Kickstarter Discussion Thread - How the Paladin Got His Scar (SPOILERS!)

[Lacuna Caster]

Spoiler: the ettin

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In the ettin's case, his bespectacled right head argues that any retaliation against his body for his left arm attempting to crush someone with a giant club while his left head scream bloodthirsty threats is unfair to him; that the body's pursuing his victim with both legs is because he "just happened to feel like running that way"; that any suggestion he do anything to restrain his bloodthirsty left head, including simply "not run toward the person his left head is trying to crush" is an unacceptable restriction on his liberties.

And just in case it wasn't blatant enough from that that he's a lying hypocrite, someone cuts off his left head, giving him uncontested control of the entire body--and his reaction is to scream, "You bitch! I'll kill you for that!" and swing the club at her.

The goblin equivalent would be a nominally pacifist cleric who went on constantly about, "Goblins actually very rarely attack humans! What? I just felt like casting Bull's Strength on him just now! How dare you try to limit my right to cast whatever spells I please whenever I choose?"

Spoiler

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*shrugs* Like I said, I'm in no position to judge what the ettin's rant might or might not map to, politically speaking.

I would mention that even an entirely well-meaning goblin cleric who did nothing more than heal, feed and shelter hospitalised warriors would effectively be contributing to the war effort as soon as they got back on their feet. I mean, they could probably plead for ceasing hostilities, but any stiffer action to protect humans- or any lesser action to aid their own- could easily be seen as betraying their race.

[hamishspence]

Another parallel might be to "volunteer human shields".

[DavidBV]

Actually, I don't think the ettin has to relate to real life cases of violence in particular, but of any evil. My first reaction to it was thinking about local politics in my country. We have huge corruption issues being uncovered in the last years, with the party in power having over 1000 accused by justice, yet they won't stop talking about how they're the main victims of corruption and they are against it. Two heads of the same body, as of course corruption is used to feed the party and keep it in power.

[Joerg]

Great story, as always. Not as funny as the other kickstarter stories, but has enough funny scenes and much more impact on the main story. This is book -0.5.

Still, some questions remain for me:

- We know some paladins fell for their actions against Redcloaks village in SoD. But the paladins just repeat that mistake. Does no one but the commander remember, and he ignores it (perhaps subconciously)? Or did they misinterpret the reason for the falls?

- Why were the divinations of the paladins blocked regarding the hobgoblin village? Some kind of explanation would have been nice.

- At the end, are the paladins convinced that the Crimson Mantle is not in the village? If yes, why, just because two hobgoblins say so? Or do they actually think that peace is more important than searching for the Mantle, even though it may be in the village? I think I'd preferred that they insist that at least a neutral party (perhaps the angel or the ranger) searches the village.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

- We know some paladins fell for their actions against Redcloaks village in SoD. But the paladins just repeat that mistake. Does no one but the commander remember, and he ignores it (perhaps subconciously)? Or did they misinterpret the reason for the falls?

Probably, the idiot in charge just told them "don't be like those losers: remember to scan for evil before you strike" - which is why Miko was so concerned about not being able to do so. It also neatly fits with the "legalistic" approach to paladinhood where the adherence to the rules and ignoring the intent toes the line, but doesn't make you fall.

- Why were the divinations of the paladins blocked regarding the hobgoblin village? Some kind of explanation would have been nice.

It was a big enough settlement - well past the village description you give it - that it would make general strategic sense to set up that kind of defence. But if you need a different reason, there is the fact that the head cleric was conspiring against the leadership, so maybe he didn't want to be observed while he poisoned the gouda supply?

- At the end, are the paladins convinced that the Crimson Mantle is not in the village? If yes, why, just because two hobgoblins say so? Or do they actually think that peace is more important than searching for the Mantle, even though it may be in the village? I think I'd preferred that they insist that at least a neutral party (perhaps the angel or the ranger) searches the village.

The "logic" for thinking that the Crimson Mantle was there was laughable: "it must be in the one place we can't scry". Once the second in command realised that was the extent of the information, she knew it was BS of the highest order. That, coupled with the believable ignorance of the goblins is enough to decide NOT to commit general murder on a glorified hunch.

Grey Wolf

[Estelindis]

The "logic" for thinking that the Crimson Mantle was there was laughable: "it must be in the one place we can't scry".

Now that you mention it, this is roughly the same level of logic that Redcloak applied when he took O-Chul outside and insisted that he had to know about the other gates.

[infinityman]

Got it for free as a backer, and I will eagerly anticipate buying this story in book form whenever it's available! Looking forward to reading it to my kids...

