An Attempt to Stat Children

[Telok]

I have an odd system.
Infants and toddlers have two stats: "incompetence" (1d20-10 for any required roll), and "thin red smear" for the result of your average kid/adventurer interaction.
Past toddler and up to about (human) age ten they're first level commoners. Past age ten they replace that with a non-commoner level and gain another npc class level every (human) ten years.

[One Step Two]

The Giant provided baby stats in another thread:

I'd extend these to pretty much anything below teenager.

Same here.

If I run a "level 0" start for some games, where younger characters haven't yet learned their classes. I use the minimum age for adulthood for their race, and give them the basic benefits of being a single HD for their Type or subtype, such as any humanoid.
Much like and 1HD monster, the moment they take a class level they change their traits accordingly. This may lead to some oddities in losing HP as they move to wizard for example, or changing of skills, but it's simple and adheres to RAW for the most part.

If you really feel like adding stat changes, things like -2 Str and +2 Dex works well as pathfinder recommends.

[Celestia]

I don't see why a child should be barred from having real class levels. They should just get -1 size category, -2 STR, -2 CON for each age category below adult, -2 INT, -2 WIS for each category below teenager, and -2 DEX, -2 CHA for each category below child, say - so a teenager would be a small creature, but could still technically be a powerful wizard in their own right. A toddler would have to contend with various penalties to all of its ability scores, and the fact that it's a diminutive creature, and that it probably only has one commoner hit die and nothing else.

There's nothing in me that thinks it particularly odd that children should be decent fighters, especially since in a lot of cultures they actually were in medieval times. Let them have their PC class levels already.

Since when are toddlers 6 to 12 inches tall?

[DarkSoul]

Do you really want hit points for toddlers in the land of "if it has stats, we can kill it"?

[Thurbane]

If the OP wants to introduce extra RHD for all humanoids, it's fine, but it will have radical repercussions through the game. A lot of other rules will need to be shunted around and modified to to accommodate. There's a reason so few people want to play creatures with RHD.

Also, I'm curious...what exactly is an uberchild? A Google search mainly shows me a brand of child products.

I have a mental image of something like this:

[Max Caysey]

Do you really want hit points for toddlers in the land of "if it has stats, we can kill it"?

Yes... for necromancers...


I have to say, I suggest making anything without PC classes commoner, expert or aristocrat. That would include children. When that child reaches late teen i.e. starting age for adventures, that one level of an NPC class is retrained to what ever like normal. If you want your players to start at level 3, then possibly that child had reached level 3 commoner during its growing up, helping mom clean the dishes and helping dad cleave wood etc. Again retrain to level 3 fighter.

Its easy, it works, and your get rid of that awful RHD-nonsense...

Stats wise I suggest something like -2, -4, -6 depending on age... toddler having no stats as that's just lame.

[Mordaedil]

If the OP wants to introduce extra RHD for all humanoids, it's fine, but it will have radical repercussions through the game. A lot of other rules will need to be shunted around and modified to to accommodate. There's a reason so few people want to play creatures with RHD.

Also, I'm curious...what exactly is an uberchild? A Google search mainly shows me a brand of child products.

I have a mental image of something like this:

I reckon uberchild is a bad translation of 'teenager'.

[Frozen_Feet]

Do you really want hit points for toddlers in the land of "if it has stats, we can kill it"?

You speak as if not having stats would somehow save them.

Any game featuring children which isn't children's fantasy better be able to deal with child mortality.

---

Back to the business at hand:

1 RHD humanoids aren't. Any humanoid species with only one 1 RHD automatically swaps that for a class level.

Class levels before Young Adult aren't. Each class has a starting age specified for a reason, those years model the effort required to earn the skills, abilities and starting money for that class. A character plain isn't able to earn experience before they are at least a Young Adult.

So my first suggestion is that advancement below Young Adult is strictly age only and growth only. My second is that if you want to model gradual learning, each year of life past 4 nets 1 skillpoint, up to a maximum of (Int mod + 2 x 4), since that is the lowest possible amount of skills at 1st level, using the class skill list of the character's parents. 1st feat is gained upon becoming a teenager, that is, 13 years. Children below 13 are small.

[SirNibbles]

I reckon uberchild is a bad translation of 'teenager'.

Since it was the 9-14 age category (66% non-teen), calling it 'teenager' seemed odd.

Do you really want hit points for toddlers in the land of "if it has stats, we can kill it"?

Yes.

Since when are toddlers 6 to 12 inches tall?

Since Genetic Control limited humanoid height to four feet.

Yes... for necromancers...


I have to say, I suggest making anything without PC classes commoner, expert or aristocrat. That would include children. When that child reaches late teen i.e. starting age for adventures, that one level of an NPC class is retrained to what ever like normal. If you want your players to start at level 3, then possibly that child had reached level 3 commoner during its growing up, helping mom clean the dishes and helping dad cleave wood etc. Again retrain to level 3 fighter.

