Tips for multiclassing?

[TheExplosiveRog]

So, the basic idea for this is how should you decide the level order for a multiclass so you aren't feeling underpowered? Is there different things to follow for different build types (damage, support, tank, etc.)?Here is an example.

Say I want to make a Bard/Rogue multiclass. How would you distribute to optimize skill expertise?

[MarkVIIIMarc]

So, the basic idea for this is how should you decide the level order for a multiclass so you aren't feeling underpowered? Is there different things to follow for different build types (damage, support, tank, etc.)?Here is an example.

Say I want to make a Bard/Rogue multiclass. How would you distribute to optimize skill expertise?

You should compare the cost of the spell progression youbare delaying vs the D8's of sneak attack in that case.

In others see if the Feat Magic Initiate would solve the problem w/o delaying spell or ability progression.

[igor140]

There's one of two ways I typically play this out: a) what is more powerful? b) what makes the most sense with the character's backstory?

For example, it seems very unlikely that you're going to have a warlock who-- after selling his soul to a demon-- will then join an order of paladins and continue alternately taking levels in paladin and warlock. I suppose it could happen, but thematically, it seems better to gain however many levels of warlock you want, before you join the paladin order to repent.

In your case, though, I think those two classes are thematically consistent enough (a sneaky, shifty bard who will pick your pocket while smiling at your face) that the order of the levels doesn't really matter in terms of character progression.

As such, start with whatever you think gives the best saving throws. Bard gives DEX/ CHA, Rogue gives DEX/ INT, sooo... whichever of those is your favorite. After that, I would say go for features you want sooner rather than later. Rogues and Bards both have REALLY good early features that boost their skills a lot. If you're going to be multiclassing, your bard spells are going to be drastically lower level than a straight bard, so you might as well shoot for Expertise and Jack of All Trades early. This will make you the ultimate skill machine. From there, prioritize either spells (Bard) or sneak attack (Rogue). I personally think the early-level Rogue features are better than the early-level Bard features, so I would prioritize it that way, but others (you included) may very well disagree with me. If I were building this character, I would go:

1. Rogue 1
2. Bard 1
3. Bard 2
4. Rogue 2
5. Rogue 3
6. Rogue 4
7. Rogue 5
The next level in EITHER Rogue or Bard will give you two more Expertise skills.

From there it will depend on your subclasses, whether you need more spells, more sneak attack, etc.

[TheExplosiveRog]

There's one of two ways I typically play this out: a) what is more powerful? b) what makes the most sense with the character's backstory?

For example, it seems very unlikely that you're going to have a warlock who-- after selling his soul to a demon-- will then join an order of paladins and continue alternately taking levels in paladin and warlock. I suppose it could happen, but thematically, it seems better to gain however many levels of warlock you want, before you join the paladin order to repent.

In your case, though, I think those two classes are thematically consistent enough (a sneaky, shifty bard who will pick your pocket while smiling at your face) that the order of the levels doesn't really matter in terms of character progression.

As such, start with whatever you think gives the best saving throws. Bard gives DEX/ CHA, Rogue gives DEX/ INT, sooo... whichever of those is your favorite. After that, I would say go for features you want sooner rather than later. Rogues and Bards both have REALLY good early features that boost their skills a lot. If you're going to be multiclassing, your bard spells are going to be drastically lower level than a straight bard, so you might as well shoot for Expertise and Jack of All Trades early. This will make you the ultimate skill machine. From there, prioritize either spells (Bard) or sneak attack (Rogue). I personally think the early-level Rogue features are better than the early-level Bard features, so I would prioritize it that way, but others (you included) may very well disagree with me. If I were building this character, I would go:

1. Rogue 1
2. Bard 1
3. Bard 2
4. Rogue 2
5. Rogue 3
6. Rogue 4
7. Rogue 5
The next level in EITHER Rogue or Bard will give you two more Expertise skills.

From there it will depend on your subclasses, whether you need more spells, more sneak attack, etc.

Thanks for the tips! Got any for other situations, or is multiclassing just a mechanic that is very complicated?

[TheExplosiveRog]

You should compare the cost of the spell progression youbare delaying vs the D8's of sneak attack in that case.

In others see if the Feat Magic Initiate would solve the problem w/o delaying spell or ability progression.

Thanks for the help!

[Dork_Forge]

Ask yourself why you're multiclassing and what levels those features are at. General things to bear in mind are: ASIs, in general you want to take either a single dip, or dips in multiples of 4 to make sure you're getting the most possible ASIs. If you're multiclassing a half caster (Paladin/Ranger) try and have an even number of that dip and if it's a third caster (Arcane trickster/Eldritch Knight) take those dips in multiples of 3. You may also want to consider what abilities you want and if you can gain access to them from feats.

