're distorting my position, but it's a little too vague for me to respond in detail. What specific things that I actually said do you find objectionable?

Much more than I can readily or easily point out, but a simple summation can be made:

The question is, why write that story? Why not write a version of Miko who, despite a rough start in life and some initial flaws, learns from positive role-models and turns out to be an upstanding character, despite being critical and aloof?

This reads very much like "why not write a version of the story that I would like better?"

[hamishspence]

If The Giant had said "Miko was going to be around till the end of the strip" in Paladin Blues, it was probably in order to avoid giving away an important spoiler.

Here:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...7&postcount=76

OK, so let's clear something up: This mythological notion that Miko was originally intended to be the indefinite romantic interest for Roy is pure fantasy and unfounded speculation. Everything from the point where Miko drags the Order to Azure City in chains in #251 is more-or-less exactly what was always going to happen, with only some tone changed. Miko, and only Miko, was intended to kill Shojo, fall from grace, and ultimately destroy the Azurite gate. No one else was ever considered for this role, and this role was assigned to her from before her first appearance in #200. It was the entire narrative purpose of her character. Of course, I couldn't SAY that in the notes to Paladin Blues, because none of that had happened yet. There was never an intention for there to be a relationship with Roy, merely a few clumsy attempts on Roy's part to start one, followed by a rebuff and the Order's capture. Miko was always a "villain", and I did not intend for Roy to have a long-running relationship with a villain, merely to make her an appealing enough antagonist that some people were rooting for her.

it's stated that before strip 200, her arc was already basically fixed.

[Lacuna Caster]

Where did The Giant say that the Battle for Azure City was originally intended to be much later? I don't remember reading that in War & XPs.

It's in the .pdf version of Paladin Blues (just before strip 174a). But again, planning or the lack thereof isn't really my primary objection.

This reads very much like "why not write a version of the story that I would like better?"

*shrugs* I dunno, Peelee. It's unlikely that anyone is going to argue for a version of the story- or any other change- that they actively dislike. All I can do is try and explain the reasons for why I (and perhaps a non-trivial subset of other readers) might have preferred a different version. Which I think I did.

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[Peelee]

*shrugs* I dunno, Peelee. It's unlikely that anyone is going to argue for a version of the story- or any other change- that they actively dislike. All I can do is try and explain the reasons for why I (and perhaps a non-trivial subset of other readers) might have preferred a different version. Which I think I did.

Saying "I don't like that this character did this thing," or "I don't like the direction the story is taking," or "I think the story is inconsistent" is one thing. Saying "I think that a character should have had a completely different arc that would have negated the character's entire purpose in the story, and I will argue against anyone who says otherwise" is quite another thing entirely.

Also, I'm incredibly disinterested when people try to shoehorn in "morally justified" arguments, even if veiled enough to skirt on the right side of the ban.

[Lacuna Caster]

Saying "I don't like that this character did this thing," or "I don't like the direction the story is taking," or "I think the story is inconsistent" is one thing. Saying "I think that a character should have had a completely different arc that would have negated the character's entire purpose in the story, and I will argue against anyone who says otherwise" is quite another thing entirely.

Why? There are people out there who will argue that the entire narrative purpose of Katherina in The Taming of the Shrew is intrinsically bad and wrong, and she's arguably a lot more central to her narrative than Miko was. If there's something screwy about the message, then having it deeply embedded in the core of the work- or even aesthetically well-structured- doesn't make it less of a problem.

[Kish]

I'm just saying- at whatever indeterminate point between strips 150 and ~400 the author actually sat down and decided to make Miko going nuts the lynchpin of his subsequent storyline... that might have been a good time to reflect on how that was going to be really hard to write convincingly and would probably result in massive fan backlash and possibly sends a really awkward message when you contrast with other paladins in the same setting.

Okay, dude, slow down. You're pointing at the backlash in isolation and drawing an entirely erroneous--counter-accuracy--conclusion from it. Was there a massive backlash involving Miko? Yes. Was there a massive backlash of the form "how dare you write a paladin as a villain" or "how dare you write such a sympathetic character as Falling and not getting redemption"? Absolutely not. You're in a tiny minority, here. To the tune of "you're the fourth person I've seen on this board, ever, express more than minimal distress at Miko's fate." There was a massive backlash against Rich for: including Miko at all, including a paladin at all, letting her talk down to the Order and not immediately get wrecked, letting her or anyone restrain Belkar, letting her defeat the Order in combat, giving her uncountered lines like "I am a paladin...whether any of you like it or not!" In short, if Rich had sat down and reflected on what his audience would want as you apparently think he should have, it wouldn't have been heroic Miko; it would have been Miko getting ground into the floor a thousand times worse before she'd ever actually done anything at all to earn it.

I don't think Rich's effort to write a Good antagonist was successful, but that's because, from where I'm sitting, what he did was write a dark-side-of-Lawful-Neutral character and fiat "good" and "a paladin" onto her. She's unambiguously an antagonist, what she's not is unambiguously good.

