Relationship Woes and Advice XXVIII: Happy and Perfect!

[2D8HP]

....I'd advise not talking to David or his mom without the approval of your director, though. If the mom is reactionary like it sounds, you don't want to risk escalating anything....

Seeing as you work for a public library you're probably used to dealing with potentially dangerous people (or maybe your in a small town or Canada?), but "David's" mom sounds like she could be dangerous to your career (accusations, etc.) if not at right a physical danger.

Tread carefully.

[lio45]

Wait does what again? He didn't do anything wrong in the first place besides misjudge a "let's still be friends" statement is really meaning "I'm not at all interested in dating you".

What his mother did was the largely inappropriate thing, but he can hardly be blamed for that.

In fact, of the two of them, it's David who needs friendly advice, not Irene. (David's mom is the person that needs advice most, though there are circumstantial factors in her favor: it's not easy to have an autistic kid and it's understandable that burden could affect her.)

However, Irene is an employee, and David isn't, which means that from a strict business point of view, Velaryon should care about Irene's well being more than David's.

[War_lord]

Autistic guy who has been ****ty to women in my past here (something I'm very much ashamed of).

Ultimately your responsibility is to your fellow employees above all. What David did wasn't wrong as such, because he can't really understand why what he did was wrong, so I feel it would be cruel to blackball him for it. Now, if the issue ever resurfaces, then I'd say it's at the point that you can say "okay, he's essentially harassing one of my co-workers on my watch, after he has been informed it's wrong, he can't come back here".

Obviously his mother handled it in by far the worst way anyone could. But he's not responsible for that. Either way, if I was Velaryon I'd be keeping VERY meticulous notes about these incidents and what he does about them. The reason for it is that I can see a huge chance of this blowing up, Irene has a solid claim for harassment if this isn't dealt with correctly, David's mother could make claims of discrimination against David (those discrimination claims don't have to be true to cause damage).

I think people here are kinda underestimating how difficult the situation is for Irene, even without the element of David's mother blowing up at her.

[Liquor Box]

While David didn't (seemingly) do anything horrible, I think it's quite fair to say that continuing romantic advances, including bringing flowers, after the initial rejection is "a little too far." Not a punishable level, to be certain, but further than Irene wanted.

I also think it's understandable why he didn't understand the initial rejection, and thus he shouldn't be in trouble for just that.

This is why I suggested they not talk to David unless he continued in his advances, or is still trying to pursue a romantic relationship. That would be a potentially more serious issue, and would need to be dealt with. If this is the case, then I'd still get official approval before talking with him.

That said, it could be useful to talk with him after everything settles down, anyways. Not to punish him or anything, but to make sure he understands what's wrong with what happened, and maybe help him not make that mistake in the future. It certainly doesn't seem like his mom is going to be helpful in that regard. But I would only do that if I was in a mentor role with David, which Velaryon may or may not be. (It doesn't quite sound like it, but as Teen Librarian maybe it is?)

I guess that depends whether the "initial rejection" was something that David ought to have understood or something that Irene ought to have made more explicit. The only description we get is "She tried to let him down gently and offered to remain friends. He did not get the message", and I think Valaryon has since indicated that he did not see this happen and only got this account from Irene.

My interpretation of this was that Irene was not clear in her message, she simply hoped David would get her hint. I suppose it might be possible that she was clear but David was simply oblivious, but I don't think Valaryon can make that assumption on what he knows.

I'd agree that if he approaches her again there is a problem and he is the cause of it. Although I do wonder whether it is Valaryon's place to do so - he's just the guy who co-ordinates their library group, so unless he knows them really well (the mentor-like role you mention) or the thing blows up during a library group session, I think it might be a little odd for him to wade on in there.

But as matters stand, I don't think there's any good reason for Valaryon to think that David has done something wrong, or something that he shouldn't repeat at all. And I think it might be quite damaging to David to counsel him to act differently.

[War_lord]

My interpretation of this was that Irene was not clear in her message, she simply hoped David would get her hint. I suppose it might be possible that she was clear but David was simply oblivious, but I don't think Valyrion can make that assumption on what he knows.

Okay, what has to be understood here is that what a neurotypical seventeen year old girl considers very clearly rejecting someone, but doing it gently, is totally incomprehensible to a poorly socialised Autistic thirteen year old. He very likely didn't understand what she was saying, not because she was unclear by normal standards, but because whatever she said likely involved social conventions he can't understand (Such as "lets just be friends" really meaning "I'd never date you"). I can't blame her for that, because she probably doesn't have the in depth knowledge of Autism to understand the level of bluntness required.

I'd agree that if he approaches her again there is a problem and he is the cause of it. Although I do wonder whether it is Valaryon's place to do so - he's just the guy who co-ordinates their library group, so unless he knows them really well (the mentor-like role you mention below) or the thing blows up during a library group session, I think it might be a little odd for him to wade on in there.

I agree, Valaryon shouldn't get directly involved unless it blows up in front of them. If it's a case of it happening when Valaryon isn't around, it should be moved up the chain of command.

Again, this all assumes that there is something wrong with his side of what happened, and that it was David who made the mistake. As above, I'm not sure that it was.