As for your example I will assume that 1) You primarily want to be a Bard and 2) that you are primarily after expertise.

12 Levels of Bard will get you 4 skills with Expertise and Jack of all Trades. 8 Levels of Rogue will net you another 4 Expertises whilst giving you a good amount of survivability and damage. At the end of it you have all 5 normal ASIs and 8 expertises, with Jack of all trades covering the rest. If you wanted to nab some further Expertise then a one level dip of knowledge Cleric will get you another two and the Prodigy feat (half elves/orcs and humans) will get you another experitse and some other proficiencies.

[TheExplosiveRog]

Ask yourself why you're multiclassing and what levels those features are at. General things to bear in mind are: ASIs, in general you want to take either a single dip, or dips in multiples of 4 to make sure you're getting the most possible ASIs. If you're multiclassing a half caster (Paladin/Ranger) try and have an even number of that dip and if it's a third caster (Arcane trickster/Eldritch Knight) take those dips in multiples of 3. You may also want to consider what abilities you want and if you can gain access to them from feats.

As for your example I will assume that 1) You primarily want to be a Bard and 2) that you are primarily after expertise.

12 Levels of Bard will get you 4 skills with Expertise and Jack of all Trades. 8 Levels of Rogue will net you another 4 Expertises whilst giving you a good amount of survivability and damage. At the end of it you have all 5 normal ASIs and 8 expertises, with Jack of all trades covering the rest. If you wanted to nab some further Expertise then a one level dip of knowledge Cleric will get you another two and the Prodigy feat (half elves/orcs and humans) will get you another experitse and some other proficiencies.

This is the best response so far! Thanks! Now I can work on my true goal... a monk rogue ranger assassin... *laughs in Chaotic Evil*

[Wizard_Lizard]

fr damge, I was thinking a rogue1 Barbarian1 druid2 paladin2.

wildshape rage sneak attack smite, anyone?

[Dork_Forge]

This is the best response so far! Thanks! Now I can work on my true goal... a monk rogue ranger assassin... *laughs in Chaotic Evil*

Do... Do you want help with that... >.>

[Dork_Forge]

fr damge, I was thinking a rogue1 Barbarian1 druid2 paladin2.

wildshape rage sneak attack smite, anyone?

Unfortunately I don't think you can smite or trigger sneak attack like that :/

[Wizard_Lizard]

Unfortunately I don't think you can smite or trigger sneak attack like that :/

why not?
smite ain't a spell, and you can smite with natural weapons (teeth, claws etc.) as long as you count teeth as melee weapons. And animals are arguably better at sneaking than humans.

[TheExplosiveRog]

why not?
smite ain't a spell, and you can smite with natural weapons (teeth, claws etc.) as long as you count teeth as melee weapons. And animals are arguably better at sneaking than humans.

Sneak attack says you must use a Finesse or Ranged weapon

[Wizard_Lizard]

Sneak attack says you must use a Finesse or Ranged weapon

claws can be finesse?

EDIT: Giant spiders use DEX for attacks.

[TheExplosiveRog]

Do... Do you want help with that... >.>

If you'd like. I already know my archetype choices, I just don't know how to distribute levels.

Rogue: Assassin, minimum of 7 levels so I can get Evasion
Monk: Kensei or Shadow, minimum of 5 levels for Extra attack
Ranger: Gloom Stalker, minimum of 3 levels for the archetype effects

The idea is you are a mobile attacker. If I go Kensei damage will be the main focus, if I go Shadow mobility will be.

[TheExplosiveRog]

claws can be finesse?

Maybe, if you ask your DM. But you are able to use your Smite, since Wild Shape says you are capable of using class features in your shape. I've made a Barbarian Druid, and it's a blast to Rage in the form of a triceratops...

Edit: Also, you dont need to be using the DeX for the finesse, it just needs to have the property.

[Dork_Forge]

why not?
smite ain't a spell, and you can smite with natural weapons (teeth, claws etc.) as long as you count teeth as melee weapons. And animals are arguably better at sneaking than humans.

Apologies I was mistaken about the smiting part, I found this from Jeremy Crawford but sneak attack does need either the Finesse property or a ranged weapon (it doesn't need to use Dex, a Barbarian can Sneak Attack as long as they're using a Finesse weapon).

[Wizard_Lizard]

Apologies I was mistaken about the smiting part, I found this from Jeremy Crawford but sneak attack does need either the Finesse property or a ranged weapon (it doesn't need to use Dex, a Barbarian can Sneak Attack as long as they're using a Finesse weapon).

ok, so I am thinking gorrila using a rapier.
Or just scratch rogue altogether.