[Chei]

I'm... pretty sure that $10 I threw into the Kickstarter was the best $10 I ever spent. I feel like a swindler.

My favorite bit was when O-Chul really had to examine himself and boil down his motives to exactly why he's so bent on protecting others. He just can't look at someone weaker than him and think (paraphrased badly) "I want that person to be hurt so I won't be."

Also glorious Miko. I thought it was great when she killed her commander and everyone praised her for it while she just tersely repeated "The woman was not part of the duel." I loved that as a subtle way to show how warped Miko was, even back then, and how everyone involved would fail to recognize it. Miko committed violence at the right place, right time, against the right person, for a reason nobody understood was not good.

If I wasn't for Zhou, Miko would have let O-Chul die. That's the kind of nuance I like to see.

[Nith]

Do the six Azurite tribes correspond with six real world East Asian cultures? I know there are names inspired by Japan, China, Korea and Vietnam. Are there another two that we know of?

[Kish]

In light of Rich's having said, way, way back when Azure City was first introduced, that his grasp of Asian naming traditions was too weak for the patterns people were seeing in the names of the first few Azurites introduced to be anything but coincidental, I doubt it.

[Nith]

In light of Rich's having said, way, way back when Azure City was first introduced, that his grasp of Asian naming traditions was too weak for the patterns people were seeing in the names of the first few Azurites introduced to be anything but coincidental, I doubt it.

Oh, I didn't know that. I remembered seeing a post stating the "origin" of various Azurite names and thought it was made by the Giant, but now when I searched for it I saw that someone else made it. Well that's that then.

[Aedilred]

regarding the ettin, I think people are reading too much into it, for a specific single word he uttered.

It's not just that. I felt I had a pretty good idea what the ettin was getting at about two panels after the right head started speaking, and the last line just set the seal on it. While some of that behaviour is not uncommon, the specific combination of approaches used by the ettin, and the vocabulary (indeed some of its utterances seemed lifted almost verbatim from lines I've seen IRL), made me think it was getting at something in particular.

I find it amusing how some people automatically links the ettin to their own political sensibilities and feels triggered, when the ettin himself never makes any claims outside the situation at hand that therefore can't be reasonably linked any particular ideology. Hypocrites that "understand" others' violent behavior and profit from it through inaction do exist everywhere on the political spectrum. If some particular reader feels "targeted" he has a lot to ponder about.

I should also point out that I don't think it was getting at my own political sensibilities. I am not one of the group I think it was referencing, nor am I "triggered" (really?) by it. Personally I am fully on board with mockery of that group. However, I did feel that the scene was a bit baggy and unsubtle and could have been tightened up to deliver better comedic and satirical results - and thus to an extent is exemplary of the story as a whole. That is all I was originally getting at. In trying to explain the associations, this point has been lost. If I appear exasperated it's because (firstly) it's a part of the story that's almost impossible to talk about directly thanks to the forum rules, so I can't communicate adequately with people who don't see what I see, and (secondly) because some people are making the assumption you are that the only reason for commenting on its perceived unsubtlety is because I feel personally got at, which is a long way off-base. Particularly when such assumption apparently leads people to dismiss my opinion, that's obviously rather frustrating.

It is possible to take issue with aspects of the portrayal of a character without identifying with that character, you know.

[Jasdoif]

I remembered seeing a post stating the "origin" of various Azurite names and thought it was made by the Giant, but now when I searched for it I saw that someone else made it.

Such a post does exist:

For all the Azurite names, keep in mind that I do not speak any of the languages involved and therefore could easily have mangled them or made unintended implications. However, here were the basic inspirations:

O-Chul: Korean
Soon and Mijung Kim: Korean
Miko Miyazaki: Japanese
Kazumi Kato: Japanese
Daigo D.: Japanese
Daimyo Kubota: Japanese
Sangwaan: Thai
Ho Thanh: Vietnamese
Lien: Chinese
General Chang: Chinese
Niu: Chinese
Shojo: Cribbed from Legend of the Five Rings setting, where one of the Phoenix clan families is called Shojo. Where they got it from, I have no idea.
Hinjo: Invented by me to be similar to Shojo.

For O-Chul, I avoided naming him Oh Chul because the very first speech balloon where his name is mentioned was Lord Shojo calling him to come into the room, and I didn't want people to think "Oh" was the English word oh, as in, "Oh Bob! Come in here for a minute." So I switched the spelling at the last minute to make it one word instead.

[Rogar Demonblud]

There isn't a Shojo family among the Phoenix. I wonder if he was thinking of the Unicorn's Shinjo.

Also, the Azurite cavalry must be made of Mongolian expys. Nothing else is acceptable.

