How to send out a "messenger"?

[Calthropstu]

Well, if they're truly dead, then that adds making a Zombie, Skeleton, Frostfallen, or Juju Zombie of it an option, I suppose.



A demon won't care about a weaker or similar strength ally dying or being humiliated, and being carved up isn't going to spook anyone used to demons, let alone actual demons. They certainly won't care about some rando demon that they don't even know and isn't part of whatever crew they're in. Maybe they'd make a note of whoever did it, but that isn't something you can guarantee.

Now, if you're talking taking a Balor or other heavy and having it go around, then, yeah, you might spook the lower rungs of the demon hierarchy in a small area for a bit, but it's not going to accomplish much in the grand scheme of things, because, again, there's a whole lot of hostile territory that will just finish it off without giving it a second thought if it even has a mind to think with in the first place, and demons aren't going to spook easy when they're in a horde, especially if their masters are right at hand.

Stragglers and independents might avoid the area that the ruined Balor came from, or it might give them the idea to try to gather up into a horde and head that way, since that means there's something worth destroying there if someone cared that much about it.

The only way to accomplish something along the lines of what Barstro seems to want is to get an infamous, named outsider and enslaving it or killing it and then having a way of getting the word out without just having the proof destroyed by happenstance or the fact that you're sending it into a hive of demons. Well, that or a veritable flood of upper tier demons and the undead created from their bodies.

What's mostly going to be accomplished by either of those routes is that you'll attract the direct attention of Deskari and Baphomet.

Unless what you did was gank Deskari and/or Baphomet, in which case you're well on your way to just destroying the Worldwound outright.

So there you have it OP. Kill Deskari or Baphomet.

[Barstro]

You DID ask for "rebuttals" as well as ideas. (And if you only asked for "ideas" the top one would probably be "do something else.")

Ok, good point. I really meant to rebut my spell selection for "better spell ideas", since I'd rather have writing on the demon's body as opposed to carving him up (carving is NOT my PC's MO). But I chose my words, so I must live by them.

PC Background.

Spoiler

Show

PC grew up as an orphan scavenging and then working in the sewers from the age of eight until about 20. A wizard with the military noticed that the PC had some magical prowess and took him under his wing.

Several years of training and the PC was joined with his first party about a year ago. On a simple patrol mission to make sure the boarders were still safe, the party was attacked by demons. My PC, being use a battlefield control and buffer Sorcerer, witnessed his team be taken out in just a couple rounds (before my PC had any time to contribute anything). There being nothing else he could do then, he ran away.

Fast forward six months. Without warning, a demon army breaks through the worldwound and decimates the city in hours. My PC and a couple other of the few survivors are conscripted and given a mission to try to heal the worldwound so that the demons cannot do any more harm. Around that time, the PC learned that he is an orphan because his parents were killed by demons 24 years earlier.

My PC has sworn to protect his teammates. He will not let another party fall like his first one. The most directly offensive spell he has ever cast was a couple uses of a Magic Missile wand when the rest of the party was unable to hit an enemy. Other than that, he continues to just be control (pits, walls, debuffs to bring down flyers) and buffing. He has been complicit in every action his party has taken, but has done almost no direct damage to any demon.

He never asked for this; he just wanted peace. Even with all of the demon's aggression, he wants only to heal the wound so they cannot destroy his world.

My PC has specialized in crafting items for the party. Due to Mythic rules, he can craft wondrous items at 8,000 gp per day. Despite that ability, one of the party members requested a Quicken Rod (lesser). This task had such a high opportunity cost as to be all but impossible, and my PC stated so. However, the rest of the party felt it was a good idea as well, so the entire party stopped adventuring for 17 days (all while hell is raining down on the land) so that the other member could have this rod. For comparison, my PC could have made three +6 Belts of Giant Strength in that same amount of time while the party was still adventuring). My PC felt that he sacrificed a lot to make this rod, and it needed to be used to its fullest.

