Erfworld Thread X: A Series of Unfortunate Cliffhangers

[Rockphed]

Archons explicitly are NOT Warlords. They are Humanoid Knight Class with a special of Flying. They can have Leadership as one of their popped or leveled up abilities but they do not inherently count as a Warlord. They still lack Treasury Sense and any of the other abilities an actual Commander might have. The only thing their Leadership allows them to do is provide a bonus to a unit they lead. Aside from the LIAB Prologue 25 which explains Archons in detail Bonnie's perspective expressly mentions her Leadership Bonus and notes that it's low because she's not actually a Warlord. It also expressly mentions their actual class. Which is Knight. There's also the fact that Charlie has been described as a side without Warlords. Which wouldn't make sense if Archons are Warlords. Because then his side would be nothing BUT Warlords.

Question: can knights be promoted to warlord?

[Divusmors]

Yeah, I do stand corrected on that. The only thing I disagree with primarily is the 'not all archons', when it is never stated it is dependant on foolamancy, and instead stated that archon's in general can spot a veil.

[Razade]

Question: can knights be promoted to warlord?

Any Infantry Unit can be promoted at a Capital Site into a Warlord so long as they're not a Heavy Unit. Except Parson. Knight is maybe an Infantry Class? It's never specified if they count as Infantry. Knights in the real world certainly aren't but who knows how they work in Erfworld.

Yeah, I do stand corrected on that. The only thing I disagree with primarily is the 'not all archons', when it is never stated it is dependant on foolamancy, and instead stated that archon's in general can spot a veil.

Where does it say that? Nowhere I can see. The wiki page (which admittedly is free to be updated by anyone but is currated by Rob on some level) expressly say that only the ones with Foolamancy can see through veils and it's a stated ability by other Foolamancers and units with Foolamancy that they can see through veils.

Occam's Razor dictates that Archons without Foolamancy cannot see through veils.

[Divusmors]

The wiki says increased chances, not 'are the only ones', and I was speaking about the comic, not the wiki.

[DataNinja]

Question: can knights be promoted to warlord?

Probably, but they would likely cease to be Knights at that point: Parson promotes one living GK unit to Warlord, and the others to Knight. I feel if they could be stacked, he would have.

[Razade]

The wiki says increased chances, not 'are the only ones', and I was speaking about the comic, not the wiki.

The wiki compiles information (with links to the source) of the comic. Outside of the Speculation are which...I haven't quoted from. Occam's Razor still applies, especially since we've seen Archons who cannot see through veils.

[Divusmors]

I'm not on the best of devices to search through an entire comic, so if you can give a link of where an archon specifically has no ability to detect a veil, I'd be appreciative. And the part where it says increased chances is not under the speculative section of the wiki.

[Razade]

I'm not on the best of devices to search through an entire comic, so if you can give a link of where an archon specifically has no ability to detect a veil, I'd be appreciative. And the part where it says increased chances is not under the speculative section of the wiki.

There's no part that expressly says they don't but there are parts that expressly say they have Foolamancy or can have Foolamancy and we've only seen Foolamancers and as far as we know Archons with Foolamancy see through veils (and ya know...Commanders but that seems something special about them). The simple answer, the best answer, is that they share an ability with other units that can see through Veils. That ability being Natural Foolamancy.

Also, since you won't link to the section of the wiki you're pulling from or quote it here. I will. Because it doesn't say what you want it to say.

Archons with spellcasting capacities seem to be different from true Casters: their abilities are referred to as being limited in some way.[1] However, they use Juice just like normal casters. They are also possessed of significant tactical and administrative skills. Archons bring powerful combat and support spells to their employers. Some Archons are able to detect the presence of spells that influence Units, including but not limited to Suggestion Spells and Veils; they can also identify what's being Veiled.

That's the full relevant section from the wiki and the bolded part is where you're pulling from. The section behind the semi-colon is still refering to the some indicated. Not all Archons.

The wiki does not (nor does the comic) back up your assertion.

[Divusmors]

It wasn't asked of me, and again not the best of devices. My bad on that, I guess? I was pulling my remark from the veil section, not the archon section. There's also in comic, which cannot be edited by just anyone where rob has to see it and fix it, of Wanda unveiling a unit long before her mixes with other caster disciplines (no foolamancy) in the prequel.

