Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)

[Porthos]

Wow, we actually got backstory for a 3-panel gag character. Nice job screwing over another neutral goblin settlement, Redcloak.

Speaking of Reddie, the whole Redcloak/O-Chul conversation back in the 540s now has a LOT more depth. It had plenty of depth before, of course. But now? Even more:

: Humans... I've come to expect your lack of respect for the lives of MY people, but I am still continually amazed at how little you value those of your own.

: ...

: You're nothing but savages, amoral savages.

Oh, Reddie, if you only knew....

[SaintRidley]

If you weren't a backer and you want to read the story, it will be published separately for purchase at some point in the probably-not-too-distant future.

Any chance that might be doable by August? This would fit so well into my Fall syllabus, and giving my students a chance to read this would be great... And if not by August, I might pencil in two TBD dates later in the semester and keep an eye out just in case.

[Savil]

Wow. I remembered gouda was mentioned in the main comic earlier, but I didn't realize before that it was such a thing for hobgoblins.

[pnewman]

Wow. That was the best Order of the Stick _ever_! Amazing.

[Sunken Valley]

I'm going to start it. What alignments do you think the new characters are?

[Estelindis]

I wish I had better words to convey how much this story moved me. So often, the highest thing a writer aims for with her or his heroes is that they be "badass" in an asskicking, rising-bodycount sort of way. Here, we see even better than before how much more badass it is to not fight, to not kill.

We already love O-Chul. But, compared to the stand he took as a captive, it takes a different kind of courage to stand up for vulnerable lives when you're free to just walk away. I am all kinds of impressed with him.

I am similarly impressed with the other characters who travelled with O-Chul on this journey, and the various ways in which it changed them. Hinjo is one of my favourites, so I particularly liked the insight into him. But probably the person whose change struck me most was Saha Kapoor's. She remained the same fundamentally in her character and outlook, but her view of Azure City changed. She didn't let herself be so blinded by the idea of Azure City that she ignored the reality. She then changed her plans on that basis. I hope she got to Cliffport before Greysky.

I am especially moved by the message of the second chance and how Auntie O is the one person who can tell O-Chul to be nicer! (And sweet to see her brother in the background, still alive.) It's beautiful in itself... but it's also part of a message about not resting on our laurels. O-Chul already speaks to not letting ourselves be complacent in terms of being good, but Auntie tells us to take the same approach in terms of being kind, which I think is all too easy to forget.

Alongside how soothing it is to read a story about peace winning against war, it's also tragic seeing how the wheels were already in motion to bring about war again. Two single panels, years and hundreds of strips apart, showing the regalia of supreme leadership, made me snerk with great amusement, at the same time as feeling terrible about how the hobgoblin who favored peace later lost his leadership to Redcloak! (Is he still alive out there, somewhere?)

I don't take Miko's "life lessons" too seriously. She jumped really quickly to those particular conclusions on the basis of the input that she got. Gives me the impression that, even at this stage, she was somewhat rigid of mind. What I found much more interesting was her comment to O-Chul asking why he wanted to join the Sapphire Guard when they didn't want him there. Seems to me that, without her realizing it at a conscious level, the greatest meaning she finds in the Sapphire Guard is to be wanted and valued, even if only for her skills. That's the side of Miko that's always been most sympathetic to me.

The comic felt like it spoke to a ton of things in our present world, but I don't think it beat us over the head with them. Points of possible comparison are drawn and left to our consideration.

Anyway, I really want to thank the Giant a ton for writing this so beautifully. "Stick figure comics" may have even less face than "respectable" fantasy novels, but the characters and storytelling that he brings to bear in OotS are better than what I see in most literature, period. It's a privilege to read Rich's work.

[busterswd]

100% worth the wait. That was an incredibly satisfying read, and Hinjo was an unexpectedly great bonus. The plotting and pacing were just about perfect. 95 strips worth of top notch content. Thanks for the hard work, Giant!

I'm going to start it. What alignments do you think the new characters are?

Paladins? Lawful Good, even Commander Gin Jun, though he was acting fairly Lawful Evil near the end. Don't forget, it's 3.5 (alignment straitjacket), and the crux of the story is that DnD alignment doesn't necessarily translate well to real life morality. There are shades of variation in every alignment, and even somebody Lawful Good is capable of awful acts.

