Star Trek Discovery, finally a trailer

[RCgothic]

After episode five the thought occurs that Discovery is a newer ship than the original Enterprise!

Both Robert April and Christopher Pike were mentioned as decorated captains.
Enterprise was constructed in 2245.
Robert April commanded until 2250.
Pike commanded the Enterprise until 2262.

Discovery is set in 2256.

Enterprise is out there somewhere!

[Christopher K.]

Spoiler: Choose your pain

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After that closing scene with the mirror, did anyone else notice Stamets' name is a palindrome?

[Chen]

Spoiler: Choose your pain

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After that closing scene with the mirror, did anyone else notice Stamets' name is a palindrome?

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How is Stamets a palindrome? Stamats would be, or Stemets...

[HMS Invincible]

After episode five the thought occurs that Discovery is a newer ship than the original Enterprise!

Both Robert April and Christopher Pike were mentioned as decorated captains.
Enterprise was constructed in 2245.
Robert April commanded until 2250.
Pike commanded the Enterprise until 2262.

Discovery is set in 2256.

Enterprise is out there somewhere!

Are you sure it's not an Easter egg gone wrong?

[Christopher K.]

Spoiler

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How is Stamets a palindrome? Stamats would be, or Stemets...

Spoiler

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I swear I know what a palindrome is, and my phone autocorrected from Stamats. Is that not how his name is spelled?

[JadedDM]

Are you sure it's not an Easter egg gone wrong?

No, they're right. Enterprise is out there, it's just not commanded by Kirk yet. Spock, however, is stationed on it. He joined the crew of Enterprise in 2255.

Because of Michael's connection to Sarek, it's reasonable to expect that sooner or later, Enterprise (and Spock) will at least make a cameo. They're probably saving it for later in the season, though. Maybe even the finale.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I swear I know what a palindrome is, and my phone autocorrected from Stamats. Is that not how his name is spelled?

No, it's Stamets. He's named after an actual scientist. No word if that scientist has issued a statement on them swiping his name.

[Cikomyr]

Spoiler: Episode 4 Battle Maneouvers

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the more i think about the battle at the end of the episode, the more I think Lorca decided to minimize his noncombat crew's to complex combat manoeuvers. Instead, he goes for a simple Jump trap.

Spoiler: Episode 5 Sidekick Speculations

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Ash is totally Voq.

Seriously. They brought back the Original Series' Changeling Klingon Spies from Trouble with Tribbles.

They reconciled Klingon Spies who are altered to appear humans with the Klingon's overinflated sense of Honor seen in TNG. This is done by having a specific house in charge of these operations; seen as dishonorable by everyone else.

I really think the showwriters are REALLY big fans of the Lore.

[Sinewmire]

Spoiler: EPISODE 5

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I was very disappointed with Discovery's Klingons. Two burly armed and armoured guards were overpowered by their beaten and tortured prisoners? And on this prison ship, there appears to be NO system in case the prisoners escape?!

I liked Inquisitor Lorca's development (he killed his crew rather than let them be prisoners) but apparently they could have easily escaped anyway.

Also the usual Trek cliche of guards arriving individually and being shot instantly.

[GloatingSwine]

Spoiler: EPISODE 5

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I was very disappointed with Discovery's Klingons. Two burly armed and armoured guards were overpowered by their beaten and tortured prisoners? And on this prison ship, there appears to be NO system in case the prisoners escape?!

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Look when you are trying to insert a spy into your enemy's organisation you do not try too hard to stop them.

It's p. clear that that's what's going on given that L'Rell was the alleged "warden" of the prison ship, Ash claimed he'd been her favourite for six months, but we know she's only been there at most three and a half weeks

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Ash is totally Voq.

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Oh yes.

Also Lorca had a tribble on his desk in episode three.

I am sure this is not a coincidence.

[Darth Ultron]

Spoiler: Episode Five

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I think this episode might be the first ever ''canonical'' reference to Captain Robert April.

The Map is nice...wish we could see more maps. It had K-7, Acamar and Rura Penthe.

So captain Lorca's last ship was the USS Burnam? Man, they missed a good chance to make his former ship something like the USS Bounty :)

Sigh...I sure hope Lt. Ash is not some sort of traitor/spy/plant....

And for another big milestone.....first time ever someone said (the word that is not frack) in a Star Trek show! Hooray!

Things that Don't Make Sense

*So Starfleet is making more Spore Drives in Iowa? Iowa? Sure Trek has all ways had the ''Earth is the only planet in the Federation''.

*So the Admiral turns down the bright lights in the room by tapping a button on the wall? Was the voice activated computer control broken?

*Sigh, it is a very old Trek staple.....but why, oh, why does captain Lorca take a shuttle to the meeting? Is there some reason why the USS Discovery just does not go over to the ''meeting satellite''?

*And is the meeting like on the front lines? It would seem like such a meeting would be a bit behind the lines...like in a safe area.

*Um, the computer is all like ''it is a Klingon D7 battle cruiser'', but the ''D7'' was the ship most commonly seen in Classic Trek.....and the fancy, cool, new ''the people that made this ship have never, ever watched a single episode of Star Trek", does not look anything like it.

*Er, sure he is under a lot of pressure....but does not acting captain Saru seem a bit..well...evil...for not caring about ''Ripper''? Like should not even a hint of ''we are hurting it'' get everything stopped?

*Er, so Captain Jonathan is listed as ''one of the most decorated captains ever''. But...well...Captain Archer was a captain of Earth's Starfleet....not the Federation's Starfleet. It is like two totally different fleets. Or did the Earth Starfleet just become the Federation Starfleet somehow?