[Razade]

It wasn't asked of me, and again not the best of devices. My bad on that, I guess? I was pulling my remark from the veil section, not the archon section. There's also in comic, which cannot be edited by just anyone where rob has to see it and fix it, of Wanda unveiling a unit long before her mixes with other caster disciplines (no foolamancy) in the prequel.

Wanda is a Commander. All Casters are Commanders. Casters count as Warlords but don't provide a Warlord bonus, except apparently Croakamancers who give a bonus to Uncroaked/Decrypted. I'd imagine that Dollamancers have a similar bonus but I don't think it's been stated they do.

[Mando Knight]

Wanda is a Commander. All Casters are Commanders. Casters count as Warlords but don't provide a Warlord bonus, except apparently Croakamancers who give a bonus to Uncroaked/Decrypted. I'd imagine that Dollamancers have a similar bonus but I don't think it's been stated they do.

Or Dirtamancers and their various golems. Casters in general probably have specific synergy/commander bonuses with units affiliated with their discipline.

[Razade]

Or Dirtamancers and their various golems. Casters in general probably have specific synergy/commander bonuses with units affiliated with their discipline.

Indeed. Either way, Commanders seem to have some natural ability to sense Veils if they're in the same hex as the Veiled. Foolamancers seem to have (which makes sense) even more abilities in this vein.

[-D-]

As I said, theoretically - Charlie could have Archons that don't see through veils and/or had their only veil busting unit on call.

The problem is - Why in the ever loving Erfcrap, would he do that? The explanation requires Charlie to hold a massive idiot ball. Meaning, his high level enforcers have no Veil units, to deal with various Casters including Foolamancers or to not prepare for Parson a side with know Decrypted Foolamancer.

[Doran]

Remember the Archons were primed to shoot Parson as soon as he entered the gate anyway - as seen by their commanders reaction to being notified by Charlie.

I could see it as being a split second panic reaction of an apparently non-allied warlord (no stats) that they've wanting to kill anyway. If they had 5 seconds to see Parson beforehand they might have worked out he was under a veil.

I think that while Archon's "True Seeing" can let them see through veils, it STILL isn't an automatic "this unit is on your side" detector. I do think they can also see the illusion itself AS WELL AS the person underneath it. So they'd only be going off of Parson's signamancy that he's even part of Charlescomm in the first place.

Jack's illusion would never had stood up even for 5 seconds otherwise, but it confused the archons enough in a split second to panic fire. Alternatively Jack's illusion did nothing, and the archons assumed he was dressed in Charlescomm signamancy to confuse them.

Or even, the Archons didn't have enough time to fully determine if Parson was part of Charlescomm wearing a Gobwin Knob veil (bizarrely pointless and unexpected) or if he was part of GK wearing a CC veil - much more likely given his tactics.

[Aquillion]

As I said, theoretically - Charlie could have Archons that don't see through veils and/or had their only veil busting unit on call.

The problem is - Why in the ever loving Erfcrap, would he do that? The explanation requires Charlie to hold a massive idiot ball. Meaning, his high level enforcers have no Veil units, to deal with various Casters including Foolamancers or to not prepare for Parson a side with know Decrypted Foolamancer.

He was juggling a huge number of things at the time, and hadn't expected this opportunity to happen at all until a few moments before it did. Plus his communications suddenly went down right as it happened, which further hampered him. So he dropped the ball on one part of his plan.

[Anteros]

It's still massively idiotic to assume Charlie has all these defenses set up around his portal and no way to see through veils as part of them. He can't possibly be that stupid, and if he is then there's no way we can continue to take him seriously as an antagonist.

[virgileso]

It's still massively idiotic to assume Charlie has all these defenses set up around his portal and no way to see through veils as part of them. He can't possibly be that stupid, and if he is then there's no way we can continue to take him seriously as an antagonist.

What if those defenses relied on a shocked connection for power? It's been established repeatedly that essentially everything he does hinges on full access to the Dish, which would include the shockamancy connection to the Portal.

[Anteros]

What if those defenses relied on a shocked connection for power? It's been established repeatedly that essentially everything he does hinges on full access to the Dish, which would include the shockamancy connection to the Portal.