Its easy, it works, and your get rid of that awful RHD-nonsense...

Stats wise I suggest something like -2, -4, -6 depending on age... toddler having no stats as that's just lame.

I have two issues with static penalties:
1. You'll end up with some children who have superior stats to an average adult. I don't think there's any world in which a 1 year old would be walking stumbling around with 12 Int.
2. As you change age categories, the child suddenly gains all-around stat improvements (after years of no stat growth at all).

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Also, why does a fetus get a stat block? >:|

Jup, should probably just be treated as part of the mother. The child dies if the mother does (barring story-wise circumstances like the PC's trying to save the child in the 9th month or something). No miscarriages because someone punched mom in the stomach.

On the main topic: wasn't there a way to make 0th level commoners? Either with the full first 4 HP or half that, no bab, saves or other class features (not that a commoner would get those anyway and without the 1st level feat, but with racial traits including for humans that other 1st level feat.

That approach from Pathfinder that was linked also sounds nice if you want to put in a little extra work, especially because of the ability score penalties.

Ones a child starts adventuring just make it level 1 whatever it wants. If in the hands of a player you might talk to them about an ability score penalty that goes away when they reach adulthood or their late teens, which might make them less hesitant to for instance take a high strength score because they feel like a child shouldn't have that. (If you really want to go all out, count the total number of -'s they get and spread those out over a period of several years. Every so many months they lose another -1.)

And if you ever need an actual stat block for any child young enough to go into the small size category, outside of maybe a comedy campaign about a pie throwing war in an indoor playground, with all due respect, I think you're using D&D wrong.

[Max Caysey]

I have two issues with static penalties:
1. You'll end up with some children who have superior stats to an average adult. I don't think there's any world in which a 1 year old would be walking stumbling around with 12 Int.
2. As you change age categories, the child suddenly gains all-around stat improvements (after years of no stat growth at all).

1) Ok, so you just increase it, to lets say -4, -8, -12 in all stats down to a minimum of 3.

2) No they would gain that gradually if for some reason anyone would be playing a child and player years in-game that is. Reducing the penalty something like every 4 years or so, until you get to starting age, where no penalty is had.

[SirNibbles]

1) Ok, so you just increase it, to lets say -4, -8, -12 in all stats down to a minimum of 3.

2) No they would gain that gradually if for some reason anyone would be playing a child and player years in-game that is. Reducing the penalty something like every 4 years or so, until you get to starting age, where no penalty is had.

4 years is a huge gap, and that's the point I was making earlier.

[Mordaedil]

Since it was the 9-14 age category (66% non-teen), calling it 'teenager' seemed odd.

That is called tweens, preadolescence. For age category purpose, you might as well call them teens because you otherwise aren't going to be using it, since you label 15 year olds adults.

Uberchildren means nothing in the English language.

[Ashtagon]

"Tween" as a word was invented by Tolkein, who used it to indicate hobbits aged 20-33.

Anyone who uses it to indicate pre-teenagers is confusing the issue, especially in the context of a game that uses not-hobbits, or hobbits with their serial numbers filed off.

fwiw, google ngrams shows the word has a long history, but doesn't distinguish between tween as Tolkien (or urban dictionary) imagines the word, and tween as a poetic shortening of "between".

[Manyasone]

but I think having the mechanic there in case it happens is convenient.

Dude, what the actual f*ck

[Max Caysey]

4 years is a huge gap, and that's the point I was making earlier.

But how many age categories do you need? My 4 year gap is a total of 12 years, so it goes dow to 3-15, that seems pretty good... What specifically are you after, that I apparently dont get? You think there should be a difference in every 2-3 years? Ok so you have a -3, -6, -9 and -12 on your stats... that way its every 3 years now. Fixed... you're welcome!

[Calthropstu]

Ok, I'll be serious for a second. The stats for children are: You win. What? You want to roll? Ok roll. Did you roll a 1? You win. What? You want me to go into detail? You win. Let's move on.

You want your evil character to go on an evil rampage, you've killed the parents the children are at your mercy. You find them, you can pretty much do whatever you want.
I, as a gm, am not going to go into detail about how you kill them. I am not going to look up stats for them to try to put up some pathetic semblance of a fight.
You win, let's move on. Those are children's stats.

[noob]

And now what do you do against a level 21 wizard who true mindswitched in a child?
Is it still auto win?

[Calthropstu]

And now what do you do against a level 21 wizard who true mindswitched in a child?
Is it still auto win?

Then you auto lose.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

And now what do you do against a level 21 wizard who true mindswitched in a child?
Is it still auto win?