*The great captain list has three male human classic trek captains, one ENT male human captain...and, of course, the super special female human captain from the Discovery show itself. But, in like 100 years that is it? Not a single alien captain? No other female captain?

*Yet again we see the super advanced intelligent computer way beyond just about anything ever seen in most of Trek, until you get to Data, The Doctor or maybe M5.

*Er, so the Klingon prison ship flies over to Federation space, grabs the captain, and then ''goes deep into Klingon space'' all in like a couple minutes?

*Harry Mud? Really? Of all the call backs to Classic Trek they pick him? Ok, but why have him as a ''dark, evil, prisoner'' ? Harry Mud was much more of a lovable scoundrel, not a dark Sith lord. I'll bet he will turn up again.....

*Er, is ''bright light'' torture really the ''best'' the Klingon's can do? I'd think Klingon torture would use more knives....

*Well, when we see the Map....the meeting starbase sure is way, way, way to close to the Klingon border to make sense...but, oh well.

*So they have ''replicator catalysts'' ? But Um replicators won't be invented for like a century...

*Target Bird-of-Prey? Um, the prison ship is a D7 battle cruiser....not a bird of prey.

*AU's from our location? AU's? As in Astronomical Units? The distance from the Earth to the Sun? Why in the universe would Starfleet use such a thing? And on top of that, should not Starfleet be using some sort of stellar metric unit?

*I guess the Klingons don't detect the USS Discovery ''a couple of AUs'' away?

*And, um, the USS Discovery just hangs out in Klingon space...and, um, does not zip over to ''rescue the captain only a couple AUs away" Oh, but they were running ''good quiet'' with their Starfleet cloaking device, right?

*Wow, ye old Klingon disrupters are cool and disintegrate a whole target....wonder why we don't see them very often?

*Of course, again in classic Trek ways, the weapon that disintegrates a target only for no reason does not harm a main character...with plot armor.

*Raiders? Klingons have raiders now? Gee, why not just say K-Wing starfighters? (but sure the Romulans had them in Insurrection too)

*Does communication guy question an order when he is told to ''open haling frequency to the raider?'' He has to be told to do it twice!

*Is there some reason USS Discovery does not blow away the klingon raiders?

*So the bridge has some sort of crew life signs detector/indicator. Well that is a very useful bit of tech...wonder why it is not used more?

*So our 23rd century folks have normal 20th century tooth brushes?

*So sure chief engineer and doctor have a ''special relationship'' and all, but does not Starfleet have rules about fraternization among the crew?

*It is kind of odd we have not seen USS Discovery's Chief Medical Officer, normally they are around when ''medical stuff'' happens on the ship.

Final- D, this really did not feel like Star Trek at all....just more ''generic space show''.

[Cikomyr]

I tried finding pictures of the Starbase seen at the beginning of Episode 5.

Habe you guys taken a good look at it?! Its gorgeous. I looks like a (thinner) version of the classic starbase, but.. upside down.

[JadedDM]

I found it. No idea which Starbase it is supposed to be, however.

Spoiler: Image

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[Reddish Mage]

Spoiler: Episode Five

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*Er, sure he is under a lot of pressure....but does not acting captain Saru seem a bit..well...evil...for not caring about ''Ripper''? Like should not even a hint of ''we are hurting it'' get everything stopped?

Spoiler: Episode Five

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Everyone else seems to think Saru nailed the "being acting captain part" but I thought he was a ultra-rash and cruel and was refusing to listen to reason, and that was when it was Michael, but then Saru doubled-down on his rash decisions and stubbornness after tardigrade went comatose and the other crew members started laying things down.

It worked out they got the captain, but everything in the episode suggests the decision was foolhardy and amounted to torture and enslaving the sentient tardigrade.

On the other hand, the rest of your post gives me pause. You basically hate the episode and probably the series. A lot of the things you think don't make sense has already been established by the show from the beginning and its inner logic (yes the Klingon ships, like everything else, have a new look but old names), or is justified by Trek history (you admitted yourself, spore drives are made in Iowa because Earth is the only planet that ever gets referenced in Star Trek).

Anyone else out there who thinks Saru did really, truly, horrible things that should not be honored?

[SuperPanda]

Spoiler: Episode Five

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Everyone else seems to think Saru nailed the "being acting captain part" but I thought he was a ultra-rash and cruel and was refusing to listen to reason, and that was when it was Michael, but then Saru doubled-down on his rash decisions and stubbornness after tardigrade went comatose and the other crew members started laying things down.

It worked out they got the captain, but everything in the episode suggests the decision was foolhardy and amounted to torture and enslaving the sentient tardigrade.

On the other hand, the rest of your post gives me pause. You basically hate the episode and probably the series. A lot of the things you think don't make sense has already been established by the show from the beginning and its inner logic (yes the Klingon ships, like everything else, have a new look but old names), or is justified by Trek history (you admitted yourself, spore drives are made in Iowa because Earth is the only planet that ever gets referenced in Star Trek).

Anyone else out there who thinks Saru did really, truly, horrible things that should not be honored?

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I think it depends on where in the episode you are looking and how much allowance you give for character growth.

The episode sets up that Burnam has basically been keeping mum about her concerns regarding Ripper - possibly out of a lack of trust in Lorca, possibly for fear that it would put her back in prison when she was finally starting to enjoy being in starfleet again (probably former).

She reaches her breaking point just as Saru takes command.

