Erfworld 70, page 64

[rosebud]

Parson was able to effectively use his hit-and-run tactic because the column lacked air cover [...]. That's not a mistake that would be made again.

If you lack air cover, not having it would technically not be a mistake, but not having it is still not having it. Ansom is not as strong on air power. If Stanley's side can capture Ansom, take out the gwiffons, neutralize the archons, and turn Jillian, then his side has unmatched air superiority. And all those events are possible. Perhaps not probable, but possible. If Stanley's can also take out the forest-capable forces, there's air superiority with near impunity from counterattack.

Still, the use of Mathamancy on its own is only relevant if Parson has the ability to make decisions based on that information--which he doesn't on the opponent's turn, so having a Mathamancy magic item would not help defensively

Following up on Sihnfahl's comments, it also helps for defensive placement. "Which spot gives me the best chance of survival?" Click-punch-whirrrrrr "Ah, perfect, I'll place my troops there at the end of the turn."

I can accept loss of life on a thought out plan that failed or what not, but suicidal missions I just can't accept anyone can deem them necessary.

The Charge of the Light Brigade, immortalized by Lord Alfred Tennyson's poem, is one of the most famous accidental "suicide missions"

A small force (about 600-700) charged a mile gauntlet of canon and rifles into a force of far more men. A third were killed. A third were wounded. And the remaining men broke the line of canon.

It was caused by a miscommunication, but I don't see it as the failure that so many saw it as. If anything, it was a vision of the future. If you look at what it took to win the US Civil War or the D-Day Landing, it was the same. Grant, unlike his predecessors, was a victorious general because he was willing to be a butcher and follow up on his successes in a manner that made the sacrifice successful. D-Day was literally a blood bath, especially for the first waves, but the landing was successful and necessary for the invasion of Europe.

Now Ansom only took a minor fraction of his army of woodsy elves [...] and it was said combined with the 5 gryphons and the warlord/archons they would make a tough fight for ALL 40+ dragons. That was a fraction of the airforce as well.

He took the woodsy elves, and they are the only forest-capable units save fliers. If Parson can wipe out the fliers and woodsy elves, he has air superiority with little opposition.

Jillian was only taking the top fliers, and there are few of them. I don't have the feeling that the rest of the air forces (orlies and short-range gwiffons) are that powerful, especially by themselves.

Also Ansom now knows of this tactic and will be ready.

Many wars are lost because the commanders are fighting the last war. Parson has so many tactics available that he can -- with some reasonable probability -- divide, conquer, neutralize, and demoralize a vast part of Ansom's forces.

I'm not saying that he will. I'm just saying that he can.

[Chewy]

The Charge of the Light Brigade, immortalized by Lord Alfred Tennyson's poem, is one of the most famous accidental "suicide missions"

A small force (about 600-700) charged a mile gauntlet of canon and rifles into a force of far more men. A third were killed. A third were wounded. And the remaining men broke the line of canon.

It was caused by a miscommunication, but I don't see it as the failure that so many saw it as. If anything, it was a vision of the future. If you look at what it took to win the US Civil War or the D-Day Landing, it was the same. Grant, unlike his predecessors, was a victorious general because he was willing to be a butcher and follow up on his successes in a manner that made the sacrifice successful. D-Day was literally a blood bath, especially for the first waves, but the landing was successful and necessary for the invasion of Europe..

D-day was planned. They did EVERYTHING they could to support the landing boats. Naval arty, false information, attack on naval guns (i don't believe they had air support?). When your faced with meat grinder options you do everything you can to keep your losses low. In jillians case this is not being done. Ansom basically said go find the dragons and kill them ps. don't die. He hopes to win by pure luck.

He took the woodsy elves, and they are the only forest-capable units save fliers. If Parson can wipe out the fliers and woodsy elves, he has air superiority with little opposition.

Jillian was only taking the top fliers, and there are few of them. I don't have the feeling that the rest of the air forces (orlies and short-range gwiffons) are that powerful, especially by themselves.