From the SRD for mind switch:

You retain your own hit points, saving throws (possibly modified by new ability scores), class abilities, supernatural and spell-like abilities, spells and powers, and skills and feats (although skill checks use your new ability scores, and you may be temporarily unable to use feats whose requirements you do not meet in your new body).

So no, he would for most intents and purposes, including hit dice and mental stats, still be a level 21 wizard.

Also, a ****.

[noob]

From the SRD for mind switch:



So no, he would for most intents and purposes, including hit dice and mental stats, still be a level 21 wizard.

Also, a ****.

I was quite sure the evil wizard doing this would be a villain.

[Mordaedil]

"Tween" as a word was invented by Tolkein, who used it to indicate hobbits aged 20-33.

Anyone who uses it to indicate pre-teenagers is confusing the issue, especially in the context of a game that uses not-hobbits, or hobbits with their serial numbers filed off.

fwiw, google ngrams shows the word has a long history, but doesn't distinguish between tween as Tolkien (or urban dictionary) imagines the word, and tween as a poetic shortening of "between".

Language is an evolving thing, imagine that.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

I was quite sure the evil wizard doing this would be a villain.

And I'm pretty sure I don't need to know the hit point total of a fetus to deal with the situation, especially since when the wizard dies the child currently in the wizards old body loses a full level, killing them no matter what the exact stats were. Congratulations, now both the players and the GM are baby killers.

Unless of course teenagers have 3 hit dice and only lose them when they pick what they want to be when they grow up.

[SirNibbles]

Ok, I'll be serious for a second. The stats for children are: You win. What? You want to roll? Ok roll. Did you roll a 1? You win. What? You want me to go into detail? You win. Let's move on.

You want your evil character to go on an evil rampage, you've killed the parents the children are at your mercy. You find them, you can pretty much do whatever you want.
I, as a gm, am not going to go into detail about how you kill them. I am not going to look up stats for them to try to put up some pathetic semblance of a fight.
You win, let's move on. Those are children's stats.

Why do you assume everything is about combat and killing?

Yes, perhaps an 11 year old will challenge their father's murderer to a duel. (Losing doesn't mean they will be killed).

Maybe you need them to climb through a window and open a door from the other side so you can go fight a vampire.
Maybe they have information you need and you want to finesse it out of them.
Maybe a woman's baby is in a burning building and the DM needs to see how many rounds it can breathe before it dies to know if the PCs rescued it in time.
Maybe they can work as a double agent, giving the Germans false information about sniper positions in exchange for chocolate.


There are plenty of reasons to have stats beyond just being a murderhobo.

[ahyangyi]

I reckon uberchild is a bad translation of 'teenager'.

Won't say it's a teenager when 15 is considered as the human adult age in at least the PF source. But it's close.
I just silently translated that to "over-child", uber=over.

[Frozen_Feet]

I dislike the PF system for several reasons.

It implies that around 20% of 8 year-olds will be stronger than the average adult, assuming all stats are generated using the 4d6h3 system. It also fails to address children below the age of 8. Furthermore, it doesn't solve the issue of children not having HD until they take class levels.

I think a percentage-based system is better at representing the growth of a child over time.

Average people aren't generated using 4d6kh6, they are generated using 3d6 in order.

Also, the Pathfinder system is only really meant to be applied to heroic, prodigy children, not average children.

Mordaedil is right. Your average kid is created by 3d6 rolls. 4d6-drop-lowest is for that fraction of people who are considered "heroic" enough to take PC classes.

For modelling purposes, you ought to assume everyone gets generated via 3d6 rolls, and PCs are simply selected from the subset of people with scores falling in the 4d6-drop-lowest range.

Also, "20% are better than average adult" is not actually all that wondrous for 9 to 15 year olds, if your assumption of "average adult" strength is 10.5. Remember, carrying capacity et all are directly influenced by size, and prepubescents (ages below 13) ought to be one size category smaller than adults. An adolescent athlete (14 to 15 in our case) can very well be stronger than average joe.

"The statistics presented here describe a fairly small dog of about 20 to 50 pounds in weight."
- Monster Manual, page 271

Poodles weigh between 45 and 70 pounds. Rottweilers weigh over 100 pounds. They'd be closer to a Riding Dog (medium) which has 2d8 HD.

*does pounds to kilograms conversions*

*takes a look at dogs*

Dude, "20 to 50 pounds" is big enough to include smaller German shephers and wolves. These creatures have bite strength great enough to break adult human bones. Poodles and corgis may look funnier, but their bite strength is still considerable. They can cause severe injuries to humans.

] Falling from a 10 foot ladder while fixing a window would most likely drop a commoner.

And this is wondrous how? 10 feet is 3 meters. An uncontrolled fall from that height can kill you and accidents involving 10 ft. ladders are so common in real life that they actually banned such ladders in our work safety regulations.

Maybe the HP rules are closer to reality than you give them credit for.

[Ashtagon]

Language is an evolving thing, imagine that.

