Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)

[ThatNickGuy]

Honestly, I think the long conversations about the morality of the situation was important. This was O-Chul's story, after all. He's a more introspective, patient character than...well, let's face it, the majority if not all of the Order of the Stick. For me, the story somewhat reminded me of a good Star Trek episode, where characters discuss a social or moral dilemma. I honestly found it fascinating how O-Chul was torn on how to do exactly the right thing while trying to avoid as much bloodshed as possible. It's the kind of story that makes a character like O-Chul so interesting.

[Huitzil]

I got the impression that the intention of that scene was at least in part to parody a particular trend in internet argumentation deployed by certain groups. Most notably, I think, the ettin's final line is telling. Given the much-discussed decision on Rich's part (acknowledged even within the comic text) to cut down on casual misogynistic insults thrown around by characters it's hard to read the choice of words there as anything but deliberate. And from what we know about Rich's views on such matters, such an interpretation would appear entirely consistent with them.

If I'm right about the intention there, then I have no more love of such types than he does, but having picked up the parody about four or five panels into the ettin's appearance, I felt like much of the rest was belabouring the point and could have been tightened up rather.

"Take that, people whose politics I don't like!" is never a good look no matter how certain you are that the people whose politics you don't like are bad and contemptible. It was drawn out, heavy-handed, and it undermined the theme of the comic in order to get in a cheap shot that was neither witty nor insightful. Like, it went out of its way to undermine the theme so that it could avoid acting like people whose politics the author dislikes might be motivated by anything other than being bad and contemptible.

It was incredibly depressing and ruined my enjoyment of the entire story. It's a story about standing up and doing the right thing and seeing that your opponents aren't those on The Other Team, but those who promote needless conflict -- unless of course you have politics that are fashionable to feel contempt for. Then you should never, ever forget that everyone in the world hates you and feels contempt for you, and tales about innate humanity and dignity and finding common ground aren't meant to apply to YOU, because you are contemptible and you deserve to die.

[SaintRidley]

I'm sorry, but that's straight up wrong. The ettin was exactly in keeping with one of the major themes of the comic - the sophistry people will engage in so as to justify themselves when performing actions they know can only lead to a bad end. It's not just a zealot's thing. It's a thing that will come out at any time, often at the worst possible time, and it's not something that can be reasoned with directly. You have to reason around it by appealing to those who are witnesses, if at all possible. The ettin is absolutely engaged in the same game of justifying bad behavior as the Sapphire Guard leadership and everyone else.

I can probably expand on this when I'm not meant to be playing D&D.

[Porthos]

I'm sorry, but that's straight up wrong. The ettin was exactly in keeping with one of the major themes of the comic - the sophistry people will engage in so as to justify themselves when performing actions they know can only lead to a bad end. It's not just a zealot's thing. It's a thing that will come out at any time, often at the worst possible time, and it's not something that can be reasoned with directly. You have to reason around it by appealing to those who are witnesses, if at all possible. The ettin is absolutely engaged in the same game of justifying bad behavior as the Sapphire Guard leadership and everyone else.

I can probably expand on this when I'm not meant to be playing D&D.

I would also say one can find examples of said Ettin's sophistry from across all political, social, and other communities.

That is has added resonance to some due to current situations that I wouldn't dare dream to hint at? Well. That's art, inn't?

(says all I have to say about the subject)

[Estelindis]

"Take that, people whose politics I don't like!" is never a good look no matter how certain you are that the people whose politics you don't like are bad and contemptible. It was drawn out, heavy-handed, and it undermined the theme of the comic in order to get in a cheap shot that was neither witty nor insightful. Like, it went out of its way to undermine the theme so that it could avoid acting like people whose politics the author dislikes might be motivated by anything other than being bad and contemptible.

You think it's about a particular political thing? I'm surprised. I felt like plenty of things in the real world received subtle nods (open to interpretation), but I didn't get that impression about the ettin. To me, it just seemed like a generic (and funny!) dig at sophistry in the service of obvious hypocrisy.