My scenario was if he choose to save himself and let the siege die. That means he would still have all his units with him cept the siege. He also has flying centaurs. We dont' know thier combat capabilties either. Also even if a unit sucks numbers win the day. You have 1, 200hp dragon. I have 50, 1hp orlies that do 1 dmg to you. My orlies win. Thats what Ansom has going for him SHEER numbers.

Many wars are lost because the commanders are fighting the last war. Parson has so many tactics available that he can -- with some reasonable probability -- divide, conquer, neutralize, and demoralize a vast part of Ansom's forces.

I'm not saying that he will. I'm just saying that he can.

Is there even a such thing as morale? Theres too much unknown aspects to touch upon those kinds of tactics. Thats why i didn't bring them up.

[datalaughing]

As far as who will get the blame if it turns into a disaster, I think it's important to remember what happened last time. When they decided to send Jillian in as bait for a trap for Ansom. The plan was pretty much entirely Wanda's. I mean, she calls it Parson's plan, but it was Wanda who brings up the idea in the first place, Wanda who assures them her control will make it work, Wanda who tells them that Ansom will personally ride to her rescue yet again. Then when that doesn't happen and the plan fails, who gets the blame? Stanley blames Parson entirely, not even hinting that Wanda did anything wrong. So I think it's much more likely that if this goes south Parson will get all the blame yet again.

[Vreejack]

Even there, Vinny obviously cares about his bats, or else Ansom wouldn't have apologised to him for having to kill so many of them while they were scouting out the fort.

I didn't say they were worthless. Replacing them has a cost; I only meant that that Vinny has no emotional attachment to his bats and that he suffers no sentimental grief when they must die. No funerals. No posthumously-awarded silver stars for gallantry on the field. Just a dead bat. It is foolish to waste them, but we'll make more, eventually.

[SteveMB]

D-day was planned. They did EVERYTHING they could to support the landing boats. Naval arty, false information, attack on naval guns (i don't believe they had air support?). When your faced with meat grinder options you do everything you can to keep your losses low. In jillians case this is not being done. Ansom basically said go find the dragons and kill them ps. don't die. He hopes to win by pure luck.

At this point, Ansom's options run the gamut from bad to worse to horrible. He's making the best of it.

Is there even a such thing as morale? Theres too much unknown aspects to touch upon those kinds of tactics. Thats why i didn't bring them up.

Good question. If Erfworld mechanics allow for members of the Coalition to decide "boop this; we're outta here," that would be a likely result of this fiasco (especially if Jillian doesn't take out the wounded dwagons and their warlords).

As far as who will get the blame if it turns into a disaster, I think it's important to remember what happened last time. When they decided to send Jillian in as bait for a trap for Ansom. The plan was pretty much entirely Wanda's. I mean, she calls it Parson's plan, but it was Wanda who brings up the idea in the first place, Wanda who assures them her control will make it work, Wanda who tells them that Ansom will personally ride to her rescue yet again. Then when that doesn't happen and the plan fails, who gets the blame? Stanley blames Parson entirely, not even hinting that Wanda did anything wrong. So I think it's much more likely that if this goes south Parson will get all the blame yet again.

As you pointed out yourself, Wanda made sure that Stanley saw the original ambush plan as Parson's idea, even though it's actually fairly clear from page 41 that Parson is taking his cues from Wanda (e.g. Parson, panel 3: "So you're saying we... [set out Jillian as bait, etc]").

In this case, we don't know if Wanda has laid any such groundwork (though Stanley's "I hear you have a plan!" comment implies that Wanda has told him to expect something, and that Parson is responsible for whatever it is). Also, she is clearly surprised by Parson's plan and its success so far. On the other hand, she, not Parson, is clearly responsible for influencing Jillian. On the gripping hand, IMO, is the fact that she is so insistent that her spell will work (whether she is actually 110% confident of that, or simply putting on a good "don't let them see you sweat" front) -- if Jillian does find and attack the wounded dwagons and warlords, the obvious immediate reaction is going to focus on her.

[SteveMB]

I didn't say they were worthless. Replacing them has a cost; I only meant that that Vinny has no emotional attachment to his bats and that he suffers no sentimental grief when they must die. No funerals. No posthumously-awarded silver stars for gallantry on the field. Just a dead bat. It is foolish to waste them, but we'll make more, eventually.