He made a mistake, but the nature of his disability and family situation means he's not entirely to blame.

I would guess that, if nothing else has happened, she's uncomfortable around David because she doesn't want to risk dealing with his mom again. I'd find it very hard to blame her for that.

Or alternatively she's creeped out because a guy with a disability she doesn't fully understand, who's much younger then her, publicly embarrassed her, putting her in a super awkward position, and from her perspective got away with it.

[Liquor Box]

Okay, what has to be understood here is that what a neurotypical seventeen year old girl considers very clearly rejecting someone, but doing it gently, is totally incomprehensible to a poorly socialised Autistic thirteen year old. He very likely didn't understand what she was saying, not because she was unclear by normal standards, but because whatever she said likely involved social conventions he can't understand (Such as "lets just be friends" really meaning "I'd never date you"). I can't blame her for that, because she probably doesn't have the in depth knowledge of Autism to understand the level of bluntness required.

That's all possible. It is also possible that she did not give a clear message the first time and that many people, regardless of whether they are autistic or not, would not have got the message. It may be common for autistic people to have difficulty understanding subtext apparent to others, but it is also common for non-autistic people in awkward situations to give unclear signals by being less than direct.

Which is more likely in this case? Well the starting point is that it we are reading Irene's account of what happened (second hand, through Valaryon) - we are not hearing from the perspective of David (whose perspective may be skewed by his autism). Through Irene's own lens (as relayed by Valaryon) the she contrasts the first rejection against the second more clear rejection. That suggests that first rejection was not clear. It also appears that (as far as Valaryon knows) there have been no further advances after Irene put it clearly, which suggests that once David received a clear rejection, he did leave off. Taken together with the description of the first rejection as letting him down easy and trying to still be friends, I think it suggests it was the rejection itself that was unclear, and not that David simply misunderstood it.

He made a mistake, but the nature of his disability and family situation means he's not entirely to blame.

Maybe. But just as likely (more likely I think for the reasons above) there simply wasn't a clear message the first time. I don't think we (or Valaryon) can assume that because David is autistic (and autistic people sometimes don't read signals so well), there was a clear message that he failed to understand. I think it's just s likely that Irene made a mistake (by not being clear) as it is that David made a mistake by not understanding. Either way, I agree with you that it was very likely innocent and neither is to 'blame'.

Or alternatively she's creeped out because a guy with a disability she doesn't fully understand, who's much younger then her, publicly embarrassed her, putting her in a super awkward position, and from her perspective got away with it.

I think you quoted someone else here, and inadvertently attributed it to me.

In any case, I think it is a bit over-dramatic to say she was put in a "super-awkward position" was "publicly embarrassed" and that David "got away with it". I mean, someone she didn't like gave her flowers in the library. Rejecting suitors (or being rejected by them) is a pretty ordinary and frequent occurrence in teenage life. It may feel a bit awkward and embarrassing to have to say "hey, I'm not interested in you", but it happens. For Irene, even if it was a bit awkward it was probably good preparation for adult life when she will likely again have to turn people down from time to time.

All in all, other than the mother's involvement, it strikes me as a bit of a storm in a tea cup. David asked Irene out, she didn't want to go and the message was not conveyed clearly (whoever's fault that was). He asked again (with flowers) and she gave a very clear no - and as far as we know David has accepted that and not approached her again. It is only the mother's involvement (which strikes me as bizarre - so I wonder if there's more to that story) which makes this any different to the many instances of unrequited love/like/lust in most teenager's lives.

[Recherché]

Dude really? Difficulty reading social cues is one of the biggest symptoms of autism

Why are you blaming the Irene for not communicating clearly when she may very well not have known the other kid was on the spectrum and her rejection was likely very obvious to someone with neurotypical abilities at reading social cues? People give soft no's all the time in the world and that's assuming it was soft no/excuse instead of just trying to be sweet about it. Also rejecting guys can be stressful at the best of times. When they show up with conspicuously romantic flowers at your place of work, where you can't escape without shirking your job and are in public so you look like a bitch and/or a jerk for publicly humiliating him by rejecting him is even worse. Following that with being humiliated by the guy's mother at your place of work where people you respect can see you and you can't get away? Teenage me would be hiding beneath a damp river rock for the next decade. I'd also be strongly worried that if he told his mother about the details of it he might also tell his friends who would harass me further and/or he's feeling resentful in which case he might lash out at me.

In any case, I think it is a bit over-dramatic to say she was put in a "super-awkward position" was "publicly embarrassed" and that David "got away with it". I mean, someone she didn't like gave her flowers in the library. Rejecting suitors (or being rejected by them) is a pretty ordinary and frequent occurrence in teenage life. It may feel a bit awkward and embarrassing to have to say "hey, I'm not interested in you", but it happens. For Irene, even if it was a bit awkward it was probably good preparation for adult life when she will likely again have to turn people down from time to time.

All in all, other than the mother's involvement, it strikes me as a bit of a storm in a tea cup. David asked Irene out, she didn't want to go and the message was not conveyed clearly (whoever's fault that was). He asked again (with flowers) and she gave a very clear no - and as far as we know David has accepted that and not approached her again. It is only the mother's involvement (which strikes me as bizarre - so I wonder if there's more to that story) which makes this any different to the many instances of unrequited love/like/lust in most teenager's lives.