[chando]

Or shortswords, a dagger for the throw option with the same weapon (hopefully magic) as well... they might be crude, made of stone or bone, very "primal" looking to pair with a gorilla. More iconic image than the swashbuckling gorilla, although that would be pretty special as well...
Weapon damage die doesnt that matter much in this build, especially if you get a nice weapon enchantment, and daggers tend to be a earlier modules/adventures easy to come reward for magic weapons, as any class can use it.

Of course, can a gorilla swashbuckle? maybe TWF? how about use a Shield? all ask your DM questions i think...

[OverLordOcelot]

Mechanically, there's a number of things that people often miss. Make sure that what you're getting is worth what you're giving up. For a mage, being one level behind in spell (but not slot) progression to pick up armor, skills, cantrips you can't normally have, and some first level spells by taking a level of cleric is a good trade. But being two levels behind in spell and slot progression to get cunning action and a sneak attack that doesn't work with spells by taking a rogue level is probably not a good trade. Most classes are fairly front loaded, so don't just look at what you'll get right now, but what you'll get over the likely duration of the campaign. A lot of multiclass options that look good at level 5-7 and level 20 really fall behind at the higher end of tier 2 into tier 3 - missing a third attack or higher level spells can be really brutal.

Story wise, remember that classes and levels are meta game knowledge, and that it's generally bad roleplaying to engage in metagaming. The character doesn't actually decide "I will take a level of rogue now"; a Ranger with some rogue and fighter levels is just someone who has focused their training or development in areas different than the standard ranger abilities. They might not even be getting their training from different teachers than a straight ranger, they're just emphasizing or talented at different parts. You could make a fighter who uses limited magic mechanically with a straight eldritch knight, a non EK fighter with the ritual caster feat, a non-EK mixed with a caster, a mix of EK and a caster, or a mix of Arcane Trickster and EK, and all of those mechanically very different choices could fit the same background idea.

For example, it seems very unlikely that you're going to have a warlock who-- after selling his soul to a demon-- will then join an order of paladins and continue alternately taking levels in paladin and warlock. I suppose it could happen, but thematically, it seems better to gain however many levels of warlock you want, before you join the paladin order to repent.

Disagree completely. There are warlock patrons who aren't demons (notably the Archfey in PHB and celestial in Xanathar's), there are plenty of paladin oaths that have no trouble working with straight up evil (notably conquest, which is also the most historical oath), and concepts like temptation, hubris, and risking oneself to protect others are all fertile ground for roleplaying. Further, having the character be aware of the specific mechanics of leveling up is clear metagaming - a player choosing to increase warlock levels could mean that the pact magic is getting stronger even though the character is opposed to using it more.

[strake]

So, the basic idea for this is how should you decide the level order for a multiclass so you aren't feeling underpowered? Is there different things to follow for different build types (damage, support, tank, etc.)?

There are a few questions you want to answer that will help decide on a multiclass order.
1) How long are you likely to play this character - a multiclass plan for a game that may not get to level 5 is vastly different than a game that should go to level 15+
2) What do you see as your primary role and typical actions in combat.
3) What is your personal comfort zone for putting up with being a little underpowered for a level or 2 while pushing for a key class feature.

If you only expect to play the character for a few levels, then every level should give you something that helps right now. ASIs and extra attack and 3rd level spells aren't something to dive for, because the character may not even get there. If you are looking at a long-term plan instead then diving for level 3 (class archetype features), level 4 (feats), and level 5 (extra attacks/3rd level spell) becomes way more important for getting to the good stuff that will really define your character.

Which segues into the second question. What's your role, what do you want to do in combat. DPS needs to move quickly to the extra damage abilities either from a MC synergy or the spells/extra attacks/feats they plan to use. Tanks need to balance fighting style/spells/feats/armor to get the biggest benefits as quickly as possible. Support roles, want to get their key abilities quickly, and are most likely to take a level or 2 in everything to gain access to the heals/buffs/utility. If they only plan to do damage with cantrips then particular class levels don't matter as much for combat.

Regarding underpowered, and comfort zones. The single class characters vs multi-class characters can really bounce back and forth between who feels underpowered. A well chosen 1/1 MC can seem way more powerful than a level 2 SC. Which completely flips when the 3/2 MC gets compared to the level 5 SC who has both a key feat and level 5 feature. And then the 5/4 or 7/2 MC catches right back up again and possibly surpasses the level 9 SC. To a certain degree, choosing to multi-class requires you to be ok with not always comparing equally to the single class characters. You can certainly mitigate it somewhat by choosing levels and classes carefully, but there will regularly be power imbalances as you level up next to your single class party members.