In terms of other things I found funny, one moment I didn't mention yet was Zhao gushing over her family owning an item commemorating Hinjo's birth. At the same time as finding their different reactions to this very funny, it also highlighted how different their positions are in a more serious way. Hinjo wants to do something to make things more equal when he rules - but he has that option, and she doesn't.

[Raphite1]

My god, what an incredible story! Enjoyable and surprisingly deep new characters, a rich and much-appreciated look into existing characters, hilarious and eye-opening callbacks, a gripping and entertaining narrative while still weaving complex themes without being heavy-handed, and trope subversion left and right!

This is one of the best graphic novels I've ever read.

Congrats, Giant, and thank you so very much.


--

Btw the twist at the final grave scene made me laugh out loud.

[Huitzil]

I'm sorry, but that's straight up wrong. The ettin was exactly in keeping with one of the major themes of the comic - the sophistry people will engage in so as to justify themselves when performing actions they know can only lead to a bad end. It's not just a zealot's thing. It's a thing that will come out at any time, often at the worst possible time, and it's not something that can be reasoned with directly. You have to reason around it by appealing to those who are witnesses, if at all possible. The ettin is absolutely engaged in the same game of justifying bad behavior as the Sapphire Guard leadership and everyone else.

I can probably expand on this when I'm not meant to be playing D&D.

Everyone else gets to have people who matter and should be cared about. Ensuring that people on the other side of the hobgoblin/Azure divide are not harmed is inherently good. They are revealed to be acting out of fear or misguided belief. But people with politics the author feels contempt for, no, they are just bad and contemptible and everything they say is a lie and they should be disregarded and discarded. They do not have sincere beliefs, there is nothing motivating them, they are just evil and bad and hate women and should be held in contempt.

It's not subtle at all.

[ti'esar]

Honestly, I think the long conversations about the morality of the situation was important. This was O-Chul's story, after all. He's a more introspective, patient character than...well, let's face it, the majority if not all of the Order of the Stick. For me, the story somewhat reminded me of a good Star Trek episode, where characters discuss a social or moral dilemma. I honestly found it fascinating how O-Chul was torn on how to do exactly the right thing while trying to avoid as much bloodshed as possible. It's the kind of story that makes a character like O-Chul so interesting.

Yeah. I've been feeling like the main comic recently has sort of gone slightly overboard with trying to establish why the characters are doing what they're doing instead of finding some nitpicky solution to cut the plot short (which is not to say that I necessarily think it's being done to ward off nitpicking). But for O-Chul's story? It's totally appropriate.

[Estelindis]

It's not subtle at all.

It's subtle enough that I have no idea what you're talking about. I mean, I appreciate that very controversial subjects are not allowed to be discussed here, so maybe you can't talk about it within the rules, but whatever it is, I don't think it's nearly as obvious as you believe.

[Aedilred]

You think it's about a particular political thing? I'm surprised. I felt like plenty of things in the real world received subtle nods (open to interpretation), but I didn't get that impression about the ettin. To me, it just seemed like a generic (and funny!) dig at sophistry in the service of obvious hypocrisy.

Does Gamergate count as politics? I guess it probably could, depending on your viewpoint and how far down the rabbit-hole you go. At least, probably best if we don't discuss the content of that particular controversy. But from a couple of panels in that was the definite vibe I was getting. And while that style of argumentation isn't unique to that particular debate, it is one of the earliest better-known examples of that type of thing going on.

The Ettin's final line set the seal on it as far as I was concerned and removed any doubt in my mind that it was intended as socio-political satire. Ten years ago, I probably wouldn't have looked twice at that panel. But over the last few years Rich has made it very clear both in posts on this forum and in the comic itself that he has concerns over some of the language and approaches previously used in the strip, particularly with regard to perception of misogyny and that type of insult in particular. So there's no way that he used that term anything other than deliberately, with intent to colour the Ettin as a misogynist and consequently frame its previous sophistry in that context. Which leads back to the subject I raise above and its associates/offspring, many of which have now eclipsed it in relevance.