I agree. Vinny's expression implies that the bat croakings cause him some immediate discomfort/disorientation, and that's what Ansom is apologizing for.

[Burrito]

I agree. Vinny's expression implies that the bat croakings cause him some immediate discomfort/disorientation, and that's what Ansom is apologizing for.

Mayby that is just because he was "linked" with them, seeing through their eyes, at their time of demise. None of the other warlords seem to have the ill effects, of Vinny when their units croak. I have a feeling it is unusual for Vinny to feel like that, otherwise Warlords would be passing out during any sort of mass combat. The death while linked thing seems to be a special circumstance that Vinny doesn't go through very often.

[Vreejack]

On the gripping hand, IMO, is the fact that she is so insistent that her spell will work (whether she is actually 110% confident of that, or simply putting on a good "don't let them see you sweat" front) -- if Jillian does find and attack the wounded dwagons and warlords, the obvious immediate reaction is going to focus on her.

I don't think she is simply putting on a brave face, here. It would be easy to admit that she had done the best job possible and that the result was now in the hands of fate, but she seems extremely confident in this case. She must have some particular reason for believing that the spell will hold---a reason that she is not sharing with anyone else.

[rosebud]

D-day was planned. They did EVERYTHING they could to support the landing boats.

They planned it, but not everything planned happened as planned. Overall it went quite well, though.

That brings up an interesting question, though: In games such as this, are plans executed as directed, or is there chance for failures? (I guess it could go either way depending on if people and percentages or weather and percentages are involved?)

Also even if a unit sucks numbers win the day. You have 1, 200hp dragon. I have 50, 1hp orlies that do 1 dmg to you. My orlies win. Thats what Ansom has going for him SHEER numbers.

My one dragon does an area flame attack on your orlies. I have a great feast of orlie meat later that night. (Of course, that attack is more likely if the orlies lack leadership or sufficient leadership. That is why capturing or neutralizing the warlords on each side is so important.) (By the way -- debates are fun. I'm not strongly advocating a point out of direct belief but out of exploration. I hope you're enjoying it, too. )

Is there even a such thing as morale? There's too much unknown aspects to touch upon those kinds of tactics. That's why i didn't bring them up.

It's an interesting idea. There certainly is in real life. One benefit the British had was the fear and belief of their superiority gave them an advantage from the start. As Voltaire satirized in reference to the execution of Admiral Byng, "in this country, it is wise to kill an admiral from time to time to encourage the others". Even though people still try to exonerate Byng, his death did just that. The British navy was tenacious, and the admirals knew it could be their death if they failed to do their utmost.

Hey, speaking about threat of death on failure to perform, that sorta reminds me of Parson.

[datalaughing]

On the gripping hand, IMO, is the fact that she is so insistent that her spell will work (whether she is actually 110% confident of that, or simply putting on a good "don't let them see you sweat" front) -- if Jillian does find and attack the wounded dwagons and warlords, the obvious immediate reaction is going to focus on her.

She was also the one, when Parson and Stanley both expressed doubt about the first plan, assuring Stanley that Ansom would come to Jillian's rescue himself. That was the one part of the plan that didn't work. So the fact that he didn't even mention anything about Wanda screwing up and blamed Parson instead seems to say something. In fact he never really threatens Wanda. Even when Parson first appears and Stanley thinks she screwed the spell up or later when Parson doesn't know anything about the battle mechanics. He never so much as implies repercussions for Wanda, only for Parson. The worst thing he ever says to her is when he gets really mad and calls her useless. So I don't see why you see this consistent pattern of behavior toward her changing at this point, especially considering that this plan could be considered Parson's far more than Wanda's. The last one was more Wanda's than Parson's, and he still got the blame.

[SteveMB]

She was also the one, when Parson and Stanley both expressed doubt about the first plan, assuring Stanley that Ansom would come to Jillian's rescue himself. That was the one part of the plan that didn't work. So the fact that he didn't even mention anything about Wanda screwing up and blamed Parson instead seems to say something. In fact he never really threatens Wanda. Even when Parson first appears and Stanley thinks she screwed the spell up or later when Parson doesn't know anything about the battle mechanics. He never so much as implies repercussions for Wanda, only for Parson. The worst thing he ever says to her is when he gets really mad and calls her useless. So I don't see why you see this consistent pattern of behavior toward her changing at this point, especially considering that this plan could be considered Parson's far more than Wanda's. The last one was more Wanda's than Parson's, and he still got the blame.