Saru openly admits to himself that he can't see things clearly when Burnam is involved. So he ignores her at first out of his anger/fear/insecurity.

Later on they are already behind enemy lines - he's already screwed up big and he knows what he's doing. He's willing to trade the life of Ripper in the here and now in exchange for his ship and crew - and then face just punishment for his acts after. He says as much in the episode.

Only when the danger is done and he has reconciled with Burnam does he really stop to think about what is right. Lorca will want to keep studying the creature. The expierment Stamets used was illegal under federation law. Lorca will want to keep using his DASH drive - Saru knows he is going against that desire when he orders Burnam to set the creature free.

For me it reminded me a lot of Troi's command training on TNG - having to make hard calls in a no-win scenario and live with the consequences.

At the end he is clearly not happy with himself - he knows he screwed up. He also took steps to address that screw up. We saw two different Captain Saru's - the untried, untested, unsure one in this episode - and the hint of who he could be in the future.

I like the latter Captain - the latter Captain felt very starfleet. He did screw up big - and he shouldn't be praised for that. He did learn from it, and that deserves acknowledging too.

I think a theme they are aiming for is this is a time when the Federation - but more importantly our heroes - are still learning how to be the paragons of virtue we expect from Starfleet.

Spoiler: Re: Ultron

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I think this episode might be the first ever ''canonical'' reference to Captain Robert April.

- the writers seem to add a lot of Easter eggs for people who never watched and don't like Trek. I've been a life long trek fan, but I started with TNG and never watched TAS so didn't know about April before looking that up.

The Map is nice...wish we could see more maps. It had K-7, Acamar and Rura Penthe.

prior to the episode it was an artist's "near canon" rendition of space from the shows.

So captain Lorca's last ship was the USS Burnam? Man, they missed a good chance to make his former ship something like the USS Bounty :)

The USS Buran (pronounced Boo-Ran) named for the Russian STS program which never got to fly. Similarly the name ShenZhou is central to the Chinese space program.

Sigh...I sure hope Lt. Ash is not some sort of traitor/spy/plant....

I give it 50/50 odds - on the one side his story cannot line up with what we (the audience) know - on the other the show runners have made comments about westworld suggesting they would be better at keeping a secret.

And for another big milestone.....first time ever someone said (the word that is not frack) in a Star Trek show! Hooray!

can't tell if you are sarcastic but I pointedly did not care for that milestone being crossed. It didn't feel needed.

Things that Don't Make Sense

*So Starfleet is making more Spore Drives in Iowa? Iowa? Sure Trek has all ways had the ''Earth is the only planet in the Federation''.

- Let's see, deep in Fed territory? - check. Existing facilities? - check. Small easter-egg reminding us of both canon Kirk and 2009 enterprise? Check. I see no reason why not to do this.

*So the Admiral turns down the bright lights in the room by tapping a button on the wall? Was the voice activated computer control broken?

I missed the scene where they established that the old-looking space station had the same cutting edge tech as Discovery.
[/quote]
*Sigh, it is a very old Trek staple.....but why, oh, why does captain Lorca take a shuttle to the meeting? Is there some reason why the USS Discovery just does not go over to the ''meeting satellite''?

*And is the meeting like on the front lines? It would seem like such a meeting would be a bit behind the lines...like in a safe area. [/quote] this is either pure contravince to set up the arc - or a hint that the Klingons already have spies in Starfleet. Myself and others think the TOS Klingons will come back as augmented spies and that is how they knew where Lorca was.

As to why they did this - the Klingons are almost certainly tracking ships as best they can, shuttles are far less important and far less likely to be watched.

*Um, the computer is all like ''it is a Klingon D7 battle cruiser'', but the ''D7'' was the ship most commonly seen in Classic Trek.....and the fancy, cool, new ''the people that made this ship have never, ever watched a single episode of Star Trek", does not look anything like it.

valid issue - if they'd called it a D6 I'd have been fine.

*Er, sure he is under a lot of pressure....but does not acting captain Saru seem a bit..well...evil...for not caring about ''Ripper''? Like should not even a hint of ''we are hurting it'' get everything stopped?

I get the feeling you watch the show while doing other things - he literally said that he has trouble knowing what to do when he's dealing with Burnam. He set up a psych profile specifically because he didn't know if Burnam was going to trick him into getting people killed (like she got her previous Captain killed) or if his emotions would make him do the wrong thing out of spite.
[/quote]
*Er, so Captain Jonathan is listed as ''one of the most decorated captains ever''. But...well...Captain Archer was a captain of Earth's Starfleet....not the Federation's Starfleet. It is like two totally different fleets. Or did the Earth Starfleet just become the Federation Starfleet somehow?[/quote]
Jonathan Archer was the founder of the Federation. After the events of Enterprise on TV he served as a captain in the Federation's Starfleet, and I think was also a Federation president.

[/quote]*The great captain list has three male human classic trek captains, one ENT male human captain...and, of course, the super special female human captain from the Discovery show itself. But, in like 100 years that is it? Not a single alien captain? No other female captain? [/quote] I had problems with the list mostly in that apart from Archer, all the others were still in the middle of service as of six months ago. No notable captains in the 100 years in the middle?

We disagree on the representation of future tech in Discovery and have different thresholds for disbelief on how they can fit into canon.

[/quote]*Er, so the Klingon prison ship flies over to Federation space, grabs the captain, and then ''goes deep into Klingon space'' all in like a couple minutes?[/Quote] unknown amount of time between abduction and Saru knowing about it - it is unlikely they would call in Discovery if they had other ships nearby.