[Estelindis]

The Ettin's final line set the seal on it as far as I was concerned and removed any doubt in my mind that it was intended as socio-political satire. Ten years ago, I probably wouldn't have looked twice at that panel. But over the last few years Rich has made it very clear both in posts on this forum and in the comic itself that he has concerns over some of the language and approaches previously used in the strip, particularly with regard to perception of misogyny and that type of insult in particular. So there's no way that he used that term anything other than deliberately, with intent to colour the Ettin as a misogynist and consequently frame its previous sophistry in that context. Which leads back to the subject I raise above and its associates/offspring, many of which have now eclipsed it in relevance.

I really don't see this at all. The ettin's final line contains a very generic insult towards women. If anything, it's the generic insult towards women. The character towards whom the ettin is expressing hatred at that moment is a woman. I imagine it would hurl the most generic male insult at a man, were the target different.

Please understand, I am not trying to invalidate your experience, only pointing out that it's not some universal thing that everyone's seeing, so maybe it wasn't the author's intent.

[busterswd]

Everyone else gets to have people who matter and should be cared about. Ensuring that people on the other side of the hobgoblin/Azure divide are not harmed is inherently good. They are revealed to be acting out of fear or misguided belief. But people with politics the author feels contempt for, no, they are just bad and contemptible and everything they say is a lie and they should be disregarded and discarded. They do not have sincere beliefs, there is nothing motivating them, they are just evil and bad and hate women and should be held in contempt.

It's not subtle at all.

I reread that section and can now tell what topical religion you may be getting from it.

It's really a stretch. There's no misogyny inherent in the situation aside from the part where the initial/final targets happen to be female. There's nothing about the ettin's appearence that even suggests that group.

I also think the selfishness of the right head further distances itself from that topic.

Ultimately, it's about somebody with an incredibly nearsighted lack of accountability, and you can find examples of that pretty much anywhere, for any group of people.

Edit: Actually, after rereading your comment, you are discussing a political affiliation and not a religion. That's an even bigger stretch. It was not my first thought, and ironically, it's on the opposite side of the spectrum.

Even if you want to say the final b word was misogynistic, that sort of behavior is not limited to any one group.

[Gwynfrid]

Does Gamergate count as politics? I guess it probably could, depending on your viewpoint and how far down the rabbit-hole you go. At least, probably best if we don't discuss the content of that particular controversy. But from a couple of panels in that was the definite vibe I was getting. And while that style of argumentation isn't unique to that particular debate, it is one of the earliest better-known examples of that type of thing going on.

The Ettin's final line set the seal on it as far as I was concerned and removed any doubt in my mind that it was intended as socio-political satire. Ten years ago, I probably wouldn't have looked twice at that panel. But over the last few years Rich has made it very clear both in posts on this forum and in the comic itself that he has concerns over some of the language and approaches previously used in the strip, particularly with regard to perception of misogyny and that type of insult in particular. So there's no way that he used that term anything other than deliberately, with intent to colour the Ettin as a misogynist and consequently frame its previous sophistry in that context. Which leads back to the subject I raise above and its associates/offspring, many of which have now eclipsed it in relevance.

Having read your comment and come back to that page, I now see what you mean. I utterly missed it on the first read. OK, it's typical of me to notice things on the second, third, or tenth read. Still, I rate it as fairly subtle. Looks like some folks are way more attuned to this kind of thing than I am.

[Peelee]

It kind of felt like we where supposed to know the rangers daughter, is she someone who has shown up in the comic?

Hours since this was thrown up, and no mention at all of Redcloak's neice? It's like I don't even know this place anymore.

[Arachnologist]

Mr. Burley, this story is the reason I donated to the kickstarted initially. It's what piqued my interest and made me want to throw in money to begin with. And no matter how long it took the story was absolutely worth all the wait and I'm very grateful for it. Thank you

[Porthos]

Having read your comment and come back to that page, I now see what you mean. I utterly missed it on the first read. OK, it's typical of me to notice things on the second, third, or tenth read. Still, I rate it as fairly subtle. Looks like some folks are way more attuned to this kind of thing than I am.