So it should be normal for guys she's already turned down once to publicly pressure her into dating them while she's supposed to be working and can't avoid them, put her in incredibly awkward situations turning them down publicly and then gossip about her and she should just get used to this?

[Liquor Box]

Dude really? Difficulty reading social cues is one of the biggest symptoms of autism

Why are you blaming the Irene for not communicating clearly when she may very well not have known the other kid was on the spectrum and her rejection was likely very obvious to someone with neurotypical abilities at reading social cues? People give soft no's all the time in the world and that's assuming it was soft no/excuse instead of just trying to be sweet about it. Also rejecting guys can be stressful at the best of times. When they show up with conspicuously romantic flowers at your place of work, where you can't escape without shirking your job and are in public so you look like a bitch and/or a jerk for publicly humiliating him by rejecting him is even worse. Following that with being humiliated by the guy's mother at your place of work where people you respect can see you and you can't get away? Teenage me would be hiding beneath a damp river rock for the next decade. I'd also be strongly worried that if he told his mother about the details of it he might also tell his friends who would harass me further and/or he's feeling resentful in which case he might lash out at me.

First, please don't say that I am blaming Irene, when I specifically said in the post you quoted that I didn't blame anyone - it was just a miscommunication.

Yes, I acknowledged in the post you quoted that difficulty reading social ques is a well-known symptom of autism. But that should not lead to an assumption that every occasion where an autistic person is involved in a miscommunication that it is the autistic person's fault. I think you will also acknowledge that there are many occasions where similar miss-communications arise between non-autistic people.

That is particularly so when Irene's own account of what happened (relayed to us through Valaryon) suggests (at least in my opinion) that her initial rejection was unclear. It was simply a miss-communication - if it is really important (I don't actually think it is) to get to the root of who caused the miss-communication, then I think there was as much chance that it was Irene as David.

You say there's no escape when he gave her flowers? How about "I'm not interested in a relationship with you" - we don't have to speculate as to whether that would have been effective - it's what she did (told him more bluntly is how Valaryon put it) and as far as we know it worked (at least with David). We also don't have to speculate as to whether people saw her as shirking her work or saw her as a bitch/jerk - Valaryon's post makes it clear that didn't happen. The mother thing hadn't happened at that stage.

Why are we so determined to assign blame on David, and teach him a lesson here, when we only have surface details of what happened, and those don't demonstrate who was at fault (if anyone)?

So it should be normal for guys she's already turned down once to publicly pressure her into dating them while she's supposed to be working and can't avoid them, put her in incredibly awkward situations turning them down publicly and then gossip about her and she should just get used to this?

No, if they have been turned down clearly once, they should not continue their advances. If they have received an ambiguous answer the first time (or an answer they thought ambiguous) they should indeed clarify. Ideally not in a public place - but I think we are guessing here that there was an audience. It may have just as easily been done discreetly in a relatively quiet corner of the library. Anyway for teenagers public ask-outs (at the public school for instance) are pretty common-place.

Again, why so keen to find a crime here?

[Recherché]

First, please don't say that I am blaming Irene, when I specifically said in the post you quoted that I didn't blame anyone - it was just a miscommunication.

I'm sorry but this sounds extremely blamey to me.

Maybe. But just as likely (more likely I think for the reasons above) there simply wasn't a clear message the first time.

Especially given how often women just aren't believed about their experiences with harassment or for that matter other lived experiences.

You say there's no escape when he gave her flowers? How about "I'm not interested in a relationship with you" - we don't have to speculate as to whether that would have been effective - it's what she did (told him more bluntly is how Valaryon put it) and as far as we know it worked (at least with David). We also don't have to speculate as to whether people saw her as shirking her work or saw her as a bitch/jerk - Valaryon's post makes it clear that didn't happen. The mother thing hadn't happened at that stage.

Telling someone that you're not interested in them isn't an escape and it doesn't actually stop them from continuing. Physically getting away from them does. If this is the second time I've had to turn someone down, you can bet I'm going to want to get away and not be in a position where they could harass me especially if I have no way to make them stop. Its made even worse by the fact that being harsh with customers and yelling at them to leave you alone is often a fire-able offense even if the customer started it. Even without the mother incident I'd probably be avoiding the guy when possible at this point.

Why are we so determined to assign blame on David, and teach him a lesson here, when we only have surface details of what happened, and those don't demonstrate who was at fault (if anyone)?



No, if they have been turned down clearly once, they should not continue their advances. If they have received an ambiguous answer the first time (or an answer they thought ambiguous) they should indeed clarify. Ideally not in a public place - but I think we are guessing here that there was an audience. It may have just as easily been done discreetly in a relatively quiet corner of the library. Anyway for teenagers public ask-outs (at the public school for instance) are pretty common-place.

Again, why so keen to find a crime here?

Quick hit first but I assume this happened at least somewhat publicly because Velaryon knew what happened in fairly good detail and that either requires it having been somewhat public or one of the two people gossiping about it extensively which feels somewhat unlikely but is possible.

