Cleric/Paladin Team Optimization...

[Nefariis]

My friend and I are going to start a new game at local gaming shop and I was wondering what you guys thought - and if there is room for improvement.

Me: Human Variant, Devotion Paladin 6, Halberd, PoleArm Master/Great Weapon Master
Him: Human Variant, War Cleric 6, Shield/Hammer, War Caster

Our plan is to just be really sticky with healing and sustain abilities....

With Aura of protection, bless, and war caster we both will have +d4+6 with advantage (him) on concentration throws. So we were thinking of a couple different strategies.

Plan #1: I keep bless up and he keeps bane up (He will take +2 ASI for 18 wis)

Plan #2: He takes Sentinel instead of ASI, I can cast shield of faith on him for 20ac and he can keep bless up and soak up all the hits with sentinel.

Plan #3: He also takes Great Weapon Master, he forgoes the shield, and we just try an wreck people with GWM damage/bless

Im sure there are more plans, but this was just off the top of our heads. Is there anything you would change or does Sentinel/GWF sound like a waste compared to the +2 wis?

What tactics would you employ?

Thanks guys

[Mandragola]

A front rank cleric is likely to be most useful using spirit guardians. You casting bless to help him concentrate is a good plan, but expect him to be concentrating already.

[Corran]

Concentration
I dont know much about clerics, but from the little I know, I think it is a shame for the cleric not to concentrate on spirit guardians (especially since you can be the one to provide bless). So, here is what I would plan for:

1) If against multiple equally strong enemies, then:
The cleric concentrates on spirit guardians, and you concentrate on bless.

2) If against one strong enemy (wether he has a few ''minions'' or not), then:
The cleric concentrates on bless, and you concentrate on wrathful smite.



Spells (non-concentration)
Some other non-concentration spells you (the paladin) should keep in mind, are the following:

a) Command: Enemies inside the cleric's deathzone of spirit guardians so they start enjoying the auto-damage, or even command them to get next to you or the clric if possible -next to whomever of you two that takes the sentinel feat.

b) Sanctuary: Spirit guardians has the tendency to draw a lot of fire on the cleric, so this can prove to be useful for you to have, every now and then; granted, the cleric gets it too, but you could be the one to use it if the cleric has spiritual weapon on, or when enemies will play before the cleric will and it is your turn.

c) Aid: ... is a very good 2nd level spell, and with at least two melee dedicated members (you and the cleric), I would say that it will be a better use of resources than burning a 2nd level slot to smite, under the average case scenario (smite is better when fighting a big bad and most likely when scoring a crit). My point is, do not underestimate this spell, it is very often underrated. Use it before entering combat obviously.



Feats
Ok, before I start talking about feats, I'd like to talk about GWM.

Spoiler: Why I dont like it

Show

I am not a fan of GWM on devotion paladins. To put it in as few words as possible (since this isn't the focus of this thread, although it's relevant), what you get that supports GWM (bless/ sacred weapon, extra attack) is not enough to justify the opportunity cost that occurs, definitely action economy wise, and possibly also due to being ''forced'' to narrow your options (as GWM works best on a build that spams attacks, and you, as a paladin, have plenty of options to use your action for).
Moreover, you wont make the best out of your aura of protection this way, which will helo not only with your and the cleric's saves (and also the saves of any other ally within 10 feet of you), but also with concentration (which is very important since both you and the cleric are frontliners and rely heavily on it).

Sacred weapon is the main reason as to why most people think GWM is good on devotion paladins, but imo the best approach to this, is to consider sacred weapon as the reason why a devotion paly should (/ could?) prioritize charisma over str and stick with the few feats (PAM and sentinel from a character optimizaton standpoint, without taking into account group composition) you can invest while keeping both your main stats high, in this MAD and feat-starved class.

Ok, I made my case (though somewhat hastily) about why you would better NOT grab GWM, but I'll make sure to provide an opinion just in case you decide to roll with it (either because you still think it is optimal, or because you just want to do it and scr*w optimization).

If you absolutely want to include GWM as one of your current feat selections, then I would advise the following:
1) Pick PAM as your second feat, and use your next ASI's to max STR.
2) Maybe have the cleric pick shield master and/or have him use bless when you are not, or instead of you.
3) When using sacred weapon, focus concentration on bonus action spells.
4) When sacred weapon is off, either use bless with your concentration or dont cast at all and just spam attacks.
5)
Cant do it, as I keep thinking of reasons as to why you shouldnt take this feat, especially when bringing your buddy cleric into the equation....
I tried....