Currently, the party is traveling with the Queen on another mission to find a way to kick the demons out. While parlaying with a band of demons, the demons offered a truly fantastic offer and seemed honest in their desire for peace. The gift was a Trojan horse and a battle commenced. My PC was (unknown to him) under a Domination type of spell and could only stand there and watch as his party and his M.F. QUEEN were brutally attacked for a few rounds. When my PC did manage to get out of the spell, a demon stole the rod and vanished.

My PC is very upset. His greatest fear (being unable to help his party) was just realized, and it almost cost the life of his Queen. On top of that, a rod that he will never have the time to make again has been stolen. All by these demons who just decided to come into his world and start destroying everything. This last group had the audacity to speak of truce, and then attacked.

NO MORE. He will send back a single example. Something that the rest of the demons and look upon and remember. Something that will keep them on their side so that the world on this side can remain at peace.

In summary;
He cares about helping others more than normal people do.
He was forced to watch his party get nearly destroyed while he was unable to do anything.
An item that he spent the most time on and will never be able to make again was just taken.

My PC's anticipated action (planned on MY part, but is spontaneous for the PC) is a one time thing to send a message to the Powers That Be on the other side to stop coming over here and destroying everything.

I realize some of these responses came before the knowledge that this was a demon from an invading army and not just some random dude. My apologies for not being specific before (but I was not expecting an alignment debate).

Is this enemy irredeemable? Are they capable of being incarcerated or humiliated?

No. This is to send a message to the leaders of the invading army. Incarceration or humiliation (at least less humiliation than I am intending) would not do anything. Locking up this demon and sending stern letters across the worldwound stating how sad this demon is to get only three meals per day isn't going to do much.

A Good character who loses his temper and brutalizes somebody, once, has to answer to himself severely, but may not become Evil. A Good character who sees brutalizing somebody as a thing that is right and proper to do is not a Good character; he is a character whose mindset is decidedly non-Good.

This is a one-time thing, not a new way of acting.

What was wrong with redeeming it by sticking it in a gem for a year?

Does not send a message to the other demons. The purpose of this is to send that message.

If you still want to make an example out of him, cast (or buy and then use a scroll of) that Exalted spell (remember, you just need to be non-Evil to cast Exalted spells) that imprisons its target in a gem for a year and forcibly changes their alignment to Good.

This would do nothing for the current situation.

That's... Honestly appallingly evil.
"Do not mess with me because I shall destroy you" is pretty clearly Evil ethos.

This is no more than what was done under the authority of law a mere few hundred years ago. I agree that it is cruel and unusual punishment in today's world, but the game is not in today's world. My PC didn't decide to send a message and then pick someone out at random. He was continually attacked by invaders, forced to watch his party almost die, and an important item taken from him. This will be his in-the-moment idea on how to stop this without more deaths.

Ignoring the alignment issue, Conditional Curse is good for this. Make the removal condition humiliating.

Not a bad idea.

Keep in mind, at this level, the demon could be cured of all of this by only a few castings of Greater Dispel Magic. It wouldn't even cost his savior any materials.

I would still like a way to write "Thief" and "Coward" on the demon instead of having my PC carve it into his flesh.

[Psyren]

No. This is to send a message to the leaders of the invading army. Incarceration or humiliation (at least less humiliation than I am intending) would not do anything. Locking up this demon and sending stern letters across the worldwound stating how sad this demon is to get only three meals per day isn't going to do much.

I realize some of these responses came before the knowledge that this was a demon from an invading army and not just some random dude. My apologies for not being specific before (but I was not expecting an alignment debate).

So you admit that you were withholding pretty vital information about this whole scenario from the get-go but I got the snarky reply anyway. Kinda disingenuous.

Keep in mind, at this level, the demon could be cured of all of this by only a few castings of Greater Dispel Magic. It wouldn't even cost his savior any materials.

I would still like a way to write "Thief" and "Coward" on the demon instead of having my PC carve it into his flesh.

Mark of Justice could do this, and therefore Bestow Curse could imitate it.