I don't believe that David intended to commit any crime or hurt someone but he did cause serious mental stress to the woman whether or not he intended it. I just get frustrated when everyone is concerned defending the man instead of any empathy with the woman. If Irene was another man would you tell her to suck it up and get used to this? That it's good preparation for getting hit on at work by suitors who won't go away and who send their mothers to insult you in front of your coworkers? Are you used to it or would feel hurt and want to avoid the guy?

[Liquor Box]

I'm sorry but this sounds extremely blamey to me.

No apology needed, it's easy to skim and get the wrong impression

Especially given how often women just aren't believed about their experiences with harassment or for that matter other lived experiences.

This is not such an occasion. I am not disbelieving Irene. I'm saying that even her own account of what happened (again, Valaryon's relay of it) does not suggest harassment. Irene's account does not say she clearly told David she wasn't interested and he pursued anyway. Even if we believe every word that Irene has said (and I do) all it says is that there was a miscommunication the first time (not clear whose fault) but when Irene was clear the second time things came to an end.

On the contrary, it seems to me that you are prepared to make some assumptions (things that Irene did not say) to enhance the woman's story into something you can label harassment.

I feel that there may be an assumption as to my gender in your post - I choose not to reveal my gender on this board, and I ask that you not make an assumption.

Telling someone that you're not interested in them isn't an escape and it doesn't actually stop them from continuing. Physically getting away from them does. If this is the second time I've had to turn someone down, you can bet I'm going to want to get away and not be in a position where they could harass me especially if I have no way to make them stop. Its made even worse by the fact that being harsh with customers and yelling at them to leave you alone is often a fire-able offense even if the customer started it. Even without the mother incident I'd probably be avoiding the guy when possible at this point.

Well it did 'actually stop them from continuing' as far as we know.

It may not be an escape in the way you use the word, but it is better than escaping by simply avoiding the person. If Irene avoided David and David did not know she was avoiding him (and he may well not), then it would be completely reasonable for him to try again later. It is the escaping that would not stop them from continuing and the unambiguous message which did.

Who said anything about being harsh or yelling at customers? All that needs to be said is "I am not interested in you romantically" or words to that effect, which is not a fire-able offence in any jurisdiction I am aware of. Certainly we know Irene was not fired for putting it bluntly.

Quick hit first but I assume this happened at least somewhat publicly because Velaryon knew what happened in fairly good detail and that either requires it having been somewhat public or one of the two people gossiping about it extensively which feels somewhat unlikely but is possible.

No, Vaalryon actually says "I was not present for any of this and only learned of it a couple months after the fact", so he was told by someone
(possibly Irene) and he was not a witness.

I don't think it would be gossiping for Irene to confide in someone - either Valaryon or someone who then told Valaryon. Irene may have only mentioned it after the incident with the mother (which was clearly public).

Also, I don't know that he knows what happened "in fairly good detail", all he said about the topic is "showed up to the library one day with flowers for her. She was forced to tell him more bluntly that she wasn't interested"

I don't believe that David intended to commit any crime or hurt someone but he did cause serious mental stress to the woman whether or not he intended it. I just get frustrated when everyone is concerned defending the man instead of any empathy with the woman. If Irene was another man would you tell her to suck it up and get used to this? That it's good preparation for getting hit on at work by suitors who won't go away and who send their mothers to insult you in front of your coworkers? Are you used to it or would feel hurt and want to avoid the guy?

Again, you have no basis to say that he caused her "serious mental stress".

First, for the reasons we discussed, it is not at all clear that David was the cause of the miss-communication. Nothing that we have been told that Irene said indicates that he was.

Second, even if David did cause the miss-communication and he should not have presented her with flowers, there is no reason to assume she suffered "serious mental distress" from that. Nothing Valaryon says indicates serious mental stress afterward (he didn't even know about it for months). If there was mental stress, it was far more likely to have been caused by the mother.

Third, your paragraph implies that we should be concerned with empathising with Irene simply because she is female. I disagree - we should not default to supporting either party because of their gender. If we are called on to take sides at all, we should try to make a gender-neutral assessment of what happened.

Fourth, nobody has suggested Irene suck it up. The only suggestion is that she clearly tell the suitor that she is not interested. I think every single person who has commented would agree that if continues his pursuit after a clear message, then he is doing something wrong.

Fifth, there is no reason to assume David sent his mother. That is just another assumption on your part, not suggested by anything Irene has said. I think it far more likely that she did that on her own initiative - I would be mortified if my mother told off someone who had turned me down, wouldn't you?

Again, why are you so keen to assign blame for something that was clearly a miss-understanding (not clear whose fault)?

[Crow]

I want to know what OP's real interest in this is.

Something doesn't feel right.

But carry on. Very interesting reading.

[Liquor Box]

I want to know what OP's real interest in this is.

Something doesn't feel right.

But carry on. Very interesting reading.

One thing that doesn't feel right is the mother's reaction. I didn't pick up on the age difference on first read, but War_Lord points out that David is 13 and Irene is 17 which makes the mother's reaction even more crazy - I mean the age difference alone would be a good reason for Irene not to be interested (if she needed one), so why the angst from the mother?