You would still want your defensive troops in that situation to be able to see through them. Especially since it's extremely trivial for Charlie to assign units with that ability to that task.

[virgileso]

You would still want your defensive troops in that situation to be able to see through them. Especially since it's extremely trivial for Charlie to assign units with that ability to that task.

I feel that Doran was pretty thorough in explaining the troops side of the whole event, especially since Charlie's plans rarely rely on split-second decision making for these kinds of events.

[Douglas]

It's still massively idiotic to assume Charlie has all these defenses set up around his portal and no way to see through veils as part of them. He can't possibly be that stupid, and if he is then there's no way we can continue to take him seriously as an antagonist.

To prevent the blunder that happened, he would have needed to have every single one of the defenders see through the veil. They were tense, expecting an enemy Parson to come through at any moment, ready to fire instantly when he did. Even a single Archon failing to see through it - or just being on too much of a hair trigger to process "wait, that's the wrong livery" before pulling the trigger - would have been enough to make the blunder happen.

You would still want your defensive troops in that situation to be able to see through them. Especially since it's extremely trivial for Charlie to assign units with that ability to that task.

The Shocked connections going down was an extreme surprise brought about by a completely unanticipated internal attacker. It's a sufficiently bizarre scenario, requiring something previously believed to be impossible (remote repatriation) to make it happen, that Charlie having planned for it would be closer to paranoia than preparedness. Charlie has to plan for a great many things, and he has to prioritize based on both how important and how likely each thing is. He got blindsided by something he had believed was extremely unlikely.

[Aquillion]

It's still massively idiotic to assume Charlie has all these defenses set up around his portal and no way to see through veils as part of them. He can't possibly be that stupid, and if he is then there's no way we can continue to take him seriously as an antagonist.

My recollection is that those Archons aren't part of the normal defenses, and were moved there specifically because they thought Parson was about to invade.

[Razade]

As I said, theoretically - Charlie could have Archons that don't see through veils and/or had their only veil busting unit on call.

The problem is - Why in the ever loving Erfcrap, would he do that? The explanation requires Charlie to hold a massive idiot ball. Meaning, his high level enforcers have no Veil units, to deal with various Casters including Foolamancers or to not prepare for Parson a side with know Decrypted Foolamancer.

Because it's random when they pop and they get a lot of other abilities when they level. Making all your units have the same stats is a terrible idea in a game like Erfworld. You want to diversify, especially if you only ever pop one unit.

[-D-]

Because it's random when they pop and they get a lot of other abilities when they level. Making all your units have the same stats is a terrible idea in a game like Erfworld. You want to diversify, especially if you only ever pop one unit.

Right. But these are his high tier forces. His creme de la creme. He'd keep his high tier forces diversified. His forces meant to defend him against outside forces, and especially Parson. With Foolamancer.

You need to jump through some hoops to justify him not having two or more veil busting units.

[Razade]

Right. But these are his high tier forces. His creme de la creme. He'd keep his high tier forces diversified. His forces meant to defend him against outside forces, and especially Parson. With Foolamancer.

Most of these forces were popped before Parson was a thing. It's not like he popped an entirely new army as soon as Parson appeared. That means he's got a lot of diversified Archons (because Parson isn't his only problem) that he can't just disband. He only pops a small number a Turn and it takes XP to level them up. Which takes...time...time he doesn't have.

[-D-]

Most of these forces were popped before Parson was a thing. It's not like he popped an entirely new army as soon as Parson appeared. That means he's got a lot of diversified Archons (because Parson isn't his only problem) that he can't just disband. He only pops a small number a Turn and it takes XP to level them up. Which takes...time...time he doesn't have.

True. However, he has a lot of reach, and a lot of Archons. Are you saying that among all his many Archons there aren't at least two that can see through a cheap baffle? I found that implausible.

Even if there are low level Foolamancer Archons, I don't see Charlie forgetting to promote two or more such Archons to guard his tower. Especially since GK and Parson utilized their Foolamancer to its fullest.

[Lethologica]

The issue isn't the number of Archons who could see through the veil, it's the number who couldn't. Having diversified forces doesn't solve this.

[Douglas]

Two Archons who could see through the veil would have had no more effect in restraining the rest than Bonnie, who had information straight from Charlie about what was really happening, did. They opened fire before anyone had a chance to tell them not to.

