Elves take 4 hr long rests now (change to sage advice)

[Tanarii]

I just noticed Sage Advice has changed the way Elf trance works to have it shorten a Long Rest. Not sure when it changed, and the why isn't clear to me.

http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/do...Compendium.pdf
Does the Trance trait allow an elf to finish a long rest in 4 hours? If an elf meditates during a long rest (as described in the Trance trait), the elf finishes the rest after only 4 hours. A meditating elf otherwise follows all the rules for
a long rest; only the duration is changed. [This answer
has been altered as a result of a tweak to the rules for a long rest, which appears in newer printings of the Player’s Handbook.]

Not sure what the newer printing tweak this refers to is exactly. Because the only thing in the errata is adding a minimum of 1 HD gained, which doesn't seem relevant. Anyone got any ideas why this changed?

Edit: I just compared the basic rules PDFs I have (v0.3) to my 1st print PHB, and the only differences for long rests are indeed the minimum of 1 HD.

Edit (found where this is coming from, see my post 22 below):

Spoiler: long rests now require sleeping

Show

New long rest rule, PHB 6th printing:
A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps for at least 6 hours and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity, such as reading, talking, eating, or standing watch.

The problem is I wasn't looking at the most recent errata, and it's not in the players basic rules yet. /Doh
http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/do.../PH-Errata.pdf

[Easy_Lee]

IIRC, the eight hour thing specifically applied to casters. An elf fighter could long rest in four hours, but casters still took eight to get their spell slots back. Do casters now get their slots back in four? Depending on the campaign, that could be significant - druids can hold wildshape for four hours much earlier than they can hold it for eight.

[Tanarii]

You get spell slots back for finishing a long rest PHB 201. So elves also recharge them in 4 hrs now.

[Tanarii]

As a side note, the reason this one really jumped out at me is I only just told an Elf player that Trance didn't reduce the time of the Long Rest. And two players at the table were like "are you sure?" I even told one of them he was welcome to go to a forum and have a ten page argument about it if he liked. Response: "I'd rather die."

[Easy_Lee]

As a side note, the reason this one really jumped out at me is I only just told an Elf player that Trance didn't reduce the time of the Long Rest. And two players at the table were like "are you sure?" I even told one of them he was welcome to go to a forum and have a ten page argument about it if he liked. Response: "I'd rather die."

Oh come on, arguing with me and/or DBZ isn't that bad... (sarcasm, yes it is).

Still, this is a good change. What's the point of trance if it barely has mechanical benefit?

Now, let's abuse it.

First idea: a level 8 elf druid can wildshape into a suitable creature (get in a hole or hide in plain sight) and enter his trance. He has exactly long enough to complete the trance before reverting, getting his spell slots and wildshape back. And good luck to any DMs who want to reasonably stop him.

[Keltest]

Oh come on, arguing with me and/or DBZ isn't that bad... (sarcasm, yes it is).

Still, this is a good change. What's the point of trance if it barely has mechanical benefit?

Now, let's abuse it.

First idea: a level 8 elf druid can wildshape into a suitable creature (get in a hole or hide in plain sight) and enter his trance. He has exactly long enough to complete the trance before reverting, getting his spell slots and wildshape back. And good luck to any DMs who want to reasonably stop him.

I think this begs the question, What then? Is this just something to let a druid hide while they rest?

[Tanarii]

Oh come on, arguing with me and/or DBZ isn't that bad... (sarcasm, yes it is).

I haven't killed any of us three yet, so clearly we're a different breed. Not necessarily a better one, or course.

Now, let's abuse it.

In this case, the Elf Druid wanted to long rest first (4 hrs) then stand guard while th rest of the party long rested. They were in a dangerous area, and we're very worried about a night attack. I didn't consider it an abuse though, I was just trying to establish the rule in case it became an issue later.

I know what I'd use it for: Elf Rogue or Ranger, solo scouting. 4hr to scout the general location ahead, Keeping within a reasonable likelihood of not getting my ass killed. ie not deep stuff, just checking out the general area. (Not extensive in-game stuff in other words. That's not fair to the other players.)

Also, of course, handing my DM 'your scout hasn't returned yet, what do you do?' plot hooks when I inevitably get captured. Again.

Edit: I thought wildshape lasted exactly 1 hr?
Edit2: doh. Fail at memorizing abilities.

