The Elder Scrolls XIII: Born Under a Certain Sign

[Temotei]

I think apprentice level is sufficient, but she shouldn't teach it to you. Half the challenge should be learning the spell needed.

As for the Thieves Guild, there is a couple more steps to it. Surviving the Ratway is a part of the challenge. As is then getting the payments. It's the Tri-force test. Courage to try, so the challenge isn't actually snagging/planting, but whether you have the courage to make the attempt. Strength, are you strong enough to survive the Ratway to reach the guild. Cunning, are you cunning enough to make them pay?

Except you can fail at literally every step except the Ratway (and even then you can just run through if you want to) and still join the guild. See Wroag joining the Thieves' Guild. In theory, I actually like the entry into the Thieves' Guild, but the execution of the entry really sucks.

[Triaxx]

I disagree there. Run, sneak, fight, it's your option. Realistically, the only fail condition is you giving up. If you're persistent you can even backdoor your way in through Mercer's house.

[Temotei]

I disagree there. Run, sneak, fight, it's your option. Realistically, the only fail condition is you giving up. If you're persistent you can even backdoor your way in through Mercer's house.

That's the point. I think there should be a failure state, even if only temporary. You can go to jail for failing the entry job, kill every person you're supposed to extort money from, burn every beehive and kill everyone on your first real job, and Brynjolf gives you a stern gaze for about five seconds before going, eh, we're good.

[factotum]

If Winterhold College required an Adept-level spell for entry, not just any mook could have entered. For the college, I think that's enough, but a Mage's Guild like in Oblivion or Morrowind should require a bit more.

That doesn't really make sense in-world, though. You're supposed to be going to the College to learn magic, so forcing you to already be adept at it before you go there makes little sense--it would be like requiring you to have a degree as a pre-requisite for entering university. Just showing that you have *some* magical aptitude should be all that's required for entry, and that's all the game requires you to do, so it makes perfect sense.

[Triaxx]

True enough but if you pay attention, Brynjolf is more or less expecting failure. Yes, you continually screwing things up is annoying, but it's an expected annoyance. The beehives are something of an optional objective. The fact that Maven is going to be angry is mostly what has him mad. But you'll have completed the primary objective, so he's willing to overlook incompetence in other areas.

[Temotei]

That doesn't really make sense in-world, though. You're supposed to be going to the College to learn magic, so forcing you to already be adept at it before you go there makes little sense--it would be like requiring you to have a degree as a pre-requisite for entering university. Just showing that you have *some* magical aptitude should be all that's required for entry, and that's all the game requires you to do, so it makes perfect sense.

I suppose that makes sense. Maybe Apprentice is fine. Still, I don't think you should be able to buy the spell straight from Faralda for 30 gold.

True enough but if you pay attention, Brynjolf is more or less expecting failure. Yes, you continually screwing things up is annoying, but it's an expected annoyance. The beehives are something of an optional objective. The fact that Maven is going to be angry is mostly what has him mad. But you'll have completed the primary objective, so he's willing to overlook incompetence in other areas.

I don't think he should be expecting failure or annoyance. If you're showing incompetence, you shouldn't be allowed to join, much less perform a job one of their best thieves couldn't do. We clearly disagree on what should happen, and that's fine. This is just my opinion.

[Spore]

I still feel this makes sense for the College of Winterhold. The school is tiny and only has two teachers. If you don't show affinity or interest in magic you are as much of a security risk as you are a boon to them. And with a WAR going on I don't think many talented mages are left. Maybe Ulfric doesn't like Mages in his armies but they really should be required to serve in the military.

[Yuki Akuma]

I still feel this makes sense for the College of Winterhold. The school is tiny and only has two teachers. If you don't show affinity or interest in magic you are as much of a security risk as you are a boon to them. And with a WAR going on I don't think many talented mages are left. Maybe Ulfric doesn't like Mages in his armies but they really should be required to serve in the military.

The school has six teachers. Seven if you're counting Mirabelle. Maybe eight - I wouldn't be surprised if Urag sometimes gave lectures. It's weirder that the college only seems to have about four students.

[Winter_Wolf]

I don't think he should be expecting failure or annoyance. If you're showing incompetence, you shouldn't be allowed to join, much less perform a job one of their best thieves couldn't do. We clearly disagree on what should happen, and that's fine. This is just my opinion.

I agree in principle, but in practice the Thieves' Guild has fallen on some pretty hard times and they aren't exactly in a position to pick and choose the best of the best. Mercer doesn't exactly have the welfare of the Guild at heart and probably thinks it's a grand bit of fun to watch Brynjolf crash and burn then make his life miserable or miserably short. Brynjolf for his part is trying to bail out his sinking boat with a bucket that's got a hole in it.

[Spore]

The school has six teachers. Seven if you're counting Mirabelle. Maybe eight - I wouldn't be surprised if Urag sometimes gave lectures. It's weirder that the college only seems to have about four students.

I feel some of the school teachers are the equivalent of grad students. I mean Drevis can't even perform an Invisibility spell right. Faralda seems capable, as does Tolfdir. But they do not actively hold lessons tbh. They do what I would call tutoring.

