This is just a what if. There is no sudclasses

[Sir cryosin]

So as title say. What if you get ride off sudclasses and muilticlassing. But you can pick any class ability for the level you get it. For example a fighter with a few maneuvers and the champion better crit.

How would this effect the system. I'm not seeing any thing that isn't as op as muilticlassing. But I'm not a all seeing god.

[Honest Tiefling]

I think this would work fine for some classes, but clunky for others. What's preventing me from getting spell casting from the Eldritch Knight and then piling on champion crits?

To me, it seems like a degree of complication and confusion that would require a substantial amount of work for little gain. Some sub-classes are similar, and that's fine in my book so people can pick the one they enjoy.

[Sir cryosin]

I think this would work fine for some classes, but clunky for others. What's preventing me from getting spell casting from the Eldritch Knight and then piling on champion crits?

To me, it seems like a degree of complication and confusion that would require a substantial amount of work for little gain. Some sub-classes are similar, and that's fine in my book so people can pick the one they enjoy.

I don't find it complicated it seem straight forward. You look at the class chart is say if you get something at that level. Then you looks at the subclasses and pick something. So as for your example you look at the elementary spell slot chart it say you would gain 21st lv spells and one 2nd lv and one cantrip. You then get 2 first level slots and one second level and a cantrip.



What are some classes that would be a problem to you?

[Contrast]

Multiclassing has a cost to it be it delaying attacks, spell progression or feats. What you're proposing is pure buff with no downside as you always get to choose whichever you think is best.

Is there something you're trying to address by doing this?

[Honest Tiefling]

I don't find it complicated it seem straight forward. You look at the class chart is say if you get something at that level. Then you looks at the subclasses and pick something. So as for your example you look at the elementary spell slot chart it say you would gain 21st lv spells and one 2nd lv and one cantrip. You then get 2 first level slots and one second level and a cantrip.

Problem is, that is a rule added in. Eldritch Knights LITERALLY get the Spellcasting class ability at level 3, and their spells increase on levels where they don't get class abilities, so...Would it just not advance on those levels? Also, spellcasting is not the only ability that scales, like the monk Martial Arts or Druid Wildshape. Would that mean it doesn't scale automatically and has to be selected?

[TraitorMacbeth]

It sure seems fun and all, and if you'd like to run a game that way that's totally up to you. It would however be difficult to balance, especially if you're mixing up classes and not just subclasses.

The worst would be spellcasting classes; you would have to keep track of how high your Cleric spell slots go compared to Wizard, because the game specifically spells out how those are to be given out. A Champion who dipped into EK would have to specifically remember how many of his levels went into EK, and what spell options that allows you. You would also have to work around cheesing higher level spell slots - at level 5 you get level 3 spells, right? Does that mean you can be a level 4 rogue, then next level pick up level 5 druid spells?

Classes are also laid out on purpose to have some AMAZING levels, and some not as interesting levels, because you take the bad with the good. If you were able to just take the best parts of any class, you would be dramatically overpowered. Level 14 druids can either be unlikely to be attacked by beasts and plants (not terribly useful at 14) or cast Alter Self at will (a better choice). The 6 and 10 Totem Barbarian choices are weaker, so you'd grab the Berserker bits of course.

Now that I look at it, if you keep it to subclasses only, it's only a little bit unbalanced. Still only recommended for a quicker for-goofs adventure.

Also, what if I WANT level 1 from 2 different classes?

[Hrugner]

It sounds like it would be fun to build characters with, but a fair few people will end up with really lame characters compared to those with system mastery. You'd be removing the only real benefit to this version of D&D. There are a few levels that go to one or two classes with no contest, and others that require a previous selection to operate at all. You'd be better off taking the abilities and assigning points value to each of them and giving people so many points per level. Better yet, just build a new system from the ground up.

[MrStabby]

It would certainly up the power level - thief isn't a popular subclass, for example, but the high level taking extra turns ability is awesome. Being able to mix and match is a really big boost there.

Or for wizards - divination level 2, conjuration level 6, illusion level 14... Far too much in my opinion.

As others have raised - what is the benefit in terms of fun gameplay? There is certainly a cost in terms of balance - is it worth it for the gain you expect?

[Sir cryosin]

It sure seems fun and all, and if you'd like to run a game that way that's totally up to you. It would however be difficult to balance, especially if you're mixing up classes and not just subclasses.

