Erfworld Thread X: A Series of Unfortunate Cliffhangers

[Douglas]

He's worried about losing one of the gems if he says too much. Going over the list of penalties, that means he's worried it might count as breaking the truce. I... think that would be quite a stretch of interpretation of the contract. The wording forbids "material harm", and goes on to specify to units, cities, property, or other assets. No CharlesComm units, cities, or property are in any possible danger here. I could see Charlie considering his hold on his secrets to qualify as "other assets", but if so Bonnie talking to the Great Minds would have triggered penalties.

Best (in character) explanation I can come up with is that Parson's memory is a bit hazy on the details (it is a four page document of legalese, after all) and he's wary and cautious after having been outplayed by Charlie so many times.

As for Jack, his deal was described as "The Deal of a Lifetime", and was presumably worded appropriately - the deal itself specified that it would last until he croaked. He has now croaked, so that deal is over. That he effectively came back to life afterward was not a possibility the deal considered or accounted for.

[eschmenk]

Ok, most of this is besides the point so I'm going to ignore it. All this brings us back to my original point of WHY IS PARSON WORRIED ABOUT BEING PENALIZED FOR SAYING HE WANTS INFORMATION ON CHARLIE?

I think the idea is that what information Parson wants to know is closely related to why he wants to know it and saying anything about the why part would trigger a penalty. Yes, he could (and did) say what he wanted to know (information about the traps and portal) without incurring a penalty. However, he couldn't say that the contract would let him trigger payments by sending expendable units through the portal to set off those traps. I think Rob played that up a bit too much, though.

Granted, this seems rather weak, but maybe Parson was worried that even if Parson limited himself to what he wanted to know, it would be so easy for Roger to figure out the basics of the contract terms from that information that a payment would be triggered. The thing is that there have been a number of examples where people deduced some aspects of the contract without a penalty being charged, so it's not clear why Parson was particularly worried this time.

He's worried about losing one of the gems if he says too much. Going over the list of penalties, that means he's worried it might count as breaking the truce. I... think that would be quite a stretch of interpretation of the contract. [snip]

I realize that violating nondisclosure is supposed to cost a city instead of smuckers, but IMO the text made it sound as if a nondisclosure violation was what Parson was worrying about. I don't trust my memory, but I don't think this would be the first time it seemed that a nondisclosure violation would have penalty of smuckers, rather than a city, despite what the text of the contract actually says. Maybe the contract has been retconjured in Rob's mind? Also, it seems that a city, especially since the other side gets to choose which one, is a ridiculously high penalty to pay.

I guess it could be that Parson was worrying about a break of the truce, but as you said that seems like a huge stretch. Could the contract be interpreted so that an attempt to invade CC begins as soon as Parson asks for the necessary information to plan it? Granted, no penalty occurred, but that seems like nothing Parson should have even been worried about.

Best (in character) explanation I can come up with is that Parson's memory is a bit hazy on the details (it is a four page document of legalese, after all) and he's wary and cautious after having been outplayed by Charlie so many times.

Or maybe Parson is worrying excessively because he's already nervous about more-or-less giving GK's entire treasury to TV?

[guttering flame]

Ok, most of this is besides the point so I'm going to ignore it. All this brings us back to my original point of WHY IS PARSON WORRIED ABOUT BEING PENALIZED FOR SAYING HE WANTS INFORMATION ON CHARLIE?

It's either a part of the deal, or it's not. So either it's bad writing earlier where Bonnie gave out all the information without penalty, or it's bad writing now because rules against sharing that kind of information was never part of the deal. I agree with you that it's not part of the deal, but it seems like Rob forgot what the deal actually entails when he wrote this.

Maybe Parson doesn't remember the contract word for word. After the fiasco in portal park he became paranoid about hidden consequences from the contract. If he heard about Charlie conversation with Wanda he'd run around screaming right now.

[Anteros]

Maybe you're all right and he's just not clear on the contract. It's pretty irresponsible of him if that's the case, but ultimately it's a pretty nit-picky complaint on my part anyway.

[DigoDragon]

The "---" marking the scene change is right there after the image, so if it weren't for the presence of the image in precisely the right location to mask the scene change, it'd probably be fine.

Yeah, the image is poorly placed because the dashes didn't even register to me until much later.

Maybe you're all right and he's just not clear on the contract. It's pretty irresponsible of him if that's the case, but ultimately it's a pretty nit-picky complaint on my part anyway.

I dunno, I was thinking that question myself. I thought 'Perfect Warlord' meant he'd of found a loop hole ages ago on this contract. Loop holes was this thing back in Book 1. :3

[Doran]

Maybe you're all right and he's just not clear on the contract. It's pretty irresponsible of him if that's the case, but ultimately it's a pretty nit-picky complaint on my part anyway.

Well, he doesn't have a photographic memory. Does he have his eyebook / notebook on him, or is that back at GK?

[eschmenk]

Well, he doesn't have a photographic memory. Does he have his eyebook / notebook on him, or is that back at GK?