Well, the original ambush plan was presented to the Tool as Parson's, even though a close reading indicates that it's Wanda's (starting with her comments at the end of page 40, which pretty much invite anybody with a multidigit IQ to come up with a "let's set Jillian out as bait and ambush Ansom" plan without her having to directly suggest it).

That said, I see your point about Wanda having a good track record of avoiding Stanley's wrath. Part of it may be that he knows, on some level, that he needs her.

[discnerd]

What are the chances that the spell, or infatuation, actually works the other way round? Not that Jillian probably has the capability, but maybe Wanda is the one who is rationalizing how she is acting. It's just a thought, but it makes the current situation that much dicier for Team Plaid.

[SteveMB]

What are the chances that the spell, or infatuation, actually works the other way round? Not that Jillian probably has the capability, but maybe Wanda is the one who is rationalizing how she is acting. It's just a thought, but it makes the current situation that much dicier for Team Plaid.

Now that is a very interesting question. While it's unlikely that the magical spell works "the other way around", it's possible -- perhaps even probable -- that the psychological component of Wanda's sessions with Jillian has affected both of them.

If Wanda has developed some emotional bonding (if only through habituation while playing "good cop"/"caretaker"), she would want the spell to hold for reasons she could not explain (perhaps not even to herself). This might easily grow into an irrational conviction that the spell would not fail and could not fail, because she simply couldn't address that prospect rationally.

[Krelon]

hmm... this is Parsons first plan. Now if he fails, is he really that great warlord genius?

One possibility is that we [the readers] have been 'mislead'. This is not a comic about Parson Gotti, the greatest warlord of all, but an epic story about Erfworld, where The Alliance wins at first but then the story becomes intrigue/politics/personal quests with a great battle in the end (lord of the rings style). Parson could be a only a method of introduction to Erfworld, like the human companions in the british 'Doctor Who' series. Readers get a person who doesnt know the new world so everything will be explained 'in-game' for them.

If it is so, we are near a big surprize... the warlords will be croaked, Parson dismissed (returns to Earth). Then maybe Wanda and Jillian can form their own faction and re-cast the spell to summon Parson (I bet Wanda still knows the spell). Wanda knows that Parson could be the greatest warlord ever if he knew more about the world (she really is keeping him ignorant, isn't she?), so next time she'll give him time to train until the New Croatan Empire returns to take over Erfworld (Queen Jillian and Chancellor Wanda?)


more likely though, the next comic will show Jillian ignoring Ansom's cammands for the 1000th time. When very low on move, she'll decide that the chances to find the dwagons are zero, hence (without Webby/Dora near) will have no problem to order her stack to use the remaining 4 moves to reinforce Ansom and the wood elves.

it really is suspenseful , I like it

[Midgititp]

That's a very interesting theory Krelon, but killing off the one character which most of the people associate with is dangerous.

We can't associate with Jillian, Wanda, Ansom or Stanley the way we do with Parsons (he's 'one of us') and killing him off would not go over very well at all with most fans. It'd be like killing off Bourne in the first half hour of the "Bourne Ultimatum" and then having the rest of the movie about the infighting between the secret services where one character learns about the 'truth' of the whole project.

Still, it can be done, but i sort of doubt that Parson is just someone who is here to introduce us to Erfworld.

I do agree with your later thought on the direction the next comic will take, probably that is what will occur.

[mdsoze]

hmm... this is Parsons first plan. Now if he fails, is he really that great warlord genius?

One possibility is that we [the readers] have been 'mislead'. This is not a comic about Parson Gotti, the greatest warlord of all, but an epic story about Erfworld, where The Alliance wins at first but then the story becomes intrigue/politics/personal quests with a great battle in the end (lord of the rings style). Parson could be a only a method of introduction to Erfworld, like the human companions in the british 'Doctor Who' series. Readers get a person who doesnt know the new world so everything will be explained 'in-game' for them.