Miko: Lawful Neutral at this point. Blank slate with a heavy emphasis on respect for authority/mentor figures. I do love the hints of imbalance dropped here and there.

O Chul: Lawful Good.

General Nhek: Lawful Good, Neutral Good, or Lawful Neutral. She seems more concerned with common sense and protecting the country, and while she seems like a genuinely good person, it could be out of a respect for Law and a desire to protect Azure City. I'd lean toward Lawful Good.

Bo: Chaotic Neutral. She's actually one of the more believable examples of Chaotic Neutral I've seen, but that's pretty par for the course for the comic as a whole.

Saha Kapoor: Chaotic Neutral, but in another completely different and wholly believable fashion.

Pangtok (shovel hobgoblin): True Neutral. Another sort of blank slate that doesn't feel strongly about either end of the spectrum; possibly not bright enough to.

Tingtok (rabbit hunter): True Neutral/Neutral Evil. Capable of self preservation and loyalty. I have a tough time placing this one.

Cleric Supreme Leader: True Neutral/Lawful Evil. Not inherently ravage murder kill evil, and intelligent and pragmatic over anything else. And yet, not above murder for the greater benefit. Another tough call.

[Takver]

Edit: Problem solved--see below. No action required. Sorry to Rich for any undue stress.

I'm seeing some different types of art errors in my download.

By far the worst was on page 39. There are vertical lines all over the page:

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I have no idea how this happens, so maybe it is an error on my end.

Also visible in this image, on the right margin, is an example of another type of apparent art error. Many or even most of the pages of my copy contained some leftover line or color in the margins.

Here is another example of the same type of margin error (Bo's feet) from page 94:

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Almost all of the errors I saw were that type. There were too many to post them all here.

I did see at least one other apparent in-panel error, though, on page 65:

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I see I am the only one either in this thread or the Kickstarter update post to mention art errors of any kind, so I am hoping for Rich's sake that the errors are on my end or that I was somehow linked to an out-of-date draft. I am happy to give any clarifying information.

[Estelindis]

I see I am the only one either in this thread or the Kickstarter update post to mention art errors of any kind, so I am hoping for Rich's sake that the errors are on my end or that I was somehow linked to an out-of-date draft.

For my part, I saw none of these errors.

[busterswd]

I see I am the only one either in this thread or the Kickstarter update post to mention art errors of any kind, so I am hoping for Rich's sake that the errors are on my end or that I was somehow linked to an out-of-date draft. I am happy to give any clarifying information.

Those are fairly glaring, and I did not see those on my end. What are you using as your PDF viewer?

Non-technical guess: it looks like your layers/transparencies aren't working correctly, and it may be showing an underlayer. On page 95, for example, her foot cuts off cleanly, and it's just a white border underneath.

[Sunken Valley]

I found a continuity error. Hinjo is 16 here. The year is 1171, twenty two years after Redcloak assumed his title. Which means Hinjo was born in 1155, making him the same age as Miko and Roy. Was this intended?

[Takver]

Those are fairly glaring, and I did not see those on my end. What are you using as your PDF viewer?

Non-technical guess: it looks like your layers/transparencies aren't working correctly, and it may be showing an underlayer. On page 95, for example, her foot cuts off cleanly, and it's just a white border underneath.

Firefox's built-in.

Edit: The problems vanish when using a different reader. Thank you very much! I will put an edit at the beginning of my original post.

[King of Nowhere]

"As long as i am supreme leader, you won't have to worry about war with us hobgoblins".
damn. that guy started as a one-panel-joke. now he's a tragic heroic figure

Also, someone should definitely reanimate the "o-chul's facts" thread

[Carlo]

On page 63, O-Chul implies that he's 30 years old.

On page 62, he says that he had been found and adopted when he was 12 years old.

On page 57, Hinjo implies that Azurites reach legal adulthood at age 18.

In comic # 545, O-Chul tells Redcloak that he had been a fighter for 12 years before being recruited as a paladin.

That means that if O-Chul had been adopted at the age of 12, was raised by her aunt for the next six years, joined the army once he became of legal age at 18, and then served as a fighter for the next 12 years, then he would be... 30 years old at the time of HtPGHS.

Just another example of Rich's excellent attention to detail.

[Crusher]

OMG, its a BOOK. The Giant wrote almost a whole BOOK on this one...

That's amazing.