I know that's not what you mean though, and I think I know what you are getting at.

[Anonymouswizard]

Okay, what has to be understood here is that what a neurotypical seventeen year old girl considers very clearly rejecting someone, but doing it gently, is totally incomprehensible to a poorly socialised Autistic thirteen year old. He very likely didn't understand what she was saying, not because she was unclear by normal standards, but because whatever she said likely involved social conventions he can't understand (Such as "lets just be friends" really meaning "I'd never date you"). I can't blame her for that, because she probably doesn't have the in depth knowledge of Autism to understand the level of bluntness required.

This.

It's entirely possible her account of 'it was unclear' comes from the fact it happened again. She actually did exactly the right thing in clarifying once she knew that the statement had not been clear. From the sounds of it Irene is not from his normal social circle, which means that even if she has a basic understanding of autism she is unlikely to know exactly what David's quirks are, which means that the correct action if her response was unclear would be to clarify, which she did.

Now we should admit yet yes, it's entirely possible that in the neurotypical world Irene's message would have been 100% clear and David has stepped over the line, but the actions were from ignorance instead of malice. The difference is big, as ignorance can be worked around and cured with effort.

Also didn't realise you were also on the spectrum War_lord, but I suppose we're a bit overrepresented on internet boards.

One thing that doesn't feel right is the mother's reaction. I didn't pick up on the age difference on first read, but War_Lord points out that David is 13 and Irene is 17 which makes the mother's reaction even more crazy - I mean the age difference alone would be a good reason for Irene not to be interested (if she needed one), so why the angst from the mother?

On the mother angle, as an autistic person and having seen the effort my parents have gone through, raising an autistic kid is hard. We're quick to grasp some things and slow to grasp others, unlikely to have much interest in things that aren't our special interests (heck, one of mine is the entire reason I post on this forum), have a lack of awareness in social situations, express imagination differently (much more noticeable when we're young), have sensory issues, and vary enough that advice for one autistic kid is useless for another.

I mean not wanting to touch people is a classic autistic symptom, but I flip between not wanting to touch and wanting to touch all the time depending on the person I'm with (but, being British, I tend not to touch my friends because I know it's considered weird here).

In such situations it can be hard to tell the difference between helping somebody and being overprotective. I can understand why his mum might have done it, nobody wants to see their children hurt and us autistic people can show our emotions strongly. But especially in this instance it's an important thing for autistic people to learn, being rejected can feel terrible but you have to pick yourself on and move on (the same with breakups, I think I'm better now, although not ready to date again).


I'll also note that a friend of mine thinks my relationship had a communication problem. I didn't mention to her how much I'd want to touch, she didn't mention to me that she has problems with it, and this all only came out when she decided to break up with me. I'm going to try to be much more up front and honest next time.

[Iruka]

Again, you have no basis to say that he caused her "serious mental stress".

in my opinion, leavin a meeting at her job to avoid him is an indication of "serious mental stress".

I want to know what OP's real interest in this is.

Something doesn't feel right.

But carry on. Very interesting reading.

There is some kind of conflict in a group the OP is responsible for and he is unsure how to handle it. What doe not feel right to you?

[Liquor Box]

in my opinion, leavin a meeting at her job to avoid him is an indication of "serious mental stress".

Perhaps, but far more likely to have been caused by the mother's actions than David's don't you think?

Also, it may not be an important point, but I don't think the meeting is part of her job - it just so happens that she both works at the library and attends the teen library group meetings.

[Liquor Box]

On the mother angle, as an autistic person and having seen the effort my parents have gone through, raising an autistic kid is hard. We're quick to grasp some things and slow to grasp others, unlikely to have much interest in things that aren't our special interests (heck, one of mine is the entire reason I post on this forum), have a lack of awareness in social situations, express imagination differently (much more noticeable when we're young), have sensory issues, and vary enough that advice for one autistic kid is useless for another.

I mean not wanting to touch people is a classic autistic symptom, but I flip between not wanting to touch and wanting to touch all the time depending on the person I'm with (but, being British, I tend not to touch my friends because I know it's considered weird here).

In such situations it can be hard to tell the difference between helping somebody and being overprotective. I can understand why his mum might have done it, nobody wants to see their children hurt and us autistic people can show our emotions strongly. But especially in this instance it's an important thing for autistic people to learn, being rejected can feel terrible but you have to pick yourself on and move on (the same with breakups, I think I'm better now, although not ready to date again).

I accept all of that. And if it was just her having a go at Irene for rejecting her son, it's almost plausible that an overwrought overprotective mother might have done that. But to have a go at Irene the 17 year old for rejecting sexual interest from a 13 year old comes pretty close to crossing the plausibility line for me.

I mean Valaryon quotes her saying ""Why isn't my son good enough for you?" kind of thing", but an obvious answer is that Irene could go to jail for having sex with him (assuming the age of consent is 16 and statutory rape provisions apply to females where Valaryon lives). I find it very hard to understand how a sane mother (even with all the difficulties and pressures you describe) could be so angry with a 17 year old for not wanting sex with her 13 year old.