[King of Nowhere]

It's not just that. I felt I had a pretty good idea what the ettin was getting at about two panels after the right head started speaking, and the last line just set the seal on it. While some of that behaviour is not uncommon, the specific combination of approaches used by the ettin, and the vocabulary (indeed some of its utterances seemed lifted almost verbatim from lines I've seen IRL), made me think it was getting at something in particular.

Well, my knowledge of american politics is sketchy, and I read it on newspapers that are tranaslated in my own language, so I would obviously miss any specific verbal pattern. Under that premise, I don't see the ettin as referring to anyone in particular ad it worked really well. (by the way, I'm curious as to what others are referring to. Can someone PM me oof which group the ettin should be a parody?)
But I think he was comedy relief as much as anything else; when reading I was noticing how the humor was much more subdued than in the traditional strip, which fits with o-chul being a stoic, serious character. then the ettin arrived (in the middle of a sad burial scene, no less) and it had some really crazy dialogue. It is one of the mood whiplash that are rich burlew's signature.

[DavidBV]

I should also point out that I don't think it was getting at my own political sensibilities. I am not one of the group I think it was referencing, nor am I "triggered" (really?) by it. Personally I am fully on board with mockery of that group. However, I did feel that the scene was a bit baggy and unsubtle and could have been tightened up to deliver better comedic and satirical results - and thus to an extent is exemplary of the story as a whole. That is all I was originally getting at. In trying to explain the associations, this point has been lost. If I appear exasperated it's because (firstly) it's a part of the story that's almost impossible to talk about directly thanks to the forum rules, so I can't communicate adequately with people who don't see what I see, and (secondly) because some people are making the assumption you are that the only reason for commenting on its perceived unsubtlety is because I feel personally got at, which is a long way off-base. Particularly when such assumption apparently leads people to dismiss my opinion, that's obviously rather frustrating.

It is possible to take issue with aspects of the portrayal of a character without identifying with that character, you know.

Well, in case it can alleviate some of your frustration, I didn't mean you by the above, but people who said it depressed them, ruined their day, ruined the whole book for them, etc.

[Onyavar]

I seldom cry when reading books. The death of Zhou bo was foreshadowed so much that I wasn't surprised when O-Chul walked up to that grave.

I shed tears of joy the next page.

All in all a truly wonderful story.

[Chei]

I seldom cry when reading books. The death of Zhou bo was foreshadowed so much that I wasn't surprised when O-Chul walked up to that grave.

I shed tears of joy the next page.

All in all a truly wonderful story.

Right? As soon as O-Chul told that wounded guy he needed a live coward more than a dead hero, I was like 'DUDE STOP THAT'S A DEATH FLAG!'

[factotum]

Well, my knowledge of american politics is sketchy, and I read it on newspapers that are tranaslated in my own language, so I would obviously miss any specific verbal pattern.

Aedilred is British, so his knowledge of American politics may not be any stronger than yours.

[AchtungNight]

Just want to repeat here as I have said in two other places that the story was stupendously awesome. Thanks Rich!

Best character- Zu Bo. Or O'Bo as I like to call her. :)

Best lines- "He died as he lived." "Serving his people?" "I was gonna say 'sitting on his ass in the mud', but yeah, let's go with that."

The above exchange and Hobgoblin General's Not So Different moment with the Sapphire Guard Commander (can't remember his name) had me laughing my butt off. As did the moment where a certain Hobgoblin cleric triumphed (he was a very close second to Best Character).

Keep up the good work.

And to answer a poster on the first page, we have two badass rangers in the comic now. The girl from this story is the second. The first is of course the handsome and very well-spoken Halfling with a dagger at my neck (please lower it now, Belkar my friend, please!).

Peace! Out.

[Nith]

Such a post does exist:

Thank you! I looked in the index for it but couldn't find it, then I found a similar post by someone else and thought that was the one I recalled.

Still, only those four countries/cultures. I suppose the Giant might not have any real-world cultures in mind for the last two tribes.

I really liked the worldbuilding where the six tribes were mentioned and then later the gyeoltu was heavily implied to be from the pseudo-Korean tribe in particular, not general Azurite culture. This kind of view of the distinct pre-Azurite cultures that still remain in some small form enlarges the setting in a beutiful way.