[Grey Watcher]

The fate of the Supreme Leader had me laughing for a good two minutes. That was a simply delightful callback.

Indeed, though I couldn't help but note that, while it wasn't as entirely deliberate as he meant, the ultimate arc of the Hobgoblins ends up being exactly what the late Supreme Leader threatened: they keep to themselves in the mountains, experiencing a population boom (plus attendant growth in food supplies and other infrastructure) before marching down with enough force to trample Azure City itself.

That whale though. That was a side-splitter. I always figured that paladin mounts tasted like vanilla and/or chicken.

That very much had me laughing out loud. And when my fiance asked what was so funny (I had been occasionally quoting lines and exchanges to him as I read), I literally stopped and said: "I have no idea how to give the proper context."

Since I lightly criticized the 'Miko life lessons', let me balance the scales by commenting that Rich MASTERFULLY threaded the needle of "Sapphire Guard Doing Bad Things" that has been the center of the raging controversy ever since SoD hit our shelves.

It could have so easily not worked. It could have so easily been "Just OK". Instead it was absolutely on point, and well, perfect.

It just felt a tiny bit like caricature than characterization. On the other hand, Miko is exceedingly difficult to write. Plus the rest of her scenes were very well done and believable.

It's not something I want to make a big deal about. It's just something that I see looking back on the whole story.

(As I think about it even more, I think going to the well twice on Miko Life Lessons which was what is really giving me my minor mixed feelings.)

FWIW, I think when we found out that Miko views herself as a Special Person of Destiny in the bonus strips in W&XP was handled a lot better. But this book is also not Miko's Story AND it's an exceedingly minor quibble.

So consider my thoughts as read, as I really don't want to detract from what I think will be viewed as a masterpiece in time.

I thinking having Miko be the one to save Zhou really helped make her feel, I dunno, like herself. It's also interesting to see her at a time in her life when she was literally willing to ask for guidance. By the time she ambushes the Order of the Stick that's almost unimaginable for her. But she still feels true to her older self: her decisions have little to do with any sense of empathy (and are even a step or two removed from honest to goodness "righteous wrath"). She's processing everything through her understanding of The Rules and acting on that.

You had an out of control leader. A subordinate who had misgivings but didn't have the courage of convictions to rock the boat too much until the situation changed. And a bunch of, well, sheep, going with the flow.

Until their eyes were opened to what was really going on.

Then EVERYONE, with one notable exception, stood up for What Was Right.

It took a LOT for them to see reason. But reason they still saw.

In fairness, the Commander was withholding just enough information from the other Paladins to get them to make the wrong choice (eg that there was room for doubt as to the Mantle's location).

[King of Nowhere]

regarding miko, after this story I can see her as a twisted copy of o-chul. She has a lot in common with him, but she misses... something. I think she's always wanted to be like o-chul, but she could never figure out how to. nor could she figure out that she was getting it wrong.

[Nith]

That was one of the best works by the Giant to date, truly wonderful. Compelling characters who grow during the story, a more dynamic view of both the hobgoblins and Azure city, and great comical situations in between.

I had not realized from the main comic that most of the Paladins of the Sapphire Guard were nobles. Though maybe that is something that Shojo (and O-chul) has started to change during the twelve years since this story. Raising up good commoner soldiers with suitable personalities to the Guard. Certainly Lien don't seem that she has anything to do with any noble family.

[Aedilred]

Something that occurred to me afterwards: if Miko is actually Shojo's adopted daughter (a closer relationship than I had previously assumed) then shouldn't she by rights be the heir to Azure City, rather than Hinjo?

Excelent addition to the Oots lore! Glad I was able to donate to the KS when it was on!

also (sorry for pointing this out, but there ir a grammar error in the Ettin dialogue in page 10)


There is an extra WOULD

There are one or two typos that I noticed in the story as a whole. I should have noted them as I was reading, but I forgot, so I (or someone) will have to go back and check.

There was also one of those extraneous "of"s which never fail to infuriate me, in the sense of "how good of a thing that is". Strictly speaking, I'd say it's a mistake, but it's so common these days that many would probably consider it to pass as dialect variation.

[Nith]

Something that occurred to me afterwards: if Miko is actually Shojo's adopted daughter (a closer relationship than I had previously assumed) then shouldn't she by rights be the heir to Azure City, rather than Hinjo?