I suppose there are plausible explanations - maybe Irene was much meaner to David the second time than came through in the OP's post, perhaps she wasn't but an upset David fibbed to his mother and said she was mean. It seems to me that there must be something more to the story for her to react like that.

[Florian]

I want to know what OP's real interest in this is.

Something doesn't feel right.

But carry on. Very interesting reading.

Well, fresh at a job that deals with teens on a regular basis, it´s good to expect drama of some kind and learn how to handle that, when you'll have to handle it. Its prudent to learn the work place regulation on this, know the legal matters involved and train some mediation techniques. A librarian is not so different from a teacher in this case.

[Anonymouswizard]

I accept all of that. And if it was just her having a go at Irene for rejecting her son, it's almost plausible that an overwrought overprotective mother might have done that. But to have a go at Irene the 17 year old for rejecting sexual interest from a 13 year old comes pretty close to crossing the plausibility line for me.

I mean Valaryon quotes her saying ""Why isn't my son good enough for you?" kind of thing", but an obvious answer is that Irene could go to jail for having sex with him (assuming the age of consent is 16 and statutory rape provisions apply to females where Valaryon lives). I find it very hard to understand how a sane mother (even with all the difficulties and pressures you describe) could be so angry with a 17 year old for not wanting sex with her 13 year old.

I suppose there are plausible explanations - maybe Irene was much meaner to David the second time than came through in the OP's post, perhaps she wasn't but an upset David fibbed to his mother and said she was mean. It seems to me that there must be something more to the story for her to react like that.

Sure, I never tried to claim her actions were reasonable (although I somehow managed to skim the post which stated the ages I knew of them when making my comment). She had a massive overreaction, but it's important to note that said overreaction likely came from an understandable place.

For the record my post was unclear, so to clarify, it's hard to tell the difference from the parent's perspective. As outside observers we can clearly see that she went too far, but somebody invested in David's well being that much might have only seen that their baby was hurt.

[dehro]

I believe there have been interactions between David and Irene that we, and the OP, are unaware of.
These might have altered the "facts" we know considerably.
That said, yes to alerting every person of authority that has a say in this, or a responsibility towards the situation, yes to trying to get the full picture, yes to making sure the relevant people take what actions they deem appropriate and not brush this thing aside. No to taking direct action, especially not with the mother, or with either of the kids (the latter at least until you have a full picture of the situation). Check what actions you can take with your superior.
Let's not start sowing panic: there's no indication so far that any of the parties involved might get violent, so let's not pull out any bazookas yet, shall we? Talking about security on the workplace straight out of the gates seems a bit of an extreme reaction, one more likely to escalate things than it is to solve them

[Cozzer]

The Internet: overthinking everything since [insert date we're probably going to overthink about here]. I mean, it's not a tragedy, it's one mildly unpleasant situation out of infinity that happen everyday in every workplace.

Ok, forgive me the flippant tone. I'm not dismissing any previous argument, I just want to reassure the OP that the whole thing is still an ordinary unpleasant situation, he doesn't have to (and, in my personal opinion, shouldn't) do anything unless things get worse and can carry on with his business without any guilt.

[Anymage]

in my opinion, leavin a meeting at her job to avoid him is an indication of "serious mental stress".

On the one hand, seeing someone who was in some way connected with a mortifying event could indeed cause "serious mental stress". Even if, as many here are positing, David didn't personally do anything too wrong and it was just his overprotective mother making an embarrassing scene.

On the other hand, Irene isn't here. Velaryon is. There isn't much our sympathy can do for a person who isn't present. The question, then, is what concrete actions can be taken about these teen meetings. Barring further information and given that David absented himself from the library for quite a long while (quite likely mortified over his mother's actions himself), I wonder what actions you'd want to see Velaryon take. And if they happen to involve kicking out David, what justification you'd give knowing only what has been said in this thread.

[Iruka]

On the one hand, seeing someone who was in some way connected with a mortifying event could indeed cause "serious mental stress". Even if, as many here are positing, David didn't personally do anything too wrong and it was just his overprotective mother making an embarrassing scene.

On the other hand, Irene isn't here. Velaryon is. There isn't much our sympathy can do for a person who isn't present. The question, then, is what concrete actions can be taken about these teen meetings. Barring further information and given that David absented himself from the library for quite a long while (quite likely mortified over his mother's actions himself), I wonder what actions you'd want to see Velaryon take. And if they happen to involve kicking out David, what justification you'd give knowing only what has been said in this thread.

Based on the current information, there is absolutely no reason to kick David out. Besides getting an opinion from other people in management, like Velaryon already proposed, I think talking to Irene would be the right move. Why exactly did she not feel comfortable being in the same room with David?

[ve4grm]

The Internet: overthinking everything since [insert date we're probably going to overthink about here]. I mean, it's not a tragedy, it's one mildly unpleasant situation out of infinity that happen everyday in every workplace.

Ok, forgive me the flippant tone. I'm not dismissing any previous argument, I just want to reassure the OP that the whole thing is still an ordinary unpleasant situation, he doesn't have to (and, in my personal opinion, shouldn't) do anything unless things get worse and can carry on with his business without any guilt.