[King of Nowhere]

on a completely unrelated note, I just realized how many similarities there are between o-chul in this book and galad from the wheel of time, specifically from his time among the children of the light. I shall put it under spoiler for those who may be reading the wheel of time

Spoiler: wheel of time books 11-12 spoilers

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both o-chul and galad are extremely honorable and extremely selfless people who come in contact with an organization that should embody the lawful good ideal. but in both cases, this organization - the sapphire guard for o-chul, the children of the light for galad - took a turn for fanatism, intollerance, and just murdering anyone who was different from them. and o-chul/galad saw that there was wrong within this organization, and opposed it, peacefully. the leaders of the organization got mad at them and tried to remove them - galad was betrayed and accused by asunawa, o-chul was attacked by gin jun. And yet they endured for the sake of those who depended on them, and they were such a shining example of the very ideals that the orders were supposed to embody, that the common ranks sided with them and deposed their old, bad leaders. o-chul being attacked by a paladin and galad being improisoned by the questioners are surprisingly similar. And I don't think rich has read the wheel of time; there must be a trope about a good guy persuading people through the sheer force of his stoic determination to do what is right.
aside from those similarities, o-chul is actually a better man than galad; galad is unyielding on his moral code and oblivious to consequences, and in fact he has in common with miko more than is healty - though that changed after his character development in book 13. o-chul is capable of adapting, and he put the wellbeing of people above the strict adeherence to his moral code. I think if galad had been in o-chul place, he would have challenged gin jun to duel and done his best to kill him. but even if successful (he is a pretty badass swordsman after all), he wouldn't have earned the respect of the paladins and goblins alike as o-chul did. conversely, o-chul would have probably tried to talk valda into surrendering, and he would have been killed.

[Lord Torath]

And to answer a poster on the first page, we have two badass rangers in the comic now. The girl from this story is the second. The first is of course the handsome and very well-spoken Halfling with a dagger at my neck (please lower it now, Belkar my friend, please!).Peace! Out.

He's standing on a stool, isn't he? But simply moving away won't help, as he's got that +20 Ring of Jumping. Blink twice if you need help. I'll send Roy.

[Xapi]

When I read the ettin part, it was pretty clear to me that the mindset portrayed and being mocked by this wasn't the mindset of a particular politial group, but a mindset that is common amongst many different groups, I was going to qualify "that have some more extreme members", but seriously, wich group doesnt?

I could transalte the ettin's mindset to members of incredibly different and many times opposed groups of political affiliation, and I think it would be pretty accurate, if probably against the Forum Rules.

So I think it's clear that he is making a jab at those who hide themselves under a facade of politeness while the more "in your face" members of their affiliation bear the bruntness of their less likable views or methods, indepedently of the particular stance or policy that these people represent.

[Joerg]

Probably, the idiot in charge just told them "don't be like those losers: remember to scan for evil before you strike" - which is why Miko was so concerned about not being able to do so. It also neatly fits with the "legalistic" approach to paladinhood where the adherence to the rules and ignoring the intent toes the line, but doesn't make you fall.

I don't think that explanation fits. The commander specifically tells Miko that it's OK to kill even those which aren't 'technically' evil. If one of the other paladins overhears talk like that and remembers the raid 22 years ago, I'd expect them to say 'wait, no, isn't that specifically why <name> fell?'. Perhaps they are all too young and the SG doesn't teach their new members about earlier mistakes.

It was a big enough settlement - well past the village description you give it - that it would make general strategic sense to set up that kind of defence. But if you need a different reason, there is the fact that the head cleric was conspiring against the leadership, so maybe he didn't want to be observed while he poisoned the gouda supply?

OK, thanks. It may be that I have a wrong idea about how easily available anti-scrying magic is.

The "logic" for thinking that the Crimson Mantle was there was laughable: "it must be in the one place we can't scry". Once the second in command realised that was the extent of the information, she knew it was BS of the highest order. That, coupled with the believable ignorance of the goblins is enough to decide NOT to commit general murder on a glorified hunch.

Hmm, perhaps. There's a large difference between 'let the angel search the settlement for the word-threating artifact' and 'commit general murder', though. One of them at least suggests letting the angel cast some divinations, maybe they did that and it just wasn't shown in the story.

[SavageWombat]

Having finally gotten around (thanks email!) to reading the PDF and this thread - I'm astonished that the discussion took as long as it did to get around to politics.

Great story, Rich! You continue to be an undersung genius.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

When I read the ettin part, it was pretty clear to me that the mindset portrayed and being mocked by this wasn't the mindset of a particular politial group, but a mindset that is common amongst many different groups, I was going to qualify "that have some more extreme members", but seriously, wich group doesnt?

I could transalte the ettin's mindset to members of incredibly different and many times opposed groups of political affiliation, and I think it would be pretty accurate, if probably against the Forum Rules.

So I think it's clear that he is making a jab at those who hide themselves under a facade of politeness while the more "in your face" members of their affiliation bear the bruntness of their less likable views or methods, indepedently of the particular stance or policy that these people represent.