The worst would be spellcasting classes; you would have to keep track of how high your Cleric spell slots go compared to Wizard, because the game specifically spells out how those are to be given out. A Champion who dipped into EK would have to specifically remember how many of his levels went into EK, and what spell options that allows you. You would also have to work around cheesing higher level spell slots - at level 5 you get level 3 spells, right? Does that mean you can be a level 4 rogue, then next level pick up level 5 druid spells?

Classes are also laid out on purpose to have some AMAZING levels, and some not as interesting levels, because you take the bad with the good. If you were able to just take the best parts of any class, you would be dramatically overpowered. Level 14 druids can either be unlikely to be attacked by beasts and plants (not terribly useful at 14) or cast Alter Self at will (a better choice). The 6 and 10 Totem Barbarian choices are weaker, so you'd grab the Berserker bits of course.

Now that I look at it, if you keep it to subclasses only, it's only a little bit unbalanced. Still only recommended for a quicker for-goofs adventure.

Also, what if I WANT level 1 from 2 different classes?

I said get ride of sudclasses and multiclassing.

[Sigreid]

If I were going to do something like this I think I'd rather get rid of multi-classing and have you get all of the subclass abilities for your class. I think of the released classes only the Cleric would start getting crazy with all of the innate spells and such.

Could be fun for a campaign where you want the party to be powerful demigods, but not crazy over the top.

[Theodoxus]

I'm a little confused. Take Fighter. At 3rd, you get the option to gain Improved Critical, Combat Superiority or Spellcasting. At 7th, you get another martial archetype feature. Are you saying you can pick any of the 2 you didn't get at 3rd? Or just now you can pick from Remarkable Athlete, Know Your Enemy or War Magic? Because if you pick Remarkable Athlete at 3rd, and War Magic at 7th - you don't have any spells outside of grabbing Magic Initiate at some point...

So, yeah, is this more like the Barbarian Totem, where you mix and match totems, but each level is clearly defined, or are you opening up everything, just can't take something of a higher level...

The first is weird. The second is ok, I guess - provided you don't do anything dumb (Like Imp. Crit/War Magic).

[Sir cryosin]

I'm not looking to implement this in to my game. My thinking is I like to make choices about my character abilitys. My thinking was at a level we're you get a sudclass feature you can pick one from any of the sudclasses of that class. That is of the level you can get it. So a fighter at level 7 can pick from any subclass abilitys you would get at level 7.

[Potato_Priest]

Could a wizard take sculpt spell and minor conjuration, skipping the ____ savant feature entirely? Because if so, that's pretty great for them.

[Baptor]

Not really on board with "pick whatever subclass feature you like" but one idea I am kicking around is offering a "no subclass" option where in place of subclass features you get ASI (or Feat). It's more like making a 3.5 character, where most of your tricks came from feats.

[The Cats]

This is what you're looking for

http://www.dmsguild.com/product/1713...5e-by-DiBastet

[Mellack]

I am still not understanding how this would work. You talk about a fighter with the champion's better crit and also the battlemaster's maneuvers. So do they get all the powers of each subclass since those are both 3rd level choices? Does your fighter also get the spells of the Eldrich Knight? If not, how do you determine the choices? Not every subclass gives only one new power at a level. This needs a lot more description to make any judgement.

[The Cats]

I am still not understanding how this would work. You talk about a fighter with the champion's better crit and also the battlemaster's maneuvers. So do they get all the powers of each subclass since those are both 3rd level choices? Does your fighter also get the spells of the Eldrich Knight? If not, how do you determine the choices? Not every subclass gives only one new power at a level. This needs a lot more description to make any judgement.

I agree, it's hard to figure out how exactly this system that's being suggested should work based on how it's being described.

The "5E Classless" document I linked to above classifies each class feature as a Quirk, Class Feature, Greater Class Feature or Final Class Feature and provides a table which shows at what levels you can choose each. You can take multiple archetypes' 3rd level abilities, you just have to take the second one at a later level. Spellcasting is a feature and you get more spell slots by taking the feature multiple times.

It doesn't look especially balanced (I don't think it' supposed to be) but it is at least easy to understand and implement if you're looking for this style of play.