[/quote]*Harry Mud? Really? Of all the call backs to Classic Trek they pick him? Ok, but why have him as a ''dark, evil, prisoner'' ? Harry Mud was much more of a lovable scoundrel, not a dark Sith lord. I'll bet he will turn up again.....[/quote] based on previews i would have agreed - but I thought the actor gave a great performance. He had a sleazy air about him which fit the TOS stuff as I remember it (I don't remember it too well) while seeming affable enough. Given his circumstances and "choose your pain" he really had no room to be charming.
[/Quote]
*Er, is ''bright light'' torture really the ''best'' the Klingon's can do? I'd think Klingon torture would use more knives.... [/quote] three possibilities. 1) they target their torture. Lorca is protective and proud of his vision - he is scared of loosing his eyes. That makes this perfect.

2. The writers wanted to reference TNG

3. They used soft torture so Lorca would have energy to escape with a spy/plant.[/quote]

*So they have ''replicator catalysts'' ? But Um replicators won't be invented for like a century...

replicated - as in recreated. Poor choice of word but not a continuity error.

*AU's from our location? AU's? As in Astronomical Units? The distance from the Earth to the Sun? Why in the universe would Starfleet use such a thing? And on top of that, should not Starfleet be using some sort of stellar metric unit?

*I guess the Klingons don't detect the USS Discovery ''a couple of AUs'' away?

I know I've heard the words miles and pounds in Star Trek - my disbelief files that under "for the audience" - also I think most trek sensors look for movement and warp signatures. This is pure head-canon because there is no good reason the Klingons don't see them and attack otherwise - but space is incredibly big - with a DASH jump its possible that they could go unnoticed for quite some time if they kept their heat and radiation signals low (silent running) - not cloaked just lurking.


[/quote]*Wow, ye old Klingon disrupters are cool and disintegrate a whole target....wonder why we don't see them very often?

*Of course, again in classic Trek ways, the weapon that disintegrates a target only for no reason does not harm a main character...with plot armor.[/quote] so, if I get this right, the same complaints about "does not match TOS" visual style is used to criticize choices specifically trying to mimic TOS style?

As for Lo'rell, Lorca missed and it bounced off a bulkhead (because in Trek bulkheads are all immune to distruptor/phaser fire until the plot says otherwise - and it always has been that way).

[/quote]*Raiders? Klingons have raiders now? Gee, why not just say K-Wing starfighters? (but sure the Romulans had them in Insurrection too) [/quote] if any race in Trek has star fighters it would be the Klingons - maybe there is a reason they stopped using them in later shows).

Does communication guy question an order when he is told to ''open haling frequency to the raider?'' He has to be told to do it twice!

*Is there some reason USS Discovery does not blow away the klingon raiders?

this stuff happens all the time in Trek and non-Trek shows.

As to the raiders - they don't want to be there any longer than necessary. Dealing with the raiders gives the cruiser time to deal with them, that might allow backup, that makes them dead. Saru doesn't think like a hunter.

*So sure chief engineer and doctor have a ''special relationship'' and all, but does not Starfleet have rules about fraternization among the crew?

like they did when Tripp and T'pol hooked up? Or Riker and Troi? Or Paris and Toress?

Final- D, this really did not feel like Star Trek at all....just more ''generic space show''.

after complaining that the plot is "trek mainstay" and noting all the references to other Trek - you say it didn't feel like Trek "at all?" I honestly don't know how to respond to that. Obviously you have your feelings and you are entitled to them. I just don't see how your provided reactions/evidence matches your conclusion.

It is very clear that you dislike it. Whether the visuals are a call back to TOS (transporter effect and distruptor effect) or completely new (Klingon ship design) you strongly dislike every part of the aesthetic of the show. Pretty much all of your "it's not Trek" complaints seem to be aesthetic as well - since you openly say the plot is "trek mainstay" (and use that phrase in a negative way.

More than a few complaints seem to have come from not watching closely or paying much attention - which again is perfectly fair. If I am watching something I dislike the way you seem to dislike this show I do the same thing.

I enjoy the show. I notice it's flaws but I also notice it's good sides. Every show has both.

With how much you seem to dislike the show I would like to say with complete sincerity that I do hope someone makes a show you can enjoy sometime.

[Chen]

For the fraternization point, it's clearly not a thing in the Star Trek universe. Captain Picard was dating some scientist on his ship during one episode. Presumably there are some rules about it but she was basically directly under his command and was still appropriate (apparently).

I definitely had some issues with this episode though

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- When Saru was asking for proof, why didn't Burnam present any of the actual physical evidence she had? She just said she couldn't prove it. It would have at least been something.

- If Ash is a plant/spy, then the fight between Ash and L'rell was PURELY for the audience (no one else was around) which sits badly for me. This will be especially bad if he turns out to be Voq.

- Maybe I missed it, but the Lorca say HOW he escaped after blowing up his ship?

- Was releasing the tardigrade DIRECTLY into space really a good idea? How did they know it can actually survive hard vacuum? Also it can somehow travel that network DIRECTLY without any technology? Did they even suspect that was the case?

[Darth Ultron]

Spoiler: More Five

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*I do have a problem with the two sides of ''we are making a cool classic trek prequel show'' and ''we are making our own cool unique show''. First off, if your a ''Coolz unique showz'' person, then you really should not be making a Trek show. Go make your own ''cool show''. But once your set on making a Trek show it comes with lots of details that you just have to accept. X was X and Y was Y, and that is how it was.

