Wandas' Suggestion Spell [possible spoilers]

[SteveMB]

Um... sorry Pclips has stated that prisoners heal and all on the captors turn.

I vaguely recall something like that... (search) Ah, there it is:

Ah, that one's not a blooper. Jillian is captured at that point and shares "turns" with her captors' side. Eats prison meals that pop on Gobwin Knob's expense, etc.

(It couldn't be a mistaken interpretation on Jillian's part, either -- if anybody knows about the results of getting captured, it's her.)

[Krelon]

Seriously? Your saying that the theory supported by defining unknowns crossed referenced by speculation in regard to unrevealed character history is equally unsupported as a determination derived from subtext that you call a "single" "ambiguous" panel that's not actually very single nor very ambiguous?

Wanda just likes getting dressed up. She's in no way carrying a cat of nine tails (now, when she has plenty of them inside the torture chamber) because of it completing a definitive resemblence to the type of people who like to use them. And Mung says he has an erection for completely unrelated reasons.

Did you mean that ambiguous panel or another one?

kinda strange off topic question, I have here... I reread page 28. I have to admit I do not remember that there were any black-and-white strips when I read Erfworld the first time. Are some of the panels being re-worked? I noticed some very nice details in the backgrounds I'm not sure I saw them the first time (pages before page 28).

[SteveMB]

kinda strange off topic question, I have here... I reread page 28. I have to admit I do not remember that there were any black-and-white strips when I read Erfworld the first time.

The opening panels of page 28 are done in the style of Partially Clips (Rob's other webcomic) -- i.e. frames with the same black-and-white image, differing only in the dialog boxes.

AFAIK, none of the pages have been modified since they were posted. According to the first post in the sticky "bloopers" thread, the plan is to do error fixes all at once after the chapter is done, as part of preparations for the book.

[SteveMB]

Exactly. I'm with those that think the 'start of turn' has something to do with it. I suspect that the spell Wanda used wore off (or, at least, the obvious parts of it did) at the beginning of the next turn. Probably, it kept her from having to think about what she did, so when it stopped providing the explanations, Jillian was stuck with a bunch of guilt and had to start rationalizing on her own.

The fact that she cuddled up to Wanda on the ride back suggests that she was successful in her rationalizations.

Thinking about this a bit more, it may be that Wanda's confidence may be bolstered by the fact that Jillian was (by this interpretation) able to come up with rationalizations to justify giving away everything she knew about Ansom's plans. Wanda might assume that this was a particularly difficult thing for Jillian to deal with, and that if she was able to "supply her own reasons" for such a major betrayal, the spell's grip on her must be firm enough to hold through pretty much any circumstances.

However, spilling the beans is, really, a fairly easy thing to rationalize (once she recovered a bit from the initial shock). All she has to do is decide that the information will do Stanley as much good as (to coin a phrase) detailed measurements of the exact mass and speed of the rhino charging you. Coming up with a rationalization for failing to energetically seek out and immediately engage a large force of vulnerable enemy units might be a lot harder, especially for someone who generally prefers to wade into combat....

[ChowGuy]

All she has to do is decide that the information will do Stanley as much good as (to coin a phrase) detailed measurements of the exact mass and speed of the rhino charging you. Coming up with a rationalization for failing to energetically seek out and immediately engage a large force of vulnerable enemy units might be a lot harder, especially for someone who generally prefers to wade into combat....

You're assuming of course that the suggestion was "betray Ansom" although Wanda herself noted that it did not extend to commands "particularly not a direct command to betray Ansom."

Now that we seen a bit more. I reiterate that the spell was not directed at her feelings toward Wanda, but toward Ansom himself. She would even disobey him, if she felt it was necessary to save him.

[SteveMB]

You're assuming of course that the suggestion was "betray Ansom" although Wanda herself noted that it did not extend to commands "particularly not a direct command to betray Ansom."

My point is that, having observed that Jillian was able to rationalize away what would appear to be an obvious and blatant betrayal (giving up information without holding anything back), Wanda might have more confidence in her suggestion spell than is actually warranted.

The latest evidence points toward the suggestion being "protect Ansom personally (even at the expense of the Coalition generally)". I don't see how that conflicts with my reasoning about why Wanda might be in for an unpleasant surprise.

EDIT: Jillian has behaved in two interesting ways (a friendly chat with Wanda after being tortured and interrogated by her, irrational insistence on charging to Ansom's rescue even if it means ditching her assinged mission). Arguably, given the amount of insubordination we've seen from her in the past (e.g. hitting a target of opportunity after being told to avoid engagements if possible), the former is the more unusual of the two. Then again, she did propose that she and Wanda should "both of us get out of here" before being subjected to either mundane or magical "persuasion".

I'm not sure what to make of all this, but without the slightest suspicion that it's because the story is just incoherent. That's a neat authorial trick to pull off.

Now that we seen a bit more. I reiterate that the spell was not directed at her feelings toward Wanda, but toward Ansom himself. She would even disobey him, if she felt it was necessary to save him.

The question is just how far Jillian can rationalize away conflicts between what Wanda's suggestions impel her to do and what the current realities (observed facts, orders, etc) say she ought to do.

[SteveMB]

Now that we seen a bit more. I reiterate that the spell was not directed at her feelings toward Wanda, but toward Ansom himself. She would even disobey him, if she felt it was necessary to save him.

Looking at what we've seen so far, my current working hypothesis is that there are two separate manipulations going on:

1. Jillian's feelings toward Wanda have been manipulated by mundane psychological means (torture, good cop/bad cop head games, etc). This is a means to two ends: obtaining intel and setting up the next item:

2. Jillian's feelings toward Ansom have been manipulated by Wanda's suggestion spell in order to make her put his personal safety above any other mission. The intent is to leave a hole in Ansom's air defenses when he relies upon her and she is distracted by some actual or perceived threat to Ansom personally.

This fits with the fact that Wanda casts the suggestion spell after Jillian confirms her emotional bonding ("Let's both of us get out of here...") and submissiveness ("Yes, Mistress.").

[TheWombat]

E) At dawn Jillian realizes, something, with a shock and breaks down in tears. A lot of speculation here has it that the "realization" is in how much she has revealed during the night, but she's already been shown as conceding that. On page 36 she says, head bowed (in defeat?), "I have withheld nothing." Why then the sudden shock? And more importantly, why the tears? That's an emotional reaction that seems out of character for a Mercenary and a Barbarian Princess, particularly one who has not yet demonstrated much personal attachment to the coalition or anyone as such.

Personally, I think this is more a reference to her being a traitor. Being with Wanda and working with her probably makes her somewhat of a partial unit of Stanley's. The realization takes place during the end of Ansom's turn and the beginning of Stanley's. During the turn of Ansom, she gets hurt and tortured. At dawn, Stanley's troops regain their hitpoints and their rations pop. So it would be reasonable to assume that the wounds she suffered healed, but her mental anguish would still remain.

My proof to back this up?

Page 38 panel 2, we see a beaten and battered Jillian.
In panel 3, she regains her normal look, like she got her wounds healed as an agent of Stanley's would at dawn.
In panel 5, the food has 'popped' onto the table signifying the start of Stanley's turn, and Wanda says the following.

"I know. In some ways your wounds have healed. In other ways you're only just feeling them now." (I think the feeling them now part is the guilt of being a traitor)

In panel 6, Wanda says "Don't wallow in guilt, my dearest." (Which again I think refers to the pain as guilt)

Those are just my thoughts though. I had to join so I could post this. So first post, I guess.