[Asmotherion]

This would be worst on Archetypes whose abilities are gained in chains. For example, the Ranger may never get an animal companion but have features that are specifically for animal companions (which they would lack). It's not that it's terribly OP (though it sure allows for some interesting combinations, such as a Swashbuckler Arcane Trickster or a Hexblade Warlock with Shillelagh and Vicious Weapon Invocation for massive hits with his Pact Weapon using only Cha), rather that it allows for some weird combinations that would be pitfalls.

[Tetrasodium]

It would be horribly broken & make the worst of 3.5's PrC bingo look like a minor thing.

[Baptor]

It would be horribly broken & make the worst of 3.5's PrC bingo look like a minor thing.

I can still vividly remember the early days of 3.0 and 3.5. I remember PrC's being something of a Frankenstein's Monster. At first we were like, "This is an awesome idea, let's get lots of these!" and soon it was, "By the gods what HATH WE WROUGHT?!"

I think subclasses are a FAR better implementation of the idea PRCs were meant to fill.

[Theodoxus]

PrC's should have been, you know, Prestigious. As in limited to 1 per character. MC all you want with base classes, but if you go Prestigious, it should have locked out all other options. But far too often they were overloaded at the 1st or 2nd level so mixing levels to obtain obscene power was very easy to do.

I know WotC dabbled for a bit with them for 5e - I just hope they don't actually make anything official.

[Klorox]

Sounds fun, but then you have to start calculating THAC0.

[Baptor]

PrC's should have been, you know, Prestigious. As in limited to 1 per character. MC all you want with base classes, but if you go Prestigious, it should have locked out all other options. But far too often they were overloaded at the 1st or 2nd level so mixing levels to obtain obscene power was very easy to do.

I know WotC dabbled for a bit with them for 5e - I just hope they don't actually make anything official.

That's exactly what I houseruled towards the end of 3.5e. One PrC per character. I was working on turning the more popular features into feats so PRCs were unnecessary but then 4e came out, we tried it, and we stopped playing. We didn't get interested again until 5e.

[Dr. Cliché]

I think this is an interesting idea, albeit a little flawed (though not fatally).

So, let's say I was playing a Fighter. When I get to Lv3, instead of choosing a subclass, I'd instead choose one of the following abilities:
- Improved Critical
- Combat Superiority
- Spellcasting & Weapon Bond

Then, when I reach Lv7, I can choose between one of the following 3 abilities:
- Remarkable Athlete
- Know your Enemy
- War Magic

And so on.

(I haven't included the options from UA and supplements, but hopefully you get the idea.)

See, I actually think that this could be a pretty good way to build characters that, for whatever reason, don't really fit into one of the established subclasses. Or just messing around and creating your own subclasses.

Anyway, I see four main issues with this:

1) Many subclasses do not have equally useful abilities at all levels. There is no getting around this, though I don't know whether it would create any serious issues.

2) Some abilities are taken at a specific level but then continue to scale afterwards. The obvious example here is spells - an Eldritch Knight gains spellcasting at level 3, but then his spellcasting ability continues to advance all the way up to Lv20 with no further investment in abilities.

The only solution I can think of here would be to say that if a character takes a Spellcasting ability (e.g. from Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster) and then subsequently takes an ability from a different, then they lose any further spell progression.

3) Some abilities are reliant on previous abilities. For example, the Sorcerer's Elemental Affinity ability is based on them having chosen a dragon type with their Lv1 ability (which wouldn't be possible if they had instead selected Wild Magic abilities at Lv1).

This, I think, could be solved by simply closing off any abilities that are reliant on previous abilities. So a Sorcerer who took Wild Magic at Lv1 wouldn't be able to select Elemental Affinity at Lv6. However, they would be able to select the Lv14 and 18 abilities as they aren't technically reliant on the sorcerer having made a specific choice with an earlier ability.

4) The fluff might not work. In the example above, the Wild Sorcerer would be able to take the ability that allows them to manifest Dragon Wings, even though their powers don't come from Dragon ancestry.

Personally, I think this could be refluffed pretty easily. A Wild sorcerer probably manifests all sorts of weird stuff. A Shadow Sorcerer could use wings seemingly made of darkness, that sort of thing.

So, in summary, I really like the idea but I think it would need some fine-tuning to make it practical.

[Lombra]

I actually think that it can work.
The main "flaw" of it is that you must use common sense to use it.

[krunchyfrogg]

sounds fun, but then you have to start calculating thac0.

lol



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