As for the markings being removable, well, there aren't many demons with GDM or the means to duplicate it so it would probably stick for a while. Really, anything you do to it short of binding and slaying it can be undone, so you have to pick your battles, especially at your level. A mortal cursing it with Sharpie is probably going to lower its standing for a while, and at least he can't just find a Babau to clear it off with a few minutes of spamming.

NO MORE. He will send back a single example. Something that the rest of the demons and look upon and remember. Something that will keep them on their side so that the world on this side can remain at peace.

Yeah, good luck with that Even Iomedae can't manage that one.

[Barstro]

So you admit that you were withholding pretty vital information about this whole scenario from the get-go but I got the snarky reply anyway. Kinda disingenuous.

My initial inquiry was "I want to do this, what are some ways that I can". Other people wanted to change it into an alignment debate. I admit to withholding information that I felt was not pertinent to the original question. If I had the exact same text but never mentioned my character was CG (and said "demon" instead of "someone", I feel like the question would have been answered more swiftly.

To the extent that my attempts to reign in the tangential conversations could be taken as "snarky", I apologize.

EDIT; you may have been referring to both responses in my last post as opposed to my early posts. That was likewise not me trying to be snarky, but to point out why I feel the suggestion would not work. I do realize that your initial response was based on the premise that my PC was doing this to an otherwise redeemable person. Frankly, I'm still having trouble finding a way to word my response to address your initial question and fully explaining why it wouldn't work without a snarky tone being read into it. My fault for an inability to address a question after bringing in more specific facts, and I apologize again.

Mark of Justice could do this, and therefore Bestow Curse could imitate it.

Perfect.

Yeah, good luck with that Even Iomedae can't manage that one.

You and I know that. But my PC is overly angry. He's going to be even angrier if I'm correct that of the two demons who ran away, the one he is going to track down is not the one with the rod.

[Barstro]

Psyren,

Now that I have explained my PC's motivation (something I didn't want to do in case other players read these posts and can figure out who I am on here), do you agree that it is conceivable that my PC would do this?

He's doing it anyway, of course, but I am curious if your much more expert opinion agrees.

As another bit of information that I still consider irrelevant, but you might think is important; my PC is wearing an amulet that lets him know if he's about to do something that could cause his alignment to change. Pretty sure he'd still do it, and justify it with "good wasn't getting the job done". He wouldn't be able to wear his shiny new Robe of the Archmagi (white) any longer, though. Sounds like a fun roleplaying opportunity.

[Gildedragon]

This is no more than what was done under the authority of law a mere few hundred years ago. I agree that it is cruel and unusual punishment in today's world, but the game is not in today's world. My PC didn't decide to send a message and then pick someone out at random. He was continually attacked by invaders, forced to watch his party almost die, and an important item taken from him. This will be his in-the-moment idea on how to stop this without more deaths

Which is why I asked for context but you got all... Difficult.
Also things done under the Law are not intrinsically good.

As to regarding your particular situation:
A) that's not a minor scrape, so you mischaracterized the situation.

B) you're not gonna Intimidate the demonic hordes. Not without stopping to their level. You'd only show them your power giving them ways to plan around it.
If you don't kill it, the demon will fester in anger, find a way to be free of your curse, and come back at you with a vengeance.
If you dont kill it, the other demons will see you as weak and soft hearted... And if Your action is shocking to them then you'll incite reprisals seeking to Intimidate you: reprisals that will be on innocents and done by beings with no mercy.

C) chasing revenge instead of a solution may be counterproductive to party cohesion and goals

D) who in blazes thinks to negotiate with beings of pure Chaos and Evil. Backstabbing is inevitable.

Trapping the demon is probably the most expedient solution. Especially if you can trap him to fuel a magic item... I dunno if PF has rules for that a'la elemental binding from Eberron. But making the demon into the power source for an item to heal and aid the party is poetic and increases the party resources instead of reducing them. If there isn't: suggest the idea to your DM.