[Binks]

...Did the veil even do anything with the Archons though? Their orders were, specifically noted in the comic, 'fire on sight of Parson'. None of their orders were conditional on Parson not being a CC unit, presumably because the idea of Parson becoming a CC unit had never entered into Charlie's possible plans. They were 'shoot to kill Parson when you see him', not 'shoot to kill Parson when you see him, unless he's friendly'.

IRL soldiers who could see friend/foe status on sight would probably not open up on a friendly even if their orders told them to (but mistakes could happen in a spur of the moment thing), but this is Erfworld, where orders are absolute.

All I can see the veil did was make it look (to the MK) like a GK unit stepped through CC's portal and was fired upon (making GK's situation worse).

Relevant comics:
Description of Operation Big Game - http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%2B3/107
"Big Game rules stay in effect. Priority is capturing Parson...Secondary priority is killing him, but only if we can claim or destroy the body." (none of Big Game's orders were conditional on Parson's allegiance, and 'unit of CC' does not equal 'captive' in Erfworld terms, though it could be assumed potentially)

Archons were going to fire on Parson the moment he came into sight - http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/117
(note the lack of any 'unless he's in CC livery' in that order, it's literally 'Parson is coming through the portal, fire on sight')

In the comic (120) where Parson steps through CC's portal it's made clear that none of the Archons were aware that their standing 'kill on sight' orders were rescinded.

It's less 'oh no, a GK unit stepped through the portal, open fire' split second decision and more 'hey look, the person we were specifically ordered to shoot the moment he stepped through the portal just stepped through, open fire'. Probably wouldn't be the first time in Erfworld history a poorly setup standing order got a friendly unit attacked...

[deuterio12]

...Did the veil even do anything with the Archons though? Their orders were, specifically noted in the comic, 'fire on sight of Parson'. None of their orders were conditional on Parson not being a CC unit, presumably because the idea of Parson becoming a CC unit had never entered into Charlie's possible plans.

Capturing Hamster was part of Charlie's plans ever since book 1.

The contract after the Stanley vs Jillian battle also had as ultimate goal to capture Hamster, by driving GK into so much debt they would need to hand over their perfect warlord.

You even point it out yourself:

Description of Operation Big Game - http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%2B3/107
"Big Game rules stay in effect. Priority is capturing Parson...Secondary priority is killing him, but only if we can claim or destroy the body." (none of Big Game's orders were conditional on Parson's allegiance, and 'unit of CC' does not equal 'captive' in Erfworld terms, though it could be assumed potentially)

Main priority is explicitly getting Hamster in one piece, killing was plan B.

In the comic (120) where Parson steps through CC's portal it's made clear that none of the Archons were aware that their standing 'kill on sight' orders were rescinded.

It's less 'oh no, a GK unit stepped through the portal, open fire' split second decision and more 'hey look, the person we were specifically ordered to shoot the moment he stepped through the portal just stepped through, open fire'. Probably wouldn't be the first time in Erfworld history a poorly setup standing order got a friendly unit attacked...

This is Charlie we're talking about. He micros almost everything and the arkendish allows him to quickly update orders to his minions. He's supposed to be doing this for countless turns. Ordering Hamster to go through while forgeting to warn his true seeing archons to hold fire would be like Stanley cracking his own skull with the arkenhammer.

[-D-]

The issue isn't the number of Archons who could see through the veil, it's the number who couldn't. Having diversified forces doesn't solve this.

Thing with Foolamancy is, if one sees through ruse -all see through ruse.

...Did the veil even do anything with the Archons though? Their orders were, specifically noted in the comic, 'fire on sight of Parson'.
IRL soldiers who could see friend/foe status on sight would probably not open up on a friendly even if their orders told them to (but mistakes could happen in a spur of the moment thing), but this is Erfworld, where orders are absolute.
...
All I can see the veil did was make it look (to the MK) like a GK unit stepped through CC's portal and was fired upon (making GK's situation worse).
...
Relevant comics:
Description of Operation Big Game - http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%2B3/107
"Big Game rules stay in effect. Priority is capturing Parson...Secondary priority is killing him,

You contradicted yourself. Archons primary orders were capture Parson. Jack's baffle just changed his livery, not his appearance.

Furthermore, they were expecting Parson attack.