[RSP]

I noticed this change as well and didn't see what the specific change was that allowed the shortening of rests for Elves. The intent seems to be that a Long Rest is tied to sleeping in some way, which could effect other abilities.

[Alerad]

I've already been using similar rules, letting elves take two watches instead of one when the party is camping. So far the players are happy with this mechanic.

I like the trait, so far as it doesn't get abused. If an elf gets up four hours earlier and expects me to DM solo adventures while the party is sleeping I might need it. I can imagine this becoming a problem at some tables.

[Pex]

Oh come on, arguing with me and/or DBZ isn't that bad... (sarcasm, yes it is).

It's me he's afraid of.

[Vaz]

As a side note, the reason this one really jumped out at me is I only just told an Elf player that Trance didn't reduce the time of the Long Rest. And two players at the table were like "are you sure?" I even told one of them he was welcome to go to a forum and have a ten page argument about it if he liked. Response: "I'd rather die."

The people participating in the 30 page ones would like to know where these exist

[SharkForce]

has some potentially interesting implications for prepared spell classes if they also have a scout that can afford to take a half rest (say, a familiar or an elven rogue or monk, or an elven warlock with at-will arcane eye). the scout does a 4-hour scouting trip, comes back with information about what's ahead, and the prepared spellcaster prepares an optimized set of spells for the day.

[PhantomSoul]

One nice benefit is that casting a high-level 8-hour spell (I'm looking at you, Foresight) leaves you with 4 hours of benefit... after regaining the slot!

[MeeposFire]

One thing to remember is that regardless of whether it takes 4 or 8 hours you can still only take 1 long rest every 24 hours.

[8wGremlin]

Does this now screw over the CoffeeLock builds?

[lperkins2]

No, no effect on 'coffee locks', nor on warforged. It says an elf, who trances, specifically. It doesn't change waking-rest from 8 to four hours for elves either. (Long rest doesn't specifically say it requires sleep).

[RSP]

No, no effect on 'coffee locks', nor on warforged. It says an elf, who trances, specifically. It doesn't change waking-rest from 8 to four hours for elves either. (Long rest doesn't specifically say it requires sleep).

Well it's tough to really say that as all we have is an SA ruling stating a change to the long rest rules allows Trance to be 4 hours. Without seeing the actual change to the rule, it's impossible to say what else may have changed. As the OP stated, whatever the change is hasn't been posted on available errata. just because SA specifies Trance as being impacted by the change, it doesn't mean other abilities aren't also effected.

If anyone has a newer PHB with the new wording, that might help.

[Personification]

I think this begs the question, What then? Is this just something to let a druid hide while they rest?

This has nothing to do with anything really, just a pet peeve, but hey, I am a pedant among pedants anyway. To "beg the question" means to be tautological, not to raise a question.

[SharkForce]

No, no effect on 'coffee locks', nor on warforged. It says an elf, who trances, specifically. It doesn't change waking-rest from 8 to four hours for elves either. (Long rest doesn't specifically say it requires sleep).

actually, it probably does change sorclock in at least some ways.

the coffee sorclock build relied on sleeping for 4 hours not counting as resting, because presumably at some point you actually do need to get proper sleep or else you begin to become increasingly incoherent and eventually die, just like in real life (i don't think there's a mechanic for it, but the obvious one is exhaustion after not getting enough sleep, just like if you don't eat or don't drink any water).

previously, they could get away with not taking a long rest, just stockpiling all their created spell slots, because their 4 hours of trance (which was all they needed as far as sleep is concerned) did not count as a long rest, and therefore did not reset their created spell slots.

it might still work with warforged, though. not sure, haven't looked it up in a long while. of course, warforged are also a UA-only race (barring homebrew) at this point, so who knows if it'll work on whatever eventual version they settle on.

[Malifice]

As a side note, the reason this one really jumped out at me is I only just told an Elf player that Trance didn't reduce the time of the Long Rest. And two players at the table were like "are you sure?" I even told one of them he was welcome to go to a forum and have a ten page argument about it if he liked. Response: "I'd rather die."

It never used to. They changed it a few weeks back.

Unless you have a party of Elves it's not really an issue. 99/100 it just lets the elf complete his long rest 4 hours before the rest of the party (meaning it's less likely to be broken by a nightime encounter).