I think it can fairly be called a situation of literal 'gaslighting'. Which.... Well, is not exactly uncommon. Sadly.

That's how I took it at least.

[Ornithologist]

Hours since this was thrown up, and no mention at all of Redcloak's neice? It's like I don't even know this place anymore.

If it makes you feel better, its very likely that the whole story takes place before she was born. I don't know her exact age though... dunno?

[Stabbey]

Okay, that was fantastic, just awesome all around.

A lot of the themes and commentary actually resonated with me given... current events.

[Grey Watcher]

If it makes you feel better, its very likely that the whole story takes place before she was born. I don't know her exact age though... dunno?

Definitely before Xykon came and destroyed the village: Redcloak is still killing time on the secluded island they were living on when Right-Eye finally said "nuts to this" and left. Redcloak is still there, so the whole thing with the circus and Xykon showing up definitely hasn't happened yet. (Since Reddie's card playing partner is a generic goblin, we don't know if Righty's peaced out yet or not.)

Hours since this was thrown up, and no mention at all of Redcloak's neice? It's like I don't even know this place anymore.

That's because Redcloak''s niece is clearly the general. She was polymorphed into a human and sent back in time to make sure events played out correctly. Duh.

[Aedilred]

I really don't see this at all. The ettin's final line contains a very generic insult towards women. If anything, it's the generic insult towards women. The character towards whom the ettin is expressing hatred at that moment is a woman. I imagine it would hurl the most generic male insult at a man, were the target different.

Please understand, I am not trying to invalidate your experience, only pointing out that it's not some universal thing that everyone's seeing, so maybe it wasn't the author's intent.

Well, as I say, that's probably the conclusion I would have drawn ten years ago from this comic, when Haley was feuding with Sabine and Tsukiko. But since then Rich has made a very explicit recantation of the way he's handled female characters and the terminology used concerning them, initially on the forum, and then acknowledged in the comic itself. Given his stated intents in that regard, I don't think he would have used that term lightly. Having seen both those comments and a lot of discussion about them it's hard for me to view that expression at least in any other way.

[SaintRidley]

I fail to see how that narrows down any potential political caricature to even one side of the political spectrum, when exactly that pattern of behavior and language can and does come, quite loudly, from all corners. You don't have to be a fascist to be a misogynist jerk talking nice out one side of your mouth while literally handing down oppression with your fists. Communists, liberals, conservatives, libertarians, anarchists, completely apolitical people - this is literally found in every conceivable political (or nonpolitical) group.

[ti'esar]

So, uh... why is General Nhek's first name "Claire" anyway? I thought it might be a pun, but all I can come up with is 'clear neck', which makes no sense. Is it the Giant's way of reminding readers that, even as we do finally get worldbuilding that explains why Azurite names come from several real-world East Asian cultures, this is still an inherently somewhat silly fantasy setting? Or is it maybe a reference to something?

[Jasdoif]

So, uh... why is General Nhek's first name "Claire" anyway? I thought it might be a pun, but all I can come up with is 'clear neck', which makes no sense. Is it the Giant's way of reminding readers that, even as we do finally get worldbuilding that explains why Azurite names come from several real-world East Asian cultures, this is still an inherently somewhat silly fantasy setting? Or is it maybe a reference to something?

Given Zhou's O-bo comment a little later, my best guess is some sort of "clarinet and oboe" wordplay. It wouldn't quite be up there with Spoiler Alert's Mik-Guh Fan....

[Peelee]

That's because Redcloak''s niece is clearly the general. She was polymorphed into a human and sent back in time to make sure events played out correctly. Duh.

At this point, I'm reasonably certain that she is a mercurial eternal with polymorph and time travel as at-will powers, and has over the course of her life simultaneously been every character in Stickworld. This would, of course, necessitate that she can not remember any of her past actions as a different character, so that she acts and reacts while rejecting any sense of fatalism.

We are all Redcloak's niece on this blessed day.