A D7 battle ship has a set look. For the people to just go and make their ''randomz coolz space ship! pew pew!" and say it is a D7 battle ship is wrong.

And the thing is....it is an easy fix. Oh, look just make it a D5 battle ship...or really any other name other then ''D7''

It is like they get the easy things wrong, but then do a good job on the hard stuff. Like take the list of ''best captains ever''. So, wow, someone who knew their Trek history made that list, and it is a good list for Classic Trek Captains. But even then it does not make sense that with over 100 years of history Starfleet only had five ''great captains'', and like four of them were alive in 2255(though soon to be three..wink, wink) So no other ''great'' captains? And again, this is an easy fix as they just had to spend the ''billion dollars'' to have the video screen show like 25 names.....or maybe even scroll the names along to give the impression that there was more to the list.

And really Captain Saru does not seem so ''conflicted'' and there is no ''real conflict'' here. It is very simple: if what you are doing might even have the slightest hint of harming a lifeform...YOU DON'T DO IT. And it's only worse when people start to say ''it might be sentient''.

Maybe Ash will be a ''surgical altered Klingon ''....or maybe, just maybe..if they want to do a real call back, he'd be one of the Klingons effected by the ''argument plague'' from ENT.

[Cikomyr]

I personally stopped reasing Ultron's "things that dont make sense" a long time ago during the Babylon 5 thread. He has some good insights, but i feel like 90% of his nitpicking actually dont make sense or is something that is actually explained but he just refuses the explanation.

Otherwise, i like Ultron's commentaries.

Spoiler: Ash's Fight with T'Rell

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I also wonder about his fight against her, because they were nowhere Lorca. But then again, there is a number of speculations:

- Maybe he didnt wanted to take the risk of breaking character. It was a combat situation, and Lorca could have surged back at any second.

- Maybe Voq was resentful of T'Rell for the transmogrif. Maybe she didn't informed the other guards that he was a Klingon to make his beating more believable.

- Maybe his mind was altered so he becomes a more effective agent, and actually believes to be Ash. Ya know, akin to Sloan's dissociative memory trick he accuses Bashir of. Or the Cardassian memory implant the OO tries to convince Kira. (Now i know i have a DS9 feel of the series)

But even all that considered. Ash had a clear line of sight against TRell and a working Disruptor. He could have just shot her right there, but he engaged in hand to hand.

[Chen]

Spoiler: More Five

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Maybe Ash will be a ''surgical altered Klingon ''....or maybe, just maybe..if they want to do a real call back, he'd be one of the Klingons effected by the ''argument plague'' from ENT.

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I assume he's altered the same way Darvin was in the Trouble with Tribbles episode in TOS. Lorca's tribble may even be the one to detect him in the end.

[SuperPanda]

Spoiler: More Five

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*I do have a problem with the two sides of ''we are making a cool classic trek prequel show'' and ''we are making our own cool unique show''. First off, if your a ''Coolz unique showz'' person, then you really should not be making a Trek show. Go make your own ''cool show''. But once your set on making a Trek show it comes with lots of details that you just have to accept. X was X and Y was Y, and that is how it was.

A D7 battle ship has a set look. For the people to just go and make their ''randomz coolz space ship! pew pew!" and say it is a D7 battle ship is wrong.

And the thing is....it is an easy fix. Oh, look just make it a D5 battle ship...or really any other name other then ''D7''

It is like they get the easy things wrong, but then do a good job on the hard stuff. Like take the list of ''best captains ever''. So, wow, someone who knew their Trek history made that list, and it is a good list for Classic Trek Captains. But even then it does not make sense that with over 100 years of history Starfleet only had five ''great captains'', and like four of them were alive in 2255(though soon to be three..wink, wink) So no other ''great'' captains? And again, this is an easy fix as they just had to spend the ''billion dollars'' to have the video screen show like 25 names.....or maybe even scroll the names along to give the impression that there was more to the list.

And really Captain Saru does not seem so ''conflicted'' and there is no ''real conflict'' here. It is very simple: if what you are doing might even have the slightest hint of harming a lifeform...YOU DON'T DO IT. And it's only worse when people start to say ''it might be sentient''.

Maybe Ash will be a ''surgical altered Klingon ''....or maybe, just maybe..if they want to do a real call back, he'd be one of the Klingons effected by the ''argument plague'' from ENT.

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(Two sides) - since this seems directed at me: what I was saying is that there are parts in the episodes (like the Klingon disruptot FX) which are a homage to TOS FX but "cleaned up" to still look good on contemporary TV - this was complained about. There are also FX changes which are very off from TOD - this is also complained about.

I get that the frustration is that the homage stuff feels like it's only lipservice - but it felt off to me to have a nod to TOS get blasted while complaining that the show refuses to acknowledge TOS).

(the D7) - now I don't think you are replying to me because that is exactly what I said - we are in agreement here. Our degree of frustration is different but we agree that it was stupid to call it a D7 if they aren't going to show a D7.

(The list) - once again I think we just said the same thing - or more to the point, I think you just echo'd back my comments. Though considering the writing and producing staff recently released a list of their favorite Trek episodes (TOS, TNG, DS9, and VOY - because they didn't seem to like anything from ENT) - I think it's likely that the writers all know some Trek and made an (arguably poor) choice to make the list easily legible for the viewer instead of logical in-universe.

A common thread I see between us is that I seem to be more forgiving of things done in service of the Medium (FX changes, the short list, use of "AU" ) even when they are not the most logical within the story. I can understand how those things would bother someone though and am sympathetic.