Three guesses for why:

Miko hasn't actually been legally adopted, it is merely a figure of speech.

She has been legally adopted by the adoption was done under specific terms, including that she couldn't inherit the lordship of the city. Maybe to appease nobles, who we know are influential and often very conservative. The problem being not that she was a woman but that she wasn't of noble birth.

Or maybe Azure City is very patriarchal and does not allow female rulers. Considering how many women we have seen in active government roles during the comic however, I'm leaning more towards one of the first two. Or it might be something else entirely.

[Keltest]

Something that occurred to me afterwards: if Miko is actually Shojo's adopted daughter (a closer relationship than I had previously assumed) then shouldn't she by rights be the heir to Azure City, rather than Hinjo?



There are one or two typos that I noticed in the story as a whole. I should have noted them as I was reading, but I forgot, so I (or someone) will have to go back and check.

There was also one of those extraneous "of"s which never fail to infuriate me, in the sense of "how good of a thing that is". Strictly speaking, I'd say it's a mistake, but it's so common these days that many would probably consider it to pass as dialect variation.

As a monk/paladin, Miko quite possibly forfeited the rights to noble titles and other properties. Or Azure city just prioritizes blood relations over literal familial ties. In lots of medieval cultures, it was believed that the family line itself had some special property that enabled them to rule. That's why you had so much inbreeding and such going on; they wanted to preserve the strength of their blood and not "contaminate" it with common blood.

[factotum]

Hinjo said that it was widely assumed that he would be designated as Shojo's heir on his eighteenth birthday. That implies that it wasn't certain he would be the heir, so it could well be that the law of Azure City defines the heir of the current ruler as "Whoever he chooses it to be" rather than saying it has to be his eldest child or whatever. What would happen if the ruler died before he could designate his heir apparent is another question, one that we don't have enough information to answer.

[nogall]

Great, great read. Thanks Giant, totally worth the wait.
Also thanks to the fellow forumites, who deepen my appreciation of the HTPGHS by their great commentary and thoughts.

[pendell]

Well, this thread has persuaded me to purchase the story, when it comes out for non-backers. Looking forward to it!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[hagnat]

Does O-Chul really needs to pay the 250 gb to the magistrate for breaking a law outside of the jurisdiction of Azure City ?

the story is awesome, btw :D
couldn't stop reading it once i received the link to it on my email
i think i was expecting this more than any other goal from the kickstarter :)

[Aedilred]

As a monk/paladin, Miko quite possibly forfeited the rights to noble titles and other properties. Or Azure city just prioritizes blood relations over literal familial ties. In lots of medieval cultures, it was believed that the family line itself had some special property that enabled them to rule. That's why you had so much inbreeding and such going on; they wanted to preserve the strength of their blood and not "contaminate" it with common blood.

Hinjo was able to inherit despite his paladinhood, though, and Miko had left the monastery by this point, so there shouldn't be any conflict of interest between her current status and the lordship which doesn't also apply to Hinjo.

As to the blood status thing, historically I think this is something we overestimate, and reason backwards from modern principles (its being the early modern period when a lot of such ideas got started). Royals only married commoners relatively rarely, but it did happen, and the main reasons why they didn't do it more often were likely political rather than any notion of blood purity. When Edward IV married Elizabeth Woodville, the problem wasn't that he was "polluting" the royal bloodline, rather that he offended all his noble vassals who had relatives of their own they wanted to get into position (or had expended personal capital trying to secure an international marriage for him). Likewise, I believe the reason the Beauforts were explicitly barred from the royal succession was not that they were of common birth (though they were only legitimised bastards) but that interposing a new family so high in the line of succession would have presented a threat to the legitimate heirs further up, and outraged those (the Yorks/Gloucesters) further down. Not that that ultimately stopped the Beauforts from seizing the throne anyway once the legitimate Lancastrians were all gone.

But of course this is fantasy, not history, so the same principles don't necessarily apply.

Three guesses for why:

Miko hasn't actually been legally adopted, it is merely a figure of speech.

She has been legally adopted by the adoption was done under specific terms, including that she couldn't inherit the lordship of the city. Maybe to appease nobles, who we know are influential and often very conservative. The problem being not that she was a woman but that she wasn't of noble birth.