[DigoDragon]

For entry into guilds? A demonstration of skill via a short quest for entry is still fine, but make them tougher. Make the quest for each guild really require skills associated with that guild--the beginning of the Thieves' Guild quest in Skyrim was alright with stealing a ring and reverse pickpocketing it onto Brand-Shei, but you shouldn't be able to fail and still join the Thieves' Guild immediately.

Perhaps in addition, if you fail the entry quest, your back up is a quest that is longer which will train you in the skills relevant to the guild you're trying to gain entrance to.

The school has six teachers. Seven if you're counting Mirabelle. Maybe eight - I wouldn't be surprised if Urag sometimes gave lectures. It's weirder that the college only seems to have about four students.

Considering that you have students like J'zargo that attempted to explode you with experimental scrolls, I think the student attrition rate is pretty high.

[factotum]

I suppose that makes sense. Maybe Apprentice is fine. Still, I don't think you should be able to buy the spell straight from Faralda for 30 gold.

I think the main problem here is that the player character in Skyrim really can do anything, but I don't think that's how things are supposed to go in the general run of the population. Being able to cast even a simple spell is something that's beyond 99% of the people in the game, for instance. This has always been the case in the Elder Scrolls series--the player character is always able to do anything at any time, unlike most RPGs where you pick a class at the beginning and that limits what you can do (e.g. a D&D fighter cannot ever cast even the simplest of cantrips unless they multi-class, and doing so would seriously affect their fighting ability because they wouldn't be able to cast spells while wearing armour).

So, being able to buy the spell from Faralda isn't a problem because you wouldn't be able to cast it if you didn't have sufficient magical aptitude to do so, which would apply to most of Skyrim's population.

[Spore]

Considering that you have students like J'zargo that attempted to explode you with experimental scrolls, I think the student attrition rate is pretty high.

Oh it was all a jolly misunderstanding. J'Zargo is an obedient follower. And he wants power. So I gave him power, and immortality. Sadly the Dawnguard Vampire Hunters attacking us didn't agree with that. As we speak his dust is being spread with the winds. Fly, little cat, fly and become one with Aetherius!

[Keltest]

As far as the college goes, it seems more like a university where the people involved research magic to understand it rather than to learn the basics of it to go out and make a living as a mage.

The only lesson we see is making sure that the students know how to avoid getting hurt before theyre unleashed into a Nordic ruin full of Draugr and random magical bits and bobs to figure things out on their own.

[LibraryOgre]

So, an idea just floated across my mind...

"Being Dragonborn is like being a Tier One character. You can do everything, in every situation, with no need to specialize."

[Yuki Akuma]

So, an idea just floated across my mind...

"Being Dragonborn is like being a Tier One character. You can do everything, in every situation, with no need to specialize."

Really more the power of CHIM/being a Hero in general.

[Triaxx]

Fair's fair, supposedly the bunch you melt in Fellow keep were former students. Or at least student's of students. Plus the various court wizards, some of whom probably trained elsewhere, the four surviving students, the four you find burnt to a crisp/frozen. Five that got murdered by a glove. Plus the city which presumably once contained a bunch of students that dropped off a mountain side. Suffice to say, it's got no OSHA compliance.

[DigoDragon]

Oh it was all a jolly misunderstanding. J'Zargo is an obedient follower. And he wants power. So I gave him power, and immortality. Sadly the Dawnguard Vampire Hunters attacking us didn't agree with that. As we speak his dust is being spread with the winds. Fly, little cat, fly and become one with Aetherius!

Pffft, okay that was amusing. ^__^

So, an idea just floated across my mind...

"Being Dragonborn is like being a Tier One character. You can do everything, in every situation, with no need to specialize."

That sounds about right. Seems like Dragonborns are the ultimate all-skilled adventurer that is only hindered by the occasional corrupt save file Dragon Break.

[Mando Knight]

I think the main problem here is that the player character in Skyrim really can do anything, but I don't think that's how things are supposed to go in the general run of the population. Being able to cast even a simple spell is something that's beyond 99% of the people in the game, for instance. This has always been the case in the Elder Scrolls series--the player character is always able to do anything at any time, unlike most RPGs where you pick a class at the beginning and that limits what you can do (e.g. a D&D fighter cannot ever cast even the simplest of cantrips unless they multi-class, and doing so would seriously affect their fighting ability because they wouldn't be able to cast spells while wearing armour).

So, being able to buy the spell from Faralda isn't a problem because you wouldn't be able to cast it if you didn't have sufficient magical aptitude to do so, which would apply to most of Skyrim's population.

Also, buying spells from Faralda lets you bypass the problem of "I've become the greatest Conjurer in all Tamriel, and you won't let me in because I never picked up Healing Hands?"

[Caelestion]

Also, buying spells from Faralda lets you bypass the problem of "I've become the greatest Conjurer in all Tamriel, and you won't let me in because I never picked up Healing Hands?"

To be fair, that sounds like an extremely niche problem.