[Huitzil]

I fail to see how that narrows down any potential political caricature to even one side of the political spectrum, when exactly that pattern of behavior and language can and does come, quite loudly, from all corners. You don't have to be a fascist to be a misogynist jerk talking nice out one side of your mouth while literally handing down oppression with your fists. Communists, liberals, conservatives, libertarians, anarchists, completely apolitical people - this is literally found in every conceivable political (or nonpolitical) group.

You can find that behavior in many groups.

But you only score political status points by accusing specific groups of that behavior, and using that accusation to justify an all-consuming contempt toward them. Telling lies about how Communists really hate women and everything they say is a lie to justify their hatred of women is not something people all sit in Twitter circles and do for each other.

When someone makes a point of "Look at how bad and contemptible this character is! He claims that evil women-haters are not his responsibility, but it's just a cover for how he hates women!" you can say with one hundred percent confidence they are not talking about Communists. You know exactly why they are talking about. We all do. The people for whom empathy must never be extended; the people whom everyone must express contempt and hatred for, even and especially if those same people talk about how we need empathy and understanding.

[DreadArchon]

I searched the whole thread, and I didn't see this...

I notice the new Supreme Leader is a rather clever cleric. And I always wondered what happened to that guy...

Is Jirix the Supreme Leader here, and the one who Redcloak deposed? Do we have any evidence that this priest isn't Jirix?

Other than that: Great story, loved to see the O-Chul development, etc. etc.

[Ted The Bug]

You can find that behavior in many groups.

But you only score political status points by accusing specific groups of that behavior, and using that accusation to justify an all-consuming contempt toward them. Telling lies about how Communists really hate women and everything they say is a lie to justify their hatred of women is not something people all sit in Twitter circles and do for each other.

When someone makes a point of "Look at how bad and contemptible this character is! He claims that evil women-haters are not his responsibility, but it's just a cover for how he hates women!" you can say with one hundred percent confidence they are not talking about Communists. You know exactly why they are talking about. We all do. The people for whom empathy must never be extended; the people whom everyone must express contempt and hatred for, even and especially if those same people talk about how we need empathy and understanding.

I...honestly don't. I think the only commentary is about sexism. Not really attached to one's thoughts on communism or anarchy or libertarianism or anything else. And we're veering too far into real world politics anyway.

[ti'esar]

Is Jirix the Supreme Leader here, and the one who Redcloak deposed? Do we have any evidence that this priest isn't Jirix?

That was actually a mostly-joke theory before this story ever came out, but I'm inclined to think "Scar" made it seem less, not more, likely. Jirix doesn't seem to be as evil as Redcloak but as far as we've seen he's still 100 percent on board with the conquest of Azure City; he's also died twice thus far, which doesn't really fit with how cautious this guy was.

(He also showed no sign of recognizing O-Chul, but again, cautious, so I wouldn't actually count that either way)

Edit: Though what's more interesting is that it's apparently possible to be a cleric of the Dark One in good standing while believing in growing goblin strength peacefully, not by warring against humans. Which is... intriguing.

[Fitzclowningham]

This is a book in itself.

I'm beginning to doubt O-chul maximized Con. I think it was Wis. I think he started this story somewhere around 20 and finished at 24.

Thanks, Giant!

[MReav]

Edit: Though what's more interesting is that it's apparently possible to be a cleric of the Dark One in good standing while believing in growing goblin strength peacefully, not by warring against humans. Which is... intriguing.

Eh, there are a number of potential explanations.

The first is that the gods in the OOTS verse are not super-close to their subjects. Redcloak might be an exception as he is both high-priest and bearer of the Crimson Mantle, while this guy is a comparative small fry. The Paladins, supposed embodiments of Lawful Good, were running around like marauders casually slaughtering people and their leader was acting like a complete asshat.
The second is that The Dark One is not above championing any method to improve goblin lives. While The Plan might have the best overall chance, he might opt to have other, less effective methods.
The third, possibly incredibly cynical explanation is that gods in DND tend to have funky supernatural powers, including foresight. Simply put, he knew/had an inkling that Supreme Leader Mk II would be instrumental in getting an army large enough to let him overrun Azure City.