I think the first may be more likely. After all the only real reason to legally adopt someone is to acknowledge them as heir to your estate. To adopt them without giving them a claim would seem to defeat the object rather.

Or maybe Azure City is very patriarchal and does not allow female rulers. Considering how many women we have seen in active government roles during the comic however, I'm leaning more towards one of the first two. Or it might be something else entirely.

Hinjo said that it was widely assumed that he would be designated as Shojo's heir on his eighteenth birthday. That implies that it wasn't certain he would be the heir, so it could well be that the law of Azure City defines the heir of the current ruler as "Whoever he chooses it to be" rather than saying it has to be his eldest child or whatever. What would happen if the ruler died before he could designate his heir apparent is another question, one that we don't have enough information to answer.

That's true, I guess. Although it seems that Azure City has a broadly hereditary succession, it might be that it has an element of tanistry about it: that the ruler selects their heir from among a pool of available candidates within the royal family.

The "no female rulers" part might actually be it, though. That would explain why it's Shinjo's nephew who's expected to be his heir, rather than his sister.

[Kish]

This might be the exhaustion talking but one interesting thing is that the title, "How The Paladin Got His Scar," implies that O-Chul already had levels in Paladin when he got his scar. He didn't. At this time he was a single-class Fighter, not a Paladin.

At least, he wasn't technically a Paladin. But he was definitely a paladin through and through, and more of a paladin than Gin-Jun ever was or would be.

Yes, that last part. More than any other character in the book, O-Chul is The Paladin--regardless of the class listed on his character sheet.

I can't believe I didn't realize this until now: The Sapphire Guard are basically the SCP Foundation. They do horrible things in the darkness so the rest of us can live in the light.

Well, except that they get turfed out of the Guard if they do horrible things. Even, to his own shock and horror, their leader.

Something that occurred to me afterwards: if Miko is actually Shojo's adopted daughter (a closer relationship than I had previously assumed) then shouldn't she by rights be the heir to Azure City, rather than Hinjo?

As factotum pointed out but less ambiguously, Hinjo is clear that he's not actually Shojo's heir until Shojo says he is--just someone with a pretty good expectation that Shojo will say so.

It's widely assumed that my uncle will designate me his heir on my eighteenth birthday--
--but until he does, I'm just another apprentice consular.

[lothos]

That was so worth the wait.
GW

+1.

That was one of the best works by the Giant to date, truly wonderful. Compelling characters who grow during the story, a more dynamic view of both the hobgoblins and Azure city, and great comical situations in between.

Also +1.

This truly surpassed my expectations. I've greatly enjoyed a lot of what Rich has produced so far, so I had fairly high expectations for this story, but it seriously surpassed all my expectations. This really was worth the wait.

Thanks Rich. Greatly appreciated.

[MReav]

Loved the comic! O-Chul continues to be awesome.

I did have one question, though. Early on, Nguyen is injured and we get this exchange:

Nguyen: "Captain...if the hobgoblins attack again...you know you can’t count on her, right"
O-Chul: "I know. But right at this exact moment, a live coward is more useful to me than a dead hero [...] Or a half- dead hero who struggles to talk when he has several broken ribs."

And Nguyen apologizes.

Is this supposed to be:

* A joke about how in high fantasy there's very often 'dying' characters who, despite crippling injuries, manage to gasp out entire pages of exposition and warnings before finally perishing?

* An implication that Nguyen isn't really injured and was faking it out of cowardice like Zhou, hence him being able to warn O-Chul when his injuries should have precluded it?

I think he was suffering from serious wounds that left untreated, would kill him, but wasn't in so bad shape that he couldn't talk. O-Chul was scolding him for exacerbating his wounds.

Hinjo said that it was widely assumed that he would be designated as Shojo's heir on his eighteenth birthday. That implies that it wasn't certain he would be the heir, so it could well be that the law of Azure City defines the heir of the current ruler as "Whoever he chooses it to be" rather than saying it has to be his eldest child or whatever. What would happen if the ruler died before he could designate his heir apparent is another question, one that we don't have enough information to answer.

It's possible that Miko was not adopted until after Hinjo was born, meaning he had first claim to the title. Miko might be older, but he was in the running longer due to her adoptive status.

[littlebum2002]

Great! So as a (regretful) non-backer, now starts the process of checking the forums first thing every morning to see when the PDF finally gets posted for purchase. This is the one I've been waiting for!!!