So.... feats
With the cleric focusing on spirit guardians, at least as far as most fights are concerned, you should make sure that one of you (but not both!) takes the sentinel feat. Now, the cleric initially seems like a better candidate for it, since he will probably have a better AC than you (unless you go quarterstaff + shield), and since he can add more dice to an OA (and start doing that sooner). Then again, the cleric might come under fire more than you with spirit guardians on (or so I hear, haven't seen spirit guardians in actual play yet -as almost impossible as that may seem), so in that case it might be best you pick it up instead of him. Not sure who should do it, but one of you definitely should.

The cleric would probably need a feat to boost concentration. But I am not sure... With your aura of protection, and assuming that bless is always up (when the cleric is no concentrating on bless, you are), he might skip on such a feat. If he decides to take up one such feat, I would strongly advise in favor of resilient con than warcaster, as clerics can get away casting most spells while carrying a shield with their holy symbol emblazoned on it. Plus resilient offers con save proficiency and will help him land a better con score, which will be important for him since he will share the front line with you. Casting a spell in place of an opportunity attack isn't very good, especially since the war cleric adds damage to weapon attacks and since he doesnt get BB.

Ok, it just keeps adding up, so I'll just try to sum up my thoughts regarding feats:

Good feats for you: PAM, +2 cha, sentinel, +2 str
Good feats for the cleric: +2 wis, resilient con, sentinel, magic initiate (BB)
ps: Make sure one of you takes sentinel. (in bold part what I think would be best)

[Nefariis]

Is +2 cha for me (paladin) really that important? I dont think I will be doing that many offensive spells. I think my primary role will be keeping bless up which is Cha independent.

I completely forgot about spirit guardians - what an awesome spell.

Truthfully I dont really see +2 wis for him being that important either - it seems like he would be better served taking Resilience(con) as spirit guardians is going to do way more damage than his hammer.

I hear what you are saying about GWM, but it still seems fairly useful to me. I have two attacks at level 6 and that's a possibility of an extra 40 damage per round (PAM bonus, AOO, 2x Attacks) - and with Bless/Sacred weapon (d4+8), I should be hitting at a decent rate. Then I could take Sentinel at level 8 possibly?

Otherwise, yeah I guess I would go shield/quarterstaff, forget GWF, and take sentinel/(resilience(con) or warcaster). Then we would have two 18ac tanks upfront with great concentration saves.

That just seems like a lot of damage to forgo. Any more thoughts?

[Specter]

1st turn: Pally's on Bless, Cleric's on Spirit Guardians.
2nd turn: SMASH 'EM
3rd turn: Pally Lays on Hands if necessary, Cleric uses Healing Word if necessary. Otherwise, SMASH 'EM

[Citan]

My friend and I are going to start a new game at local gaming shop and I was wondering what you guys thought - and if there is room for improvement.

Me: Human Variant, Devotion Paladin 6, Halberd, PoleArm Master/Great Weapon Master
Him: Human Variant, War Cleric 6, Shield/Hammer, War Caster

Our plan is to just be really sticky with healing and sustain abilities....

With Aura of protection, bless, and war caster we both will have +d4+6 with advantage (him) on concentration throws. So we were thinking of a couple different strategies.

Plan #1: I keep bless up and he keeps bane up (He will take +2 ASI for 18 wis)

Plan #2: He takes Sentinel instead of ASI, I can cast shield of faith on him for 20ac and he can keep bless up and soak up all the hits with sentinel.

Plan #3: He also takes Great Weapon Master, he forgoes the shield, and we just try an wreck people with GWM damage/bless

Im sure there are more plans, but this was just off the top of our heads. Is there anything you would change or does Sentinel/GWF sound like a waste compared to the +2 wis?

What tactics would you employ?

Thanks guys

Some tactics
Front meat shield: Cleric casts Warding Bond and Shield of Faith on you, you draw as many attacks as possible using Command/Compelled Duel if needed. Take Sentinel feat to help.

Reverse meat shield. You cast Shield of Faith on Cleric, he casts Spirit Guardians, you cast Sanctuary on him. He just walks around to control some space and Help/Healing Words friends while you are taking your share elsewere.

Combo attack: War Cleric takes Shield Master, uses bonus action to Shove a creature, his action to Grapple him (effectively immobilizing him for good), you unleash hell on the poor creature (with bonus action Smite spell if deemed useful).

More generally, Command paired with Spirit Guardians make a great combo. If you went for Ancients Paladin (or Cleric went for Nature), it would become crazy efficient with Plant Growth (it's not "difficult terrain" but a special effect so its stacks with Spirit Guardians's difficult terrain).