As a language teacher, I am astonishingly well aware of that. Imagine that.

[Max Caysey]

Why do you assume everything is about combat and killing?

Yes, perhaps an 11 year old will challenge their father's murderer to a duel. (Losing doesn't mean they will be killed).

Maybe you need them to climb through a window and open a door from the other side so you can go fight a vampire.
Maybe they have information you need and you want to finesse it out of them.
Maybe a woman's baby is in a burning building and the DM needs to see how many rounds it can breathe before it dies to know if the PCs rescued it in time.
Maybe they can work as a double agent, giving the Germans false information about sniper positions in exchange for chocolate.


There are plenty of reasons to have stats beyond just being a murderhobo.

All the above reasons do not need statting...

1) If you need the child to climb out the window, then make the child do so as a DM. You don't want the quest to fail because of a bad roll from the NPC child.
2) Same thing with the information. Role-play it. No need to give the child a +1 to a skill role for you (the player) then to automatically win it.
3) How is breathing related to dying in a burning building. Surely its how long it can hold its breath before suffocating. Not sure babies know to do that, so you really need to know how fast a building fills with smoke and heat. The baby's Con score is inconsequential. It dies when the room/building flashover.
4) I can see a bit of rolling going on here, depending on age and class. A level 1 rogue child could be all well enough if the back story is that this child was a street child, who has been surviving on its own during the war. But then again. It would not be a RHD, but a class to represent the character. Still with reduced ability scores. I would still not go beyond level 1 i think, and so the skill would be fairly low. But personally I would just set a DC for the soldier to beat with sense motive and be done with it. I would not stat out a child for that. Unless its some recurring character. But then again its going to be a PC or NPC class with reduced ability scores.

And this is wondrous how? 10 feet is 3 meters. An uncontrolled fall from that height can kill you and accidents involving 10 ft. ladders are so common in real life that they actually banned such ladders in our work safety regulations.

Maybe the HP rules are closer to reality than you give them credit for.

A severe concussion can debilitate an adult human for years. That can easily happen from 10 ft fall. There is a Danish female handball player who ended her career after a fall (from her own 5ft-ish height) while trying to make a save (being a goalie) She ended up in the hospital and had to stay in a dark room for a year or so. Now after a year she can watch 15 min of television and have 15 min conversations.

[Jormengand]

Since when are toddlers 6 to 12 inches tall?

There should probably be an extra age category stuck between child and toddler.

Ok, I'll be serious for a second. The stats for children are: You win. What? You want to roll? Ok roll. Did you roll a 1? You win. What? You want me to go into detail? You win. Let's move on.

You want your evil character to go on an evil rampage, you've killed the parents the children are at your mercy. You find them, you can pretty much do whatever you want.
I, as a gm, am not going to go into detail about how you kill them. I am not going to look up stats for them to try to put up some pathetic semblance of a fight.
You win, let's move on. Those are children's stats.

Right, and what if a DM wants to run one of those rare and terrible settings where non-adults are forced not only to be in, but to be good at combat (or something else), like, say, Lord of the Rings (At the battle of Helm's Deep), Warhammer 40,000 (Space marine hopefuls, probably some guardsmen if we're honest, Necromundan Juves), the Hunger Games (entire premise), GONE (entire premise), or real life (do you want me to list every example throughout history? 'Cause we'll be here a long time.)? What then?

Add to that the fact that the kids in GONE are wielding some nasty spell-like abilities (such as telekinesis, searing light, reverse gravity, and souped-up versions of haste and bull's strength which are not adequately represented by the base spell), and two of them (White-text spoiler) are toddlers with divine ranks. Yes, this is weird but makes sense in context, and half of them are regularly trying to kill each other, and you quickly end up with a situation where you need stats for them.

Sure, if you end up against a child with one commoner level, the result is probably "They die horribly". That's because you're a fifth-level [whatever] and they're a first-level commoner, not because you're an adult and they're a child.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Right, and what if a DM wants to run one of those rare and terrible settings where non-adults are forced not only to be in, but to be good at combat (or something else)

Character progression by class levels. Or is that too obvious? Humans generally don't have creature hit dice, but those that are good at something have one of more levels in classes. Marginally trained foot soldiers are first level warriors, even when they're 15 or, and please don't make me play this campaign, 9. Army regulars and veterans with some experience but no exceptional heroic stories are level 2 or 3 warriors, fighters, rangers etc, in most settings, and people who just saved the world are high level PC classes, also even when they're 9. And okay, I'd play that campaign.

Yes, I know D&D officially has starting ages for classes, but honestly, do racial hit dice sound like a better way around that than just ignoring that age limit?

If you're going to have young characters that need to be able to make a difference, at least give them the tools to do so, and do it in such a way that they don't lose most of their hitpoints the moment they turn 15.