Ah, the internet.

In all seriousness, I think a bunch of us are talking past each other, and we may want to take a step back and breathe for a minute. Nobody is wanting to punish David, unless he's done something far beyond what the known story is.

[Velaryon]

Holy moly, this discussion took off like a rocket. At this point I'm worried that I'm hijacking the thread. Moderators, should I remove this to its own separate topic?

Thank you everyone who has responded so far and respond afterward. I apologize that I can't reply to everyone individually, as I don't think I can cram that many quotes into one post.

I believe it has been stated, but I was not present for the incident. What I know comes from a description of events by Irene, and more detailed description from coworkers in her department who witnessed the event and spoke with David's mother after her inappropriate outburst.

As of Monday, I've spoken to my supervisor (who is also acting director for the entire library until we finish our hiring process), Irene's supervisor, and my predecessor in my position who has known both parties longer than me. They were all aware of the initial incident, so the only new information is that Irene is still uncomfortable enough that she left the room when David came to the TAB meeting. I have not yet had the opportunity to speak with Irene, but am hoping to do so tomorrow when she has her next scheduled shift.

Also, David is 15, not 13. I'm not sure how I conveyed his age incorrectly, but I apologize for any confusion. He has also been home schooled for a long time, though in the last couple months he has transitioned to public high school.

That said, it could be useful to talk with him after everything settles down, anyways. Not to punish him or anything, but to make sure he understands what's wrong with what happened, and maybe help him not make that mistake in the future. It certainly doesn't seem like his mom is going to be helpful in that regard. But I would only do that if I was in a mentor role with David, which Velaryon may or may not be. (It doesn't quite sound like it, but as Teen Librarian maybe it is?)

If the information I have is the full story (and I'm hoping to find out one way or the other from Irene soon), then I don't believe punitive action is appropriate. What I would like to know from David is what happened from his perspective, whether he was aware of his mother's subsequent actions, and whether there has been anything further between him and Irene since then. He has expressed liking and trust toward me, though I'm not sure it has advanced to the point where it could be considered a mentor role. If he would like that from me, I am willing to do what I can.

With regard to TAB running smoothly in the future, we break during the summer so there is only about 3 more months before Irene ages out. The question is what to do in the meantime, and I have not arrived at a conclusion there yet.

Seeing as you work for a public library you're probably used to dealing with potentially dangerous people (or maybe your in a small town or Canada?), but "David's" mom sounds like she could be dangerous to your career (accusations, etc.) if not at right a physical danger.

Tread carefully.

She has never seemed dangerous in the past, and it was a shock to not only me but to everyone that she did that. Nonetheless, thank you for the warning. I am taking it to heart.

Quick hit first but I assume this happened at least somewhat publicly because Velaryon knew what happened in fairly good detail and that either requires it having been somewhat public or one of the two people gossiping about it extensively which feels somewhat unlikely but is possible.

I don't believe that David intended to commit any crime or hurt someone but he did cause serious mental stress to the woman whether or not he intended it. I just get frustrated when everyone is concerned defending the man instead of any empathy with the woman. If Irene was another man would you tell her to suck it up and get used to this? That it's good preparation for getting hit on at work by suitors who won't go away and who send their mothers to insult you in front of your coworkers? Are you used to it or would feel hurt and want to avoid the guy?

What I know a combination of Irene's brief description of it to me sometime after the fact, and a subsequent inquiry to coworkers in her department. My understanding is that the second time he asked was in public (unsure about the first). When David's mother approached her, Irene was shelving audiobooks in the stacks. It's likely that no one else was in the immediate vicinity, but other library patrons may have been close enough to overhear, I don't know.

Without more detail, it's unclear that anything resembling a crime has been committed at all. The description of events I was given sounds like a typical teen rejection scenario complicated by an autistic boy not understanding the rejection, and the mother verbally accosting the teenage girl afterward. At the time I became aware of it, it was treated as a single uncomfortable incident that was considered over and done with. Until I speak further with Irene which I have not yet had opportunity to do, the only reason I have to think this is not still the case is that she was uncomfortable enough to leave immediately when he showed up to last week's TAB meeting. That in itself is still not a solid indication that harassment occurred, but I do believe it's at least cause enough to be concerned and look further into the situation, hence the looking for advice on what I should do. Right now, what I know doesn't justify any kind of punitive action but I am concerned enough that I want to make sure that there isn't more to the story. Even if there is not, clearly the minimum that I need to do is discuss with Irene whether there is anything I or the library can do to ensure her safety in the workplace.

I want to know what OP's real interest in this is.

Something doesn't feel right.

But carry on. Very interesting reading.

I'm curious what you mean. The information I'm working with is a combination of second- and third-hand descriptions of something I was not present for, and is unquestionably an incomplete accounting of events, but I've relayed what I know as honestly as I am able.

Based on the current information, there is absolutely no reason to kick David out. Besides getting an opinion from other people in management, like Velaryon already proposed, I think talking to Irene would be the right move. Why exactly did she not feel comfortable being in the same room with David?