Finally, something I regularly do when it is time to level up is actually build out (roughly at least) the next few levels in multiple ways and then compare the benefits. Is the Feat in 2 levels better for me than an extra die of damage per round? Are the spell slots more useful than having a good way to use a bonus action every turn? Long term, obviously the plan is for all of it, but as far as comparing the next 2 levels, sometimes writing it out makes it really obvious which benefits would get the most use.

[Vogie]

ok, so I am thinking gorrila using a rapier.

If you're a Pact of the Blade Warlock, Gorilla-you can summon a rapier. With Improved Pact weapon, you can summon a longbow or heavy crossbow.

A Barbarian 1 Paladin 2 Rogue 2 GOO Warlock 3 Moon Druid X (max 12) makes you a

Telepathic Gorilla that can see rage, summon various +1 weapons with which to sneak attack and smite your targets. Also, your wild shapes and a pair of second level spellslots can refresh on a short rest.

[TheExplosiveRog]

There are a few questions you want to answer that will help decide on a multiclass order.
1) How long are you likely to play this character - a multiclass plan for a game that may not get to level 5 is vastly different than a game that should go to level 15+
2) What do you see as your primary role and typical actions in combat.
3) What is your personal comfort zone for putting up with being a little underpowered for a level or 2 while pushing for a key class feature.

If you only expect to play the character for a few levels, then every level should give you something that helps right now. ASIs and extra attack and 3rd level spells aren't something to dive for, because the character may not even get there. If you are looking at a long-term plan instead then diving for level 3 (class archetype features), level 4 (feats), and level 5 (extra attacks/3rd level spell) becomes way more important for getting to the good stuff that will really define your character.

Which segues into the second question. What's your role, what do you want to do in combat. DPS needs to move quickly to the extra damage abilities either from a MC synergy or the spells/extra attacks/feats they plan to use. Tanks need to balance fighting style/spells/feats/armor to get the biggest benefits as quickly as possible. Support roles, want to get their key abilities quickly, and are most likely to take a level or 2 in everything to gain access to the heals/buffs/utility. If they only plan to do damage with cantrips then particular class levels don't matter as much for combat.

Regarding underpowered, and comfort zones. The single class characters vs multi-class characters can really bounce back and forth between who feels underpowered. A well chosen 1/1 MC can seem way more powerful than a level 2 SC. Which completely flips when the 3/2 MC gets compared to the level 5 SC who has both a key feat and level 5 feature. And then the 5/4 or 7/2 MC catches right back up again and possibly surpasses the level 9 SC. To a certain degree, choosing to multi-class requires you to be ok with not always comparing equally to the single class characters. You can certainly mitigate it somewhat by choosing levels and classes carefully, but there will regularly be power imbalances as you level up next to your single class party members.

Finally, something I regularly do when it is time to level up is actually build out (roughly at least) the next few levels in multiple ways and then compare the benefits. Is the Feat in 2 levels better for me than an extra die of damage per round? Are the spell slots more useful than having a good way to use a bonus action every turn? Long term, obviously the plan is for all of it, but as far as comparing the next 2 levels, sometimes writing it out makes it really obvious which benefits would get the most use.

Whoa... this is great! I assume this would also work for three class multiclassing?

[TheExplosiveRog]

If you're a Pact of the Blade Warlock, Gorilla-you can summon a rapier. With Improved Pact weapon, you can summon a longbow or heavy crossbow.

A Barbarian 1 Paladin 2 Rogue 2 GOO Warlock 3 Moon Druid X (max 12) makes you a

Telepathic Gorilla that can see rage, summon various +1 weapons with which to sneak attack and smite your targets. Also, your wild shapes and a pair of second level spellslots can refresh on a short rest.

So a super deadly version of Gorilla Grod.

[strake]

Whoa... this is great! I assume this would also work for three class multiclassing?

Yes. Three or more classes just gives you more wheels to turn and tweak and balance. The questions to answer and think about are the same.

[TheExplosiveRog]

Yes. Three or more classes just gives you more wheels to turn and tweak and balance. The questions to answer and think about are the same.

Thank you! Good to know, and I'm sure I'm not the only person who wanted to know this.

[zinycor]

A few advices from my experience

1) single class characters are generally stronger than multiclass characters, but a good multiclass character will be able to do very crazy things.
2) most classes are very front loaded, therefore most multiclassing consists mainly of dips, that's to say, only a few levels of a secondary class.
3) For the most part, I wouldn't recommend multiclassing before getting to level 5, which for most classes is a big spike of power.
4) Remember that you still have a team, you don't need to be able to do everything, and if you want access to spells, more often than not, is better to just leave that to the spellcasters.
5) Be focused. Multiclassing is best when we are talking of specialists. Know what you want to achieve and go from there.