(Saru) - no conflict? The guy flat out said that he gets flustered around Michael Burnam and second guesses everything. She is the one bringing her feelings and suspicions to him at a time when he's under great stress - and when her information will make it impossible for him to follow the orders he's been given. He doesn't want to listen to her - he feels like she's trying to sabotage his career (once again he flat out says that he was afraid of that later in the episode when the two reconcile).

By the time he knew the threat to be real he had found where his Captain was - now he needs to weigh the possible harm to a life form - on limited data - with the certainly of harm and death of his Captain. Worse, Lorca knows many secrets which could get millions killed (Federation fleet movements, security codes, strategic locations). He makes a hard call in a moment of passion and uncertainty - and he chooses wrong. He strands his ship behind enemy lines - he starts panicking. He is left between likely killing the creature or leaving his whole crew to be tortured and killed. He acknowledges that what "needs to be done" is wrong and he states he will take full responsibility for it later. He makes the hard choice - once again when there is no right answer - once again in a no-win-scenario. He wears the guilt of it for the remainder of the episode - it leads him to apologize to Michale Burnam. It leads him to finally do the right thing in the end - knowing that he's going to get he'll for it (he again flat out says he thinks Lorca will be angry at him for letting Ripper go). He asks Michael to do it with a regret in his voice - apologizing to her for not listening when she was right, and goes to hear his review. He then, still sounding down, deletes the report saying "I know what I did." - guy knows he screwed up and he feels guilty - how is that not being in conflict?

(Augment plague) - I strongly suspect that Ash is a previously introduced character who has been infected with the augment plague for the purpose of stealing DASH drive technology.

On Ash/l'rell beatdown

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if the writers are super Trekkie they might have seen the TNG episodes which showed us Klingons brawl as part of their courtship - what looked to us like a drag out brawl might have been their farewell makeout session - I have no expectations that this is true but it would be awesome

[Chen]

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On Ash/l'rell beatdown: if the writers are super Trekkie they might have seen the TNG episodes which showed us Klingons brawl as part of their courtship - what looked to us like a drag out brawl might have been their farewell makeout session - I have no expectations that this is true but it would be awesome

I fixed your spoiler tag on the last comment

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It still makes zero sense if he actually is a spy. Why would you even send the captain (and your lover) down in that case? It just puts her in a situations where she could be killed by the escaping people who you WANT to escape. She only survived because of plot armor anyways (is it so hard to pull the trigger a second time when you didn't insta disintegrate her like every other person you shot at?). Now if he's NOT an actual spy, fine. But if he is, this is just a stupid thing they did just to try and trick the audience.

[Reddish Mage]

Spoiler: More Five

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*I do have a problem with the two sides of ''we are making a cool classic trek prequel show'' and ''we are making our own cool unique show''. First off, if your a ''Coolz unique showz'' person, then you really should not be making a Trek show. Go make your own ''cool show''. But once your set on making a Trek show it comes with lots of details that you just have to accept. X was X and Y was Y, and that is how it was.

A D7 battle ship has a set look. For the people to just go and make their ''randomz coolz space ship! pew pew!" and say it is a D7 battle ship is wrong.

And the thing is....it is an easy fix. Oh, look just make it a D5 battle ship...or really any other name other then ''D7''

It is like they get the easy things wrong, but then do a good job on the hard stuff. Like take the list of ''best captains ever''. So, wow, someone who knew their Trek history made that list, and it is a good list for Classic Trek Captains. But even then it does not make sense that with over 100 years of history Starfleet only had five ''great captains'', and like four of them were alive in 2255(though soon to be three..wink, wink) So no other ''great'' captains? And again, this is an easy fix as they just had to spend the ''billion dollars'' to have the video screen show like 25 names.....or maybe even scroll the names along to give the impression that there was more to the list.

And really Captain Saru does not seem so ''conflicted'' and there is no ''real conflict'' here. It is very simple: if what you are doing might even have the slightest hint of harming a lifeform...YOU DON'T DO IT. And it's only worse when people start to say ''it might be sentient''.

Maybe Ash will be a ''surgical altered Klingon ''....or maybe, just maybe..if they want to do a real call back, he'd be one of the Klingons effected by the ''argument plague'' from ENT.

Spoiler: What Discovery is as a Show - E5

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I had a feeling these were the things that bothered you most, and the way Discovery was put together as a show, all of these things make a great deal of sense. In fact, to do otherwise would be for Discovery to cease trying to be Discovery and try to be a different sort of show.

Discovery is neither trying to be a retread of original Trek or a totally unique show. Much like TNG, it is trying to recreate Star Trek with updated technology fitting of at how the future looks to us in 2017.

Now, TNG set itself 100 years in the future, so the background continuity errors (although there are plenty) weren’t so blatant, but that didn’t stop the criticism at the time. People hated the stuff that was new (Data was criticized as a silly generic sci-fi insert and poor substitute for Spock), and thought that what they kept was poorly done and changed too much to be recognizable.

Discovery decided to throw out the idea of sticking with the Trek aesthetic early on and due something new based off the JJ Abrams Movies. There was copyright reasons (the show couldn’t be made otherwise) but its also pretty absurd to do a show in 2017 with the future aesthetics and technology of the 1970s.

You can attack that decision, you could try to say a new show should be in the future to avoid continuity errors, but like it or not, Discovery was made on the foundation of doing an updated Aesthetic based on movie Star Trek. It is not going to stick with the aesthetics or the technology that they had in TOS and they are going to give everything an updated look and feel.