Parson has his flower journal (Lookmancy-proof notebook given by Janis) with him. I'm not sure he can write down any notes about the contract, though. If he did write down notes at the time, they wouldn't be in the flower journal because he didn't have it yet.

https://wiki.erfworld.com/Declaratio...nd_Gobwin_Knob

neither Party may disclose the details, conditions, or terms of the agreement, in whole or in part, to any unit not of that Party's own side, nor may they copy or transmit these terms and conditions in writing, by any means.

Would that keep Parson from writing any notes about it, even if he doesn't show anyone else?

[Anteros]

Well, he doesn't have a photographic memory. Does he have his eyebook / notebook on him, or is that back at GK?

You shouldn't need a photographic memory to memorize one page of text if your life literally depends on it. Especially when he doesn't even seem to recall what the contract does or does not entail. It doesn't need to be word for word.

If nothing else he should just be able to ask another unit like Jack or Maggie given their ability to sense whether or not certain actions will hurt the side.

[eschmenk]

If nothing else he should just be able to ask another unit like Jack or Maggie given their ability to sense whether or not certain actions will hurt the side.

Are you sure Jack or Maggie have that ability? Lilith obviously didn't.

Duty would affect them, but I don't think that's sufficient. A unit's duty keeps them from hurting their side intentionally, but AFAIK it doesn't keep them from making a mistake. Duty applies to Parson, so he wouldn't need to ask about that. He (well, Benjamin, actually) could ask his bracer, though.

[Anteros]

Are you sure Jack or Maggie have that ability? Lilith obviously didn't.

Duty would affect them, but I don't think that's sufficient. A unit's duty keeps them from hurting their side intentionally, but AFAIK it doesn't keep them from making a mistake. Duty applies to Parson, so he wouldn't need to ask about that. He (well, Benjamin, actually) could ask his bracer, though.

Well, the dirtamancer and dollmancer somehow knew how to avoid breaking the contract when interacting with Charlie's units, despite having no way of even knowing it existed. There's some sort of mechanic there.

Or maybe it's just more inconsistent writing.

[Xihirli]

Well, archons don't have a treasury sense, so maybe a treasury and treaty sense are linked in some way.

[eschmenk]

Well, the dirtamancer and dollmancer somehow knew how to avoid breaking the contract when interacting with Charlie's units, despite having no way of even knowing it existed. There's some sort of mechanic there.

Or maybe it's just more inconsistent writing.

I don't think so. Somehow Claud knew about the truce and ruled out harming the action figure immediately after they were decrypted. It didn't seem that a mechanic was responsible because he wasn't completely certain. He knew that it depended on whether or not they had been croaked long enough for the contract to have expired, but he wasn't sure of that. The only way I can think to explain that is that they were told about the non-aggression contract as agents of CC. It makes some sense that they needed to know that if they harmed GK units, CC would incur a penalty. Granted, there wasn't an indication that Ivan knew already during the battle in portal park.

[Doran]

Charlie also might have told them the full details because he planned to use them in some future scheme against Charlescomm, and without decryption there was no way they'd work for Goblin Knob

[Anteros]

Charlie couldn't have told them about it before they turned because he can't tell 3rd parties about the terms without incurring a penalty. You linked that bit earlier yourself eshmenk.

He also couldn't have told them about it after they turned because we saw everything he said to them between turning and them being killed, and it was only like 5 words that had nothing to do with the truce. They died pretty much immediately.

http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/210


It's either that casters have some sort of innate sense about whatever treaty their side is under, or Rob just forgot they didn't know when he wrote it. At least that's all I can think of.

[Doran]

Charlie couldn't have told them about it before they turned because he can't tell 3rd parties about the terms without incurring a penalty. You linked that bit earlier yourself eshmenk.

He also couldn't have told them about it after they turned because we saw everything he said to them between turning and them being killed, and it was only like 5 words that had nothing to do with the truce. They died pretty much immediately.

http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/210


It's either that casters have some sort of innate sense about whatever treaty their side is under, or Rob just forgot they didn't know when he wrote it. At least that's all I can think of.

Maybe... he told them before or as he was negotiating the truce contract, so they knew before it came into effect.

[Anteros]

Maybe... he told them before or as he was negotiating the truce contract, so they knew before it came into effect.

That seems very unlikely considering how spur of the moment the truce was, and how closely Charlie keeps his secrets. I'll concede that it's possible though.

[eschmenk]

Charlie couldn't have told them about it before they turned because he can't tell 3rd parties about the terms without incurring a penalty. You linked that bit earlier yourself eshmenk.

Yes, I know about that. I assume that it wasn't a problem, though. Perhaps, as agents, they count as being on the same side for the purposes of confidentiality. Perhaps Charlie communicated enough information for them to figure it out without saying too much. Perhaps carnymancy was somehow involved. I don't know why it wasn't a problem; it just didn't seem to be one and I wouldn't expect it to be one. I would find it hard to believe that Charlie would write a contract that could result in agents costing him schmuckers and him being unable to tell his agents to not do the things that trigger those costs.