Your character may be spur of the moment angry and frothing at the mouth, thinking awful thoughts, but what happens when they (an intrinsically good person) cool down? A day or two pass: he's still peeved but the intensity of their anger probably goes down, especially if satisfying his revenge is off-course for the party mission.

[Zanos]

While parlaying with a band of demons, the demons offered a truly fantastic offer and seemed honest in their desire for peace.

[Coidzor]

W-were you forced to do something so insane and foolish by the module?

Did no one have Sense Motive? A positive Wisdom modifier?

[Barstro]

As to regarding your particular situation:
A) that's not a minor scrape, so you mischaracterized the situation.

I think that a rational person would consider "had a shiny taken" to not warrant my proposed response. Sure, all the background information makes it more likely. As I stated, I did not feel the background information important to answer the posed question.

B) you're not gonna Intimidate the demonic hordes.

I know that, but the PC will not be thinking rationally

C) chasing revenge instead of a solution may be counterproductive to party cohesion and goals

We expect to find him in the next 90 minutes. He's somewhere in this building.

D) who in blazes thinks to negotiate with beings of pure Chaos and Evil. Backstabbing is inevitable.

It's what the party wanted to do. I felt my PC's charisma was too low to try to dissuade them.

Trapping the demon is probably the most expedient solution.

True. But that's not what my PC will want to do.

Your character may be spur of the moment angry and frothing at the mouth, thinking awful thoughts, but what happens when they (an intrinsically good person) cool down? A day or two pass: he's still peeved but the intensity of their anger probably goes down, especially if satisfying his revenge is off-course for the party mission.

I appreciate all the talk of correct strategy and planning for this. But my character will be in a state where his high intelligence is overshadowed by what remains of his low wisdom.

Again, those consequences for my PC's actions sound like a good source for roleplaying.

[Barstro]

W-were you forced to do something so insane and foolish by the module?

Did no one have Sense Motive? A positive Wisdom modifier?

My PC did some Detect Magic, Discern Lies, etc. But he was already under some mind control and received false readings. That's another reason he is beyond reason at this point; the party was put in danger when it was HIS job to warn them.

[Psyren]

To the extent that my attempts to reign in the tangential conversations could be taken as "snarky", I apologize.

What I meant is that quite obviously nobody would suggest reforming a demon or "sending letters across the Worldwound" if we had known that the offender in question was, in fact, a demon. So that comment rankled a bit.

(Also, it seems to me that the best way to avoid alignment debates is to not mention your character's alignment, if you truly felt it was irrelevant.)

Lastly, "my target is a demon" does not justify any and all responses either. BoED in fact has a passage about how demons seek to enrage mortals and actually encourages them to commit depravities against them. Much like Joker really getting off on it when he goads Batman into basically torturing him, because it makes Batman more like him. A sufficiently angry PC, however CG, can easily fall into this trap as others have been saying.

You and I know that. But my PC is overly angry. He's going to be even angrier if I'm correct that of the two demons who ran away, the one he is going to track down is not the one with the rod.

I mean... what's his Int/Wis? Anger is one thing, but the futility of intimidating the entire Abyss should be fairly obvious...

Anyway, for your specific plan (marking the demon up to show it who's boss) a Curse should do the trick. Or you could use something like Binding on it, and cram it into a gem that you can carry with you, and force it to watch all your good deeds or something? Certainly a demon wouldn't be thrilled about that. You could even do both, just in case the prison fails.

[Coidzor]

My PC did some Detect Magic, Discern Lies, etc. But he was already under some mind control and received false readings. That's another reason he is beyond reason at this point; the party was put in danger when it was HIS job to warn them.

What, were you all mind-controlled, then, that they just blindly went along with the "let's talk to these demons instead of killing them" plan? Is this your GM's favored method of screwing with you all?

I foresee a TPK in your future if scrub demons can mind control the Wizard, let alone the entire party.

[Barstro]

What, were you all mind-controlled, then, that they just blindly went along with the "let's talk to these demons instead of killing them" plan? Is this your GM's favored method of screwing with you all?