If it is so, we are near a big surprize... the warlords will be croaked, Parson dismissed (returns to Earth). Then maybe Wanda and Jillian can form their own faction and re-cast the spell to summon Parson (I bet Wanda still knows the spell). Wanda knows that Parson could be the greatest warlord ever if he knew more about the world (she really is keeping him ignorant, isn't she?), so next time she'll give him time to train until the New Croatan Empire returns to take over Erfworld (Queen Jillian and Chancellor Wanda?)


more likely though, the next comic will show Jillian ignoring Ansom's cammands for the 1000th time. When very low on move, she'll decide that the chances to find the dwagons are zero, hence (without Webby/Dora near) will have no problem to order her stack to use the remaining 4 moves to reinforce Ansom and the wood elves.

it really is suspenseful , I like it

My counter to this theory is not that well thought out, but it's just my instinct about storytelling.

Parson Gotti = Protagonist It's all in the name, really.

Getting rid of Parson this quickly would be like having your mane character named Samson and not having him be betrayed by his love.

[ag30476]

more likely though, the next comic will show Jillian ignoring Ansom's cammands for the 1000th time. When very low on move, she'll decide that the chances to find the dwagons are zero, hence (without Webby/Dora near) will have no problem to order her stack to use the remaining 4 moves to reinforce Ansom and the wood elves.

it really is suspenseful , I like it

Beat you to it

[ag30476]

Parson Gotti = Protagonist It's all in the name, really.

Nice catch!

But on the other hand this story is turning on...Jillian.

She's the one that betrayed the alliance. Jillian's the one that got captured. Jillian's capture set up a trap for Ansom. Avoiding the trap of Jillian's rescue forced Ansom to send his air cover to rescue Jillian. By removing the air cover to rescue Jillian, Parson got a chance to attack the siege. Needing to defend the seige caused Ansom to fall for the empty hex twap...er trap. Falling into the empty hex trap caused Ansom to call on...Jillian. So it all hangs now on Jillian. Or does it???

[Lombard]

You can't make that kind of judgement. Just because we are thrown right into the center of the "Great Western Conflict" doesen't mean that Erfworld is combat based world. If you had no previous knowledge of Earth and all of a sudden witnessed WWII you would probally say "Earthlings seems to be a very warlike race" even though were not.

Well... as noted in Parson's Klog #5 the books about Erfworld are mostly about battle histories and even include high scores. The part about 'high scores' especially tends to imply that there's a constant conflict going on. The denizens of Erfworld appear instantly, combat-ready and with predefined stats. No economic interactions outside of the gold that is produced automatically by the cities (to produce combat units) are necessary; things like food and the equipment that the units have appear automatically. So I think it's a fair conclusion to say that the world is based around combat.

[ChowGuy]

Parson Gotti = Protagonist It's all in the name, really.

Nice catch!

But on the other hand this story is turning on...Jillian.

Better Catch: Hamstard The Bastard Hamster, by Lord Hamster, © 2005 Parson Gotti.

Now admittedly, it may actually have been Rob drawing it, or Rob may have been the "friend" who supposedly drew the single frame of art, or it may have been a prequel to a scripted but not yet drawn Erfworld, but the fact remains that it would appear the name originated some time before the comic itself did.

I've said before, and will say again. Parson is not the focus of the comic as a whole, and that rather then "foreshadowing" is why he was not /is not listed on the cast page. He is more likely a supporting character to the overall Erfworld story or perhaps better a "Special Guest Star" for this pilot episode only.

His role is to introduce us to this world, as we see it through his (familiar) eyes. Once that's accomplished though the brunt of the story, if it continues past this episode, will not be on Parson and his "tactical genius". It will be even on the inter-personal relations among the Erfers themselves. I seriously doubt we'll see much of Parson, if he's in the strip at all.

[Mogster]

I don't think she is simply putting on a brave face, here. It would be easy to admit that she had done the best job possible and that the result was now in the hands of fate, but she seems extremely confident in this case. She must have some particular reason for believing that the spell will hold---a reason that she is not sharing with anyone else.