Since RL politics is off the table, we can instead exemplify from fiction. He represents any group who assists a violent one, while claiming innocence because they are not directly wielding the weapons. For example, House Lannister claimed that the actions of the Mountain's band of ravagers where out of their control during the War of Five Kings in the Song of Ice & Fire, and that they were innocent of any rapes and or pillaging that happened. There have always been people ready to profit from someone else's violent illegal actions while providing support.

Heck, it applies to the later "I'm summoning an angel, asking him to destroy the gates, and count on him killing the enemy for me when the goblins defend the gate while claiming I did nothing wrong", so it is actually a nice foreshadowing of the final conflict.

As others have said, if someone reading that scene thinks that Rich was speaking about a particular case and go on to feel offended by it ("because its too on the nose" or "its too political" or "its too immediately relevant" or whatever), that says more about the reader than the comic, which is generic enough to apply to many such situations throughout both history and fiction.

EDIT:

I don't think that explanation fits. The commander specifically tells Miko that it's OK to kill even those which aren't 'technically' evil. If one of the other paladins overhears talk like that and remembers the raid 22 years ago, I'd expect them to say 'wait, no, isn't that specifically why <name> fell?'. Perhaps they are all too young and the SG doesn't teach their new members about earlier mistakes.

Miko can't fall, so the commmander knows she can kill the entire population without risking anything, unlike him and his paladins. Given we know he is a hypocrite, it should surprise no-one that he is willing to privately give Miko orders that he can't give to the paladins as a whole. Which come to think of it, nicely reflects the ettin theme too.

Hmm, perhaps. There's a large difference between 'let the angel search the settlement for the word-threating artifact' and 'commit general murder', though. One of them at least suggests letting the angel cast some divinations, maybe they did that and it just wasn't shown in the story.

What exactly would having an angel cast a half-dozen divinations even accomplish? They can't divine the location of the Mantle (because it'd take a lot more spells than that), and the location they're at already can't be scryed.

Grey Wolf

[Doran]

Thanks for being exactly the terrible thing that I was talking about!

"This ruined the comic for me because I am a person people enjoy telling this lie about, and it reminded me how people telling this lie about me means I am to be excluded from calls for empathy."

Spoiler: Ettin Shenanigans

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I'm confused, what was the lie, and why does the Ettin stand for you?

The characteristics I can see the right ettin head having was:

• Having a beard
• Wearing glasses
• Engaging in sophistry to excuse his actions (and lack of), foreshadowing the Paladin leader
• Hypocrisy by decrying violence down to the other head and then immediately attacking once it was gone
• His last words / action being "You bitch! I'll kill you for that!"

Which do you feel are solely stereotypes of your group, and which is the lie?

Is it the word bitch? Because it could just have been "You bastard! I'll kill you for that!" or even just "I'll kill you for that!"

None of the discussions of the characters were over the fact he said "bitch", but just pointing out his sophistry and and hypocrisy, and final move to attack.

In fact O-Chul was clearly seeing the removal of the left ettin head as a test of character for the right character - if he had stopped attacking, or even just mourned the other head while seeing the consequences, then O-chul wouldn't have killed him. In fact if he'd just said "You bitch!", and not moved to attack or threatened then O-chul would have tried to make peace.

In fact, the entire end of the book is about not judging on superficial characteristics - by grouping a rules-lawyering zealot paladin with a bloody thirsty goblin general.

O'Chul also sees that even though new Supreme Leader murdered all his rivals and the old one, it is still the best course of action to not war against him, and preserve peace.

Also I've noticed from the cover that the Giant has apparently trademark the word O-Chul?
I can see why Order of the Stick, but why O-Chul? Trademarks are expensive and it's not even in the main title of the book.

Are we going to see O-chul/ MiTD plushies in the near future?

[Sunken Valley]

Does anyone know how old Hinjo is supposed to be in this? Pretty big for an 11 year old. But he's younger than Miko who is 16 in this? so how old is he?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Because it could just have been "You bastard! I'll kill you for that!" or even just "I'll kill you for that!"

I'd argue that those two phrases are not equivalent. Or rather, they could be in, say, a film, where the tone of the second could make them equivalent. But without the insult, it is too easy to read the phrase "I'll kill you for that" as less angry than the one with the insult. It's the very fact that for all his supposed calm, reasonable detachment facade, the moment that he was on his own, he immediately started acting like the old head that tells us that is was, indeed, a facade.

(I'd also say that "you bastard" is not quite as loaded an insult as "you bitch", but they are close enough for the purposes of showing the Ettin's emotional tone)

Grey Wolf