I foresee a TPK in your future if scrub demons can mind control the Wizard, let alone the entire party.

The party agreed to go along with it beforehand; partly because they felt we were powerful enough to quickly win if things took a turn for the worse. My PC was the only mind-controlled one (by, I believe, a demon a level or two higher). My PC was given a reasonable check and failed miserably. I see none of it as the GM screwing with us.

[Barstro]

Lastly, "my target is a demon" does not justify any and all responses either.

I mean... what's his Int/Wis? Anger is one thing, but the futility of intimidating the entire Abyss should be fairly obvious...

Agreed. But this isn't his master plan of "scar every demon and send them back". It's "punish this particular one (for all the reasons stated before, and in a non-permanent way) and send him back as an example". If the PC thought about it, he'd know that it wouldn't work; but this will all be in the heat of the moment.

[Psyren]

Agreed. But this isn't his master plan of "scar every demon and send them back". It's "punish this particular one (for all the reasons stated before, and in a non-permanent way) and send him back as an example". If the PC thought about it, he'd know that it wouldn't work; but this will all be in the heat of the moment.

Then you have a workable answer - slap on a curse. You can even make it a bit more painful/restrictive than mere markings.

I don't think the demon will have as easy a time of removing it as you seem to think, but you can always boost your caster level (or that of your proxy) beforehand if you feel that's a worry.

[icefractal]

As Demons are creatures of chaos, I feel like enslaving one or geas'ing it to follow a strict set of rules would be considered a worse fate than carving it up. The only question is how you'd show that off to other demons.

Someone suggested researching a variant golem process to use a trapped demonic soul in place of the elemental one. That sounds good, and you could show it off by visiting the Abyss with your new minion in tow, but it might be a longer term project than is practical.

As for methods of hindering that can't be removed ... that's pretty difficult actually. In 3.5, you could use Mindrape + Revive Outsider to drop it down to 1 HD (or even make it un-resurrectable), but I don't think a spell like that exists in Pathfinder.

Since you're that good at crafting, maybe craft slotless cursed items and implant them inside the demon? While it's unconscious, so it doesn't know they're there, and with lead shielding so they don't show up on Detect Magic and such. Better divinations could find out what's going on, but given said demon will barely be able to function it probably can't get access to those. It does cost some money though.

Given the abyss, I'd suggest that any curses/etc you put on it shouldn't reduce its defenses too much, or other demons will just kill it before many have a chance to see it.


Edit: If you're using DSP material, specifically Psionics, you can do the Psionic Sandwich trick to stick the demon's mind inside an object or non-outsider creature. That gives you a lot more options to work with.

[Barstro]

I don't think the demon will have as easy a time of removing it as you seem to think, but you can always boost your caster level (or that of your proxy) beforehand if you feel that's a worry.

I wasn't concerned that it would be removed. I mentioned that as more justification that it wasn't really an evil thing to be doing, since it was all potentially reversible.

[Barstro]

As Demons are creatures of chaos, I feel like enslavingi one or geas'ing it to follow a strict set of rules would be considered a worse fate than carving it up. The only question is how you'd show that off to other demons...

I like the ideas. However, this all has to be spontaneous (within maybe two minutes). He'll be acting in the heat of the moment, not completing long range plans.

If it becomes something he has time to think about, he WILL realize that it won't actually accomplish anything. And then the dinosaur will just eat the demon while everyone else looks for loot.

[Ellrin]

I wasn't concerned that it would be removed. I mentioned that as more justification that it wasn't really an evil thing to be doing, since it was all potentially reversible.

We're talking about a world where wish and miracle are things people can conceivably do multiple times a day. Pretty much anything is potentially reversible.

[Barstro]

We're talking about a world where wish and miracle are things people can conceivably do multiple times a day. Pretty much anything is potentially reversible.

True. But those spells have a material cost that nobody would waste on this demon. Dispel Magic is at least a reasonable option.