The D7 Klingon ship is clearly an outgrowth of this philosophy. Discovery could have made it a precursor, but why should they even try to suggest that, in 10 years time, the future is going to look like TOS?

Many of your criticisms are striking at the vein of the updated aesthetic, and technology, but by episode 5, Discovery is what it is, its not going to try to be TOS, and shouldn’t be expected to.

The list of StarFleet Captains is a real nit, its shows up on the screen for only a brief second or two, and can’t be read without pausing. The names are Easter Eggs for the fandom who think its worth pausing and reading the details, and the captains listed are who they are because those are the five captains we actually know from the period before TOS! What would be the point in showing the list if they were going to have 3 or 4 random individuals we never heard of? Not to mention, once the names are mentioned, there would be a loose plot thread of who are these mysterious previously unmentioned female-alien captain during the dark period between Enterprise and Discovery?

I agree with your initial analysis of Saru, but saying he has “no conflict” is too far. Saru has plenty of reasons for using the Tardigrad, rescuing Captain Lorca was his mission, and Michael’s initial concerns were presented as speculative, and dismissing an out-of-left field suggestion they inject Tardigrad DNA in a human experimentally is quite reasonable. Saru made the wrong decisions, and in the end accepted what his subordinates did even though they blatantly undermined him, but he had a conflict.

What you say about Ash is interesting....see below

For the fraternization point, it's clearly not a thing in the Star Trek universe. Captain Picard was dating some scientist on his ship during one episode. Presumably there are some rules about it but she was basically directly under his command and was still appropriate (apparently).

I definitely had some issues with this episode though
[spoiler]If Ash is a plant/spy, then the fight between Ash and L'rell was PURELY for the audience (no one else was around) which sits badly for me. This will be especially bad if he turns out to be Voq.

Apparently, the idea is that, in the future, romantic relationships can happen between mature adults without affecting their professional relationships. Its also a post-gender society that is past the battle of the sexes except when it isn’t. Well it was the 90s.

Regarding a certain new character

Spoiler: Ash

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What you point out resonates. There could be reasons for why Ash and T’Rell fight if Ash is a Klingon spy, however, none of them make much sense.

I personally stopped reasing Ultron's "things that dont make sense" a long time ago during the Babylon 5 thread. He has some good insights, but i feel like 90% of his nitpicking actually dont make sense or is something that is actually explained but he just refuses the explanation.

Otherwise, i like Ultron's commentaries.

Spoiler: Ash's Fight with T'Rell

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I also wonder about his fight against her, because they were nowhere Lorca. But then again, there is a number of speculations:

- Maybe he didnt wanted to take the risk of breaking character. It was a combat situation, and Lorca could have surged back at any second.

- Maybe Voq was resentful of T'Rell for the transmogrif. Maybe she didn't informed the other guards that he was a Klingon to make his beating more believable.

- Maybe his mind was altered so he becomes a more effective agent, and actually believes to be Ash. Ya know, akin to Sloan's dissociative memory trick he accuses Bashir of. Or the Cardassian memory implant the OO tries to convince Kira. (Now i know i have a DS9 feel of the series)

But even all that considered. Ash had a clear line of sight against TRell and a working Disruptor. He could have just shot her right there, but he engaged in hand to hand.

Spoiler: Who is Ash again?

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So Tyler Ash is supposedly on the Senzhou prior the battle, our original ship and where Vok had just raided. Incidentally, the actor playing Vok is apparently a completely unknown person, while Tyler Ash has appeared in promos and credits as a main character.

Tyler’s story can’t hold up, T’Rell was marooned in space six weeks ago.

On the other hand, its perfect for a Klingon (being Voq is just drama) to transform into a human (which we know has plenty of Star Trek precedent), escape with Lorca, and be onboard Discovery as a spy. T’Rell also has no real reason to be running the prison, unless capturing Lorca was part of some sort of master plan.

How that plays out is quite a bit hackneyed. T’Rell was the one who tried to stop Tyler Ash from leaving saying that he turned against her “after all we’ve been through.” Lorca wasn’t present for most of it, although it may still have been a overly elaborate ruse for his sake. Really though, it makes the most sense if Lorca wasn’t intended to escape and Vok was intentionally changing the plans... or perhaps he was altered so perfectly Vok really thinks he’s human.

Lorca’s escape was “too easy” in he met with only half a dozen or so Klingons in his way, although the Klingons fought back with deadly force and the Klingon raiders destroyed the ship, which teleported in the “nick of time.”

In the end, this is all reasonable and overall believably done next to the twist in the end of the first season of Agents of SHIELD

Spoiler: Agents of SHIELD Season 1

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In Agents of SHIELD, there was no hint that Grant Ward would turn evil at all, even the actors didn’t know, while there are all sorts of reasons to think Vok is Tyler Ash

. Although we all suspect it, there will still be a great deal of payoff when Tyler reveals who he really is.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Lots of good theories. I'm adding a minor one:

Spoiler: Long term thing

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They're going to destroy the spore network.

Or, you know, maybe the tardigrade fairies are going to take the whole thing away to another dimension or something,
but it will be permanently inaccessible. It's not just going to be banned for being unethical or some stuff.

Cue the half-decent fanfictions about the borg assimilating a sporewarp-capable creature.

[Darth Ultron]

Lots of good theories. I'm adding a minor one:

Spoiler: Long term thing

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They're going to destroy the spore network.

Or, you know, maybe the tardigrade fairies are going to take the whole thing away to another dimension or something,
but it will be permanently inaccessible. It's not just going to be banned for being unethical or some stuff.