I suppose another possibility is that freshly decrypted units are given an initial brain-dump of information so they can be effective immediately. In that case, it would be a bit odd that Claud wouldn't have known whether or not the contract was still in effect, though.

If you don't like my idea, do you have any ideas that would explain Claud's behavior on that page that would be consistent with their being a game mechanic informing Claud?

I didn't mention it earlier, but the conversation on this page also seems inconsistent with your idea that there is a game mechanic. There Claud and Ivan are having to ask each other if something would count or not and they seem to be using their own expertise to figure it out, rather than relying on a game mechanic. I don't think Maggie or Jack would have more expertise regarding the costs of confidentiality violations (what we were originally talking about) than Claud had regarding what dirtamancy tricks might trigger penalties. If a mechanic wasn't telling Claud what he wanted to know, why would it tell Maggie or Jack what Parson needed to know?

[Anteros]

No, I'm not going to sit here and try to reason out a completely proven and internally consistent way they could know everything because my entire point was that there might not be one. You've offered an explanation that makes no sense and asked me to either prove an alternative or accept it. It wouldn't be the first time Rob forgot something or messed something up. Heck, there's even an entire canon brand of magic in Erfworld to cover for mistakes like that.

"Maybe they count as part of Charlie's side despite explicitly not being part of Charlie's side" is not a compelling argument. I'm honestly not even going to take the time to point out the holes in that reasoning.

Also, the page you linked is Claud asking for clarification of different Dirtamancy things and what would count as an attack. It had literally nothing to do with him not being aware of the contract terms. He's not asking because he doesn't know the contract. He's asking because he doesn't know Dirtamancy.

[eschmenk]

No, I'm not going to sit here and try to reason out a completely proven and internally consistent way they could know everything because my entire point was that there might not be one. You've offered an explanation that makes no sense and asked me to either prove an alternative or accept it. It wouldn't be the first time Rob forgot something or messed something up. Heck, there's even an entire canon brand of magic in Erfworld to cover for mistakes like that.

My explanation makes perfect sense.

"Maybe they count as part of Charlie's side despite explicitly not being part of Charlie's side" is not a compelling argument. I'm honestly not even going to take the time to point out the holes in that reasoning.

It obviously wasn't written to be a compelling argument. It was just one of several possibilities.

Also, the page you linked is Claud asking for clarification of different Dirtamancy things and what would count as an attack. It had literally nothing to do with him not being aware of the contract terms. He's not asking because he doesn't know the contract. He's asking because he doesn't know Dirtamancy.

Somehow I missed the fact that you switched from talking about an "ability to sense whether or not certain actions will hurt the side" to "some sort of innate sense about whatever treaty their side is under." I was still arguing against the first one.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

New strip!

Spoiler

Show

Welp, another caster is added to the Isaac Fire.

[Doran]

Spoiler

Show

Another reminder that Wanda is not a nice or particularly sane person

[-D-]

Spoiler

Show

Another reminder that Wanda is not a nice or particularly sane person

New comic: Wanda is an a-hole.

In other news: The water is wet.

[guttering flame]

Hey! Wanda is a cool Player.

Dollamancer is an aware meat puppet NPC with low loyalty stats.

For the Mistress!

[-D-]

Hey! Wanda is a cool Player.

Dollamancer is an aware meat puppet NPC with low loyalty stats.

For the Mistress!

Wanda is working on alienating as many other people as she can. Which I guess is good for Parson/GK. Lots of defectors.

[eschmenk]

Rob got a lot of use out of Kafka quotes.

[DigoDragon]

Wanda is working on alienating as many other people as she can. Which I guess is good for Parson/GK. Lots of defectors.

Also, linking up may expose her personal secrets to Isaac and she probably doesn't want that.

[lord_khaine]

Wanda is working on alienating as many other people as she can. Which I guess is good for Parson/GK. Lots of defectors.

The alienating part hardly matters when its done by pushing people off a cliff..

And yeah its a jerk move, Wanda has shown to care even less about those under her command than regular Rulers.

Also, linking up may expose her personal secrets to Isaac and she probably doesn't want that.

I suspect she mainly dont want to because that linking seems to be permanent. And involve a large loss of personal identity.

[-D-]

I suspect she mainly dont want to because that linking seems to be permanent. And involve a large loss of personal identity.

It does? Both Ivan and DeIsaac have distinct speaking voices. What I suspect is that detangling DeIsaac and caster reeks of death.

[DigoDragon]

It does? Both Ivan and DeIsaac have distinct speaking voices. What I suspect is that detangling DeIsaac and caster reeks of death.

I'm under the impression that joining up isn't any more permanent than usual caster links are, but it's decoupling the casters that'll become messy for deIsaac since he's not a 'single' caster anymore. Reeking of death indeed.

[guttering flame]

I'm under the impression that joining up isn't any more permanent than usual caster links are, but it's decoupling the casters that'll become messy for deIsaac since he's not a 'single' caster anymore. Reeking of death indeed.

Also, no Thinkalikes to safely decouple the link. Only Maggie, Bunny and Traitorjudge.