It doesn't seem like "putting on a brave face" to me either - as I mentioned earlier Wanda shows an uncharacteristic amount of emotion in this strip.

Now that is a very interesting question. While it's unlikely that the magical spell works "the other way around", it's possible -- perhaps even probable -- that the psychological component of Wanda's sessions with Jillian has affected both of them.

If Wanda has developed some emotional bonding (if only through habituation while playing "good cop"/"caretaker"), she would want the spell to hold for reasons she could not explain (perhaps not even to herself). This might easily grow into an irrational conviction that the spell would not fail and could not fail, because she simply couldn't address that prospect rationally.

Hmm... most of the speculation around Wanda's attachment to Jillian has been centered on "affection", yes? That may still be true, but this idea makes a bit more sense. And it raises another question: if Wanda's spell can partially backfire and affect them both, does that make her more or less powerful than she thinks she is?

She was also the one, when Parson and Stanley both expressed doubt about the first plan, assuring Stanley that Ansom would come to Jillian's rescue himself. That was the one part of the plan that didn't work. So the fact that he didn't even mention anything about Wanda screwing up and blamed Parson instead seems to say something. In fact he never really threatens Wanda. Even when Parson first appears and Stanley thinks she screwed the spell up or later when Parson doesn't know anything about the battle mechanics. He never so much as implies repercussions for Wanda, only for Parson. The worst thing he ever says to her is when he gets really mad and calls her useless. So I don't see why you see this consistent pattern of behavior toward her changing at this point, especially considering that this plan could be considered Parson's far more than Wanda's. The last one was more Wanda's than Parson's, and he still got the blame.

Perhaps Wanda will never be blamed because she has already brainwashed Stanley? Stanley seems to have a weak mind (starting as a common soldier probably didn't help) so it'd probably be easier to do than with Jillian.

[Chewy]

i quite enjoy intelligent debates, but analyzing a game webcomic is a bit hard. theres too much unfufilled rules and abilties.

They planned it, but not everything planned happened as planned. Overall it went quite well, though.

That brings up an interesting question, though: In games such as this, are plans executed as directed, or is there chance for failures? (I guess it could go either way depending on if people and percentages or weather and percentages are involved?)

Plans fail no matter what type of game you play. Its MUCH worse in TBS imo because of the severe limitation. If someone knows your plan and then counters it your screwed much more so in a RTS game since u can at least react in RTS.[/QUOTE]

My one dragon does an area flame attack on your orlies. I have a great feast of orlie meat later that night. (Of course, that attack is more likely if the orlies lack leadership or sufficient leadership. That is why capturing or neutralizing the warlords on each side is so important.) (By the way -- debates are fun. I'm not strongly advocating a point out of direct belief but out of exploration. I hope you're enjoying it, too. ).

i quite enjoy intelligent debates, but analyzing a game webcomic is a bit hard. theres too much unfufilled rules and abilties.

Anyways theres usually a limit to dragon breath and also a certain range to it so most likely I will still win with orilies, but if i don't then that means i just didn't have enough numbers. Its never possible to win agianst numbers =p its just a matter of getting enough thats why theres quality!



Also I think you guys are underestimating the alliances in this game. Tarfu was willing to DIE for ansom. I think this shows serious loyalty to Jetstone or the coalition itself. When your in a life or death situtation like Ansom and co you usually don't give up your life for them you get angry and scream at your leader for being stupid and getting into a situation like this. The fact that tarfu doesn't is amazing and i think it shows how close the alliance is or at least thier willing to see this through to the bitter end.

[TheTurnipKing]

No matter how you slice it, this is bad for team plaid. They've found the wounded Dwagons, quite by accident.

Jillians stack is weaker than Ansom had intended, but she seems to think she can punch through a strong dwagon hex. The only thing the wounded Dwagons have going for them is numbers, and that bonus is capped.

If the spell gets broken, the Archons and the orlies can, best case scenario, inflict some real bad damages on the wounded. Worst case scenario they could wipe them out.

If the spell DOESN'T get broken, they're still likely going to lose a hex of strong dwagons.

Either way, the spell on Jillian isn't likely to last much longer either, since the Archons have detected it.