Cue the half-decent fanfictions about the borg assimilating a sporewarp-capable creature.

Spoiler: Yup

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This makes sense as the future has no Spore Fold Drive. Maybe it will be an accident....maybe it will be the spores/tardigrade that do it...maybe it will be a more classic ''to keep it from the Klingons'' or maybe the Klingons will do it ''if we can't have it, no one can!"

[SuperPanda]

Chen - thanks for catching the mistake on my spoiler tag, doing those on my phone makes me more prone to typo's.

Re: the twist we're all expecting.

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I read that the writers of this show openly chided Westworld's writers for not being intube enough with internet theories. I am equally expecting this to me smoke and mirrors hiding he real reveal somewhere else.

One reason I think this might be the case is that apparently the fake actor name for Voq's actor translates to "long life" and "continued success" - or "live long" and "prosper"

I agree that there are legitimate "didn't think this through"'issues with the plot of the episode (L'Rell putting herself in damaged at all - regardless of if t was a real escape of a ploy) is pretty darn dumb.

I only see that making sense if a) The Klingons are shown to already have other spies in Starfleet and they know how important the spore drive is - so they are willing to sacrifice a bishop to take the queen - or b) those disruptors were making fancy lights while the Klingons were beamed elsewhere in the ship - and L'rell's injuries were "scripted" to sell the whole thing to Lorca (this one doesn't work for me of Tyler is Voq because Voq didn't have near enough time for that.

I overall really liked the episode, though I agree it wasn't perfect.

[JadedDM]

Spoiler: Tardigrades

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Real tardigrades, the microscopic ones, can survive in the hard vacuum of space. So it stands to reason a macro version could, as well.

Plus, if it couldn't, it would beg the question how it managed to get on board the Glenn in the first place without anyone noticing.

[Legato Endless]

Spoiler: What Discovery is as a Show - E5

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The list of StarFleet Captains is a real nit, its shows up on the screen for only a brief second or two, and can’t be read without pausing. The names are Easter Eggs for the fandom who think its worth pausing and reading the details, and the captains listed are who they are because those are the five captains we actually know from the period before TOS! What would be the point in showing the list if they were going to have 3 or 4 random individuals we never heard of? Not to mention, once the names are mentioned, there would be a loose plot thread of who are these mysterious previously unmentioned female-alien captain during the dark period between Enterprise and Discovery?

I agree with everything else in your post, but I don't see how an unexplained detail is automatically a loose plot thread. A lot of writing in fiction isn't necessarily that minimalist. Plus in a Universe this vast with so many gaps in time, seeing that apparently we're already acquainted with everyone of import seems a touch artificial to me.

Spoiler: Tardigrades

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Real tardigrades, the microscopic ones, can survive in the hard vacuum of space. So it stands to reason a macro version could, as well.

Plus, if it couldn't, it would beg the question how it managed to get on board the Glenn in the first place without anyone noticing.

Spoiler: Ripper

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Admittedly still a bit of a scifi tweak beyond the size and attendant strength and durability as they aren't true extremophiles but 'merely' able to survive in such conditions, whereas here it seems Ripper actually lives in space.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Spoiler: Tardigrades

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Real tardigrades, the microscopic ones, can survive in the hard vacuum of space. So it stands to reason a macro version could, as well.

Plus, if it couldn't, it would beg the question how it managed to get on board the Glenn in the first place without anyone noticing.

Spoiler: To be completely fair...

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Real tardigrades can survive the hard vacuum of space in their dehydrated state, and their survival goes down rapidly when UV light is involved. This one not only flourishes in space, seemingly instantly healing the DNA damage from powering the spore drive and spore driving itself away, but also absorbing about a hundred kilos of water from the vacuum of space to rehydrate itself.

Okay, maybe the mushrooms sporedrived the water to it, I'm giving it that. Still not quite the same.

Plus the only animals to ever survive an actual space crash are nematodes/roundworms. That has nothing to do with the episode, but I still think that's really cool.

EDIT: Wow, ninja'd by an hour. I must conclude I need to read more before posting.

[Reddish Mage]

I agree with everything else in your post, but I don't see how an unexplained detail is automatically a loose plot thread. A lot of writing in fiction isn't necessarily that minimalist. Plus in a Universe this vast with so many gaps in time, seeing that apparently we're already acquainted with everyone of import seems a touch artificial to me.

With all the problems Discovery has with the ginormous extended canon, can you blame them if they are loath to add to that Willy-Nilly by writing in the history of the gap between them and Enterprise (and to do so in margins and backgrounds of episodes)?

I don't think writing in an extended history of that period helps the show THAT much and would foreclose the possibility of a Star Trek show in that period. Even if having extensive background is important, I don't think a one second video caption is the place to fill in the expanded universe or include your token alien captain. You actually have to pause the screen to catch it, this is the traditional place for totally out of universe jokes and Easter eggs, not inscrutable references to alien captains that have never been written about (and most likely are not going to get a full treatment).

[Maelstrom]

Lots of good theories. I'm adding a minor one:

Spoiler: Long term thing

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They're going to destroy the spore network.

Or, you know, maybe the tardigrade fairies are going to take the whole thing away to another dimension or something,
but it will be permanently inaccessible. It's not just going to be banned for being unethical or some stuff.

Cue the half-decent fanfictions about the borg assimilating a sporewarp-capable creature.

Spoiler: Thoughts on Sporeverse

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I halfway expect a tie in to species 8472 in there somewhere, with all the focus on extra dimensional travel/biotech...