(Which doesn't mean people aren't, often, ridiculously unfair to Miko, as demonstrated in the latest effort to rewrite her defending herself from an evil sorceress and her definitely-not-good father into casual murder.)

[Peelee]

Why? There are people out there who will argue that the entire narrative purpose of Katherina in The Taming of the Shrew is intrinsically bad and wrong, and she's arguably a lot more central to her narrative than Miko was.

Ahhh, the "but other people also do it" defense.

If there's something screwy about the message, then having it deeply embedded in the core of the work- or even aesthetically well-structured- doesn't make it less of a problem.

"the author's values are different than mine, so the story should have been different"

[Jasdoif]

The question is, why write that story?

Because he wanted to.

The exact degrees to which that's a result of wanting to satirize "playing paladins badly", or introduce a compelling force the Order can't simply dispose of, or test the Order against an antagonist they shouldn't want to like and shouldn't want to kill, or pit Roy's desires against the rest of the Order's, or symbolize how Azure City under Shojo looks nice but isn't above applying force when viable, or wanting to bring in Shojo as a patron without the Order knowing in advance that's what he was, or simply to see how well he could do it....Are unknown (to me, anyway), and ultimately immaterial as far as the story being written goes.

[Lacuna Caster]

Okay, dude, slow down. You're pointing at the backlash in isolation and drawing an entirely erroneous--counter-accuracy--conclusion from it. Was there a massive backlash involving Miko? Yes. Was there a massive backlash of the form "how dare you write a paladin as a villain" or "how dare you write such a sympathetic character as Falling and not getting redemption"? Absolutely not. You're in a tiny minority, here.

I'm not saying that the decision to kill off Miko per se was going to generate backlash- more that all the necessary steps to make her rapid development look at least superficially plausible, and get her to the point where she could be poetically terminated, did- specifically in the form of numerous, raging and perpetually-recurring moral-justification threads.

I think the early version of the character, while absolutely flawed and deserving of critique and challenge, was reasonably clearly a decent person, though I can't really say if she maintained a particular position on the alignment barometer up to the end. I broadly agree that the 'LG antagonist' bit didn't really work, since Miko became 'villainous' to the precise extent that she started ignoring both L and/or G.

In a certain sense, I can imagine that a version of Miko who started out less clearly nuanced, competent and sympathetic might have been less of a problem, in the sense that you'd have fewer people rooting for her, and the transition to villainy would be smoother. I'd probably prefer a version who's gradually reformed, in the same sense I'd prefer the main protagonists behave less like a pack of squabbling children, but would I prefer Nega-Miko to endless Miko-bashing? ...You know, I might.

[factotum]

I think the early version of the character, while absolutely flawed and deserving of critique and challenge, was reasonably clearly a decent person

That would be the same Miko whose introduction was basically "My blades will be bathed in the blood of those responsible [for destroying Dorukan's Gate]"? Who attacked the Order for no reason better than "Roy detected as Evil" without bothering to ask questions or find out what was going on? Neither of these are the actions of a decent, rational person, much as you'd like them to be.

[MReav]

That would be the same Miko whose introduction was basically "My blades will be bathed in the blood of those responsible [for destroying Dorukan's Gate]"? Who attacked the Order for no reason better than "Roy detected as Evil" without bothering to ask questions or find out what was going on? Neither of these are the actions of a decent, rational person, much as you'd like them to be.

She was asking questions.

She asked the Flumphs, who had legitimate grievances about Roy and Elan using them as cushions and standing on their tentacles, she asked the dwarf blacksmith, who mistook them for Nale and Co, she asked the barbarian guildmaster, who truthfully identified Belkar as gleefully killing several of his members (though he wasn't put out by it), she talked with the weasel, who was upset at being fed to the trolls/ogres/trogres, and she talked with Samantha and her father, who had their own issues with the OotS.

Between the crown labeling Roy as a high-end evil doer and her own intel telling her that the Order of the Stick were a "brutal band of killers" (strip 189 third panel) willing to destroy an artifact upon which the safety of the universe depends on, she's probably got good reason to think they're very dangerous.

Miko might be a flawed character with an intended purpose, but she's not a balls-to-the-walls caricature like Kore from Goblins is (edit: or at least, had enough ambiguity in her circumstances that one could make a decent counter-argument).

[Peelee]

Between the crown labeling Roy as a high-end evil doer

I'm sorry, when did that happen?

[Jasdoif]

I'm sorry, when did that happen?

It is a silly crown.

[Peelee]

It is a silly crown.

Oh, right. I saw "the crown" and thought it was a reference to Shojo, like how the Brits use it.

[MReav]

Oh, right. I saw "the crown" and thought it was a reference to Shojo, like how the Brits use it.

No, I was being literal.

[Lacuna Caster]

Because he wanted to.

The exact degrees to which that's a result of wanting to satirize "playing paladins badly", or introduce a compelling force the Order can't simply dispose of, or test the Order against an antagonist they shouldn't want to like and shouldn't want to kill, or pit Roy's desires against the rest of the Order's, or symbolize how Azure City under Shojo looks nice but isn't above applying force when viable, or wanting to bring in Shojo as a patron without the Order knowing in advance that's what he was, or simply to see how well he could do it....Are unknown (to me, anyway), and ultimately immaterial as far as the story being written goes.