You still only get 1 long rest every 24 hours and as long as the doom clock is ticking, it's no biggie.

[LeonBH]

actually, it probably does change sorclock in at least some ways.

the coffee sorclock build relied on sleeping for 4 hours not counting as resting, because presumably at some point you actually do need to get proper sleep or else you begin to become increasingly incoherent and eventually die, just like in real life (i don't think there's a mechanic for it, but the obvious one is exhaustion after not getting enough sleep, just like if you don't eat or don't drink any water).

previously, they could get away with not taking a long rest, just stockpiling all their created spell slots, because their 4 hours of trance (which was all they needed as far as sleep is concerned) did not count as a long rest, and therefore did not reset their created spell slots.

it might still work with warforged, though. not sure, haven't looked it up in a long while. of course, warforged are also a UA-only race (barring homebrew) at this point, so who knows if it'll work on whatever eventual version they settle on.

Not really, because they can just take the Aspect of the Moon (Xanathar's Guide, not UA), which means they will not need to sleep at all.

[Tanarii]

This has nothing to do with anything really, just a pet peeve, but hey, I am a pedant among pedants anyway. To "beg the question" means to be tautological, not to raise a question.

i approve of pedantic-ness in any thread I begin.

It never used to. They changed it a few weeks back.

Depending on when the change happened, they may have made me wrong right after I told the player that.

Why I'm interested in is why they changed it. I mean, it says why, but the actual supposed small tweak to long rests in future printings doesn't seem to be anywhere I can find.

Hah immediately found it. First post:
http://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-...ayers-handbook

New long rest rule, PHB 6th printing:
A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps for at least 6 hours and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity, such as reading, talking, eating, or standing watch.

Long rests now require sleeping! Hah!

The problem is I wasn't looking at the most recent errata, and it's not in the players basic rules yet. /Doh
http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/do.../PH-Errata.pdf
http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/do.../PH-Errata.pdf

[8wGremlin]

Not really, because they can just take the Aspect of the Moon (Xanathar's Guide, not UA), which means they will not need to sleep at all.

I was thinking that too, but:

1. didn't know if Aspect of the moon had made the cut
2. it takes up a valuable invocation

[SharkForce]

Not really, because they can just take the Aspect of the Moon (Xanathar's Guide, not UA), which means they will not need to sleep at all.

hmmm... well still some change i guess, but not that much.

[Malifice]

i approve of pedantic-ness in any thread I begin.

Depending on when the change happened, they may have made me wrong right after I told the player that.

Why I'm interested in is why they changed it. I mean, it says why, but the actual supposed small tweak to long rests in future printings doesn't seem to be anywhere I can find.

Hah immediately found it. First post:
http://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-...ayers-handbook

New long rest rule, PHB 6th printing:
A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps for at least 6 hours and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity, such as reading, talking, eating, or standing watch.

Long rests now require sleeping! Hah!

The problem is I wasn't looking at the most recent errata, and it's not in the players basic rules yet. /Doh
http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/do.../PH-Errata.pdf
http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/do.../PH-Errata.pdf

Sleeping has been confirmed in XGtE as giving one the unconscious condition as well.

I recall there being some debate about this a while back. Maybe on a different forum, cant recall.

[Tanarii]

Sleeping has been confirmed in XGtE as giving one the unconscious condition as well.

I recall there being some debate about this a while back. Maybe on a different forum, cant recall.

I was on the side that nothing says natural sleep is the unconscious decision condition. And said so at great length over 10+ pages in at least one thread.

Not my day for being retroactively proven wrong.

[Personification]

i approve of pedantic-ness in any thread I begin.

In that case, I believe the term is pedanticism

[Malifice]

I was on the side that nothing says natural sleep is the unconscious decision condition. And said so at great length over 10+ pages in at least one thread.

Not my day for being retroactively proven wrong.

Pretty sure I was arguing it was = unconscious condition.

Certainly how I've always ran it.

[Batou1976]

Any idea of what the implications for the alternate short/long rest rule where a short rest is 8 hrs and a long rest is 1 week?

[Malifice]

Any idea of what the implications for the alternate short/long rest rule where a short rest is 8 hrs and a long rest is 1 week?

A reasonable inference is Elves can short rest by 4 hours of trance in those games, instead of 8 hours of sleep.