That's what I intend to find out. If it's simple awkwardness and dislike of someone who inadvertently put her in an embarrassing situation, there may be nothing I can do. If it's fear of continued harassment, or if there has in fact been more happening since this incident, then I want to figure out what has happened so that I can figure out what I can and should do about it.

[Florian]

On the one hand, seeing someone who was in some way connected with a mortifying event could indeed cause "serious mental stress". Even if, as many here are positing, David didn't personally do anything too wrong and it was just his overprotective mother making an embarrassing scene.

On the other hand, Irene isn't here. Velaryon is. There isn't much our sympathy can do for a person who isn't present. The question, then, is what concrete actions can be taken about these teen meetings. Barring further information and given that David absented himself from the library for quite a long while (quite likely mortified over his mother's actions himself), I wonder what actions you'd want to see Velaryon take. And if they happen to involve kicking out David, what justification you'd give knowing only what has been said in this thread.

The first question is, what action he has to take and which to refrain from taking, based on job description and contract, rules of the house and legal matters.
(Example: Where I live, everyone working for one of the public services is bound to a certain code of conduct as part of the job contract, even someone like Irene doing just a part-time job. Every public space does with a set of rules that you agree to when entering that space. Here, David would be a bit in trouble because gifting anything to someone in the current employ of one of the public services, even just flowers, will get you in trouble. His mothers action would be seen as against a public service employee, not Irene as a person, triggering a different sort of response)

Personally, I don't really think that Velaryon is in a position or has the duty to take any kind of action.
Being in charge of the TAB is not the same as being responsible for the teens that come to the TAB meetings. If A leaves when B comes, than that's just so, no big deal. It´s no active disruption of the TAB, so no reason to step in.
Still a good chance to learn and hone some mediation skills for when you need them, being the adult in the room and all that.

Davids mum is still the one responsible for David. It´s out of line to talk to the boy about the issue, even if its well meaning, without consent of the mum to actually do so.

[ve4grm]

Davids mum is still the one responsible for David. It´s out of line to talk to the boy about the issue, even if its well meaning, without consent of the mum to actually do so.

This is a good point, too. As David is a minor, and not a coworker like Irene, approaching him directly is tricky. Again I'll recommend following the lead of the director for how to handle things.

[Heliomance]

Does anyone have any tips for dealing with that feeling of helplessness when trying to support a friend with mental health issues? One of my closest friends, someone that I love dearly, has a brain that is frequently very unpleasant to her. I feel so useless when I see her suffering and can't do anything to stop it. I know that feeling isn't useful, and achieves nothing, so I'd quite like to stop it before it contributes to me doing something stupid and accidentally making things worse at a bad time.

[Liquor Box]

Also, David is 15, not 13. I'm not sure how I conveyed his age incorrectly, but I apologize for any confusion. He has also been home schooled for a long time, though in the last couple months he has transitioned to public high school.

War_Lord in post #845 said that Irene was 17 and David 13. I presume he got that from you saying Irene is a senior and David a freshman. I am not particularly familiar with those terms (they are not used in education where I come from) so assumed Warlord was correct - apologies if I got it wrong.

Even if there is not, clearly the minimum that I need to do is discuss with Irene whether there is anything I or the library can do to ensure her safety in the workplace.

I actually think that is the maximum you can (or at least should) do.

I actually don't even think you should do that - it is Irene's manager's role to assist her if she is unsafe at work, not yours. From a legal perspective having you (as a co-worker) talk to her about her safety is unlikely to satisfy any duty on the library to ensure her safety because you are not her manager.

If you do decide to talk to her, I suggest you don't treat it as an investigation where you have to get to the bottom of things and make a decision (really, what decision is there for you to make?), but rather let her know that you are happy to chat if SHE decides she wants your support.

I also agree with Florian and Ve4grm above about you talking to David. If you do talk to David and suggest that he did something wrong, or made a mistake, or that he should act differently in the future, it is very likely that the mother will be telling you off next time (and on the basis of what you know so far, she would be justified in doing so, because it appears David did nothing wrong).

[War_lord]

(and on the basis of what you know so far, she would be justified in doing so, because it appears David did nothing wrong).

He did do something wrong, he harassed a women with public and unwanted romantic advances. His condition absolves him to a large degree, but I'm getting somewhat tired of you claiming what he did wasn't a wrong from a general perspective.

[Liquor Box]

He did do something wrong, he harassed a women with public and unwanted romantic advances. His condition absolves him to a large degree, but I'm getting somewhat tired of you claiming what he did wasn't a wrong from a general perspective.

As I have explained to you earlier (without reply - see post 846), on the basis of what we know so far, he did not do that. He made an advance on someone who he did not know wasn't interested (quite likely because she had not clearly told him she wasn't interested) and then stopped once she did make it clear that she wasn't interested. It's not a matter of his condition absolving him, because it appears there is no wrongdoing for him to be absolved of.

Also worth mentioning that I am not the only one who thinks David did nothing wrong (see for example Chen, Glassmouse, and Anymage who have been quite explicit about this). Several others have also said the same. I think the people who think that David did do something wrong are making assumptions that are simply not available on the account of the facts we have here.