I agree it's immaterial. In the final analysis one has to judge the story based on it's inherent themes and content. However, if I had introduced this character to a readership that was largely okay with Belkar, Elan and Haley, and saw a certain wing of the fanbase react to her presence with immediate wishes for death, damnation or sexual violence despite having done nothing substantially wrong... ...then at that point I would have bent over backwards to make said character as heroic and likable as possible, just to spite those motherfuppers. It would never occur to me in a million years that I should turn that character by degrees into exactly the grotesque self-parody that her most misogynist cherry-picking detractors had always expected on the slenderest of pretexts. I would have thrown out any pre-existing plan and made it my 24-7 mission in life to prove how fundamentally wrong those people were.


But that's just me. Clearly the author had his own priorities. Deeply, deeply, baffling priorities.

[Peelee]

I agree it's immaterial. In the final analysis one has to judge the story based on it's inherent themes and content.

Too true. Speaking of, this is the discussion thread for How the Paladin Got his Scar. What did you think of it?

[Tathum]

That was one of the best works by the Giant to date, truly wonderful. Compelling characters who grow during the story, a more dynamic view of both the hobgoblins and Azure city, and great comical situations in between.

I had not realized from the main comic that most of the Paladins of the Sapphire Guard were nobles. Though maybe that is something that Shojo (and O-chul) has started to change during the twelve years since this story. Raising up good commoner soldiers with suitable personalities to the Guard. Certainly Lien don't seem that she has anything to do with any noble family.

That's because Lien isn't from a noble family. She's Kapoor's daughter. That's why she shares her mother's cool affinity with summoning and riding massive sea creatures.

Just kidding, they look nothing alike. Still, That thought did cross my mind in that final panel when they were all saying goodbye to each other.

[B. Dandelion]

When Dorukans castle blew up all the creatures therein got out safe. There's author confirmation of that. Sure, it came much later when asked about this and he decided he didn't want all those creatures on Elan's conscience.

*Sigh* Did that actually happen? It seems unlikely given how off the rest of your facts were, but every time I read something like this, I swear, I go through the same mental process.

"Well, hmm. I don't remember that happening, and it's something I would certainly have liked to remember, but I could have just missed it, and besides nobody's memory is faultless, so I should double check to be sure." Then I can't find anything of the sort in the index of Giant's comments, and once again start to feel aggrieved that I've wasted my time on more fake news.

Elan is my favorite character in the Order, and the whole "accidentally guilty of mass murder" thing has never been something I've been especially comfortable with, so I'm willing to accept a Word of God exoneration of him. It just doesn't seem to line up with the times the comic said all the goblins died, or even for that matter with Elan's MUCH later sentiments about mooks dying by the dozen.

Did it really happen?

[Keltest]

*Sigh* Did that actually happen? It seems unlikely given how off the rest of your facts were, but every time I read something like this, I swear, I go through the same mental process.

"Well, hmm. I don't remember that happening, and it's something I would certainly have liked to remember, but I could have just missed it, and besides nobody's memory is faultless, so I should double check to be sure." Then I can't find anything of the sort in the index of Giant's comments, and once again start to feel aggrieved that I've wasted my time on more fake news.

Elan is my favorite character in the Order, and the whole "accidentally guilty of mass murder" thing has never been something I've been especially comfortable with, so I'm willing to accept a Word of God exoneration of him. It just doesn't seem to line up with the times the comic said all the goblins died, or even for that matter with Elan's MUCH later sentiments about mooks dying by the dozen.

Did it really happen?

Yes, it did. Rich basically handwaved away all the deaths the exploding dungeon would have caused by saying that all the critters heard the alarms and got out or something. Its in the commentary for one of the books, IIRC. The real answer is the somewhat silly nature of DCF compared to the rest of the books, because the plot hadn't really gotten started until NCftPB, so Rich wasn't actually considering the implications when he wrote that scene.

[B. Dandelion]

Yes, it did. Rich basically handwaved away all the deaths the exploding dungeon would have caused by saying that all the critters heard the alarms and got out or something. Its in the commentary for one of the books, IIRC. The real answer is the somewhat silly nature of DCF compared to the rest of the books, because the plot hadn't really gotten started until NCftPB, so Rich wasn't actually considering the implications when he wrote that scene.

Which book? Is it the same one that confirms this?

I believe its mentioned in the bonus material or commentary for one of the books that the Guard got wind of a prophecy that a goblin in a red cloak would be responsible for some calamity or other, which is why they started going after the goblins.

You're not exactly a leading light on the matter of accuracy yourself.

[Keltest]

Which book? Is it the same one that confirms this?



You're not exactly a leading light on the matter of accuracy yourself.

well I'm fairly confidant that its Dungeon Crawling Fools, but I'm away from book at the moment and I cant check to confirm it. You are, of course, welcome to crack open the commentaries yourself if you feel the need to dispute its existence.