[factotum]

To be fair, that sounds like an extremely niche problem.

Not really. If you're relying mainly on Conjuration then you just recast your summons when they die--healing them is a total waste of time and effort, and I don't think it's even possible to do so in most cases (Atronachs just resist Healing Hands and its ilk, for example). So, a high-end Conjurer who can summon the denizens of Oblivion to his bidding but who couldn't cure a hangnail on a child is an entirely possible situation. I mean, you would expect Faralda to at least give you a choice of spells to cast to impress her, but no, she generally just picks one and you have to be able to cast it or else you're not getting in.

[Keltest]

Not really. If you're relying mainly on Conjuration then you just recast your summons when they die--healing them is a total waste of time and effort, and I don't think it's even possible to do so in most cases (Atronachs just resist Healing Hands and its ilk, for example). So, a high-end Conjurer who can summon the denizens of Oblivion to his bidding but who couldn't cure a hangnail on a child is an entirely possible situation. I mean, you would expect Faralda to at least give you a choice of spells to cast to impress her, but no, she generally just picks one and you have to be able to cast it or else you're not getting in.

She also lets you Shout at her, which can be darkly amusing if you Fus-Ro-Da her off the cliff.

And if you are the guildmaster of the Thieves' Guild with their amulet, you can just persuade her youre a great mage even though you don't even know any spells, which I think is actually highly appropriate.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Perhaps in addition, if you fail the entry quest, your back up is a quest that is longer which will train you in the skills relevant to the guild you're trying to gain entrance to.

I like this idea.

Considering that you have students like J'zargo that attempted to explode you with experimental scrolls, I think the student attrition rate is pretty high.

Also second this. And there's a civil war pulling potential students away (and getting them killed) and it's in a magic-hating province to begin with, in a Hold where the Jarl actively blames people who join for something that quite possibly happened before they were born. And it's in the middle of no where; I suspect the College of Whispers and the Synod are easier to reach from anywhere but Skyrim.

the four you find burnt to a crisp/frozen. Five that got murdered by a glove.

Weren't those the same ones?

[Spore]

With an environment that hostile of arcane casters no wonder the land is doused in Hagravens, Necromancers and Rogue Wizards. I actually sympathize with the few keep ruins where Mages band to together to - potentially - escape the iron grip of the war.

[Temotei]

I feel some of the school teachers are the equivalent of grad students. I mean Drevis can't even perform an Invisibility spell right. Faralda seems capable, as does Tolfdir. But they do not actively hold lessons tbh. They do what I would call tutoring.

Collette, Faralda, Drevis, Urag, and Phinis all hold lectures, though they're the same one every time from what I could tell. So five lectures total. Collette talks about Restoration, Urag about Shalidor, Faralda about the College of Whispers and the Synod, I think, but that one's not so much a lecture as a debriefing. Drevis talks about Doomstones, and Phinis talks about the Eye of Magnus, which is probably the easiest to miss if you're just going through the questline for the college.

Perhaps in addition, if you fail the entry quest, your back up is a quest that is longer which will train you in the skills relevant to the guild you're trying to gain entrance to.

I like that.

Weren't those the same ones?

Nah, the four killed in the Midden were separate.

[Triaxx]

Is it only four? I thought I remembered five.

[Mando Knight]

To be fair, that sounds like an extremely niche problem.

Not really. If you're relying mainly on Conjuration then you just recast your summons when they die--healing them is a total waste of time and effort, and I don't think it's even possible to do so in most cases (Atronachs just resist Healing Hands and its ilk, for example). So, a high-end Conjurer who can summon the denizens of Oblivion to his bidding but who couldn't cure a hangnail on a child is an entirely possible situation. I mean, you would expect Faralda to at least give you a choice of spells to cast to impress her, but no, she generally just picks one and you have to be able to cast it or else you're not getting in.

It's just an example, not a specific case, really. The five spells she asks you to cast are Firebolt, Conjure Flame Atronach, Fear, Healing Hands, and Magelight. A specialist in Illusion might prefer optimizing Frenzy over learning Firebolt, or a Destruction mage might have never cast a spell that didn't directly deal damage.

[Temotei]

Is it only four? I thought I remembered five.

I just double-checked the wiki, and it appears there are only four. The book you read doesn't specify, though, as far as I remember.

It's just an example, not a specific case, really. The five spells she asks you to cast are Firebolt, Conjure Flame Atronach, Fear, Healing Hands, and Magelight. A specialist in Illusion might prefer optimizing Frenzy over learning Firebolt, or a Destruction mage might have never cast a spell that didn't directly deal damage.

If you had a choice to demonstrate skill that would be cool. Faralda says something similar to what she already says when asking you what you seek at the college, with one option for each school plus a bonus option for "I just want to see what it looks like inside" for those who want a random spell from her still. Then based on your choice, she picks a spell from a short list within that school and asks you to cast it. That could work.

[Spore]

e: Wrong thread, sorry.

But when I am already here. What fun quests would suit the Listener of the Dark Brotherhood outside of their questline?

[Caelestion]

I have no idea what you just said there.